Dedicated Hunter or Extra Bonus Point???

Muley_73

Very Active Member
Messages
2,395
Just curious how many of you out there think the state should continue the Dedicted Hunter Program? I have been in the program and while I enjoyed the added time afield I do not believe the added pressure is what our herds currently need.

I also understand that the DWR counts on those labor hours and it help with the budget. However I think there are better routes to continue to have the labor without adding pressure to our herds. One thought would be an extra bonus point for hrs worked. I believe the DWR could offer a program that would allowing you to give say 10 hrs of work a year for 4 years. After 4 years and 40 hrs you would receive an extra bonus point or preference point. I think you would have more participation than you do with DH and you would not have to cap it.

Well just my mind wandering late at night. Let's hear what you all think.
 

AWHOLELOTTABULL

Long Time Member
Messages
4,357
Now that's thinking outside the box there Mr Christensen! I like the idea. The only spin I would put on that is the project would have to be something substantial. Something that required some effort as well as blood sweat and tears. None of these projects of delivering proclamations or ride-alongs. I think you would have an unbelievable amount of people applying to enter the DH program if they started throwing out a bonus point for it.


It's always an adventure!!!
 

Camper_A1

Active Member
Messages
930
Not sure what your refering to as added pressure. There is a set number of archery, muzzleloader, and rifle permits available. The dedicated hunters are a percentage of those permits not above and beyond. If you check with the DWR their sucess rate is less than the general tag holders. The service hours equal a couple million dollars each year the division saves that could go toward wildlife. Sounds like a win for the DWR to me.
 

AspenAdventures

Very Active Member
Messages
2,888
I like the way you are thinking ouside the box. But, I think the Dedicated Hunters (DH) take very few deer. I know that the 4 people I am aware of in the program take almost 0 bucks. They have taken big bucks and now hold out or take nothing. So, with the current system the huning #'s stay the same and guys that have 15, 16, 17, 18 or more points dont feel like they have wasted their life waitinf for a limited entry hunt and then have some kid deliver a proc and pass them in the odds.

Just my two cents

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 

cannonball

Very Active Member
Messages
1,103
Either way would be good for wildlife. Not sure it is detrimental to the deer herd. I just think that all of the time should go towards enhancement for the deer and deer only.
 

Tree

Active Member
Messages
538
>Either way would be good for
>wildlife. Not sure it
>is detrimental to the deer
>herd. I just think
>that all of the time
>should go towards enhancement for
>the deer and deer only.
>

I agree. I'm not sure that taking DHs out of the field would solve much, but making the program funds and labor completely streamlined towards habitat improvement and other items pertinent to mule deer efforts makes a ton of sense. I'd wager that a lot of people would give more time and money if they knew it was directly benefitting mule deer in Utah.

http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 

one_dryboot

Long Time Member
Messages
4,778
I actually think the DH program helps the herd. every DH I know has killed very few deer and actually hunts less then if they only used one weapon. I've been in for 6 years and taken 0 deer and every year I've hunted less then a week combining all three hunts. I've taken 0 deer by choice and I can promise if I go back to one weapon I will hunt harder, hunt more days and I will kill more deer.
 

El_Matador

Active Member
Messages
294
I liked the DH program when it first came around. I think they got greedy with the hours and ruined a good thing. Now that the units are smaller there are even fewer benefits to it for most people. It's true that the DH'ers don't harvest many deer so that's not a concern. If by "added pressure" you mean the additional hunters in the field, I'm not sure that has much of an impact. The deer are being pressured during that time of year anyway.

They oughtta hold onto the DH program in some fashion. I've always liked the idea of just buying a second deer permit for 3-4 times the price. I think the DWR could use an extra $100 more than they can use a guy surveying fishermen for a few hours.
 

Muley_73

Very Active Member
Messages
2,395
Added pressure in terms of allowing more hunters to chase the deer around all three seasons. Whether they shot one or not they are putting pressure on the deer. Most DH types are not just driving the roads either. They are out pushing the canyons and peaks. Like I said I enjoyed the program, but added pressure is something the herds don't need right now.

Also do not agree with the set up now. If you keep the system the DH should be drawn after they draw a tag. One year at a time. If you draw a tag then you can put in for the DH draw on that unit. Once you complete the hours you get your tags. This year were they can just pick the unit they want to hunt is not a good system. IMO.

Either way I think an added bonus point system could generate labor hrs and money for the division without any negative effect on the herds.
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-11 AT 10:22AM (MST)[p]Im a nonresident, but would be much more willing to support deer in in Utah by buying a nonresident tag and bring dollars that way or even donations if they would get rid of the dedicated hunter program. Myself, my brother and at a different time my nephew have all had negative experiences being around dedicated hunters, in a nutshell, its just makes things too competetive and thats not the reason many of us love to hunt.
 
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elkun

Guest
muley 73, what you been smoking? you are up in the knight. you want t to take pressure off. get rid of out fitters, 90 day cwmu hunts.,,, the only thing the dwr has right and you want to get rid of it...
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
elkun- in my experences much of the pressure on public land deer hunts is from dedicated hunters, and I believe all this intense pressure results the a real lack of mature deer in the state of Utah. Many people, especially out of staters and young inexperienced hunters simply cannot compete.
 

Muley_73

Very Active Member
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2,395
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-11 AT 11:25AM (MST)[p]Elk,
Man I wish I was up smoking something. After awhile I'd probably quit worrying about most of this stuff!!!!!

Go ahead and keep the program, but I think the Bonus Point system could be added to it. Also I think you could get more participation if you let the extra bonus point be for the species of choice.
 

Tree

Active Member
Messages
538
>
>Also do not agree with the
>set up now. If
>you keep the system the
>DH should be drawn after
>they draw a tag.
>One year at a time.
>If you draw a tag
>then you can put in
>for the DH draw on
>that unit. Once you
>complete the hours you get
>your tags. This year
>were they can just pick
>the unit they want to
>hunt is not a good
>system. IMO.
>

I agree. Make the fees/hours higher and let people choose to participate after the hunt. It's an addendum to a general season tag that designates one as a DH.

I like this idea and wouldn't be surprised to see it implemented in the near future.

DH for the most part is a trophy tag, which is fine. Often times DHers are hunters that are typically more seasoned and therefor probably more efficient. These are the types of folks that if they weren't selective, they'd probably kill every year, because they are...uh....dedicated. But instead, because of their position in the grand hunting progression, they are looking for a large antlered animal and are willing to forgo harvest in lieu of the chance to spend more time in the field and seek this particular quarry, which is great. It takes these types of hunters and forces them to restrict their harvest, by choice. On the flip side, it takes their passion and turns it into a tangible upside in regards to mule deer management in the form of labor and money.

http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 

smitty

Very Active Member
Messages
1,429
I'm a dedicated hunter, have been for the past 6 years. Only killed 2 bucks. I'm for the program.

I received an email from the division saying the DH program will continue, but will be a draw just like the LE hunts. You will apply for it during the Big Game application.

As far as these guys complaining about the service hours, I've done everything from building metal ramps, to taking fish surveys to delivering proclamations. Which seems to be the number one "sissy" service project that guys tend to b!tch about. Well, I spent a full day doing it, put 90 miles on my truck and missed a days wages. So blow me if that doesn't fit your criteria.

If it was up to me, it would be manditory to do service to get a deer tag, as well as turn in several sets of coyote ears.

We have far too many people b!tching about the deer herd and crying "oh poor me, why can't I find a good buck?" "what is the division/SFW going to do for me?" and far too few guys that are actually doing something to help out. If everyone in the state pitched in and did something, instead of b!tching on the internet wondering when someone else was going to get it all figured out, we'd all be better off. It's these same peckerheads that are camping out and boycotting wallstreet when they should be out there working and making their own fortune rather than complaining that someone else is rich.

Sorry, just ate at Chuck-a-rama, musta had some salmonella. I'm still p!ssed though.
 
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elkun

Guest
the dedicated hunter program for most of us. is not about the killing .it's about the hunting,,,,,is sad most of you cant under stand that,,,,
 

Muley_73

Very Active Member
Messages
2,395
Guys I think my original intent is being missed. A bonus point system would give more opportunity to get out and do some work!!!
 

horncrzy

Active Member
Messages
155
Doing work for a bonus point? Would rather be able to get out more during the year. Most of the dedicated hunters I know (including me) never kill a deer unless it is a mature animal. I would dare say most dedicated hunters are similiar. I know some dedicated hunters that have not killed in Utah for over 5-6 years.... they have had the oportunity to kill but chose not to.
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
There must not be many mature animals in Utah If you go for 6 years without killing one. I believe it, everytime I go there all I see are dedicated hunters, I had one sneak past our spike camp three hours before light, beat us up there and killed a big buck right where we were headed opening day of the muzzy season, said he hunted it all archery season. Thats quite often the way hunting is these days, I just wish everywhere didn't get so much pressure, I know its dissapointing to the younger generation and its got to be hard on the deer .
 

AspenAdventures

Very Active Member
Messages
2,888
I dont think the points is a good idea.

Guys that have been waiting half their lives to get a LE tag will now have to go DH and do the song and dance to stay ahead in the game.


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 

Camper_A1

Active Member
Messages
930
The notion of the Dedicated Hunter not being for kids or seniors is false. I have been a DH from the first year on. As soon as my 2 sons were old enough to hunt I signed them up so they would be able to get a permit and enjoy the outdoors together. I have enjoyed being able to spend time with them doing the serice projects and teach them about giving back to wildlife. It also allows us more chances to plan a hunt around their schedules. Because of football we have hunted a total of 4 days the last 2 years. The 32 service hours for each were tough to get in with their schedules but I'm grateful for the time with them.
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
I understand what your saying, but imagine your a young hunter and you hunt hard, walking lots of miles, you dream about seeing a big buck and having a chance at one, but almost everywhere you go there are or have been hard core hunters, very very few big bucks of course, but lots of hightec hard core three season hunters. Thats how I have seen it, and I don't blame kids for finding something else to get passionate about. Young children are excited to go along on a doe or anterless hunt, its the young hunters ready to go and learn on their own that often get discouraged by the current state of affairs, thats how I see it anyway.
 

stillhunterman

Active Member
Messages
608
I hear where you are coming from piper, and certainly can understand your own experiences. I think when we as hunters can contribute to our heritage, like what Muley73 is trying to do, it makes us all better for it. Too many of us stand on the sidelines and complain about this or that, often times doing nothing about it. Frankly, I think Muley has some ideas that have merit for the DH program, and will be looked into a bit further to see what develops.

As to the experiences of young hunters having to compete with the hard core hunters you talk about, I'm sure you have some justification there. I've been hunting mule deer for some 40 odd years, and have my own perspective as to what it is I want to get out of my hunts. Maybe, just maybe, over the years it has been instilled into our youngsters that if we don't kill a large, mature animal our hunt wasn't worth it, and the experience is all for naught. If that's the case then how sad.

Since my youth and up to this very day, my hunting experiences are not measured by the size of the antlers, but by my worth as a hunter and the endeavors I have had to endure to achieve the satisfaction of a successful hunt, which by no means, is measured by a kill, let alone a kill of mature animals.

Perhaps, as mentors, we can bring a new philosophy to our young recruits, one that teaches things that can't be measured by a tape; and when the time comes later down the line for those youngsters when they are seasoned and learned of our heritage, they can choose for themselves with full knowledge what does and does not make their own hunts a success. I don't know, but I don't think it would hurt any.
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
your right, lets just have a big competetion to see who can get there first, thats what its all about. There are nice bucks everywhere, we just got to get up earlier.
 
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timothymarks

Guest
It's not a competition to see who gets there first, it is a matter of desire. The guy who wants to really hunt and get the good animals will go the extra mile and sleep less than the rest of the guys. If you lay up in camp then complain. That someone snuck around you while you slept and beat you to the big deer by 3 hours it tells me they wanted it more. Nothing personal to you, but you can't honestly complain about that.
 

ridgetops

Very Active Member
Messages
2,001
I like the program the way it is.
Well, except for being stuck with the same unit for 3 year straight.(even if it's your 3rd choice)


There's always next year
 

piper

Long Time Member
Messages
5,082
No timothy, Im complaining about the amount of pressure, the lack of opportunity to harvest a nice animal, crowded hunting conditions, and just plain lack of mature animals in Utahs general deer hunts. I just question the management. I was born in the late 50s and have seen things when they were far different, its the younger generation of hunters I feel for. I know all about getting there first, I have carried packs and water to the top of peaks before, just to make sure I was the first one, out hiked people, I have done all that stuff. I just question the wisdom in managing deer as Utah does in the general hunts, I think its detremental to the recrutment of young hunters, and having a group of people hunt all three seasons doesn't help an already bad situation in which there is already too much pressure and a cronic overharvesting of mature animals.
 
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chubchub

Guest
I have been in the program since I was of age to hunt... I hut with a group of friends that r as well in the program this next season some of them are done with the program and some of us still have one year or tag left. I agree with the point being made but I don't think it is going to do anything for pressure. Reason is my group of friends (which I think is how a lot of the DH are the same) the ones that dont have a guaranteed and might not draw the unit that we all hunt will still be there with us on every hunt for all three seasons. How the new units are structured we don't know what will happen in the future as to each one of us getting tags every year but I know that most if not all of us will be there for eachother on every hunt that each one of us draws. Think of the LE elk hunts same thing guy gets a tag and shows up with how many friends and family that none of which have there own tag. I think it is the simple reason that we have a strong passion for our way of life (hunting) I like any new idea that helps out the herd and would be there to put in my hours every year or whatever the case may be for the cause. I just don't think the DH need to be singled out as statted on other post what about the shed hunters in the most critical time for survival the deer have the ATV rides in the spring and all year round how many of us spend time scouting the list goes on and all of which put pressure on our herd. I do like the idea though anything that gets our sportsmen out in the field doing projects helping the cause I am for!!! We have a big problem with our deer herd and like all of the good people here on MM we need to find a way to pitch in for the cause and not just sit back and B!tch behind a screen... I do like the idea that was stated that the DH program should be focused on and benifit only the Mule deer we do the hours and pay the money to hunt them it should benifit them more instead of saving the fish! I mean really what does Pelican hazing have to do with mule deer? Sorry one of the projects I did a few years back... My 2 cents sorry to bore you...
 
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timothymarks

Guest
Piper the deer herds will never be like they were in the 50s we just don't have the carrying capacity in the winter. If the deer herds increase we will loose huge amounts of deer during rough winters. You have seen several instances like this if you have lived in Utah that long. This is as good as deer hunting will ever get in the state of Utah. Growing number of deer hunters coupled with habitat loss do to expansion of residential areas
 

AWHOLELOTTABULL

Long Time Member
Messages
4,357
One thing I would add as well...even if you do your hours, if you harvest a buck that year you don't get a bonus point. You only get a bonus point for the hours completed and a tag turned back in. Just a thought.

Also, Smitty, I'm not trying to minimize your time and mileage on your quest to fill the sporting goods stores with proclamations. IMO it does absolutely nothing for habitat or service to wildlife. All you did was help DWR employees do something they didn't want to do anyway. All I'm saying is keep the DH program but modify it to the point that everything that is done there directly benefits wildlife.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
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timothymarks

Guest
I think your not considering everything. If a dedicated hunter is delivering the proclamations then that frees up cash that would have been paying somebody else to deliver them, or it frees up time from a fish cop so he can be out looming for deer poachers or harrasing people depending on his mood I guess
 

AWHOLELOTTABULL

Long Time Member
Messages
4,357
I guess it's just me then. I would be sorely offended if I showed up to the DWR office and they handed me a pallot of proclamations and said deliver them. My first thought would be< "is that how much they value my service?" Seems to me if this is all they can conjur up for someone to do, they aren't doing their jobs in getting more habitat projects in the works.

A thought as I am typing this; let the disabled hunters deliver the proclamations or some of the other low impact projects. I know they would give anything to be able to use some elbow grease but can't so that would be a great way to help out. For the rest, plan early and roll up your sleeves. There you go, now the proclamation delivery peice is still included.:)


It's always an adventure!!!
 

AspenAdventures

Very Active Member
Messages
2,888
Give out bonus points and I will sign up for DH program.

Good luck drawing your tags unless you are in the DH program.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 

AWHOLELOTTABULL

Long Time Member
Messages
4,357
Yep. You and 5,000,000 other Utah hunters. Getting a DH designation will be almost as hard as getting a Henries tag!:)


It's always an adventure!!!
 

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