Deseret Ranch Ut, Inflation gone wild…

highfastflyer

Very Active Member
Messages
1,558
Just a little cost creep on a 2022 elk hunt on Deseret Ranch.

  • Cost plus sales tax (around $114)
    • Early season: $21,000 September through First week of October
    • Late season: $19,250 Second week of October through November 10th
  • How dare they not even absorb the sales tax LOL…..
    • Not included:
      • Taxidermy, butcher work,
      • Tips to guide:Average tips are $1,800-$2500
      • Tip to the cooks: $200 total ($100 to each)
      • Tips to packer: $100-$200
      • Cost of elk tag and hunting license from the UDWR. $400 resident/$900 non resident
      • Guest fee: $1,000 per week if a guest is brought
      • https://wildcountryoutfitters.com/price
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Outfitting is a sweet gig. The state gives you the materials (animals), and the outfitter gives back???????


Lumber, livestock, mining, petroleum, all pay for the resource they sell.

Outfitters, pay nothing.

In a sane world the outfitter would be charged a percentage. The tag holder does, although it's barely anything, compared to the price of the hunt.


And we wonder why Utah is covered with CWMU, and outfitters
 

257Tony

Long Time Member
Messages
3,970
Outfitting is a sweet gig. The state gives you the materials (animals), and the outfitter gives back???????


Lumber, livestock, mining, petroleum, all pay for the resource they sell.

Outfitters, pay nothing.

In a sane world the outfitter would be charged a percentage. The tag holder does, although it's barely anything, compared to the price of the hunt.


And we wonder why Utah is covered with CWMU, and outfitters
Well, I'm sure the landowner doesn't let them use the land for free. Are you suggesting some sort of additional tax on the outfitter that goes directly to the DWR? Deseret has 100 Bull Elk tags, let's say half go to residents and half to non residents. That's about $70,000 in license sales just off one unit.

What do you see happening if the CWMU program were to get shut down today? I see landowners continuing to sell guided hunts, they would just have to do it during the general seasons. We are never going back to the old days of knocking doors and getting permission to hunt these massive pieces of private land.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Well, I'm sure the landowner doesn't let them use the land for free. Are you suggesting some sort of additional tax on the outfitter that goes directly to the DWR? Deseret has 100 Bull Elk tags, let's say half go to residents and half to non residents. That's about $70,000 in license sales just off one unit.

What do you see happening if the CWMU program were to get shut down today? I see landowners continuing to sell guided hunts, they would just have to do it during the general seasons. We are never going back to the old days of knocking doors and getting permission to hunt these massive pieces of private land.


Ya. If there was no CWMU system, of course landowners would sell hunts.

But they WOULDNT have guaranteed, year after year customers simply buying their way around the draws.

That in turn would tamp down inflation and cost on tags.

There's only so many dudes that can swing $20k a year, and if they were subject to the draw, and waiting periods, the landowner would need to be more competitive.

Granted there are a very small handful of outfitters who own land. Deseret being one.

But the vast majority of outfitters/guides contribute zero to the resource, and suck up the gravy. A $289 tag, nets Mossback $175,000. Kinda seems like WE the owners of the wildlife, need to renegotiate that deal.


The prices on CWMU are for guarantee tags, and long seasons.

With 2week seasons, those tag pric s plummet. With non guaranteed tags, and customers in the draw, they plummet more.

You can't ask $20k for a hunt, if the customer base didn't draw a tag
 

Stubaby

Very Active Member
Messages
1,388
There are plenty of dudes with $20,000 for an elk. I’m not one of them but these days there are lots of people who’s ship has come in and they just don’t care what the dollars are. Look at the size of houses going up and the $200,000 boat in the garage. Look how many custom rifle manufacturers there are. They aren’t keeping the lights on without moving inventory.
 

30Hart

Very Active Member
Messages
1,566
Ya I can see listing it on the paperwork they send for the public cow hunts because if you choose the guided option, the guides work for free and most people may not know that. The other is guys paying that much for a hunt don't need to be told how much to tip and if they are unsure about the behind the scenes people they'll ask. 10% to 20% of the hunt price is standard...the jerks get balanced by the very generous and it all works out.
 

257Tony

Long Time Member
Messages
3,970
Ya. If there was no CWMU system, of course landowners would sell hunts.

But they WOULDNT have guaranteed, year after year customers simply buying their way around the draws.

That in turn would tamp down inflation and cost on tags.

There's only so many dudes that can swing $20k a year, and if they were subject to the draw, and waiting periods, the landowner would need to be more competitive.

Granted there are a very small handful of outfitters who own land. Deseret being one.

But the vast majority of outfitters/guides contribute zero to the resource, and suck up the gravy. A $289 tag, nets Mossback $175,000. Kinda seems like WE the owners of the wildlife, need to renegotiate that deal.


The prices on CWMU are for guarantee tags, and long seasons.

With 2week seasons, those tag pric s plummet. With non guaranteed tags, and customers in the draw, they plummet more.

You can't ask $20k for a hunt, if the customer base didn't draw a tag
I saw this exact scenario play out on a smaller CWMU in northern Utah. They pulled it out of the program, and started selling general season guided hunts, at a lower price. The kicker is, now they can sell as many as they can, there is no limit on the number if bucks or bulls they can kill. So yes, the price went down, but the harvest went up.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
To some degree, it’s a principal of “charging what ever the market well bear”. When there are more people who will pay more than the product you have to sell, the price will go up, until the buyer demand will balance with the product availability.

In the case of the price Deseret charges for its elk hunts, I’m guessing there are more buyers than there are tags.

Of course the price could be driven by something else besides market principals but it doesn’t seem to be, based on the prices charged by other high end private ranch hunts. From what I’ve heard about the Deseret, their hunt is offering a really high grade experience beyond the score of the elks antlers, but that’s just street talk in as much as I’ve never been there. Logic tells me most people would not pay a lot more if there wasn’t something of value being offered.

Whether I agree with the concepts or not is besides the point. It’s just doesn’t seem like the Deseret is conducting their business much different than any other business, whether it’s selling a product, from rice to trips into outer space.
 
Last edited:

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,189
Ya. If there was no CWMU system, of course landowners would sell hunts.

But they WOULDNT have guaranteed, year after year customers simply buying their way around the draws.

That in turn would tamp down inflation and cost on tags.

There's only so many dudes that can swing $20k a year, and if they were subject to the draw, and waiting periods, the landowner would need to be more competitive.

Granted there are a very small handful of outfitters who own land. Deseret being one.

But the vast majority of outfitters/guides contribute zero to the resource, and suck up the gravy. A $289 tag, nets Mossback $175,000. Kinda seems like WE the owners of the wildlife, need to renegotiate that deal.


The prices on CWMU are for guarantee tags, and long seasons.

With 2week seasons, those tag pric s plummet. With non guaranteed tags, and customers in the draw, they plummet more.

You can't ask $20k for a hunt, if the customer base didn't draw a tag
Hoss,

Why do you care what they charge? There are plenty of outfitters that charge lots of money for guiding draw tag hunters as well.
All that I know is that I won't pay that much to shoot a bull. So I move on...
 

berrysblaster

Very Active Member
Messages
2,006
Holy smokes Hoss, let me tell you, your numbers are uh skewed to say the least. There is very little money in outfitting. It costs a whole bunch that's for sure, but there's a reason why most outfitters have a 'real job' and then the outfitting.

Mossback made the leap from outfitting to a brand. Now they market that brand into merchandise, movies, online presence, advertisement, and sponsorship, why? Cause there ain't no money in outfitting. There's profit to be made in hats, and sweaters, and dvd's, and those are sold and marketed when state and world class animals are killed, but again, I say, there ain't no money in outfitting.

Mossback never in the history of ever got paid $175K for a hunt. They might've helped generate that kind of revenue for a tag at an auction that benefitted the state and a conservation organization or from a landowner who profited, but the hunter would have paid $10-20K for an absolutely dolled out top of the line, every spotter and benefit available hunt and that's what the outfitter is in it for.

There's absolutely a conversation to be had about money and its place in hunting. We can go till we are blue in the face about limited entry, expo's, and conservation org's. I'll hammer all day long on the division, management, ETC ETC. However, going after outfitting, and the run of the mill hunters who try to bridge business with what they love is missing the mark IMO. Its fairly obvious to anyone who has been around the industry long enough that those guys aren't getting rich.

Now, don't confuse those guys with the couple who bridged the gap from outfitting to a brand. That's back on that money's place in hunting topic above.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
Holy smokes Hoss, let me tell you, your numbers are uh skewed to say the least. There is very little money in outfitting. It costs a whole bunch that's for sure, but there's a reason why most outfitters have a 'real job' and then the outfitting.

Mossback made the leap from outfitting to a brand. Now they market that brand into merchandise, movies, online presence, advertisement, and sponsorship, why? Cause there ain't no money in outfitting. There's profit to be made in hats, and sweaters, and dvd's, and those are sold and marketed when state and world class animals are killed, but again, I say, there ain't no money in outfitting.

Mossback never in the history of ever got paid $175K for a hunt. They might've helped generate that kind of revenue for a tag at an auction that benefitted the state and a conservation organization or from a landowner who profited, but the hunter would have paid $10-20K for an absolutely dolled out top of the line, every spotter and benefit available hunt and that's what the outfitter is in it for.

There's absolutely a conversation to be had about money and its place in hunting. We can go till we are blue in the face about limited entry, expo's, and conservation org's. I'll hammer all day long on the division, management, ETC ETC. However, going after outfitting, and the run of the mill hunters who try to bridge business with what they love is missing the mark IMO. Its fairly obvious to anyone who has been around the industry long enough that those guys aren't getting rich.

Now, don't confuse those guys with the couple who bridged the gap from outfitting to a brand. That's back on that money's place in hunting topic above.
berryb, I’ve been told the same thing, regarding how much outfitters make. ie; not much per hunter. This came from a person I know well, that is not an outfitter but works in the hunting industry and while he’s not employeed by any outfitters, he spends hundreds of hours interacting with a lot of different owners of outfitting businesses.

One day we were on a trip together and he was telling me about an outfitter that amongst other hunts, sold over 150 cow elk tags per year. I was impressed. I said, wow, that’s a lot of money at $1,600 a pop. He laughed. “Not really”, he said

I said, “well, I know he doesn’t pocket the entire amount, how much does he net, off a cow elk tag “.

He broke down the costs, there were far more expenses than I expected, especially the fees paid by the outfitter to the government besides the typical business operating expenses and fixed costs. I wish I could accurately recall what that break down was, but it left very little, $150-$200 per hunter, barring any unforeseen, unexpected costs as I recall.

That’s not a lot per hunter. A lot of folks get a chunk of those high cost elk tags, not just the outfitter.

I know how much I want to get paid, per day, and so does the guy doing body shop repairs, the guy that repairs my fridge, the guy that fixes my teeth, the guy that rents me his aluminum boat, the guy who remodels my house, the guy who sells me a Big Mac, and on and on. The reality is, everything is expensive, outfitter fees are no exception.

My son took his wife skiing this weekend. Lift pass we’re $180 each. Golf green fees in Baniff, Alberta are up $299.00. Both locations are top of the line resorts, I grant you that but apparently Deseret’s hunts are of similar high end quality.

1641952940400.png


You can ski for less and you can golf for less but you dang sure can’t ski or golf cheap, no matter where you go.

berryB, your apparently in the outfitting business, would you be interested in breaking down the costs to someone like you, that is selling Utah elk hunts.m? Might be a surprisingly revealing reality.
 

30Hart

Very Active Member
Messages
1,566
Holy smokes Hoss, let me tell you, your numbers are uh skewed to say the least. There is very little money in outfitting. It costs a whole bunch that's for sure, but there's a reason why most outfitters have a 'real job' and then the outfitting.

Mossback made the leap from outfitting to a brand. Now they market that brand into merchandise, movies, online presence, advertisement, and sponsorship, why? Cause there ain't no money in outfitting. There's profit to be made in hats, and sweaters, and dvd's, and those are sold and marketed when state and world class animals are killed, but again, I say, there ain't no money in outfitting.

Mossback never in the history of ever got paid $175K for a hunt. They might've helped generate that kind of revenue for a tag at an auction that benefitted the state and a conservation organization or from a landowner who profited, but the hunter would have paid $10-20K for an absolutely dolled out top of the line, every spotter and benefit available hunt and that's what the outfitter is in it for.

There's absolutely a conversation to be had about money and its place in hunting. We can go till we are blue in the face about limited entry, expo's, and conservation org's. I'll hammer all day long on the division, management, ETC ETC. However, going after outfitting, and the run of the mill hunters who try to bridge business with what they love is missing the mark IMO. Its fairly obvious to anyone who has been around the industry long enough that those guys aren't getting rich.

Now, don't confuse those guys with the couple who bridged the gap from outfitting to a brand. That's back on that money's place in hunting topic above.
Very true words indeed. My one outfitter buddy runs 240 head of Angus and runs the local nonprofit Search and Rescue and the other buddy has a degree and helps ranches raise and sell exotics along with helping ranches enhance habitat for wildlife...neither are rich but they're happy at what they do.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
JUDAS BEAVIS!

We Are Not The IRS You're Trying To Convince That You Didn't Make any Money doing what You Do Year After Year!

I'll Bet Every GREENBACK Tip You Ever Got Was Reported!:D



Holy smokes Hoss, let me tell you, your numbers are uh skewed to say the least. There is very little money in outfitting. It costs a whole bunch that's for sure, but there's a reason why most outfitters have a 'real job' and then the outfitting.

Mossback made the leap from outfitting to a brand. Now they market that brand into merchandise, movies, online presence, advertisement, and sponsorship, why? Cause there ain't no money in outfitting. There's profit to be made in hats, and sweaters, and dvd's, and those are sold and marketed when state and world class animals are killed, but again, I say, there ain't no money in outfitting.

Mossback never in the history of ever got paid $175K for a hunt. They might've helped generate that kind of revenue for a tag at an auction that benefitted the state and a conservation organization or from a landowner who profited, but the hunter would have paid $10-20K for an absolutely dolled out top of the line, every spotter and benefit available hunt and that's what the outfitter is in it for.

There's absolutely a conversation to be had about money and its place in hunting. We can go till we are blue in the face about limited entry, expo's, and conservation org's. I'll hammer all day long on the division, management, ETC ETC. However, going after outfitting, and the run of the mill hunters who try to bridge business with what they love is missing the mark IMO. Its fairly obvious to anyone who has been around the industry long enough that those guys aren't getting rich.

Now, don't confuse those guys with the couple who bridged the gap from outfitting to a brand. That's back on that money's place in hunting topic above.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
And One More Thing!

We Don't Need To Wonder If there Are Enough Hunters in This World That Can & Will Pay the 25K Fee & Not Bat An Eye!
 

BrowningRage

Long Time Member
Messages
3,717
I think many who see those numbers and express shock (myself included), see it as a devaluation of the dollar. I wouldn't pay $25k to hunt a T Rex, let alone a bull elk. The point of the thread is justified as "inflation". A thing is only worth what someone will pay for it, but when money is no object, prices are inflated.

For the record, if this was 1% of my net income each year, I'd probably do it too. I hope someday I'll have to make such a moral decision. 😁😁
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,330
I think many who see those numbers and express shock (myself included), see it as a devaluation of the dollar. I wouldn't pay $25k to hunt a T Rex, let alone a bull elk. The point of the thread is justified as "inflation". A thing is only worth what someone will pay for it, but when money is no object, prices are inflated.

For the record, if this was 1% of my net income each year, I'd probably do it too. I hope someday I'll have to make such a moral decision. 😁😁
Being a prior guide on Deseret, people aren't buying or trying to kill a "Trophy" by today's standards of 400", they are paying to hunt on a place where they they don't have to fight for a 330".
 

BLooDTRaCKeR

Very Active Member
Messages
2,237
If there is no money in it, then why the heck do we keep letting big guide services destroy our (average Joe hunter) opportunity and quality of experience year after year??

There’s a lot of “under the counter money” being forked out to keep guides looking poor on the books.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Hoss,

Why do you care what they charge? There are plenty of outfitters that charge lots of money for guiding draw tag hunters as well.
All that I know is that I won't pay that much to shoot a bull. So I move on...


I care because Utah has set up a system for deep pockets to not have the same hunts as everyone else. If you had to chose CWMU or draw, that would be better. But as it stands now, deep pockets play the draw, addi g to point creep, then simply buy tags when they don't draw.

I care because CWMU is exploding. And not amongst landowners. But via outfitters who own nothing, yet lock down land.

I care because there is a bunch of public land locked behind CWMU gates.

I care because the UDWR pimps out 500+ tags in an effort to raise money to support the agency, while outfitters take in 19x, 20x, on tags.

I care because if I wanted to live in Texas, I'd move there.
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,189
I care because Utah has set up a system for deep pockets to not have the same hunts as everyone else. If you had to chose CWMU or draw, that would be better. But as it stands now, deep pockets play the draw, addi g to point creep, then simply buy tags when they don't draw.

I care because CWMU is exploding. And not amongst landowners. But via outfitters who own nothing, yet lock down land.

I care because there is a bunch of public land locked behind CWMU gates.

I care because the UDWR pimps out 500+ tags in an effort to raise money to support the agency, while outfitters take in 19x, 20x, on tags.

I care because if I wanted to live in Texas, I'd move there.
It's my understanding that CWMU's are private property, with landlocked public land included. That same issue is the same in many states. I've read a lot of threads on "corner hopping" and the like.
I have to believe the Deseret Ranch (the Mormon church) is setting the price on these tags, not the guides. If that is inaccurate, I'd like to see the data. Every outfitter I know pays a lease of some sort to guide on private land, so they have financial "skin in the game".
If I had enough money, I could dang near hunt in every state, after I failed to draw a tag. I'm not saying it's fair, it's just true.
With that being said, there is a cost creep on these tags, and people are paying it. It's capitalism.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
It's my understanding that CWMU's are private property, with landlocked public land included. That same issue is the same in many states. I've read a lot of threads on "corner hopping" and the like.
I have to believe the Deseret Ranch (the Mormon church) is setting the price on these tags, not the guides. If that is inaccurate, I'd like to see the data. Every outfitter I know pays a lease of some sort to guide on private land, so they have financial "skin in the game".
If I had enough money, I could dang near hunt in every state, after I failed to draw a tag. I'm not saying it's fair, it's just true.
With that being said, there is a cost creep on these tags, and people are paying it. It's capitalism.


Loggers, miners, livestock, etc pay a fee for the resource extracted.

What do outfitters pay? Or to be more precise, how does wildlife benefit at all because of outfitting?

Landowner feeds animals, hunter pays for the tag that funds DWR. What does the outfitter do?

The draw to CWMU is the guaranteed tag

Before them, we had groups like United sportsman, that charged access fees.

But NO ONE is paying $19k yearly for access, without the tag. Those guranteed tags, drive the price. But the grantor of those tags(dwr) gets virtually nothing, compared with the outfitter.
 

257Tony

Long Time Member
Messages
3,970
Loggers, miners, livestock, etc pay a fee for the resource extracted.

What do outfitters pay? Or to be more precise, how does wildlife benefit at all because of outfitting?

Landowner feeds animals, hunter pays for the tag that funds DWR. What does the outfitter do?

The draw to CWMU is the guaranteed tag

Before them, we had groups like United sportsman, that charged access fees.

But NO ONE is paying $19k yearly for access, without the tag. Those guranteed tags, drive the price. But the grantor of those tags(dwr) gets virtually nothing, compared with the outfitter.
Who do the miners and loggers pay the fee to? The outfitter pays the landowner handsomely to run hunts on his ground. Not sure if you're trying to imply that the public benefits from the fees the loggers pay, but they don't get a cut of the outfitters money? Please explain
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Make the outfitters BUY the tags via auction. The DWR keeps 100%, the outfitter can then go get and and make whatever lease deal he wants.

If an elk is worth $25k. The the state(the taxpayers) should pocket that. The animals are OURS.

The TAG is the money. No one is forking over $25k to hang out with a guide for a weekend.

Notice $fw doesn't sell it's tags for cheap. Why do we?
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Who do the miners and loggers pay the fee to? The outfitter pays the landowner handsomely to run hunts on his ground. Not sure if you're trying to imply that the public benefits from the fees the loggers pay, but they don't get a cut of the outfitters money? Please explain


Outfitter can pay billions to run a hunt. The landowner doesn't own the animals, just the land. No tag/animal, no hunt.
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,189
Make the outfitters BUY the tags via auction. The DWR keeps 100%, the outfitter can then go get and and make whatever lease deal he wants.

If an elk is worth $25k. The the state(the taxpayers) should pocket that. The animals are OURS.

The TAG is the money. No one is forking over $25k to hang out with a guide for a weekend.

Notice $fw doesn't sell it's tags for cheap. Why do we?
Hoss, yo make it sound like the outfitter gets the tags for free. If the outfitter is the landowner, then he might get them cheap.
For example, I have a friend in Northern Nevada who gets elk tags from the state. He sells those tags every year to the same outfitter. The landowner gets over $10,000 each for those tags, from the outfitter.
I'm not sure what the situation is on the Deseret, but if landowners are guaranteed tags in Utah, they can sell them for what they want. There's 290,000 acres there that can be hunted for the right price. You'd never be able to get on there otherwise.
If you don't like outfitters, just say it, but I don't know any that play the game for free.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Hoss, yo make it sound like the outfitter gets the tags for free. If the outfitter is the landowner, then he might get them cheap.
For example, I have a friend in Northern Nevada who gets elk tags from the state. He sells those tags every year to the same outfitter. The landowner gets over $10,000 each for those tags, from the outfitter.
I'm not sure what the situation is on the Deseret, but if landowners are guaranteed tags in Utah, they can sell them for what they want. There's 290,000 acres there that can be hunted for the right price. You'd never be able to get on there otherwise.
If you don't like outfitters, just say it, but I don't know any that play the game for free.


I don't like outfitters on public ground.

Deseret is a little different than most of the CWMU here. They have enough ground they truly house animals year round. The vast majority do not.

You keep missing the point.

If the landowner wants to sell trespass permits, good for him.

What drives the cost, in Utah, is 4 month seasons. AND. NO WAITING PERIOD.

While YOU might draw a Boulder tag, you then cannot apply for 5years.

If you buy a Deseret tag, you can do so yearly.

Where is the ability to bypass waiting periods for the vast majority of hunters in Utah?

Further. Where is the incentive for the landowner? Public walk in access? Or 6 figure paydays?

I can't speak to Nevada.

But Utah has, CWMU(private hunting ranches), 500+ "conservation tags", plus gov tags.

No other western state is close to what Utah does, and NONE of what Utah does is for the 90% of hunters. After the corporate class gets what they want, a couple tags get thrown to the public in an attempt to shut them up.

You have some idea in your head that ranchers get tags, and hire outfitters to run hunts.

That's 180 degrees from what happens.

Outfitters, recruit landowners to set up CWMU, for a steady business. And they aren't paying 6 figures for the land. They are paying 6 figures for the special carveouts.

They cant pay hundreds of thousands and then get the same seasons as us, with waiting periods. That's where the money is.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
But as was pointed out earlier, getting that genie back, won't happen.

Why?

Because their is a public clamouring for 1/4 of Utah to be private hunting clubs?

OR

Because CWMU, is the deep pocket playground?

If your struggling answering that, ask yourself why tag reductions are necessary statewide, yet, magically, a barbwire fence and yellow sign, means deer are flourishing.

They are the same deer. CWMU aren't magical places with no winter kill, no road loss, no fawn mortality issues, no predators, no climate change.

Yet, CWMU doesn't EVER get tag cuts.

I wonder why🙄
 

257Tony

Long Time Member
Messages
3,970
Inside a 4month window. That they choose.

And even then, I believe they late cow hunt in Dec in some.
Generally, they can either choose September 1 to October 31, or September 10 to November 10 for antlered game. There are a few with some special later season hunts for elk, but not very many.
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,189
I don't like outfitters on public ground.

Deseret is a little different than most of the CWMU here. They have enough ground they truly house animals year round. The vast majority do not.

You keep missing the point.

If the landowner wants to sell trespass permits, good for him.

What drives the cost, in Utah, is 4 month seasons. AND. NO WAITING PERIOD.

While YOU might draw a Boulder tag, you then cannot apply for 5years.

If you buy a Deseret tag, you can do so yearly.

Where is the ability to bypass waiting periods for the vast majority of hunters in Utah?

Further. Where is the incentive for the landowner? Public walk in access? Or 6 figure paydays?

I can't speak to Nevada.

But Utah has, CWMU(private hunting ranches), 500+ "conservation tags", plus gov tags.

No other western state is close to what Utah does, and NONE of what Utah does is for the 90% of hunters. After the corporate class gets what they want, a couple tags get thrown to the public in an attempt to shut them up.

You have some idea in your head that ranchers get tags, and hire outfitters to run hunts.

That's 180 degrees from what happens.

Outfitters, recruit landowners to set up CWMU, for a steady business. And they aren't paying 6 figures for the land. They are paying 6 figures for the special carveouts.

They cant pay hundreds of thousands and then get the same seasons as us, with waiting periods. That's where the money is.
The idea I have in my head is that landowners get tags, and sell them for quite a profit. That's a fact. If an outfitter gets in between that, then so be it.
I guess I do keep missing your point on some of the other things.
It sounds like you have Utah figured out, you have a lot to work on. Good luck.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
The idea I have in my head is that landowners get tags, and sell them for quite a profit. That's a fact. If an outfitter gets in between that, then so be it.
I guess I do keep missing your point on some of the other things.
It sounds like you have Utah figured out, you have a lot to work on. Good luck.


East of Ogden Utah is a big piece of property called Sourdough. Set up know in small plots folks buy for camping spots.

I did a job for the guy that owned that(an old sheepherder). He kept a piece off the end of it, for retirement funds.

He was telling me an outfitter, cold called him, offered $365,000 for hunting rights, IF he would set up a CWMU. HE,. isn't a hunter, and hadn't had any interest in a CWMU.


That's how MOST CWMU are now. The big ones like Deseret are the outlier. The acreage required was cut down, and numerous ranches can be combined, and public land can be included.

I know the OP was Deseret. And they are pretty much the gold standard for how the program was sold to the public.

But for most, it's an outfitter scheme in which they provide no land, no animals, and make bank.

Yes.

UTAH HAS SERIOUS CORPORATE HUNTING PROBLEMS
 

Ultimag

Active Member
Messages
699
Cost creep????
Have you looked at buying a new house or truck lately?????
Yup. I Sure, have the difference is when i pay for that house or car im gaureenteed to get the house/car i paid for
When i drop 25k to shoot an animal there are, no gaureentee the outfitter will deliver what i paid for
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
Yup. I Sure, have the difference is when i pay for that house or car im gaureenteed to get the house/car i paid for
When i drop 25k to shoot an animal there are, no gaureentee the outfitter will deliver what i paid for
They always tell me, very clearly, I’m paying for the hunt and the services that go with it such as time, knowledge, lodging, housing, Diet Coke but not an animal or the whiskey. So I kind of think it’s the same as when I buy a house or a truck.......

Not defending outfitting but seems to miss represent what they are selling.......
 
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middlefork

Active Member
Messages
499
Hos,
They have to convince the other owners on Sourdough that a CWMU would be in the best interest of the other owners to make it work Good luck.

I believe 10,000 acres are minimum to apply. If it takes several landowners combined and that is what they want to do so be it.

In most cases public land is only included to establish commonly recognized boundaries and additional public tags are issued if that is true.

You seem to think if the CWMU program goes away you will magically have access to private land for a reasonable to you fee. That is not going to happen.

I'm not a fan of CWMU's and don't apply because I don't want to be restricted by their rules. But any landowner in this day and age will maximize any income they can get. The CWMU just make easier.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
Only partially rhetorical: Are there more deer per acre on CWMU units than there are on the public land adjacent too them?

I believe there are but what do you believe?
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Hos,
They have to convince the other owners on Sourdough that a CWMU would be in the best interest of the other owners to make it work Good luck.

I believe 10,000 acres are minimum to apply. If it takes several landowners combined and that is what they want to do so be it.

In most cases public land is only included to establish commonly recognized boundaries and additional public tags are issued if that is true.

You seem to think if the CWMU program goes away you will magically have access to private land for a reasonable to you fee. That is not going to happen.

I'm not a fan of CWMU's and don't apply because I don't want to be restricted by their rules. But any landowner in this day and age will maximize any income they can get. The CWMU just make easier.


No. He owns more land.

No, I don't think private will magically open. But get real, random dudes drawing tags in the draw, then buying trespass vouchers, dramatically lowers prices.

Deseret charges what they do because they know yearly they have repeat buisness.

If Deseret got 2 weekends for rifle deer, and dudes couldn't buy around waiting periods and point creep, those prices dump. Because there isn't massive profits, the push to create more and more goes away.

I don't put in for them either. But the shear number of them, especially in N Utah has lead to the concentration of dudes in other units, creating frustration amongst hunters.
 

Ultimag

Active Member
Messages
699
They always tell me, very clearly, I’m paying for the hunt and the services that go with it such as time, knowledge, lodging, housing, Diet Coke but not an animal or the whiskey. So I kind of think it’s the same as when I buy a house or a truck.......

Not defending outfitting but seems to miss represent what they are selling.......
Hopefully that 25k also includes the use /entertainment of his, wife for the length of the hunt otherwise thats an awful expensive diet coke and a room for 5 days
 

mossback50cal

Very Active Member
Messages
1,101
Hey, it could be like New Mexico. Land owners receive free unit wide tags from NMDGF to sell at whatever price they can. Then, in return, are supposed to allow public hunters to hunt on their ranches, with no access restrictions during the seasons. Do you think they do? Hell no. Is anything ever done about it? HELL NO. Big money runs everything, if you think it doesn't, you are crazy.
 

treedagain

Long Time Member
Messages
5,806
Hos,
They have to convince the other owners on Sourdough that a CWMU would be in the best interest of the other owners to make it work Good luck.

I believe 10,000 acres are minimum to apply. If it takes several landowners combined and that is what they want to do so be it.

In most cases public land is only included to establish commonly recognized boundaries and additional public tags are issued if that is true.

You seem to think if the CWMU program goes away you will magically have access to private land for a reasonable to you fee. That is not going to happen.

I'm not a fan of CWMU's and don't apply because I don't want to be restricted by their rules. But any landowner in this day and age will maximize any income they can get. The CWMU just make easier.
Sourdough are leases, not private ownership. I think skull crack was the same type of a deal other than private cabin lots with a shared common area. Then the common area was sold? What about scare canyon?
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
499
Using the hunt planner I don't see a CWMU on Sourdough or Scare Canyon.
I have no idea what arrangements for hunting are on either area.

I thought Skull Crack was bought as one piece. Again I don't know what arrangements were made for the building lots.

I guess if cared enough to worry about it , the county recorders website is pretty easy to navigate.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
This post got me reminiscing about the good old days before CWMUs. When all that private land had to be hunted the same time as the public land seasons. Animals actually crossed the fence both ways. Now it’s a one-way migration to the CWMU safe haven.
Well maybe we should just agree that bureaucratic “ programs rarely, if ever, turn out the way “they” say they will and chalk it up to more bad management. If we do that, we can go ahead and get our expectations about the future right and go on about more pleasant business. It’s working for me.
 

ktg

Active Member
Messages
735
Sounds like Diamond Mtn, although it's not a CWMU. I understand that one outfitter has most of the private land and private tags tied up.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Hos,
They have to convince the other owners on Sourdough that a CWMU would be in the best interest of the other owners to make it work Good luck.

I believe 10,000 acres are minimum to apply. If it takes several landowners combined and that is what they want to do so be it.

In most cases public land is only included to establish commonly recognized boundaries and additional public tags are issued if that is true.

You seem to think if the CWMU program goes away you will magically have access to private land for a reasonable to you fee. That is not going to happen.

I'm not a fan of CWMU's and don't apply because I don't want to be restricted by their rules. But any landowner in this day and age will maximize any income they can get. The CWMU just make easier.


Sunridge.

Ya I know I said sourdough.

And, as of when I was working for him, he hadn't agreed to form CWMU,
 

Shadow

Very Active Member
Messages
1,240
Sounds like Diamond Mtn, although it's not a CWMU. I understand that one outfitter has most of the private land and private tags tied up.
That is correct and much of the best real estate on the unit is private.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
Don’t fault you at all, just wondering how you feel about $9,000/$10,000 for a couple of salmon and a halibut? How about $2,500 for a half dozen pheasants, or $80,000 for a pickup, maybe $250,000 for a building lot?

Or are you just bruised up over a high end end elk hunt. If I’m not mistaken I think you could pay as much for a mule deer hunt and I know for absolute you could pay $30,000 for a brown bear hunt and you’d get to decide how much to tip her too. I

Are all these businessmen /women.......

Lodges, yachts, cooks, food, drinks, maids, pluckers, packers, etc etc vary from cheap to thousands. Hunters choose which ever make and model they want.

No disrespect intended, really.

Aren’t you glad you aren’t forced to pay $80,000 for a pickup?

It’s just the free enterprise system doing what it does. As long as it’s legal there while be a range of services and products at various prices.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
Don’t fault you at all, just wondering how you feel about $9,000/$10,000 for a couple of salmon and a halibut? How about $2,500 for a half dozen pheasants, or $80,000 for a pickup, maybe $250,000 for a building lot?

Or are you just bruised up over a high end end elk hunt. If I’m not mistaken I think you could pay as much for a mule deer hunt and I know for absolute you could pay $30,000 for a brown bear hunt and you’d get to decide how much to tip her too. I

Are all these businessmen /women.......

Lodges, yachts, cooks, food, drinks, maids, pluckers, packers, etc etc vary from cheap to thousands. Hunters choose which ever make and model they want.

No disrespect intended, really.

Aren’t you glad you aren’t forced to pay $80,000 for a pickup?

It’s just the free enterprise system doing what it does. As long as it’s legal there while be a range of services and products at various prices.


So why aren't WE, the owners of the wildlife they are profiting from competing in the "free market"

Why do we contribute that elk, for $289, then watch them charge $30k? Without that elk, there is no business.

50/50? 30/70?

Also, why is it we can't limit the number of guide/outfitter licenses, and then auction them off to the highest bidder?


We have all heard about how it takes money to do good management. Why not raise that money in house?

Supply and demand. The cornerstone of a free market.

Seems long past time, that WE, are compensated for OUR wildlife.

I mean I hear yearly, it's "for conservation" that we hand out tags to groups like candy.

Well, I'm sure all those "conservation minded" deep pockets and outfitters would support giving back
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,189
Some of YOUR wildlife live on large private ranches and Indian Reservations. You'd never be able to hunt them. That is not going to change.
 

highfastflyer

Very Active Member
Messages
1,558
The residents ARE compensated. Some may not like the terms, but from what I do know and understand of the Deseret CWMU it is one of the better examples of how a CWMU should run and function. The public hunters who receive CWMU tags often times take the largest animals so that’s a big bonus. The sad fact is we are waking up to what hunting is becoming rapidly a rich man‘s sport. How long before it’s like Europe where only the elite own big farms and ranches and hunt on private estates? Welcome to the 21st century of game management.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,432
So why aren't WE, the owners of the wildlife they are profiting from competing in the "free market"

Why do we contribute that elk, for $289, then watch them charge $30k? Without that elk, there is no business.

50/50? 30/70?

Also, why is it we can't limit the number of guide/outfitter licenses, and then auction them off to the highest bidder?


We have all heard about how it takes money to do good management. Why not raise that money in house?

Supply and demand. The cornerstone of a free market.

Seems long past time, that WE, are compensated for OUR wildlife.

I mean I hear yearly, it's "for conservation" that we hand out tags to groups like candy.

Well, I'm sure all those "conservation minded" deep pockets and outfitters would support giving back
The Outfitters/Guide does not sell the animal they sell the the outfitting, the experience. Yes it is about the buck or the bull but that is not what the Outfitters are selling, that is the reason the hunter must pay for the license fees not the Outfitters paying tbe license fees.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
The Outfitters/Guide does not sell the animal they sell the the outfitting, the experience. Yes it is about the buck or the bull but that is not what the Outfitters are selling, that is the reason the hunter must pay for the license fees not the Outfitters paying tbe license fees.


Ummmmmmmm

What does Heaton sell on Heaton Ranch?

What does Ensign sell?

Deseret?


If you want to open a bar in Utah, you fight/compete for liquor license. That license is based on population.

Let the outfitters do the same.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,233
Ummmmmmmm

What does Heaton sell on Heaton Ranch?

What does Ensign sell?

Deseret?


If you want to open a bar in Utah, you fight/compete for liquor license. That license is based on population.

Let the outfitters do the same.
They are selling access to their ranch.

The state sells the tags, the ranches sell access, and services.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
They are selling access to their ranch.

The state sells the tags, the ranches sell access, and services.


Huh.

Cuz the OP seems to have a "menu".

Let them sell access all year. The tag pulls $20k. No tag, no $20k.

Let's not pretend.

Deseret, makes their money Selling Tags. Same as Ensign, Heaton, etc.

Put those tags on auction. Let Deseret bid for tags.

Or even, let them have the same seasons as EVERY OTHER LE hunt.

The money is the GUARANTEED TAG.

What's a guaranteed 320-370 bull worth on the "open market"?

Apparently, $20k.

So let's partner up. 50/50 seems fair. They ain't selling dinner and a lodge. They are selling animals.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,330
Huh.

Cuz the OP seems to have a "menu".

Let them sell access all year. The tag pulls $20k. No tag, no $20k.

Let's not pretend.

Deseret, makes their money Selling Tags. Same as Ensign, Heaton, etc.

Put those tags on auction. Let Deseret bid for tags.

Or even, let them have the same seasons as EVERY OTHER LE hunt.

The money is the GUARANTEED TAG.

What's a guaranteed 320-370 bull worth on the "open market"?

Apparently, $20k.

So let's partner up. 50/50 seems fair. They ain't selling dinner and a lodge. They are selling animals.
In all fairness, they are selling "opportunity", the hunter doesn't have to pull a trigger and take an animal home.
 

Wiszard

Long Time Member
Messages
9,429
When they list the tip fees, I walk.
That is exactly what I thought...aren't tips derived from the service provided? Good service + good tip. Bad service = bad tip. If they know they're getting a tip, what is the incentive to provide good service?
I will never pay $20,000 for a hunt.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
In all fairness, they are selling "opportunity", the hunter doesn't have to pull a trigger and take an animal home.


Ya.

Dude can eat a $20k tag plus tip.

It's harder to criticize Deseret.

It's the gold standard for how the program hit sold to us
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
29,222
You Can't Take it With You Wisz!

I'll Bet MJ Likes a Good Tip!

That is exactly what I thought...aren't tips derived from the service provided? Good service + good tip. Bad service = bad tip. If they know they're getting a tip, what is the incentive to provide good service?
I will never pay $20,000 for a hunt.
 

bucks

Active Member
Messages
206
CWMU were the end of public hunting in the state of Utah,I know of one in Wasatch county that has only 4500 acres.They get elk and deer tags.Someone mentioned 10.000 acres not so!Another CWMU I know of, has bidders bid on there permits and a 5 year lease for the hunting rights for that unit.

I do not agree with the program,I also agree that they should have to bid for our permits,And there season should be held to the same dates as public hunting.
Do any of you remember back when this movement started people were going all over the state with petitions to sign,
DON PAEY WAS ORGANIZER OF ALL OF THIS,IMAGINE THAT,
So there are your deep pockets!!
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
That is exactly what I thought...aren't tips derived from the service provided? Good service + good tip. Bad service = bad tip. If they know they're getting a tip, what is the incentive to provide good service?
I will never pay $20,000 for a hunt.
I will Wisz. And, I’ll buy you one too.

Right after I win the Powerball Lottery.

And, we’ll give the maids, cooks, guides, wranglers, biologists, and the vets ridiculously large tips……….. and then book for next year on the way out the gate.

That’s an iron clad promise!!!!
 

Wiszard

Long Time Member
Messages
9,429
DC....hopefully Mrs 2lumpy is ok with you spending your retirement on lottery tix. I expect to see the receipts for your twice a week purchases. We need another elk trip soon!
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
5,262
Oh I make the trip to Fruita, anytime it hits 250 million. Four hours, 225 miles. There’s a group of us ole boys here in town that saddle up and head out fairly often. We spend $70 on fuel and $10 each for snacks, an $3 for a Powerball or Mega Million number. We retell the same stories every trip. Some times we trade stories and I get to be the cowboy with the big hat and the hot pistol and the others guys get to be the first round draft pick or the bouncer at the Dew Drop Inn. Beats the heck out of arguing about the price of conservation tags.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
CWMU were the end of public hunting in the state of Utah,I know of one in Wasatch county that has only 4500 acres.They get elk and deer tags.Someone mentioned 10.000 acres not so!Another CWMU I know of, has bidders bid on there permits and a 5 year lease for the hunting rights for that unit.

I do not agree with the program,I also agree that they should have to bid for our permits,And there season should be held to the same dates as public hunting.
Do any of you remember back when this movement started people were going all over the state with petitions to sign,
DON PAEY WAS ORGANIZER OF ALL OF THIS,IMAGINE THAT,
So there are your deep pockets!!


👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,432
CWMU were the end of public hunting in the state of Utah,I know of one in Wasatch county that has only 4500 acres.They get elk and deer tags.Someone mentioned 10.000 acres not so!Another CWMU I know of, has bidders bid on there permits and a 5 year lease for the hunting rights for that unit.

I do not agree with the program,I also agree that they should have to bid for our permits,And there season should be held to the same dates as public hunting.
Do any of you remember back when this movement started people were going all over the state with petitions to sign,
DON PAEY WAS ORGANIZER OF ALL OF THIS,IMAGINE THAT,
So there are your deep pockets!!
"CWMU were the end of public land hunting in Utah"
bucks
Am I reading that right, because I am pretty sure I was hunting on public land last year and last I heard Utah was like 75 percent public.
 

deadibob

Very Active Member
Messages
2,609
berryb, I’ve been told the same thing, regarding how much outfitters make. ie; not much per hunter. This came from a person I know well, that is not an outfitter but works in the hunting industry and while he’s not employeed by any outfitters, he spends hundreds of hours interacting with a lot of different owners of outfitting businesses.

One day we were on a trip together and he was telling me about an outfitter that amongst other hunts, sold over 150 cow elk tags per year. I was impressed. I said, wow, that’s a lot of money at $1,600 a pop. He laughed. “Not really”, he said

I said, “well, I know he doesn’t pocket the entire amount, how much does he net, off a cow elk tag “.

He broke down the costs, there were far more expenses than I expected, especially the fees paid by the outfitter to the government besides the typical business operating expenses and fixed costs. I wish I could accurately recall what that break down was, but it left very little, $150-$200 per hunter, barring any unforeseen, unexpected costs as I recall.

That’s not a lot per hunter. A lot of folks get a chunk of those high cost elk tags, not just the outfitter.

I know how much I want to get paid, per day, and so does the guy doing body shop repairs, the guy that repairs my fridge, the guy that fixes my teeth, the guy that rents me his aluminum boat, the guy who remodels my house, the guy who sells me a Big Mac, and on and on. The reality is, everything is expensive, outfitter fees are no exception.

My son took his wife skiing this weekend. Lift pass we’re $180 each. Golf green fees in Baniff, Alberta are up $299.00. Both locations are top of the line resorts, I grant you that but apparently Deseret’s hunts are of similar high end quality.

View attachment 64775

You can ski for less and you can golf for less but you dang sure can’t ski or golf cheap, no matter where you go.

berryB, your apparently in the outfitting business, would you be interested in breaking down the costs to someone like you, that is selling Utah elk hunts.m? Might be a surprisingly revealing reality.
That $299 green fee is in Canadian dollars so that's about tree-fiddy in U.S. dollars :LOL:
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
"CWMU were the end of public land hunting in Utah"
bucks
Am I reading that right, because I am pretty sure I was hunting on public land last year and last I heard Utah was like 75 percent public.

60, give or take. Minus what the CWMU landlocked.

They were the beginning of Utah becoming a corporate hunting paradise
 

BrowningRage

Long Time Member
Messages
3,717
In all fairness, they are selling "opportunity", the hunter doesn't have to pull a trigger and take an animal home.
I agree outfitters do sell "opportunity"... AT AN ANIMAL. In fact, it's a guaranteed opportunity, that's why it costs $25k.

The access, the lodge, the 'experience' of being on the ranch... All of that would garner a few hundred bucks per night, if not for the ANIMAL that is out there waiting to be harvested.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,330
I agree outfitters do sell "opportunity"... AT AN ANIMAL. In fact, it's a guaranteed opportunity, that's why it costs $25k.

The access, the lodge, the 'experience' of being on the ranch... All of that would garner a few hundred bucks per night, if not for the ANIMAL that is out there waiting to be harvested.

I have to disagree.
I guided on Deseret for 10 years, there has never been a "guarantee" on anything except the tag.
You're still hunting wild free range animals there.

If anyone is looking for a "guarantee", you go to a high fence ranch.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
I have to disagree.
I guided on Deseret for 10 years, there has never been a "guarantee" on anything except the tag.
You're still hunting wild free range animals there.

If anyone is looking for a "guarantee", you go to a high fence ranch.

Slam.

That YEARLY guarantee of a tag, is where the money is.

No one is saying Deseret is high fence.

I'm betting in 10 years, youre not guiding 10 different guys.

And I'll also bet your client also plays the draw, before using Deseret as a fallback

No guarantee tag, Deseret becomes Hardware Ranch
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
8,330
Slam.

That YEARLY guarantee of a tag, is where the money is.

No one is saying Deseret is high fence.

I'm betting in 10 years, youre not guiding 10 different guys.

And I'll also bet your client also plays the draw, before using Deseret as a fallback

No guarantee tag, Deseret becomes Hardware Ranch

I may have misunderstood his comment.

I thought he was implying hunting Deseret is a guaranteed animal, in which it is not.

I knew he didn't say Deseret was a high fence, exactly why I clarified it's not a "guarantee", only the CWMU tag itself is a guarantee.

I haven't guided there since about 2015, but I doubt things have changed much.

Most clients there book several years out and are also repeat customers, most of which pay these prices to avoid public draws.
Its has actually gone to mostly corporate type clientele like UnderArmour and celebrity types.

Pretty fun place to experience nonetheless.
 

bugleb

Active Member
Messages
296
Just think. There was a time when you could have bought the whole ranch for a mere $6,000,000.

By the way, I drew a public cow tag there a few years ago. The way they handled it made it the worst elk hunt I have ever been on.
 

highfastflyer

Very Active Member
Messages
1,558
Just think. There was a time when you could have bought the whole ranch for a mere $6,000,000.

By the way, I drew a public cow tag there a few years ago. The way they handled it made it the worst elk hunt I have ever been on.
Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel eh?
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,640
The vast majority of Deseret’s guaranteed tags are not sold at $25k a piece like listed by the OP. They are sold to corporations and extremely rich dudes in sets as leases. (6 deer tags, 5 elk tags, 5 pronghorn, etc for $xxx,xxx) Those numbers may not be exact…it’s more illustrative to how the lease program up there works than giving specific exact details. The one off $25k elk tag is much less common anymore. They still have some, but not many compared to what they sell in large leases. Cam Hanes doesn’t buy a Deseret tag each year, but Under Armour buys a lease. You get the point.

And I know Hoss knows this, but the way it’s talked about above it isn’t really clear: the landowner and outfitter on Deseret are not the same person, and the outfitter pays a HUGE amount of money to get the rights to those tags from the landowner. Of course the return on their investment is still good or they wouldn’t do it anymore. Basic business principles, and no different than others that make money off public resources. Outfitters are not unique in this.

I’m for the CWMU program generally. I think there are downsides to it, but I think there are benefits to it as well. There are some good ones, and some bad ones. But generally, I’m supportive of the CWMU concept.

Someone mentioned United Sportsmen above. That group ran us out a large portion of private land up Chalk Creek that our family had basically exclusive ability to hunt back in the 80s. It was a mule deer paradise, at least that’s how my brain remembers it 30+ years later. They came in flashing money and the landowner let us know we didn’t get to hunt there anymore right before I got to start actually hunting deer myself. We’re never going back to how it was in the 80s. The world has turned, for better or for worse.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
7,762
The vast majority of Deseret’s guaranteed tags are not sold at $25k a piece like listed by the OP. They are sold to corporations and extremely rich dudes in sets as leases. (6 deer tags, 5 elk tags, 5 pronghorn, etc for $xxx,xxx) Those numbers may not be exact…it’s more illustrative to how the lease program up there works than giving specific exact details. The one off $25k elk tag is much less common anymore. They still have some, but not many compared to what they sell in large leases. Cam Hanes doesn’t buy a Deseret tag each year, but Under Armour buys a lease. You get the point.

And I know Hoss knows this, but the way it’s talked about above it isn’t really clear: the landowner and outfitter on Deseret are not the same person, and the outfitter pays a HUGE amount of money to get the rights to those tags from the landowner. Of course the return on their investment is still good or they wouldn’t do it anymore. Basic business principles, and no different than others that make money off public resources. Outfitters are not unique in this.

I’m for the CWMU program generally. I think there are downsides to it, but I think there are benefits to it as well. There are some good ones, and some bad ones. But generally, I’m supportive of the CWMU concept.

Someone mentioned United Sportsmen above. That group ran us out a large portion of private land up Chalk Creek that our family had basically exclusive ability to hunt back in the 80s. It was a mule deer paradise, at least that’s how my brain remembers it 30+ years later. They came in flashing money and the landowner let us know we didn’t get to hunt there anymore right before I got to start actually hunting deer myself. We’re never going back to how it was in the 80s. The world has turned, for better or for worse.


So, you're saying the state set up a corporate hunting system, in which the availability of guaranteed tags every year bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars? For which the state gets a fraction of?

Seems like a system set up decades ago, needs to be looked at.

Lots of could be conservation dollars that could be captured by an underfunded DWR.

Perhaps, the state should let the CWMUs bid for a SET number of tags each year. Let the high bidder, win. But better yet, the DWR wins every time. They have, the tags, which is what brings the cash.

Not the DWR job to hold down inflation, nor to create profit for a private corporation.
 

bucks

Active Member
Messages
206
As I stated in post #83.
I should of worded it THE BEGINNING of the end of hunting in Utah as we once new it!:confused:
 

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