CWMU?

andrew12gauge

Active Member
Messages
783
Just curious, do any CWMU?s contain public land that is not landlocked? I was looking at an area on OnX with the CWMU layer on and it was showing public lands as part of the CWMU and I'm not real familiar with the rules pertaining to those areas
 
There are definitely cwmu's that have "public" included. I dont agree with it, especially if it is not land locked. I too came across a piece of land that on a paper map shows state land. But with onX it shows as part of a cwmu. Very tricky.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-19 AT 12:27PM (MST)[p]Do any CWMU?s contain public land that is not landlocked?

Yes.
Middle Ridge is good example. The private land they exchange for the public is a lousy unbalanced trade in my opinion. The CWMU is definitely gaining the advantage on that one.

It is never fun to see a "Welcome to Your Public Lands" sign with the CWMU sign tagged to fence right next to it.
 
I was really hoping that it was just OnX maps being lousy on those boundaries but that is a real bummer. It's really too bad that for such a great outdoor recreation state Utah has to have all the bad public lands policies
 
Generally speaking, all public lands inside CWMU boundaries can be used by the public for general recreation, but not for hunting the species that the CWMU is registered for. Now if the property is landlocked, you'd have to get permission from the landowner to cross the private and get to the public.


2a0fcsk.gif
 
Anybody from Utah ever looked at changing this public land inclusion. It is one of the best examples Wyoming residents use to Not set up a CWMU type system. CWMUs seem like a win-win system but not if they are including public accessible lands. I understand landlocked parcels are off limits but any accessible public lands should never be included in these CWMUs. I know this was court challenged in Utah but has anybody recently made an effort through DWR or your wildlife commission to get this changed? I always get this example from Wyoming residents pushing back why they don’t want a CWMU style set up in Wyoming. Ideas?
 
Unfortunately there are many CWMUs that have ample accessible public land that is off limits to the public. It is total BS in my opinion and I don’t understand the logic behind the state keeping the public from accessing these public lands that should belong to the public and not the CWMU.

My son had a doe antelope tag last December. Deseret Land and Livestock posted public/blm land that could be accessed without trespassing on “their property but unfortunately we were out of luck and unable to step foot on the public land that was right next to the highway. Somehow the antelope knew that and hung tight on that public land that was claimed by the CWMU.
 
Yea Deseret is a huge checkerboard, the ole boys knew what they were doing, buy a few sections and get a few free,plus they probably love the fact that the blm sections get eaten by their live stock and it doesn’t cost them a nickel
 
Yea Deseret is a huge checkerboard, the ole boys knew what they were doing, buy a few sections and get a few free,plus they probably love the fact that the blm sections get eaten by their live stock and it doesn’t cost them a nickel

Checkerboard is landlocked but there is one big public contiguous parcel along the highway which shouldn’t be included in the CWMU. Desert L&L pays to graze those BLM lands.
 
The main argument for including public land in the cwmus when the program was first set up was making the boundaries easier to enforce. (Not adding more acres to be eligible for a cwmu or more tags) eyeroll.
With everyone having onx now I think that strategy should be revisited.
But it will be a challenge I'm sure.
 
Having any publicly accessible lands would never float in Wyoming. What are Utah hunters doing to try and get this changed? Seems like at a minimum your sportsmen’s groups should be bringing this up to the DWR, legislature or Wildlife commission. I still think the CWMU concept can be a win-win for all parties if set up properly and managed properly. There are great examples like Deseret, Heaston and Alton ranch to name a few. The youth hunts offered on these private ranches in my opinion are the most important part of enrolling these large ranches, barring locking up publicly accessible lands. I hear lots of complaints here but see nor hear no action.
 
I served on the CWMU advisory committee as the sportsman representative for 6 years and had this discussion more times than I could count. In fact, this rule was the main reason for me joining the committee. Unfortunately, not everyone shares the same opinion for many different reasons. Land owners complain that the small chunks of public land that border private are the cause of trespassing and violation on private land. There's always some kind of an excuse. The funny thing is the rule states that a CWMU may include public land to "Create a more definable boundary". My argument to this is if private land owners can take public land to create more definable boundary, why can't the public take small chunks of private land to create a more definable public boundary? It's a very poor decision by the state to pass this law. It confuses sportsmen and takes away public opportunity. Yes, the CWMUs give extra tags or trade lands in exchange, but the trade off is not worth it in almost ALL cases. I have fought this battle with 3 different CWMU coordinators for the state and it has gone nowhere. If you want to see a really good example of this, take a look at the Alton ranch. I love Wade Heaton, he's a stud. However, his CWMU has claimed a TON of public land and I'm sure they kill lots of 200"+ bucks off of it every year. This is land that Paunsy guys could be hunting. That's only one example, but there are several. It's a very bad deal, but it won't change. Sportsman always get the short end of the stick when it comes to big businesses and money.
 
Here's an overlay I created that shows the BLM within the Alton unit. I believe the two biggest sections are accessible from other public lands, but due to this rule, none of it is accessible.

Alton BLM.jpg
 
Here's a map of Deseret. The big chunk of BLM land South of the Highway is all accessible, but due to the rule no longer accessible for hunting big game.

Deseret BLM Land.jpg
 
Here's one more map of the Middle Ridge / Woodruff Creek BLM. All of this is accessible from a public road or by boat. However, due to this rule, is no longer huntable.

Woodruff Creek BLM Land.jpg
 
That’s horsechit, the CWMU already get the better end of that deal. I’m for CWMU, but that’s BS.

Thanks for the insider scoop and displaying the BS with that fatal system. This is why it is a hard sell in Wyoming as nobody wants things like this to happen. This would certainly never be allowed to happen in Wyoming but regretfully it is slow and difficult just trying to get movement on a CWMU type program up here. I see it as a win-win but many up here see it as an outfitter handout. What I like about Utah’s system is the outfitters do primarily all of their guiding on Limited Entry and CWMU areas whereas up here it’s 90% in General license areas. Imagine hunting the Wasatch Front with 10 different outfitter camps up there. This is what it is becoming in Wyoming. I see the CWMUs as a way to get outfitters to paired up with landowners and have a guaranteed stream of income and get them off the General license areas which are becoming zoos, at least by Wyoming standards.
 
Pretty nice perk being able to offer high power rifle hunts from September to November, when all you have to give up is a small percentage of tags to the resident public. Especially when many of the CWMU’s treat the public hunter that drew the tag as a nuisance. There are many issues with the program, most of which I can live with, but them locking up significant portions of public land and use the excuse it helps with boundaries is an absolute joke. I have On X, paired with google earth, and can tell you exactly where property lines are. Honestly that’s pretty insulting to the public Hunter, and something we absolutely should not stand for. That being said there are some very well ran cwmu’s in the program, but they are damned few.
 
Pretty nice perk being able to offer high power rifle hunts from September to November, when all you have to give up is a small percentage of tags to the resident public. Especially when many of the CWMU’s treat the public hunter that drew the tag as a nuisance. There are many issues with the program, most of which I can live with, but them locking up significant portions of public land and use the excuse it helps with boundaries is an absolute joke. I have On X, paired with google earth, and can tell you exactly where property lines are. Honestly that’s pretty insulting to the public Hunter, and something we absolutely should not stand for. That being said there are some very well ran cwmu’s in the program, but they are damned few.

“Especially when many of the CWMU’s treat the public hunter that drew the tag as a nuisance.” Any personal experience with them or just a general statement. Supposedly the State CWMU coordinator is supposed to investigate these public hunter hunts to ensure they are treated equitable and fairly. I know for a fact many years the best bulls on Deseret were taken by public hunters whom the guides appreciated hunting with as they were lean and hungry and hunted harder than any of the paying clients. Just trying to ascertain any pitfalls if we could ever get one going up here in a Wyoming. We would want to fix many of these pitfalls and mistakes. I am also reaching out to Colorado guys whom have said similar things.
 
I’ve hunted 3 CWMUs. 2 public 1 private. No complaints
Thanks for the feedback. Did you feel like you were free to select hunt dates and the whole ranch or were you assigned which times and dates and which part of the ranch you could hunt? Just trying to gauge how accessible the public tags are in relation to the paying customers?
 
I asked for a time frame which they accepted in all three instances. I was given recommendations on where would be the most likely place for me to find what I was after
 
It all depends on the CWMU and the operator. Some are great and some are terrible. On the committee, we heard several complaints and always took actions. Some operators get it, and some dont. Some just can't get over the fact that a public guy can only pay $40 and hunt his property. What they dont understand is that 12 deer points are worth a lot more than the price of a tag. It balances out, but guides and outfitters dont like the average Joe taking out big money bucks and bulls. It's not a perfect program, and there are lots of problem CWMUs. However, there are positive experiences as well.
 
It’s not only CWMU’s. We where hunting on public land unit. Some guys with land owner permits. Where able to hunt the private land as well as 11/2 miles on to the public land. Of course I saw them two miles up the mountain trying to push the elk back down to other hunters in the 11/2 zone.
 
Thanks for the feedback. Did you feel like you were free to select hunt dates and the whole ranch or were you assigned which times and dates and which part of the ranch you could hunt? Just trying to gauge how accessible the public tags are in relation to the paying customers?
I don’t think even the paying guys all get the hunt dates they want, or get to hunt just anywhere they want on the property. Not everyone gets to hunt the biggest buck on opening day.
 
I don’t think even the paying guys all get the hunt dates they want, or get to hunt just anywhere they want on the property. Not everyone gets to hunt the biggest buck on opening day.

Maybe a more equitable way to do it would be to have a sign up sheet and a drawing. Say you had 8 paying tags and 2 public tags for 10 total independent hunters. The hunts could be divided up into one week hunts from Sept. to Nov. and everybody could signup for which date they want. If nobody wants that week you get it. If there are multiple requests for a certain week you have a drawing all administered by an independent agent maybe the CWMU wildlife coordinator or someone similar. What should happen here are the public tags should be as valuable as the paying tags or the system isn’t equitable. Just one way of trying to remedy Utah’s failed system and sell it to my fellow hunters in Wyoming as a win-win program. The public land inclusion is a big show stopper and would never float in Wyoming. Just trying to get ideas and feedback. Thanks all.
 
It is my understanding that CWMU operators may close off portions of the CWMU boundary to hunting, but if they do, it has to be closed to ALL hunting equally. They can’t allow pay hunters/clients to go somewhere that they don’t allow state draw hunters to go. If they are closing areas to everyone equally, I’ve got no problem with that. If they are only doing it for state draw hunters, that needs to be reported.

I’m not one that complains that paying clients get first crack early in the year. The “pick your week” works for a CWMU with 10 tags. But that is not what the vast majority of CWMUs have. And most are way higher than 10 total. Some are in the hundreds. They could still be spread out, but I don’t think that’s necessary. People need to know what is going on before putting in for CWMU hunts. Most information is obtainable prior to applying with just a little leg work. If you didn’t do your homework, I have little sympathy. CWMU hunts are not for everyone. Buyer (or applier) beware.

I agree with what HBJ says above: some of these operators are great, some are okay, some are terrible. The terrible ones need to be reported every time and hopefully they’ll get kicked out of the program.
 
Nearly every time I hear someone complain about the dates they got, the type of animals they saw, or anything else, almost without fail they didn't call the operator prior to applying for the tag. They looked at draw odds, and just went for it.
 
Nearly every time I hear someone complain about the dates they got, the type of animals they saw, or anything else, almost without fail they didn't call the operator prior to applying for the tag. They looked at draw odds, and just went for it.

But it's a CWMU! Shouldn't that guarantee me a 170 inch buck?
 
Nearly every time I hear someone complain about the dates they got, the type of animals they saw, or anything else, almost without fail they didn't call the operator prior to applying for the tag. They looked at draw odds, and just went for it.

While I totally agree with you, there are some other issues I have seen with "Contacting the operator". Many of the operators won't answer calls from random hunters, and if they do they can be very rude, and even try to talk you out of applying for the CWMU. I have called several just as a survey to see what they would say and I can tell you that lots of them hate talking to potential state hunter. We had one issue come up with the committee where a cow elk hunter tried to get a hold of the operator for 2 months prior to the hunt. He called over 20 times and left at least 5 messages. The hunt finally came and went and he never heard from the operator so he filed a complaint. The operator told the committee in front of about 40 people that he didn't have time to deal with state hunters and that it was annoying for all of them to constantly call him. He was put on probation, but is now back in business. He's one of the many crooked operators that need a swift kick in the junk. But like I said before, there are definitely some good ones out there. Call them up and see how they treat you on the phone. That is at least a good indicator of how you will be treated if you draw.

I called one guy last year and he told me Cougars had killed all the deer on the CWMU and there was nothing left. He said I would be lucky to find a 2pt. If that were true, I think the DWR would need to get involved and shut it down for deer for a few years. I know it was a flat out lie. I know the area and there are plenty of nice bucks.

The guys calling with $8,000 get a much better response than the guys with $40
 
While I totally agree with you, there are some other issues I have seen with "Contacting the operator". Many of the operators won't answer calls from random hunters, and if they do they can be very rude, and even try to talk you out of applying for the CWMU. I have called several just as a survey to see what they would say and I can tell you that lots of them hate talking to potential state hunter. We had one issue come up with the committee where a cow elk hunter tried to get a hold of the operator for 2 months prior to the hunt. He called over 20 times and left at least 5 messages. The hunt finally came and went and he never heard from the operator so he filed a complaint. The operator told the committee in front of about 40 people that he didn't have time to deal with state hunters and that it was annoying for all of them to constantly call him. He was put on probation, but is now back in business. He's one of the many crooked operators that need a swift kick in the junk. But like I said before, there are definitely some good ones out there. Call them up and see how they treat you on the phone. That is at least a good indicator of how you will be treated if you draw.

I called one guy last year and he told me Cougars had killed all the deer on the CWMU and there was nothing left. He said I would be lucky to find a 2pt. If that were true, I think the DWR would need to get involved and shut it down for deer for a few years. I know it was a flat out lie. I know the area and there are plenty of nice bucks.

The guys calling with $8,000 get a much better response than the guys with $40

Yea that whole contact the operator seems to open ended benefitting the outfitter. It seems like the hunt coordinator should make all of these decisions and be a State funded position. If they have 10 tags for deer for example with 8 high paying permits and 2 public CWMU drawn tags then the state wildlife coordinator should be making decisions on who goes when, and where. There is far too much leeway given to these outfitter operators, this should be a state coordinator function. He could handle the selection, drawing and assigning of hunt dates and answer questions about the area. If the outfitter wanted an orientation that would be fine but the state coordinator would be there to umpire the process. I can see there are many pitfalls, and bad decisions Utah has made along the way which now bites them in the arse. Thanks for the feedback, very helpful. Now all I have to do is try and present a win-win program for Wyoming sportsmen a seemingly insurmountable task. This definitely could be a win win situation, just needs to be managed properly. Thanks again HJB for your experience and insight.
 
Yea that whole contact the operator seems to open ended benefitting the outfitter. It seems like the hunt coordinator should make all of these decisions and be a State funded position. If they have 10 tags for deer for example with 8 high paying permits and 2 public CWMU drawn tags then the state wildlife coordinator should be making decisions on who goes when, and where. There is far too much leeway given to these outfitter operators, this should be a state coordinator function. He could handle the selection, drawing and assigning of hunt dates and answer questions about the area. If the outfitter wanted an orientation that would be fine but the state coordinator would be there to umpire the process. I can see there are many pitfalls, and bad decisions Utah has made along the way which now bites them in the arse. Thanks for the feedback, very helpful. Now all I have to do is try and present a win-win program for Wyoming sportsmen a seemingly insurmountable task. This definitely could be a win win situation, just needs to be managed properly. Thanks again HJB for your experience and insight.
That would require a major, major hiring event. Any idea how many acres of CWMU there are in Utah? You would need someone that has a relatively intimate knowledge of each and every unit, possibly even one person per unit. The cost alone would make it impossible.
 
While I totally agree with you, there are some other issues I have seen with "Contacting the operator". Many of the operators won't answer calls from random hunters, and if they do they can be very rude, and even try to talk you out of applying for the CWMU. I have called several just as a survey to see what they would say and I can tell you that lots of them hate talking to potential state hunter. We had one issue come up with the committee where a cow elk hunter tried to get a hold of the operator for 2 months prior to the hunt. He called over 20 times and left at least 5 messages. The hunt finally came and went and he never heard from the operator so he filed a complaint. The operator told the committee in front of about 40 people that he didn't have time to deal with state hunters and that it was annoying for all of them to constantly call him. He was put on probation, but is now back in business. He's one of the many crooked operators that need a swift kick in the junk. But like I said before, there are definitely some good ones out there. Call them up and see how they treat you on the phone. That is at least a good indicator of how you will be treated if you draw.

I called one guy last year and he told me Cougars had killed all the deer on the CWMU and there was nothing left. He said I would be lucky to find a 2pt. If that were true, I think the DWR would need to get involved and shut it down for deer for a few years. I know it was a flat out lie. I know the area and there are plenty of nice bucks.

The guys calling with $8,000 get a much better response than the guys with $40
Yep, there are several turds in the pool so to speak. I'd love to see some harsher penalties for operators that abuse the system. That said, I'd file the complaints about the operator before I spent my points on a unit that has a shifty operator.
 
Bearpaw Outfitters

Experience world class hunting for mule deer, elk, cougar, bear, turkey, moose, sheep and more.

Wild West Outfitters

Hunt the big bulls, bucks, bear and cats in southern Utah. Your hunt of a lifetime awaits.

J & J Outfitters

Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, shiras moose and mountain lions.

Shane Scott Outfitting

Quality trophy hunting in Utah. Offering FREE Utah drawing consultation. Great local guides.

Utah Big Game Outfitters

Specializing in bighorn sheep, mule deer, elk, mountain goat, lions, bears & antelope.

Apex Outfitters

We offer experienced guides who hunt Elk, Mule Deer, Antelope, Sheep, Bison, Goats, Cougar, and Bear.

Urge 2 Hunt

We offer high quality hunts on large private ranches around the state, with landowner vouchers.

Allout Guiding & Outfitting

Offering high quality mule deer, elk, bear, cougar and bison hunts in the Book Cliffs and Henry Mtns.

Lickity Split Outfitters

General season and LE fully guided hunts for mule deer, elk, moose, antelope, lion, turkey, bear and coyotes.

Back
Top Bottom