Down or Synthetic

WVHUNTER

WVHUNTER

Very Active Member
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Going on a 10 day Alaska Dall sheep hunt next year. I know the down sleeping bags provide more warmth for the weight but if they get wet they lose their insulating properties and are difficult to get dry.

I have heard horror stories about down bags getting wet and not drying out the entire hunt.

I will be carrying the bag in a pack.
 
I have been using a down bag for a very long time and like the down qualities---warmth, lighter, more packable. I bought a synthetic bag last year to experiment with and very disappointed with its thermal capability and it does not pack worth a darn. So, recommend a down bag all the way. With respect to a wet bag, your sleeping bag should not get wet, if there is one piece of gear that you must keep dry its your bag. I know you referenced AK, but you must keep your bag dry at all cost. Between a good tent, waterproof compression sack, you must keep your bag dry regardless of where you are hunting, its just one one of factors you must prepare for and see that a wet bag does not happen. We got hammered by rain on our NM elk hunt this year, rained first 6 of the 9 days we hunted, rained hard at times, a wet bag never was an issue.

WP

PS- I am open to synthetic suggestions as I am thinking about a new bag, however the 15 degree Kelty I bought last year had me cool in 40 degree temps and does not pack very well at all.

"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"
 
I don't worry so much about rain, river crossings, tent condensation or things like that getting my bag wet (although it can certainly happen). I would worry more about accumulation of moisture in the bag throughout the hunt. Especially if you are wet, your clothes are wet, temps are low, humidity high, and there isn't enough time or sunlight, or a heat source like a stove in the tent, to dry a down bag out properly on a regular basis.

I have never been on a sheep hunt, but here is a link to a fellow who did one this year:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3324899/1

On page 3 he talks a bit about his sleeping bag experience. The Kifaru Slick bag he talks about has been getting some good reviews.
 
My philosophy has always been that if there is a reasonable chance that your high quality goose down could get wet enough to be useless and you don't have a good plan "B" then you have to go with the synthetics.

It can certainly be done with down but what's a few extra ounces and a little more space for peace of mind when you are out there on the edge.

The moisture accumulation won't be a problem if you can open the bag up and let it air out in the sunlight for an hour or two every other day. Of course that assumes that you will have some sunlight.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
If you go syn make sure it's a good one, the Kelty is on a lower scale and will work for normal camping but like those in it's class, is optomistic on temp rating and bulky.

Northface would be my starting point, good bags but at 62in normally a little tight if you have to crawl in clothed and wet. They do have a goliath bag.

ID makes a great high end bag. Don't know much about them.

Montbell super stretch for roomy and well built. Cost is fairly low, bulky and weight a factor but will do what it's supposed to.

The Slick bag has the best features, roomy, light, compacts. You pay for the features, but again worth it.

I'm getting one, either the montbell or the slick bag. Something big enough to crawl into if I break my leg and am totally wet. And yes this happened to me this year elk hunting, it's not too comfortable having hypothermia and your leg broke at the same time, shaking and such.

Kent
 
The Kelty XP bags use Climashield and are not low end. In fact, the military is using them and so far I think they are good bags. Climashield is a continuous fiber polyester very similar to Wiggys Lamilite but lighter and more compressable. Climashield is also what Kifaru uses in the Slick bag for insulation.

The North Face has a couple of models worth looking at but I think there are better examples of best in class synthetic sleeping bags on the market.

I am still a little suspect of the Kifaru (quoted as if you were fully dressed including boots) and Montbell temperature ratings.

Check my site for a full list of recommended bags and ones I am currently reviewing.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
He didn't say XP, they don't come in +15, probably the tundra a 60.00 bag, low end. The XP compares with the NF cat's meow type bag, same girth. I was talking outloud as we all are and explained myself and what I'm looking for. It might relate to hunting in Alaska for 10 days.

Wiggy's may be alright for car, boat, snowmobile, horse, ect and some backpack them but there are much better options for the price and weight. The slick bag is just as roomy at 66 in girth, weighs 2 lbs and is 300.00. Wiggy's claim, jump in with boots on.

I understand climashield, laminate and polar guard, all continuous fillament, 60 in fibers overlayed, from doing some DIY projects. Making a true sleeping bag is beyond what I want to try. When NF came out with climashield neo it was supposed to be more like down, now there are some questionable reports on it so I'm staying away from that, they are too narrow for my use anyway.

Montbell dosen't use climashield but has a great rep as a true temp rating. They have good insul but need to be quilted adding weight, they make them like their down bags. The SS bags expand to 70 in girth allowing plenty of room.

Integral Designs makes a bag that I've not looked at.

Not alot more options with syn bags for packing 10 days in alaska. I would want something warm and big in case I have to crawl in it at any time, the best bag there is if my life depends on it.

Probably the slick bag.

Kent
 
Ok Wade, I looked at your site. You are endorsing the Wiggy's bag and the ID. I know the ID bag has a great rep but for me is too narrow at 62 in like the NF and others.

Are you recomending packing a 5 lb bulky wiggy's bag or is that just for non backpacking uses?

For the weight, bulk and price I would take the technically better montbell bag over that for packing.

Kent
 
Down all the way. The weight and insulating values are much higher than any synthetic. First off it is fairly hard to get a bag wet enough to effect the insualting factors in a noticable way. Synthetic bags retain 60% of there heat insulating abilities when wet. Goose down retains only 40%. For me neither is a viable option if they get that wet. Get yourself a quality waterproof compression sack and a good goose down bag and it will breathe better for you when its warm or clammy, and keep you warmer in cooler weather. If you do decide to go sythetic (which I wouldnt recommend) get a bag with a continuous filament fiber such as polarguard or climashield. My suggestions: montbell, northface, or marmot all great quality bags.
 
First, let me clarify. Tiger Woods gets paid to endorse products or used to. I don't. I recommend products based on my own reviews and testing. If I accepted money to promote a piece of gear I would lose my objectivity and independence and be no different than any other gear tester out there.

I have humped the Wiggys bag all over creation and stuffed a lot of wet patients in them over the past many years with no ill effects. There is a lot of safety margin in those 2 extra pounds. They offer dependable/resiliant loft and overbuilt construction.

If I am going to be operating on the ragged edge without a safety net then I prioritize loft over weight. However, I concede that some of the Wiggys bags are overkill for some situations and I would consider any of the other synthetic bags recommended and under review to match the expected environment and size requirements. By the way, that sleeping bag list on my site will be updated as soon as I am done testing those other bags this winter.

While I prefer continuous filament insulations (Climashield, Polarguard and Lamilite) the Primaloft bags are also pretty good, especially the Integral Designs.

The Montbell bags are innovative and made well but are pretty wispy and a little agressive in the ratings department in my experience. Great for fastpacking and ultralighting but not my pick for hard use. The Slick is probably a happy medium I think.

Wiggys and Integral Designs will both make a wider bag for you if you are willing to pay a little extra.

Again, those are my opinions based on my own field testing.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Jetsled-If you have to lay in your bag wet (regardless of how it got wet) I bet you'd appreciate having that extra 20% of warmth from a synthetic bag. That 20% could mean the difference between walking out or being carried out. An Alaskan 10 day hunt could be the ultimate "I think we're alone now experience". When the fading sound of a SuperCub falls silent to the blaring sound of your innner self saying "mistakes are not an option". You realize that your mind and your gear are what is going to keep you alive. While I agree that there is a time and a place for the lite is right frame of mind I would choose the synthetic for this scenario. Mistakes, accidents, failure all can happen out on the mountain, but with planning we can alleviate the severity of our calculations made at home. More rain than snow that time of year- synthetic gets my vote. This is the way I was taught. Yes, I to am a Wiggy's abuser. 16 years and counting with my 0 degree bag,40 degree desert bag and a liner(before the FRTRSS System). I going to sleep now under the warmth of my DOWN comforter. 0% chance of rain.CDN
 
Endorse was the only word that popped into my mind instead of push, which was definately not the right word. Promote would be better, to be more correct.

I looked harder and ID does make a 'Broad' at 67", thanks for that info.

If I wanted a big, heavy, military style syn bag system, with no draft collar, Wiggy's would be the top one, maybe the Slumberjack Gamma. I recently looked into them and asked wiggy's a few questions and got no answers, only condecending remarks. The main thing is their weights. They list 3 lb, 4 lb or 5 lb. They must round down to the lowest lb, I asked if they could take one and weight it for me, blown off.

Montbell gets great ratings on the backpacking sites and the loft seems substantual, most consider them a hair under WM. Definately one of the most advanced bags tech wise with the SS. They are heavy and bulky also in synthetic. Would be nice to compare the loft with the Wiggy's, see which has more.

Wade, maybe you can tell me what the real life loft and weight is on the Wiggy's so I can compare.

Kent
 
20 deg is what I'm looking at here in Az but plan to go to Ak in 2011 so if you have a 0 deg I may just go that way, or at least look. Thanks.

Kent
 
Thanks for the comments guys, also thanks for the brand recommendations, gives me a starting point.

I like down also but on this trip I won't have a backup plan B so I think I will go with the synthetic, less chance for things to go wrong.

Outfitter rcommended a synthetic bag and a therma-rest pad, I saw on Hardcore's site where he recommended the therma-rest pad so I will be looking at those.

Will need a good pack but I have seen hundreds of posts about packs so I just need to look at some for myself.
 
I applied them universally because the fills described above are all a polyester fill. Hence them being all in the same boat. Besides primaloft which is actually a hydrophobic type fill, they are all bunched together. My only problem with primaloft is it is a fairly fragile type of fill. It breaks down a lot easier than other types of fill and altough very warm per ounce, not very lofty. I do appreciate your expertise CDN but I can tell you if you ever laid in a WET bag that was only retaining 60% of your heat you would probably die. I have been to the factories and dealt with the designers and manufacturers for years and I think most would disagree with you. Any hardcore hiker or mountaineer will tell you to go with goose down. If your really worried about getting it wet get a dry bag. The only advantage to the synthetic in my opinion is it will dry faster, thats it!
 
Jetsled,

You did not tell me where you got those numbers. Regardless, you can't apply them universally because manufacturers use the materials differently, treat them differently and use different thicknesses. For instance, sometimes the poly fibers are much thicker and courser or they are treated with silicone or double layers are used. Also, wet is a relative term. If you are going to try to tell me that a down bag that has been thoughly drenched is going to insulate the same as one that has been only partially soaked and that number is 40% then I call BS.

Way too many variables including temperature differentials to make that kind of generalization and I don't buy the numbers anyway. So, please direct me to the source of that data so I can read for myself. Lastly, I am a hardcore backpacker and I don't agree with you.


Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
The information is correct. Check around, you'll find out. We have gone rounds before Wade. I dont see any reason to beat a dead horse, but I think you might need to broaden your horizons a little bit. You seem to have tunnel vision for all the prodcuts you use, there are better options out there.
 
Ah, yes. The always reliable and infinitely definitive "check around" source. I was hoping for something a little more authoritative like Kansas State University, Natick, or the Hohenstein Institute.

Look, my original advice on the subject is sound and proven for the vast majority of people. You want to go with down in every situation thats cool with me. You might just be able to pull it off over a lifetime in the outdoors but I think it is irresponsable to sell the idea to others. I have personally seen the results of and had to clean up after the inappropriate use of down insulation. Further more, there is a reason why the military spec ops community is still using synthetic insulation over down in non-arctic environs.

Lets just agree that generally speaking wet down is significantly less thermally efficient then wet synthetic insulation which translates to exponentialy more danger of cold injury when you are on the ragged edge with no plan B or workable exit strategy.

If you think there is a chance of getting it wet, you have to go with a good synthetic insulation. Period.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-09 AT 11:17PM (MST)[p]How about look for yourself, self-proclaimed "guru!" The information is out there. This isnt a college paper, I dont need to site my sources.
 
There is a saying among attorneys that goes something like this, if the facts are on your side pound the facts, if the facts are against you pound the table. You quoted stats that don't sound right to me and all I asked was for you to back them up. Apparently you can't so now you're pounding the table. It doesn't take a guru, self-proclaimed or otherwise, to see that.

If you do find a source that quotes those percentages please pass it along to me. I would like to see how they arrive at and support those numbers. Always interested in learning something new.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Jetsled-I might probably die, but you'll die faster in your bag's 40% heat retention than I will in my 60% percent. I would be there to save longer- you'll simply be a body recovery.I sincerely hope this never happens to you or anyone else, but I will go with synthetic for the reasons stated above. Interesting that you bring up hikers or mountaineers. Most, if not all that I know or who have met have both down and synthetic in their personal gear to choose from. These bags all have a place for a given situation. Again, my choice for Alaska for a Dall hunt in August or September would be synthetic. My goal on every outing is to come home to my wife and 3 children. So when it comes to preparing I make my choices based on one question"what will give me the best chance of survival in the worst possible situation for that time and place" I'm out. CDN
 
I know I'm coming into this thread a little late but I have been using my down bag on high country hunts in CO and I have never had any issues with it getting wet. At 13K feet you see about any weather mother nature can throw at ya.Never a problem, but than again I protect my bag with a weather proof bag and use a light weight tent. If you are using a bivy sack, than I'd look at maybe using a synthetic bag. Bottom line is I would not let some of these self proclaimed "gear experts" sway you from a down bag. Be smart and protect your bag from the elements and you will be fine.

Mike
 
"generally speaking wet down is significantly less thermally efficient then wet synthetic insulation which translates to exponentialy more danger of cold injury when you are on the ragged edge with no plan B or workable exit strategy.

If you think there is a chance of getting it wet, you have to go with a good synthetic insulation. Period."

I don't understand how any outdoorsman worth his salt could find fault in that advice. Of course it is about protecting your down insulation, that is precisely the point there Captain Obvious. Either you can and you use down or you can't and you go with synthetic.

If you have done OK with down in wet situations then you were either very careful and deliberate or you were lucky but to say that someone else should not be swayed by solid information is silly. Sort of like saying, I have driven drunk lots of times and never had a problem, so don't let those MADD folks sway you from having a couple of belts before climbing behind the wheel. Inane is the only word I can come up with to describe this conversation.

Just out of curiousity, why do you suppose so much of the sleeping bag industry is devoted to synthetic insulation?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
KRP

Kent,

Sorry for the delayed response. The two Wiggys bags I have used most in Arizona are the Ultra Light and Super Light bags.

My Wiggys Super Light bag (rated at zero degrees) has a loft of just a touch under or right at six inches (top of the table to top of the fabric in the middle of the bag) after about 45 minutes out of the stuff sack.

My Wiggys Ultra Light (rated at 20 dgrees) has a little over 5 inches of loft measured the same way after the same amount of time.

Does that help?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I would be a little careful drawing a direct comparison between Colorado and Alaska; two very different climates.

In the words of someone who did the Alaska Dall thing last summer:

"I was using my Kifaru Zero degree Slick sleeping bag. This is just an amazing thing. I don't understand all the physics, but I can get into that bag literally soaking wet completely dressed. Soon the interior of the bag is almost unbearable, like being inside a wet trashbag. Then, fall asleep and when you wake up, friend you and your clothes are DRY, no kidding. Not so lucky with the guides down coat or bag.....I think that's where all my evaporative loss was going.....he was miserable, chasing moisture the whole trip. Leaking boots, soggy coat and sleeping bag, and weather uncooperative for drying. I'm glad I went with the Synthetics."
 
Jeesh, what did guys do before hi tec synthetics and light weight downs were invented. They wore clothes made of cotton or if they were lucky wool. They slept in a bag that probably didn't even have a tempature rating much less made of synthetics, and guess what?... they survived. HCO, I don't think anyones trying to sell down for all situations. I can promise you there are thousands of hikers and hunters who use down in severe wet conditions and are fine.
 
It it is not a question of can it be done because clearly it can be. It is a question of should it be done. Is it prudent or smart to go with down over synthetic considering experience and the situation. That is a question we should all ask when we are researching/planning a trip.

I am a fan of down, own many down bags and insulation pieces and in fact prefer it but there are times when down just isn't appropriate.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-09 AT 07:07PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-09 AT 07:06?PM (MST)

Cabin- its not even worth bringing up a valid conversation with Wade. He is always correct on every piece of advice he gives. His gear is the best, his wiggys is the best, and his advice should not be questioned by anyone.
Its all personal opinion there is no right or wrong, I will tell you what I use and how it works for me. You dont need to tell me im wrong and your advice is the best. I have been fortunate enough to use "almost" every brand of sleeping bag, tent, stove, pad, and water filter on the market and I draw my conclusions from many nights in different products.
By the way the gentleman that made the post stating that there is an article that clamied a guy went to bed soaking wet in a sleeping bag and woke up bone dry needs to think a little more logically. He did make one GREAT point though "it was like being in a trash bag!" Exactly the point I made above, they dont breath nearly as well as a goose down bag. Can you say ultimate defination of clammy?? Also the guide had goose down, coincedence I think not!

P.S. Buy a dry bag and the point is mute. Go goose down and be warm and comfortable.
 
Jetsled,

Edit all you want, it doesn't seem to help.

I had the opportunity to spend a couple of days up high on the mountain once with a legend in the Park Service. A guy with 40 years of SAR experience and more than 1000 missions. One of the things he told us was that no matter how hard we try you can't save people from themselves. I heard what he said but it took me a long time to really accept it, really take it to heart. Eventually, I learned what he meant and that he was right.

With regard to the soaking wet hunter in the Kifaru Slick bag, I beleive it. I have witnessed the same thing myself half a dozen times or more with Wiggys and Polarguard bags and I know that Jerry Wigutow has a stack of testimonials saying the same thing. It is the truth whether you believe or not.

In any event, I don't seem to be getting anywhere with you and you don't seem to think much of me anyway. That's OK. You can lead a horse to water...and you can't save 'em all.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Yes jetsled, but you are also glossing over the other points that deserve consideration:

1. His synthetic bag stayed dry and functional.
2. The guide's down bag and coat were compromised due to moisture accumulation. On their hunt, there was neither the time nor the opportunity to adequately dry their bags out.
3. He was able to wear his wet clothes to bed in his synthetic bag and allow body heat to dry them thru the night. This is not only a logical and proven phenomenon, but parallels my own real-world experience as well. Clammy at bedtime and dry in the morning - I'll take that as opposed to wet at bedtime and wet in the morning.

A dry bag does nothing but keep your sleeping bag dry while it is inside. I would be equally concerned with my bag getting due to tent condensation and/or moisture from my body accumulating in it while I slept. In a cool and wet environment like Alaska it only takes a few nights without drying during the day for the vapor expelled from your body while you sleep to reduce your down bag's ability to keep you warm. (Think cold rainy days with no opportunity to dry out your bag)

I have no doubt many hunters, guides, sportsmen, boy scouts, etc. use down extensively in Alaska with great results. And I'm sure the same can be said about synthetics. But if I was going on a trip where wet and cool conditions were the norm and not the exception, a synthetic bag would be my choice.

Just my humble opinion.
 
rradams,

He won't understand/accept what you are saying because he thinks/believes that a wet down bag "breathes" better than a wet synthetic bag.

I know the type, it has to be proven to him which is easy to do if he has the stones. If he would set up an experiment in his own backyard where he soaks a down bag in a 5 gallon bucket of water and crawls into it for the night then does the same with a continuous fiber synthetic bag the next night he would either understand and be on board or reveal himself to be completely unreasonable and hopless.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
HCO
your killing me man! Nobody is arguing that a wet synethetic doesn't have better insulating values than a wet down.Simply stated, the argument is that down bags are consistently used in wet conditions with great success. End of story! While in my pack, my down bag is protected from water and when I camp for the night it goes into my water proof tent.I have never had an issue with my down bag getting wet, even in the wetest conditions.The orignal poster knows the facts: 1) Wet Synethetic bags have better insulation than wet down bags 2)Thousands of hikers and hunters use down bags in wet conditions with great success. 3)careless backpackers with crappy gear should probably not use down bags.

Mike
 
Cabinfever,

This is how these discussions get turned aound, twisted and way off track. Please read again what I wrote about jestsled.

"He won't understand/accept what you are saying because he thinks/believes that a wet down bag "breathes" better than a wet synthetic bag."

I wrote breathes not insulates.

Let's back up and start over. I wrote to the OP-

"generally speaking wet down is significantly less thermally efficient then wet synthetic insulation which translates to exponentialy more danger of cold injury when you are on the ragged edge with no plan B or workable exit strategy.
If you think there is a chance of getting it wet, you have to go with a good synthetic insulation. Period."

I didn't say that down couldn't be or hadn't been used successfully, I just gave him the conventional, regularly taught rule. Please tell me how you can find fault or disagree with that advice.

You wrote in your latest post-

"3)careless backpackers with crappy gear should probably not use down bags."

I agree. You worded it differently but I think the message is pretty much the same as what I said. Don't you?

If you boil it down I am simply saying that if you have to ask the question, you should use synthetic.

Lastly, I do not agree that down is consistantly used in wet conditions with great success. I don't know how or even if it is possible to prove but I form my opinion based on my own experience of dealing with the public in the backcountry for many years that your assertion is not correct. Wet down insulation was often a contributing factor in the hundreds of SAR missions I have conducted.

Hey, I don't have a financial interest in this. I don't work for or profit from in any way shape or form any of the gear I recommend or promote and I have a great deal of very specialized experience on the subject. If you are not going to believe someone who is independent and objective and someone who routinely saw and had to deal with wilderness mistakes, mishaps and accidents, who are you going to believe? What or who would you accept as definitive?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
generally speaking wet down is significantly less thermally efficient then wet synthetic insulation which translates to exponentialy more danger of cold injury when you are on the ragged edge with no plan B or workable exit strategy.
If you think there is a chance of getting it wet, you have to go with a good synthetic insulation. Period."

Yes, I think this is sound advice, however, I think the following advice is where you derailed: "If you boil it down I am simply saying that if you have to ask the question, you should use synthetic." Could a slepping bag get wet? Of course it could!Could you get ledged up while hunting? Of course you could, but that doesn't mean you need to cary 20 lbs worth of climbing equipment.Use good judgement and common sense!

"Lastly, I do not agree that down is consistantly used in wet conditions with great success." All I can say is I personally know a lot of people,including my self, who use down bags from August to November in the Rocky mountains. Anyone who has spent any amount of time in the high country knows that it rains a lot above timberline. Belive what you want to believe. I agree with Jetsled. You have severe tunnel vision. You believe that your way is the only way because you are some cool self promoted wilderness athlete. I have been on your site and frankly you give some pretty sound reviews on some gear but other reviews leave me shaking my head.

"If you are not going to believe someone who is independent and objective and someone who routinely saw and had to deal with wilderness mistakes, mishaps and accidents, who are you going to believe? What or who would you accept as definitive?"

How about accepting my own experience as definative. Sorry dude, but you are anything but objective.
Apparently, you think your the only one with wilderness experience. I believe and trust my own wilderness experience, which has lead me to feel confident using my down bag on all my wilderness adventures.I also don't think it is irresponsible to suggest the use of a down bag so long as a person is aware of the consequences of getting it wet.How is it bad advice to tell someone that it is ok to use a down bag as long as they take precautions to keep it dry?

Mike
 
Well Put +1 Mike.

P.S. I never ever stated that wet down breaths better than wet synthetic. I said "down breaths better than synthetic." Assuming they were dry.
 
It would be absurd and incredibly arrogant of anyone to think that theirs was the only wilderness experience that was meaningful however, my real time, first hand view of a wide cross section of people who have gotten themselves in serious trouble is the basis for my opinion in this case and it is apparently unique. You either value it and my experience or you don't. Since you aren't the one that asked the question that started this thread I don't care one way or the other.

You said "I also don't think it is irresponsible to suggest the use of a down bag so long as a person is aware of the consequences of getting it wet.How is it bad advice to tell someone that it is ok to use a down bag as long as they take precautions to keep it dry?"

I think I made the same points in my initial response to the OP.

I said "My philosophy has always been that if there is a reasonable chance that your high quality goose down could get wet enough to be useless and you don't have a good plan "B" then you have to go with the synthetics. It can certainly be done with down but what's a few extra ounces and a little more space for peace of mind when you are out there on the edge."

That is accurate information and sound advice that neither of you seem to be able to poke holes in but let me rephrase it for you. Maybe you will like this better.

I prefer down. It is lighter, more compressable, has a higher warmth to weight ratio and holds up better to repeated use if cared for properly then good synthetic insulations. However, downs Achilles heel is that it loses its ability to insulate when wet. The wetter it gets the less it insulates and it is not easily or quickly dried in the field. I would recommend down as long as you are reasonably sure that you can keep it dry or have a good plan B if you can't.

How's that dude?

The positive in this is that you seem to have found a soul mate and kindred spirit in jetsled. Sounds like you two come from the same school of thought. Still waiting on the source of those statistics Ben. I been "checking around" but nobody seems to have a clue what you are talking about.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
These are your words Mike.

"By the way the gentleman that made the post stating that there is an article that clamied a guy went to bed soaking wet in a sleeping bag and woke up bone dry needs to think a little more logically. He did make one GREAT point though "it was like being in a trash bag!" Exactly the point I made above, they dont breath nearly as well as a goose down bag. Can you say ultimate defination of clammy??"

Sure looks to me like you were talking about wet down and wet synthetics.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
A assure you the numbers are within +/- 1-2% percent. Like I said I have dealt with technical aspects of sleeping bags for years. I dont know why you insist that I site my source. My source is numerous factories and dealer reps over the years. Is it mind boggling that someone knows and shares information that you cant find after hours of internet research?? I have told you before all my information is top of the head, not from google searches or backpacking forum internet hogwash.

Two things for you:
1.) Re-read the orignal post about the wet sleeping bags, it never states the bags were wet, it says that the clothes they were wearing when etering the bag were wet. If I was mis-understood, ok, but I reiterate the point that they breath much much better when dry.

2.) Have I given you my name at some point or what?
 
"I prefer down. It is lighter, more compressable, has a higher warmth to weight ratio and holds up better to repeated use if cared for properly then good synthetic insulations. However, downs Achilles heel is that it loses its ability to insulate when wet. The wetter it gets the less it insulates and it is not easily or quickly dried in the field. I would recommend down as long as you are reasonably sure that you can keep it dry or have a good plan B if you can't."

Wade, now that is objective.Well done! Look, I don't doubt that you have great field experience with your gear but the way you come across is that your gear and your reviews are definative....the only answer.I guess this is where jetsled and I share the same opinion of your reviews.Just positive feed back!

"That is accurate information and sound advice that neither of
you seem to be able to poke holes in............"

This is where your reviews lack luster.I have not tried to discredit your information,only point out that synthetic doesn't have to be the only option when confronted with wet conditions.The real argument on this post seems to be that someone who recommends using down in wet conditions is giving bad advice. This is the only thing I disagree with you on.If you are objective, as you claim you are, you would have posted
the review quoted above in the begining and let the OP, who I'm sure is a responsible adult, decide for himself.

Best, Mike
 
Forgive me if I don't take your "top of the head" or "check around" data as gospel but if it is common knowledge it ought to be pretty easy to substantiate. I think you either SWAGed it or just plain pulled it out of your butt. Let me know if you find it though, you certainly have me wondering and I have several sleeping bag manufacturer contacts that would also like to know what in the world you are talking about.

Ah yea, Ben, aka [email protected]. You emailed me a few months ago and told me you were from Boise and said what a cool site I had.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
In post #4 I said "My philosophy has always been that if there is a reasonable chance that your high quality goose down could get wet enough to be useless and you don't have a good plan "B" then you have to go with the synthetics. It can certainly be done with down but what's a few extra ounces and a little more space for peace of mind when you are out there on the edge."

Then

In post #38 I said "I prefer down. It is lighter, more compressable, has a higher warmth to weight ratio and holds up better to repeated use if cared for properly then good synthetic insulations. However, downs Achilles heel is that it loses its ability to insulate when wet. The wetter it gets the less it insulates and it is not easily or quickly dried in the field. I would recommend down as long as you are reasonably sure that you can keep it dry or have a good plan B if you can't."

The underlying message is the same in both Mike. We went through all this only to have you agree with me in the end. You did the same thing on the sleeping pad post a few months ago. I tell you what, how about I agree to be more precise earlier in the thread if you agree to be a little more lenient with your interpretations of what I write and we can both save some time. Deal?

And lay off the "self proclaimed gear experts" crap too will you. Those are your words not mine. I built a respected gear site from scratch based soley on my personal experience and opinions, I am a Gear Editor for a hunting magazine and I moderate this gear forum but never in all of that writing have I ever proclaimed or held myself out as an expert.

I think we are done with this one.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Wade,

Just curious, when would you choose to run a down bag over synthetic??? I mean I can see the reason on like a Kodiak or SE AK goat hunt or even out on the Alaska Peninsula where wet weather with high humidity and damp condtions is the norm. However, often sheep hunting in Alaska's interior can be and generally is warmer and drier, granted it can rain 10 days straight but that can happen just about anywhere. I'd think a dall sheep hunt would be an ideal application of a down bag so long as you gotta solid tent and a waterproof compression sack for it while its in your pack. Just wondering why you'd rather use a synthetic over down on such a hunt.

Thanks
 
I'll let Wade answer for himself, but even just the chance of continuous rain on that type of trip would push me towards a synthetic bag. With 10 days in the Alaskan interior, no great plan B, thousands of dollars invested in the trip, etc, I would want everything possible in my favor. The few extra ounces, larger packable size, and less breathability associated with a synthetic bag would seem a reasonable tradeoff, at least to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-09 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-09 AT 01:18?PM (MST)

Thanks for the reply RR. As my name implies I live in Alaska and hunt sheep regularly. Humidity and general weather conditions are not nearly as wet as other parts of the state such as SE AK, Kodiak, and Alaska Peninsula as I stated early. Just be cause its in AK doesn't mean its any more extreme than other parts of the country such as hunting Rocky Mountain Big Horn. I think people get caught up in the whole "its Alaska land of extremes" which is true, but fail to realize that its also similar to the lower 48 in many ways. I use a Wiggy's bag for my coastal goat hunts and I really like it. However, I also packraft all summer in the interior of Alaska up thru the middle of August (sheep season) and use a 40 degree down bag at only 23 oz. If you are packrafting whitewater on remote river, the chances of getting your bag wet would be expotentailly higher than what the average sheep hunter would encounter. However its as simple as a waterproof stuff sack and a good tent will cure this.

Heck google Buck Nelson. He did a 1,000 mile trek across the Brooks Range a couple summers ago during an extreme rainy summer. He chose a feathered friends 40 degree down bag. In fact the only reason I don't run a down on the coast is the humidity is often such that NOTHING dries out during an entire 10 day hunt. The interior of AK is vastly different. If I were coming to AK for a sheep hunt I'd get a Montbell Spiral Down Hugger #1 at 2 pounds and 15 degrees and affordable at $299 or less at times.

However, I do make a compromise of carrying heavier synthetic insulating layers (ID Rundle jacket and Mountain Hardwear Compressor Pants). Reason being the chances of my insulating layer getting wet is much higher as I wear them outside the tent often glassing in the rain under my rain gear for hours on end. While my down bag will be waiting for me in my dry tent or is stuffed inside my waterproof stuff sack.

Of course I live here so my sheep hunts I don't have as much invested I guess. But you better believe come August I hope to be packrafting my sheep out with a down bag in my pack. :D

Whatever you choose get in the best shape possible and enjoy your hunt.
 
Alaska_lanche

Good posts and a fair question. Sorry for the delayed response. Spent the day on the mountain testing the new EL Swarovision binos glassing for Coues.

I choose my gear according to the situation anticapated erring a little on the conservative side of things. Despite a background of high risk activities like, mountaineering, rapelling out of helicopters and plucking people out of flash floods I am not much of a gambler. I am OK with risk as long as I can control it with solid preparation and skill. I like to have the odds on my side.

If I were going to be on the river I would go with synthetic because of the increased chance/danger of getting it wet. Even with waterproof stuff sacks or dry bags accidents happen. Besides, depending on the type of boat or raft being used the difference in size and weight of synthetic insulation over down would not be an issue. Same thing goes for packing in by mule or quad or a fly in drop camp. Weight/size/compressability is not an issue so why chance it.

If I were doing an ultralight backpacking trip with a partner and could split the weight of a tent then I would most likely go with down. Weight and warmth to weight ratio is an issue here so I would carry down and work to mitigate the risks.

If I were mountaineering or doing alpine work in the winter then the only water I am really concerned about is perspiration, condensation, and spilling my Ramen soup or pee bottle so down would be my choice. Acceptable risks, easily mitigated.

If I were doing one of my Arizona late season bivy hunts where I never take a tent and when I do use a sleeping bag it is a half bag coupled with a bivy jacket then I would most assuredly go with syntheitc insulation. It gets cold here and we can get several feet of snow out of a storm but the temps won't often stay below freezing for long so thaw, slush, sleet and wet snow are an issue. Despite my best efforts it is possible that my gear could get wet. I am usually very remote so a quick retreat back to the truck would not be an option. That would be a problem if it were down so I choose synthetic.

For me, it comes down to these questions for every trip-what are the chances my insulation will get wet? If it does get wet what are the potential consequences and what are my options? I prefer down but my decision is driven by the answers to these questions when I am planning my trip.

I have to tell you that I am surprised that my position on this matter is so controversial. It is pretty standard wilderness 101, Winter Emergency Care, Mountain Rescue Accreditation, NOLS ciriculum, Mountaineering Freedom Of The Hills type stuff. Sounds to me like you go through a similar process with your different outings.

I got an email this afternoon regarding this thread and I thought they made a pretty good analogy. Using down in wet conditions is like climbing Everest without oxygen. It certainly can and has been done successfully but it takes care, skill and competance and even then things can go badly with dire results. Like I said, I am not much of a gambler. I like to stack the odds in my favor and sometimes that means a little more weight and a little more space for synthetic insulation over down.

What do you think?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
>I choose my gear according to
>the situation anticapated erring a
>little on the conservative side
>of things. Despite a
>background of high risk activities
>like, mountaineering, rapelling out of
>helicopters and plucking people out
>of flash floods I am
>not much of a gambler.
> I am OK with
>risk as long as I
>can control it with solid
>preparation and skill. I
>like to have the odds
>on my side.
>
>If I were going to be
>on the river I would
>go with synthetic because of
>the increased chance/danger of getting
>it wet. Even with
>waterproof stuff sacks or dry
>bags accidents happen. Besides,
>depending on the type of
>boat or raft being used
>the difference in size and
>weight of synthetic insulation over
>down would not be an
>issue. Same thing goes
>for packing in by mule
>or quad or a fly
>in drop camp. Weight/size/compressability
>is not an issue so
>why chance it.
>
>If I were doing an ultralight
>backpacking trip with a partner
>and could split the weight
>of a tent then I
>would most likely go with
>down. Weight and warmth
>to weight ratio is an
>issue here so I would
>carry down and work to
>mitigate the risks.
>
>If I were mountaineering or doing
>alpine work in the winter
>then the only water I
>am really concerned about is
>perspiration, condensation, and spilling my
>Ramen soup or pee bottle
>so down would be my
>choice. Acceptable risks, easily
>mitigated.


Wade,

I agree with your statement above. The OP stated he was going on a dall sheep hunt for 10 days out of a backpack, which would basically an ultralight backpacking trip in which he'll likely be sharing a tent just like you described as one of the times you'd be OK with going with down, so not sure why you suggested going synthetic.

I often hunt very remote its hard to hike many places in the lower 48 and get over 20 miles away (as a crow flies) from atleast a road/trail of some sort. Yes I realize there are exceptions. I'll be packrafting (packing my little raft) on a 150 mile trip this summer and plan on again taking a down bag. The risk of getting a bag wet is mitigated by a eVent dry bag. Its fallen in the water when I had a synthetic bag in it and it worked well enough to feel confident with a keeping a down bag in it.

Like I said I agree there is a time and place for a synthetic bag and as I stated I run a Wiggy's bag for those purposes. I think we just differ on when those times are. Like I said I always run synthetic insulation layers cause the likely hood of it getting wet is much higher than my bag. Seems like a good compromise between the two and I could no doubt use the insulation layers as part of my sleep system if something ever happend.

Basically it just comes down to what people view as acceptable risk. That will always vary person to person, just find what your risk level is for a given hunt and go with it. Granted its hard for those that haven't been to AK on a sheep hunt to really get a feel for what to expect to a degree. Being as you require a guide to hunt sheep anyways up here in AK I'd ask him what he feels might be the best choice for the particular area you plan on hunting.
 
alaska_lanche

That's the thing, I did not recommend one insulation over the other.

Starting with post #4 I have suggested through out this thread that the OP has a more important question to consider. That big question is can he keep it dry or not. The answer to that question should determine the answer to the question of which insulation, down or synthetic, to use.

Right? No one with the OPs best interest in mind would recommend using down insulation if the OP himself thought that it could get wet.

Everybody can suggest all they want about what down or synthetic bags he should use or the products and techniques he could use to keep his down dry but they can't answer that big question for him.

Only the OP and his Guide can answer that big question based on the details of the trip they are planning and their experience.

I didn't tell him which insulation to use. I gave him solid, proven, tried and true information based on my training and experience to help him make the decision himself. If you can keep it dry then down. If you aren't sure you can keep it dry and you don't have a good plan B then synthetic.

Or, put another way, even if you aren't sure you can keep it dry but have a good plan B then down.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Wade,

True I realize you never actually suggested the OP use synthetic. But you did mention if you were going on a lightweight backpacking trip while sharing a tent weight you'd bring down and that is basically most dall sheep hunts in Alaska entail.

Reasonable chance of getting wet various greatly person to person of what is actually reasonable or not. Just giving you what little experience I've gained actually sheep hunting up here in AK. Granted I don't have near the experience in SAR or gear in general as you do. But after 25 years of living in AK I'd like to think my experience on this issue counts for something. I realize stuff happens and there is always the unforseen. However, I can't see it being too risky on the down issue for an August sheep hunt. Temps RARELY get down to 20 degrees for sustained periods of time.

I think we both can agree that the OP needs to contact his guide and find what he views as what the reasonable chance of the bag getting wet is. Its hard to speculate and ultimately the guide is going to be the one hunting with him so I'd think he'd have the biggest say. :D

Oh yeah, how'd ya like to new ELs??
 
Take the variables out of it because while we could surmise all day long we don't have all the information or details. Without the details the basic advice I gave him is sound. Agreed?

The new EL Swarovisions are awesome. Would like to say the best I have ever used but want to wait for side by comparison to my other favorites.

Merry Christmas.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
+1 alask_alanche...I was hoping someone from Alaska would chime in.

HCO, go back and read my posts. I never said your advice was not sound, but I will argue that your advice is not definative or objective as you seem to think it is. Ok, maybe you were objective towards the end of this thread, but only because I encouraged you to do so.You must have the wrong guy on the pad argument....I don't believe I was in on that thread.
 
Very early in this thread, before you encouraged me, I said in post #4 "My philosophy has always been that if there is a reasonable chance that your high quality goose down could get wet enough to be useless and you don't have a good plan "B" then you have to go with the synthetics. It can certainly be done with down but what's a few extra ounces and a little more space for peace of mind when you are out there on the edge."

That is not objective? Where is the biased there? And as for definitive, that is about as rock solid as it gets. I did not make that up. It was taught to me, my experience reaffirms it, I believe in it and have adopted it as my philosophy on the subject.

I am very up front about and make no apologies for my opinionated views on certain debatable things like which synthetic is best, the best hunting caliber or liberal vs. conservative politics, blonde or brunette but this is not one of them. The information in that post is proven and unassailable. However, there is lots of room to discuss the techniques and products to keep goose down dry and effective in adverse conditions.

Wet down is bad. Figure out a way to keep it dry or use synthetic insulation. It is stunning that I have to defend such a basic principle with so much vigor. How about we switch to something less contentious like global climate change or health care reform.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
When I started talking to references for this hunt the first thing they told me was that I wasn't going to get a lot of information from the outfitter, that he was old school and didn't worry much about gear. He did recommend synthetic and when I asked about a tent he said I didn't need one.

One hunter told me he brought a tent and was given a bivy bag and told to leave the tent at base camp. Another hunter said he slept in an old prospector's cabin part of the time and under the stars part of the time. Depending on what direction you were sent there were streams to wade or rafts to ride. With this information I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about keeping the bag dry. So I went to Cabelas and bought a North Face 0 degree bag with climashield.

If I was Jeff Foxworthy or the Realtree crew I could just land on top of the mountain and and all the gear would be there for me. But I'm not so everything isn't going to be predictable but that is part of the adventure.

Thanks again for the info and it was helpfull.
 
Hey man, best of luck to you. I wish you a safe and successful hunt that you will treasue for a lifetime. Please let us know how it goes and post some pics.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Well there ya go man. If the guide suggests it, it would be in your best interest to plann accordingly. Especially if not sleeping in a tent and under the stars in a bivy. Bivys are known for creating condensation which make a down bag clammy IME.

Like was mentioned before by Wade and myself. There is a time and a place for down, but sleeping out under the stars in a bivy isn't one of them. If you were going to sleeping in a quality tent then I'd go down, but not in a bivy. Look at the bright side though, the weight difference between a down and synthetic as well as the volume is more than made up with the fact that you won't be sleeping in a tent. Personally I like a little refuge out of the wind/rain when I'm sheep hunting, but you'll have a great time regardless I am sure.

Merry Christmas and good look with chasing the sheep come August.
 
Your living the dream!That will be a hunt of a life time.Good luck!

Oh and I love this quote from your references;"first thing they told me was that I wasn't going to get a lot of information from the outfitter, that he was old school and didn't worry much about gear."
 
I have been trying to decide on a new bag for a while know. As a matter of fact I called wiggys today with some questions. So after reading this I have definatley decided on a synthetic. What would be the better bag? A Kifaru slick 0 degree or the wiggys 0 degree super lite? I will be doing minimal back packing in mid oct-nov, in places like colarado, new mexico, and arizona. We also have a fly in float trip in alaska planned for sept. I am kinda leaning toward the kifaru because of the weight, but looks like wiggys has some advantages to.
 
I will give you my take on the differences as I understand them although I have much more experience with Wiggys. Wiggys (Lamilite) and Kifaru (Climasheild) are both continuous fiber polyester insulation (which is preferable) still produced, as far as I know, by the same company.

Wiggys uses a thicker, more robust configuration and coats the fibers with silicone. In my opinion and based on my experience the Wiggys bag you mentioned is very durable and resiliant in that it can take quite a beating. Stuff it/unstuff it as much as you want and you can leave it stuffed forever and it will come back to its original loft. Drag it through the mud, throw up on it, bleed in it, deficate in it, urinate in it or whatever then wash it properly and let dry and it is as good as new. I have one that is still serviceable after 17 or 18 years and I have used it hard. It is overbuilt. It is a tough bag which is why a lot of rental shops and the military uses them. However, they don't compress like the Slick and are heavier too.

Both are great bags but designed differently. Wiggy is a character (some would say I am being very generous in that description but he has always taken good care of me as a customer) but he knows his product and has been successful for a long time with those bags which have stood the test of time. Patrick Smith is kind of a legend in the business and spends a great deal of time in the field developing and creating products. There is a lot of solid history behind both products.

If I were going to backpack and weight/space were a concern I would probably go with the Slick. If weight and space were not an issue then you could go with either one. If you needed something that you were going to use hard and absolutely positively needed it to stand up to the abuse or mistreatment then the Wiggys is my recomendation.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I had a 20 degree synthetic north face bag and froze to death in Canada inside a tent with a kerosene stove. I got a 0 degree Wiggys size wide and tall even though I'm regular size and made it great on my Wy wilderness hunt in a tent with a wood stove.
You can't hunt if you don't sleep well. I love down but only for day hunts like in a duck hunting jacket where I can change at the end of the day. Why take a chance? All my hunting gear is waterproof why not include the sleeping bag in the rain equation?
flyingbrass
cold dead hands
NRA Life Member
 
what about a down sleeping bag for mon wed and fri and a syn for tu and thur on a week long hunt?

:D
 
Marmot makes great bags, the never summer is a 0 degree and its awesome and you can compress it way down with a good waterproof sack.
 
I had a 20 degree Northface that I used to sleep in a canvas tent and it was too cold. Upgraded to the Wiggys 0 degree and it is awesome! Only had it for one year but I like it so far.
flyingbrass
cold dead hands
NRA Life Member
 
I was faced with your same decision last year at this time when I drew an AK dall sheep tag. I ended up out in the "boonies" for just shy of 3 weeks and never had a problem.

I ended up buying a high quality down bag with a semi-"waterproof" outer. It rained a bunch on my trip and I never had a problem...nor even a close call.

I packed my down bag in a waterproof wetbag and slept on a super light weight neo-air pad below so my bag was never in contact w/the ground.

If you use a top quality tent that will shed water that is just as important as your bag. I had a bomber-proof tent w/footprint and never had a spec of water inside my tent. Obviously don't wear any wet clothes in your bag nor place anything wet near your bag! Go out of your way to be careful and us all precautions. You will do fine w/a down bag if you have a quality tent and other gear to stay high and dry!
 
There seems to be a lot of quarreling going on this post rather than helping out a guy on his sheep hunt!

You may want to get a better feel for where you will be sleeping at night? I would be in direct contact with my guide and talking to references to get a feel for what I will be up against if I were you! I just noticed in 1 of your posts that you may be sleeping in a bivy or tent or cabin,,,it is kind of up in the air? I would definitely not use down in a bivy. You have virtually nowhere to protect and dry your bag plus gear from the elements with a bivy. Everything is exposed and things may gradually get wetter and wetter! Although a bivy is light...where do you cook, etc...you'll always be exposed! Obviously day trips up the hill for an over night or 2 may be ok..but 10+ days in a bivy?

If you are certain you will be sleeping in a Hilleberg or other high quality tent you will have nothing to worry about with a down bag and dry bag unless you are careless and don't take precautions. If you spend time in a cabin it will be easy to lay out your down bag and clothes, gear, bag to dry.

Every pound you can shave off your back is a plus on a sheep hunt. Do yourself a HUMUNGOUS favor and beg, borrow, or buy a scale to weigh every item on your list. You will suprise yourself how much weight some of your gear weighs and how much you can shave by upgrading clothes and gear. I shed about 15 lbs off my gear by upgrading to lighter, less bulky gear.

I weighed every shirt, pant, sock, and even underwear to see where I could shave ounces...they added up! I bought a new tripod and spotting scope that shaved a couple lbs off my weight. Even bought a new rifle that shaved another 1 1/2 lbs! As you can see, weight adds up in a hurry!

If you have any specific questions I would be glad to try and help [email protected]
 
Anyone use the new Western Hunter sleeping bag made with Lamalite fiber. I know it a basecamp style bag but Have anyone use one.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Is it everything they say it is. Does it have any bad qualilty that you see. I know it has a bunch of good things going for it but what is the bad you see in it. Post here or PM is ok by me thanks


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
First let me say that I like it so much that I have given my Butler Bag away.

I have used it in temps that range from upper fifties to the mid teens so far and the bags layering feature provides for a great deal of flexibility. In the mid teens I was under all of the layers but was right on the verge of putting one of the top layers underneathe me so I feel like with all the layers on top of me I could easily handle zero degrees or even lower. The Wiggys Lamilite works very well, just as well as in the Wiggys bags except that it is even better because you have multiple layers. Let's just say it is warm.

The flannel linning requires that a tosser and turner like me has to sleep naked or at most with a slick pair of bike shorts lest I get all caught up and tangled. Personally I prefer a slick interior but that is very much personal preferance.

It is a big, roomy bag which is really nice but remember that there are going to be parts of the bag where you are not (feet) so it is going to have some cold spots not because it is not insulated well enough or allowing cold air in. It is a big bag and it will be warm where there is something to make it warm, take that away and it will be cold so it is somewhat ineficient. Not bad and easily cured by throwing a Nalgene bottle or two full of hot water in the bottom before you rack out.

I really like the internal bottom pad sleeve. I leave my Thermarest Camp Rest pad in it all the time and just open the valve and roll it up altogether when I am done.

I like the attached cover and chinch straps and appreciate the protective cover bag.

My only gripe if you can call it that is that it needs a collar to conform around your neck. When it is cold the only part of me that has been exposed is my neck and shoulders, remember above where I said that I sleep naked or mostly naked, but until that is remedied you can wear a fleece top or roll up an insulation layer and cover your upper torso. That's what I did. Other than that, it is a nice bag but a big, heavy bag. It has become my truck/camp bag of choice.

And in anticipation of someone bringing up the Sportsmans Wharehouse version as a cheaper but capable alternative I say that is total and utter BS. I went out and specificly purchased the SW bag to see what the poster was talking about and was totally underwhelmed. It is a glorified kids sleepover bag at best and it does not even rate a comparison to the Western Hunter bag.

How's that?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Thanks Wade
I'm looking for another bag and I think this one will be the one for my grandkids and me to use, Don't want them to get cold and start hating camping.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
For what it is worth. I have a great Wiggy two bag system that I have used in alaska 1 or 2 times a year for 4 years. It is an unbelievable bag. There were very few times that I felt cold.
Just got back yesterday from one of those trips from hell as far as weather in Alaska goes 12 days of rain, wind and snow. I took a new bag to try because I have 2 sheep hunts this fall and I don't want to pack a 6lb Wiggys. The bag I used was a Marmott Lithium memebrane rated at 0 degrees. I am tall so the large model weighs just under 3 lbs. I took a polypropelyne liner from REI weighs a couple of ounces. The bag was so warm I slept in shorts only with it unzipped a little most of the time. Never been in a bag that warm. Used the liner a couple of nights but it was to hot with it. Had a great bomb shelter tent but still everthing was wet. The bag may be my new favorite. I will say again I have never been that warm in those conditions. The bag was a little wet after the second day but that did not seem to bother the warm factor at night. It is trips like this that make me think I will not go back but time heals. The Marmott is pricey but I would highly recomend it. The membrane version is water resistant
 

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