Dwindling Deer

BrowningRage

Long Time Member
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Got a little bored today and started to look at some deer numbers in the Book Cliffs. Curious what some of you may think of these numbers and how they affect the deer population there, and likely elsewhere in the state.

The deer population objective for the unit is 9000 according to the DWR webpage. They are reporting a current number of 4550. Adam Eakle did a story a couple months ago about the deer herd dwindling in the Book Cliffs and said the population dropped from 7700 in 2015 to 4500 in 2019, a loss of 41.5% in just 4 years. How do we lose so many?

According to the DWR, the Buck to Doe ratio in the Book Cliffs is currently at 33 bucks for every 100 does. If we take that 100 does + 33 bucks we get a group size of 133 deer. If we believe there are 4550 deer in the Book Cliffs, that gives us roughly 34 groups of 133 deer. 34 (number of groups) x 33 (bucks per 100 does) then we estimate there are roughly 1129 bucks in the Book Cliffs. (Personally, I can find that many with my eyes closed in just one morning, just sayin...)

This year, there are 248 total buck deer tags for the Books. That is roughly 22% of all bucks in that unit. (what do you think of that?) If we account for the DWRs report of a 74.5% harvest rate, then 187 bucks will be killed this year. (what do you think of that harvest number, high, low?) Ultimately, the DWR anticipates 16.6% of all bucks in the Books will be harvested this year. What's more, that 187 bucks accounts for only 4% of the total deer population in that unit.

Part of me feels like that is a really low number of the population being harvested each year and we would probably be happy with it, if the herd was in good shape. I would assume that with 3421 does running around, they'd have enough fawns to replace those harvested by hunters and then some. But I think we are all thinking the same thing, hunters are not causing the decline in this unit.

41.5% population drop in just four years. Even if the 4% yearly harvest added up to 16% of that over four years, there is still another 24.5% decline to account for. That would assume there are only enough fawns born every year to replace those bucks harvested, and they would all have to be buck fawns to boot. We know that's not true. But I digress.

I truly hope biologists can make some very good findings and then have the cajones to report accurately what is killing off our herds. We can't fight what we don't know is there. Aside from predators and winter kill, anybody want to venture other ideas of the decline in that unit.?
 
Great research. I have no input on that area and know nothing of it. But I will say we are seeing rapid decline in my neighborhood. It's not a trophy area. But I feel it's definitely over hunted and cwd is present. The winters have been mild. Not sure what to think but I sure hope the game and fish really start doing something with all mule deer in the country before they are gone. Thanks for shedding some light on that unit.
 
you really can't kill off a population with buck hunting no matter how aggressive you get at it. backing off the number of tags can help, but not as much as one might hope.

most of the problems in the Book Cliffs are related to degraded range. Drought & horse overpopulation are the primary drivers and those things can't necessarily be "corrected" easily. having a surplus of non-breeding bucks can actually make this worse rather than better

AFAIK, winter kill hasn't been an issue there as it's been in northern Utah.

the DWR (by legislative fiat) has been directed to put most cougar units in unlimited quota (predator management) but don't be surprised if this has little impact.

pray for rain and get rid of some of those horses - short of that tinkering with the tag numbers won't do much
 
you really can't kill off a population with buck hunting no matter how aggressive you get at it. backing off the number of tags can help, but not as much as one might hope.

most of the problems in the Book Cliffs are related to degraded range. Drought & horse overpopulation are the primary drivers and those things can't necessarily be "corrected" easily. having a surplus of non-breeding bucks can actually make this worse rather than better

AFAIK, winter kill hasn't been an issue there as it's been in northern Utah.

the DWR (by legislative fiat) has been directed to put most cougar units in unlimited quota (predator management) but don't be surprised if this has little impact.

pray for rain and get rid of some of those horses - short of that tinkering with the tag numbers won't do much
Well stated.
I wish all lefties had your common sense.
 
It's almost never a single factor.

I am not running counts nor am I DWR employee in the Books. However I am a wildlife biologist and I do have experience specifically with managing mule deer.

First, population counts are horribly inaccurate. That's the truth. Cervids are usually somewhat closer in accuracy than things like felids or migratory birds. But those counts are heavily flawed. I don't care what someone else says he is full of 5hit. However you can produce pretty good trend data if you deal with your counts in a very meticulous manner. Basically what I mean is you should be able to get a general idea of population swings as long as very good records are kept of factors at the time of the counts and the methods of count do not vary at all from year to year. Also counts should be completed annually. This horse crap of doing a count every 4 or 5 years is garbage and effects your science negatively.

Just as important as your population counts is forage density and diversity studies. These should be done seasonally over multiple areas.

Last stop trying to find middle ground with the idiots. Two things come to mind right off. Horses and lions. Yall have let yourselves get pushed and manipulated into failed management strategies of these animals and the wildlife AND YOU have suffered.

Step 1 go shoot all the damn horses. Jerk the bandaid off. You think a bunch of agencies that ain't got a nickle to help your deer are gonna spend more than a few phone calls trying to chase down leads on 50000 dead horses in a single winter. You got better odds of getting killed by the rona.

Second, starts shooting female lions. THATS MANAGEMENT. ALLOWING HARVEST ON A PREDATOR AND THEN TRYING TO ONLY KILL MALES ISNT CONSERVATION. ITS HUNTER MANIPULATION! That's right. Some cute little lion kitten will freeze to death after it's loving mommy lion took a bullet. Welcome to the reality of wildlife management. Tough 5hit cuddly kitten, we manage you too. Quit treating these animals like they are your neighbors or some pitiful Somali kid with flies buzzing around his face making you feel guilty for eating your double cheeseburger.

Start there then start lighting some fires. That will get you a little ways moving in the right direction.
 
Rain and snow is needed, do habitat improvements, get rid of the horses, shoot more lions and bears, shoot more cow elk and wait 10 years. I bet they are shooting more than 4% of the deer, seems low.
 
One strategy I wish they would try as the hunting opportunity has decreased is issuing a few hundred, 5 day archery only tags in many of these premium units with traditional archery equipment ie no compunds, fancy sights or technology accessories. The harvest rate was traditionally only about 7% with traditional archery equipment but it opens up a whole lot more opportunity for hunters and would raise a big revenue stream. They could also have several hunts to spread out the hunting pressure. If they did this statewide then thousands could participate and have an outdoors experience with little to no impact on the resource.
 
Its terrible management and greedy decision makers who are destroying multiple units....Example is Thousand Lakes unit...this unit used to be LE and was average at best with some decent bucks. This unit never had an over abundance of deer! The total number of tags given out was a total of 40, this was counting archery, muzzle and rifle. So what do you think the DWR did? how about make it a general unit hunt and give away TEN times as many tags....400! This has totally destroyed this unit!! thanks DWR and everyone else involved. What a joke!
 
Hey BR?

I'll Give You The Advantage of Having Your Eyes Open & We'll Compare Actual Numbers in a Daylight To Dusk Run During the Rut & We;ll Compare the Number to the 1129 Bucks You Claim To See in one Morning with Your Eyes Closed!

There's 50+ Reasons Why!

Until That is Realized You're PISSIN In the Wind!

50+ Years Now of PISS POOR DEER Management!

Is it gonna Change?

Stick around it'll get Worse!
 
Got a little bored today and started to look at some deer numbers in the Book Cliffs. Curious what some of you may think of these numbers and how they affect the deer population there, and likely elsewhere in the state.

The deer population objective for the unit is 9000 according to the DWR webpage. They are reporting a current number of 4550. Adam Eakle did a story a couple months ago about the deer herd dwindling in the Book Cliffs and said the population dropped from 7700 in 2015 to 4500 in 2019, a loss of 41.5% in just 4 years. How do we lose so many?

According to the DWR, the Buck to Doe ratio in the Book Cliffs is currently at 33 bucks for every 100 does. If we take that 100 does + 33 bucks we get a group size of 133 deer. If we believe there are 4550 deer in the Book Cliffs, that gives us roughly 34 groups of 133 deer. 34 (number of groups) x 33 (bucks per 100 does) then we estimate there are roughly 1129 bucks in the Book Cliffs. (Personally, I can find that many with my eyes closed in just one morning, just sayin...)

This year, there are 248 total buck deer tags for the Books. That is roughly 22% of all bucks in that unit. (what do you think of that?) If we account for the DWRs report of a 74.5% harvest rate, then 187 bucks will be killed this year. (what do you think of that harvest number, high, low?) Ultimately, the DWR anticipates 16.6% of all bucks in the Books will be harvested this year. What's more, that 187 bucks accounts for only 4% of the total deer population in that unit.

Part of me feels like that is a really low number of the population being harvested each year and we would probably be happy with it, if the herd was in good shape. I would assume that with 3421 does running around, they'd have enough fawns to replace those harvested by hunters and then some. But I think we are all thinking the same thing, hunters are not causing the decline in this unit.

41.5% population drop in just four years. Even if the 4% yearly harvest added up to 16% of that over four years, there is still another 24.5% decline to account for. That would assume there are only enough fawns born every year to replace those bucks harvested, and they would all have to be buck fawns to boot. We know that's not true. But I digress.

I truly hope biologists can make some very good findings and then have the cajones to report accurately what is killing off our herds. We can't fight what we don't know is there. Aside from predators and winter kill, anybody want to venture other ideas of the decline in that unit.?
It’s not only the Dwr Biologists having the stones to accurately report and advocate change, as it is the crooked A&$ SFW infused Clown Sh?# show circus which is commonly referred to as Utah’s Wildlife Board actually listen to our biologists and just not to a Non Profit consultant whose last name rhymes with Gay Day
 
Here are two of the many problems on the Books!

BC CATS 2021.jpg


BC BEAR 2021.jpg
 
predator control, predator control. Anymore, I have more lions and bears on my trail cameras than I do deer and elk. Let's don't forget that coyotes probably kill more deer each year than lions.
 
Another aspect that needs to be addressed is the amount of cows on the range. Go down any canyon or any where cows have been and there is no feed anywhere. Cows should be allowed but on dry years the cows need to limited and moved around so all the animals have feed. Pressure should be put on the BLM and state so they watch the permitees who have cows on the land to have feed for all.

The photo was taken last week showing the difference between an area that is protected from cows. No feed outside the fence plenty inside the fence.
20210924_123325.jpg
 
Another aspect that needs to be addressed is the amount of cows on the range. Go down any canyon or any where cows have been and there is no feed anywhere. Cows should be allowed but on dry years the cows need to limited and moved around so all the animals have feed. Pressure should be put on the BLM and state so they watch the permitees who have cows on the land to have feed for all.

The photo was taken last week showing the difference between an area that is protected from cows. No feed outside the fence plenty inside the fence.
View attachment 53712
Do you have any idea how many more cattle and sheep were out there 50 years ago?

..and....we all think private is better
 
Do you have any idea how many more cattle and sheep were out there 50 years ago?

..and....we all think private is better
And none of us were around 100 years ago. Information I have seen suggests that would make today look like hobby farmers.

We (humans) have screwed this planet up so bad,it's amazing anything is alive. Haha.
 
And none of us were around 100 years ago. Information I have seen suggests that would make today look like hobby farmers.

We (humans) have screwed this planet up so bad,it's amazing anything is alive. Haha.
for sure....100 years ago was a free for all.....you could run as many as you were big enough to run...AND.....when you moved them off you lit what was left on fire.....
 
you really can't kill off a population with buck hunting no matter how aggressive you get at it. backing off the number of tags can help, but not as much as one might hope.

most of the problems in the Book Cliffs are related to degraded range. Drought & horse overpopulation are the primary drivers and those things can't necessarily be "corrected" easily. having a surplus of non-breeding bucks can actually make this worse rather than better

AFAIK, winter kill hasn't been an issue there as it's been in northern Utah.

the DWR (by legislative fiat) has been directed to put most cougar units in unlimited quota (predator management) but don't be surprised if this has little impact.

pray for rain and get rid of some of those horses - short of that tinkering with the tag numbers won't do much
Spot on Sir, you understand it ?
 
I have not been in the book cliffs over the years. My one and only trip was last year for a cow elk muzzle loader tag. I was surprised how few deer I saw and zero big bucks. Do people agree with the number of 4550 deer????
 
I have not been in the book cliffs over the years. My one and only trip was last year for a cow elk muzzle loader tag. I was surprised how few deer I saw and zero big bucks. Do people agree with the number of 4550 deer????
They use a "model" to come up with their numbers and it's definitely not realistic.
 
you really can't kill off a population with buck hunting no matter how aggressive you get at it. backing off the number of tags can help, but not as much as one might hope.

most of the problems in the Book Cliffs are related to degraded range. Drought & horse overpopulation are the primary drivers and those things can't necessarily be "corrected" easily. having a surplus of non-breeding bucks can actually make this worse rather than better

AFAIK, winter kill hasn't been an issue there as it's been in northern Utah.

the DWR (by legislative fiat) has been directed to put most cougar units in unlimited quota (predator management) but don't be surprised if this has little impact.

pray for rain and get rid of some of those horses - short of that tinkering with the tag numbers won't do much
I agree with most of this. However, cougar "management" has shown to be very beneficial to the deer herd.
 
for sure....100 years ago was a free for all.....you could run as many as you were big enough to run...AND.....when you moved them off you lit what was left on fire.....
Yep I wish I lived back then. Must have been nice……
 
My guess is that the Book Cliffs is similar to the Colo side of the border and has a major cheatgrass problem?

Take a look at this Muledeer Foundation article that states: "Many experts are now citing the number one threat to mule deer in many parts of the West isn’t carnivores, development, or disease. Rather, it’s a tiny little plant, thinner than a toothpick and much more delicate, but very tenacious. You probably have heard of cheatgrass by now, maybe even felt its seeds dig into your ankles while hunting in sagebrush country. This wimpy-looking exotic grass from Eurasia doesn’t look like much of a threat, at least at first glance, to the mule deer we pursue each autumn. But make no mistake, this invasive grass packs a nasty punch to sagebrush habitat.

Read the entire article:

Cheatgrass increases the intensity and frequency of wildfires that often burn so intense that native browse species often disappear from critical winter ranges. Cheatgrass returns in vengeance as competitive native vegetation is lost. We are finding that wildfires burn less intense and more of a mosaic pattern across the landscape where cheatgrass is eliminated.

There is a new solution for battling cheatgrass that provides long term control that dramatically increases native shrub and forb browse species that mule deer thrive on. In fact, species such as antelope bitterbrush and mountain mahogany found in critical winter ranges have been found to have a 3 to 10x increase in annual stem growth where cheatgrass is controlled.

Anyone seriously interested in increasing mule deer populations where cheatgrass is present should take a serious look at Rejuvra. I've been working on cheatgrass control for over 30 years and this is the most exciting product I have ever closely monitored. Not only do mule deer benefit, but ground nesting birds, pollinators, rare native plants...and the list goes on!
 
But Hang the HELL On!

When I Was a Kid They Were Railing/Chaining PJ Forrest's Left & Right!

How'd That Pan Out?

At the Time They Said it was the Real Deal!
 
Remember when They Claimed the Lions were the Only Problem & I Called Them on it?

They Just Keep Blaming one Thing!

When You Get 49 other Reasons in the Pile Let Me Know!

Until Then Just Keep PISSING in the Wind & See How that Fixes it!
 
Obviously there is disturbance in areas that were chained. What species often increases with disturbance? Invasive weeds like cheatgrass! Vast winter ranges that were chained near Grand Junction, Colo are inundated with dense cheatgrass stands that rob the little moisture that exists from native grass, shrubs, and forbs.
 
These photos illustrate how competitive cheatgrass is with natives for early spring moisture. The "before" photos were taken in February 2017 immediately before spraying and the "after" photos were taken at the same site in June 2017, only a few months after cheatgrass was controlled. The soil longevity of cheatgrass seed in the soil is 2 to 5 years and we are seeing excellent cheatgrass control for 4+ years with Rejuvra!

shrub1.jpg
 
Here are a few photos showing the difference in longest leader shrub growth that was monitored in untreated vs immediately adjacent areas where cheatgrass was controlled. We monitored 7 different shrub species at 6 sites in this study.

Shrub2_Page_3.jpg
 
This table summarizes data for untreated vs immediately adjacent longest leader growth data for the 7 different shrub species we monitored on 200 meter transects at 6 different locations. We worked in cooperation with the Colorado Parks and Wildlife and Colorado State University. We used several monitoring techniques they recommended for sampling and inventorying native browse species.

As you can see from the table, longest leader growth consistently increased and nearly doubled across the board for every shrub species we monitored.

Shrub3_Page_4.jpg
 
Thanks for sharing this info Jim. I read the article in MDF when I got my magazine but I have no first hand experience with it. I hope we find solid control methods for this species.
 
$42 per acre plus application cost.....helicopter at $25 minimum per acre to apply......gets spendy fast for large areas....
 
Since 2009, when my uncle drew the first Book Cliffs tag in our family, there is an obvious difference in the vegetation on the south unit today. As this is a primary winter range, I can easily see how invasive vegetation may be an explanation, and could easily effect the deer.

Great info Jim.!
 
Here's a few photos I took last week in an area that was sprayed this March with Rejuvra to control cheatgrass and an adjacent area with cheatgrass not sprayed. The growth on the antelope bitterbrush where cheatgrass was controlled is amazing!

before1.jpg


after2.jpg



aftercloseup.jpg
 
They use a "model" to come up with their numbers and it's definitely not realistic.


Like all models, they are only as good as the data plugged into them.

The DWR needs an audit of the miles on each truck yearly. There are a bunch, that barely run enough to keep the battery charged. Hard to count deer from the back porch
 
Is this where I post pics of muleys eating cheatgrass again?
Are you trying to suggest that because you have a picture of deer eating it there isn't an issue with it literally taking over the range???

Considering all the negative aspects of it even if it had some nutritional value that just seems stupid.
 
But Hang the HELL On!

When I Was a Kid They Were Railing/Chaining PJ Forrest's Left & Right!

How'd That Pan Out?

At the Time They Said it was the Real Deal!
My old granny worked for the BLM and I remember watching an area being chained back in 1983 with her. Five years ago my daughter and I found a chain in that exact area that is broken in half. Twenty-three links in one half and seventeen on the other. It's going to make for some pretty cool lawn art but I might need a tractor to get it out.:)
 
Are you trying to suggest that because you have a picture of deer eating it there isn't an issue with it literally taking over the range???

Considering all the negative aspects of it even if it had some nutritional value that just seems stupid.
There isn’t a damn bit of cheatgrass in the high country here. The pj’s where me and the deer winter has it, but not everywhere.

Jim’s has a commercial interest in spraying herbicide across the winter range. Besides being an effective advocate.

I won’t live long enough to see the end of cheatgrass, bindweed, or russian olives around here.
 
I've been monitoring deer activity via game cameras at 3 locations since December 2020 on winter range near Lyons, Colorado. Game cameras were set up in cheatgrass infested areas and immediately adjacent Rujuvra sprayed areas that are approximately 50 to 100 yards apart.

Total number of photos/day as well as # bucks, does, fawns, and % of days with deer photos was recorded. Browse visitation and utilization data was also collected at these same 3 sites.

The following table summarizes monthly data for the 3 sites. On average there were 2 to 3x more deer photos taken by cameras set up in areas where cheatgrass was controlled with Rejuvra. Mule deer showed a preference for early season forb/shrub growth rather than green cheatgrass in March through April 2021. Cheatgrass dried out by early June 2021.

gamecampics graph_Page_5.jpg
 
I also monitored deer tracks in the snow at monthly intervals on the same 200 meter transects using 1 meter square quadrats at the same 3 sites where game cameras were set up.

The table below is a summary of the January data collected at the 3 sites. Similar to the game camera data there were 2 to 3x more tracks in the quadrats/transects where cheatgrass was controlled.

gamecampics graph_Page_6.jpg
 
I would be glad to meet Bluehair and others that are interested in viewing the amazing response of native shrub, forb, and grass species where cheatgrass is controlled for personal tours. We have sprayed over 3,000 acres and our biologists, ecologists, and forestry personnel are all impressed! In Wyoming they are literally spraying thousands of acres of cheatgrass, ventenata, and medusahead via helicopter.

I can pretty much guarantee you will be amazed when you see the striking contrast on a personal tour. The best time to view these is in the winter to see for yourself how mule deer concentrate in the areas cheatgrass is controlled. We have some monster muley bucks on our properties that concentrate in areas we have controlled cheatgrass. Another great time to view sites is in the early spring when the foothills are full of color with native flowers. Please send me a PM and set up a personal tour to see this for yourself.
 
I would be glad to meet Bluehair and others that are interested in viewing the amazing response of native shrub, forb, and grass species where cheatgrass is controlled for personal tours. We have sprayed over 3,000 acres and our biologists, ecologists, and forestry personnel are all impressed! In Wyoming they are literally spraying thousands of acres of cheatgrass, ventenata, and medusahead via helicopter.

I can pretty much guarantee you will be amazed when you see the striking contrast on a personal tour. The best time to view these is in the winter to see for yourself how mule deer concentrate in the areas cheatgrass is controlled. We have some monster muley bucks on our properties that concentrate in areas we have controlled cheatgrass. Another great time to view sites is in the early spring when the foothills are full of color with native flowers. Please send me a PM and set up a personal tour to see this for yourself.
I thought you only hunted Region G in Wyoming?
 
Please don’t get the idea I like cheatgrass. I’ve pulled a pile of the stuff out of my socks, and I hate the fire danger it poses in June.

I have no doubt you use a wonderful product. Unfortunately Jim Shockey doesn’t even have enough money to treat the whole world.

Of the 50 or so things on the the bobcratbess hell right rap, cheatgrass wouldn’t even make the top 10 of things that are wiping out mule deer.

But if you want to bring some of that magic stuff down here to test, I have plenty of cheatgrass I would like dead. :)
 
Please don’t get the idea I like cheatgrass. I’ve pulled a pile of the stuff out of my socks, and I hate the fire danger it poses in June.

I have no doubt you use a wonderful product. Unfortunately Jim Shockey doesn’t even have enough money to treat the whole world.

Of the 50 or so things on the the bobcratbess hell right rap, cheatgrass wouldn’t even make the top 10 of things that are wiping out mule deer.

But if you want to bring some of that magic stuff down here to test, I have plenty of cheatgrass I would like dead. :)
And now back to our regularly scheduled programing. :rolleyes:
 
“Of the 50 or so things on the the bobcratbess hell right rap, cheatgrass wouldn’t even make the top 10 of things that are wiping out mule deer.”

Of course, emperical data is all we have to determine if it’s one of the top 10, or not. It may be a much higher contributor on the list than we think.

The point is we don’t know and what’s even more frustrating is THEY don’t know. THEY stated THEY don’t know........ for the last 30 years.

It seems the whitetail States did their research and found out how to grow whitetail...... the mule deer States have not and THEY freely admit THEY have not.

50 reasons, or a 100, it matters not if you don’t intend to do anything about it, you will never spend the money or the time to develop a solution. And...... it’s blatantly clear, based on our lying eyes and ears, that THEY do not know and THEY are not going to spend the money or the time to learn or develop a solution.

This is the exact opposite approach the whitetail States did, when they very nearly lost all of their whitetail deer, some 50 years ago.

So far THEY’LL hardly admit there has been a monolithic decline in mule deer populations. So far, it’s simply an issue with drought. When that passes, it will become of too much snow. This based on historic mule deer State’s past responses.

If habitat lose was ever a legitimate concern and the millions upon million THEY have and continue to spend on it, then it seems cheat grass on the winter range and the BLM lands is a critical issue.

Just because JimS is posting about it doesn’t make it incorrect. And, because it’s a products that he has helped test and other family members have helped develop and market, why should he be badgered for sharing some, potentially, good news. (Badgered my not be the correct term but the tone of the responses does infer some concerns beyond a open discussion on the treatment.)

New products, of all kinds, in all industries, are prohibitively expense when they first come to market. We’ve all seen what happens to the price of great products when they mature in demand and their effectiveness becomes well know. I’m guessing this cheatgrass treatment will, if it proves to be as effective as JimS believes it is, eventually be much cheaper to apply that it is now, during it introduction period.

But...... all emperical on my behave, so you may well be justified in your views on the matter.

Have a great week Blue. I enjoy your daily comments and pictures.
 
I would put cheatgrass in the top ten due to the loss of feed and habitat destroyed by fire that is directly related to cheatgrass. Once a wildfire is started the cheatgrass makes it run so fast that huge swaths of land are burned up before firecrews can get it under control.
 
Speaking of whitetails...

Yesterday I saw 25-30 whitetails and 5 muleys where I was hunting. I had no idea the whitetails were literally taking over this area.

Their numbers continue to rise in sw Wyoming..

Did I mention that elk numbers are rising? Here in sw Wyoming we now routinely see groups of 6-20 bulls in the desert. 25 years ago we saw groups of mule deer bucks with that many.

Oh...and the horses. You know, the ones that stomp out desert seeps and springs, rendering them muddy messes of a hundred horse print sized holes instead of the clear pool they once were. Thank God we're doing a roundup this month!

Let's throw in some habitat loss and a bunch of predators on top of all that.

And!!!! Let's keep killing does for God's sake!!!!

Talked to a warden the other day. Old fella; looked about retirement age. He figures the elk and whitetail have A LOT to do with the mule deer decline( which, BTW, is happening all over the west).
 
If the problem could be remedied by any single thing, I'd suppose it would be done already (maybe).
I have no doubt the lions take down deer and so do coyotes, which I've seen, and cheatgrass is bad and we build too many home on winter range and allot too many tags but I think it's all of those and more.
This isn't to say we should give up and try nothing at all but rather we need to try something long enough to see real data BUT we need real data to begin with.

Zeke
 
If the problem could be remedied by any single thing, I'd suppose it would be done already (maybe).
I have no doubt the lions take down deer and so do coyotes, which I've seen, and cheatgrass is bad and we build too many home on winter range and allot too many tags but I think it's all of those and more.
This isn't to say we should give up and try nothing at all but rather we need to try something long enough to see real data BUT we need real data to begin with.

Zeke
Exactly, and no hostile intent meant directed at you personally Zeke , but see how far you get when you make any concerted effort to get THEM to put any time and resources into collecting “real data”.

For example, to demonstrate my point, look into the whitetail research departments at a few Universities such as Auburn Univ, Mississippi State Univ. Texas A.M. and countless State funded other whitetail research facilities across the south and the Midwest.

See how far you get when you asks THEM why western States aren’t demanding and getting scientific data for mule deer research institutions. Have you ever seen Fish & Game give you that “deer in the head lights look”, from the Director down to a field biologist. Ask a Western States Legislator, it’s the same look. Ask a Western States Governor........ same, same.

No care, therefore no concern, therefore not action.

You have to care, from a position of strength and influence, both are lacking in the Western Mule Deer States.

Test me........ ask THEM why there are no MSU and AU type research efforts for mule deer, like there are for whitetails?

I have, I’ve share my experience. I’d be curious what other’s experience would be..... may be someone better than I can move the needle. Or not.
 
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My lyin eyes tell me that cars kill WAY more deer than cheatgrass does. In fact I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a deer killed by cheatgrass.

And don’t give me that range degradation nonsense, because most of the range I’m familiar with is nowhere near carrying capacity.

Except here in the cheatgrass, thistle, and bindweed fields. :ROFLMAO:

The fire comment is a good one except that we just established a couple of weeks ago that junipers were invading and causing the decline in deer numbers. Remember that?

And I have no beef with jims, other than the fact that his solution is completely impractical except on a micro scale. And I believe it is helpful to put some context around his zealotry. :)

So I suppose we’re all right or all wrong depending on how you look at things.

No offense taken, the childish name calling from the usual suspects is to be expected.
 
My lyin eyes tell me that cars kill WAY more deer than cheatgrass does. In fact I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a deer killed by cheatgrass.

And don’t give me that range degradation nonsense, because most of the range I’m familiar with is nowhere near carrying capacity.

Except here in the cheatgrass, thistle, and bindweed fields. :ROFLMAO:

The fire comment is a good one except that we just established a couple of weeks ago that junipers were invading and causing the decline in deer numbers. Remember that?

And I have no beef with jims, other than the fact that his solution is completely impractical except on a micro scale. And I believe it is helpful to put some context around his zealotry. :)

So I suppose we’re all right or all wrong depending on how you look at things.

No offense taken, the childish name calling from the usual suspects is to be expected.
I hope we have the opportunity to see. If the agriculture community is being honest, it seems there will be some future effort to find a way to combat the cheatgrass invasion, whether it will help mule deer or not.
 
My 2 tables above demonstrate that mule deer heavily favor areas where cheatgrass is controlled and high-quality shrub and forb browse species increase.

It's a well known fact that food plots attract whitetails and provide improved nutrition for both does and bucks. Healthy bucks grow larger antlers and there is a very good chance that healthy does produce healthy fawns that can survive drought, disease, and extreme winter conditions !

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if a rancher or outfitter has improved his mule deer habitat by controlling cheatgrass that deer will filter in from surrounding ranches or public land that have dense monocultures of cheatgrass. I'm certain that outfitters on private land will quickly pick up on this throughout the Western US.

Another thing I have noticed on our properties where we have sprayed large acreages of cheatgrass is that we are suddenly finding old dried out springs suddenly flowing water! Winter and early spring moisture that had been consumed by cheatgrass for years is suddenly readily available for not only native forb, shrubs, and grass....but also springs and creeks.
 
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I agree with all the posts above that there are quite a few factors why Western US mule deer are on the decline. The closer I look at cheatgrass, the more assured I am that it is a major contributor to the mule deer decline in regions infested with dense monocultures of cheatgrass.
 
Personally, mule deer are well worth restoring to past populations, where conditions make it possible, I’m all in on any and all of the 51 Hell Right things that need to be done to help mule deer. As I’ve said repeatedly, I believe they are the lynch pin to the long term preservation of Western big game hunting.
 
Another thing I have noticed on our properties where we have sprayed large acreages of cheatgrass is that we are suddenly finding old dried out springs suddenly flowing water! Winter and early spring moisture that had been consumed by cheatgrass for years is suddenly readily available for not only native forb, shrubs, and grass....but also springs and creeks.
My bullroar meter pegged on this one. It truly is a miracle product.

Clearly your cheatgrass is different than mine. :rolleyes:
 
Not too far out of your way to go have a look and report back, after an on the ground look-see.
I have my own cheatgrass and springs, adjacent to each other conveniently. I can report that they have no observable influence on the other.

Im pulling cheatgrass out of my socks right now. :) I hope y’all kill every bit of it.
 
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I have my own cheatgrass and springs, adjacent to each other conveniently. I can report that they have no observable influence on the other.

Im pulling cheatgrass out of my socks right now. :) I hope y’all kill every bit of it.
I can relate, completely. In this Utah high desert we are covered in the stuff too. It’s taken over every acre not under cultivation and irrigation in this country.
 
It's almost never a single factor.

I am not running counts nor am I DWR employee in the Books. However I am a wildlife biologist and I do have experience specifically with managing mule deer.

First, population counts are horribly inaccurate. That's the truth. Cervids are usually somewhat closer in accuracy than things like felids or migratory birds. But those counts are heavily flawed. I don't care what someone else says he is full of 5hit. However you can produce pretty good trend data if you deal with your counts in a very meticulous manner. Basically what I mean is you should be able to get a general idea of population swings as long as very good records are kept of factors at the time of the counts and the methods of count do not vary at all from year to year. Also counts should be completed annually. This horse crap of doing a count every 4 or 5 years is garbage and effects your science negatively.

Just as important as your population counts is forage density and diversity studies. These should be done seasonally over multiple areas.

Last stop trying to find middle ground with the idiots. Two things come to mind right off. Horses and lions. Yall have let yourselves get pushed and manipulated into failed management strategies of these animals and the wildlife AND YOU have suffered.

Step 1 go shoot all the damn horses. Jerk the bandaid off. You think a bunch of agencies that ain't got a nickle to help your deer are gonna spend more than a few phone calls trying to chase down leads on 50000 dead horses in a single winter. You got better odds of getting killed by the rona.

Second, starts shooting female lions. THATS MANAGEMENT. ALLOWING HARVEST ON A PREDATOR AND THEN TRYING TO ONLY KILL MALES ISNT CONSERVATION. ITS HUNTER MANIPULATION! That's right. Some cute little lion kitten will freeze to death after it's loving mommy lion took a bullet. Welcome to the reality of wildlife management. Tough 5hit cuddly kitten, we manage you too. Quit treating these animals like they are your neighbors or some pitiful Somali kid with flies buzzing around his face making you feel guilty for eating your double cheeseburger.

Start there then start lighting some fires. That will get you a little ways moving in the right direction.
Actually agree with you on this.?
 
I headed back to the property where I have game cams and exclosures set up to monitor mule deer today. I spend a lot of time each week monitoring, spraying, and researching invasive weeds on the properties I work on. I always look forward to viewing the Rejuvra treated sites because they are so awesome and I learn so much on every trip out.

There has been skepticism that controlling cheatgrass will suddenly "revive and regenerate" old decadent springs. I visited 5 springs on one of the properties today. 4 of them were running water and only 1 was not. No surprise, the only spring not running is below a giant hillside with cheatgrass that hasn't been sprayed.

I was excited to see water still running this time of year in 4 springs since we have barely had any moisture the past 2 months.

The 4 springs that are running are below areas we've sprayed 30 to 60 acres of cheatgrass. 2 of the running springs were where I just sprayed cheatgrass this winter and the other 2 running springs were where I sprayed a few years ago that still have excellent cheatgrass control. The 2 older-sprayed springs have been running year-round (except when frozen) since we sprayed the cheatgrass so that's great news for the mule deer and other wildlife! The murky water tank is a spring that just started running this spring and all the rust was recently shoveled out of the bottom.

Springs that run year-round (when not frozen) are super exciting because several of them haven't run the past 5 years until we controlled cheatgrass. A few of them only historically ran in the early spring and usually dried up from mid-summer through the winter.

Another exciting thing we are seeing on this property is the turkey population has dramatically increased since we started spraying cheatgrass. Not only is there new, year-round springs running but there is prime turkey feed available (diverse plants producing lots of seed plus bugs (grasshoppers, etc) that they feed on.

As stated several times above, there are quite a few different factors that are likely responsible for the mule deer decline across the West but controlling dense monocultures of cheatgrass is a game changer! Not only does this dramatically improve deer habitat by increasing browse and cover but also water availability.

With the loss of winter ranges by development across the West it's critical that land managers are willing to optimize the condition of the limited winter ranges that currently exist.

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I would be glad to meet Bluehair and others that are interested in viewing the amazing response of native shrub, forb, and grass species where cheatgrass is controlled for personal tours. We have sprayed over 3,000 acres and our biologists, ecologists, and forestry personnel are all impressed! In Wyoming they are literally spraying thousands of acres of cheatgrass, ventenata, and medusahead via helicopter.

I can pretty much guarantee you will be amazed when you see the striking contrast on a personal tour. The best time to view these is in the winter to see for yourself how mule deer concentrate in the areas cheatgrass is controlled. We have some monster muley bucks on our properties that concentrate in areas we have controlled cheatgrass. Another great time to view sites is in the early spring when the foothills are full of color with native flowers. Please send me a PM and set up a personal tour to see this for yourself.
Jim's, are they spraying this stuff in Utah?
 
Got a little bored today and started to look at some deer numbers in the Book Cliffs. Curious what some of you may think of these numbers and how they affect the deer population there, and likely elsewhere in the state.

The deer population objective for the unit is 9000 according to the DWR webpage. They are reporting a current number of 4550. Adam Eakle did a story a couple months ago about the deer herd dwindling in the Book Cliffs and said the population dropped from 7700 in 2015 to 4500 in 2019, a loss of 41.5% in just 4 years. How do we lose so many?

According to the DWR, the Buck to Doe ratio in the Book Cliffs is currently at 33 bucks for every 100 does. If we take that 100 does + 33 bucks we get a group size of 133 deer. If we believe there are 4550 deer in the Book Cliffs, that gives us roughly 34 groups of 133 deer. 34 (number of groups) x 33 (bucks per 100 does) then we estimate there are roughly 1129 bucks in the Book Cliffs. (Personally, I can find that many with my eyes closed in just one morning, just sayin...)

This year, there are 248 total buck deer tags for the Books. That is roughly 22% of all bucks in that unit. (what do you think of that?) If we account for the DWRs report of a 74.5% harvest rate, then 187 bucks will be killed this year. (what do you think of that harvest number, high, low?) Ultimately, the DWR anticipates 16.6% of all bucks in the Books will be harvested this year. What's more, that 187 bucks accounts for only 4% of the total deer population in that unit.

Part of me feels like that is a really low number of the population being harvested each year and we would probably be happy with it, if the herd was in good shape. I would assume that with 3421 does running around, they'd have enough fawns to replace those harvested by hunters and then some. But I think we are all thinking the same thing, hunters are not causing the decline in this unit.

41.5% population drop in just four years. Even if the 4% yearly harvest added up to 16% of that over four years, there is still another 24.5% decline to account for. That would assume there are only enough fawns born every year to replace those bucks harvested, and they would all have to be buck fawns to boot. We know that's not true. But I digress.

I truly hope biologists can make some very good findings and then have the cajones to report accurately what is killing off our herds. We can't fight what we don't know is there. Aside from predators and winter kill, anybody want to venture other ideas of the decline in that unit.?
I was told that fawn survival had dropped to 22%. If so that is why.
 
Steve Dewey with Utah State has done quite a bit of field research with Rejuvra on cheatgrass, ventanata, and medusahead in Utah. He would be a great contact and wealth of knowledge on what's going on in Utah and across the country.
 
Another aspect that needs to be addressed is the amount of cows on the range. Go down any canyon or any where cows have been and there is no feed anywhere. Cows should be allowed but on dry years the cows need to limited and moved around so all the animals have feed. Pressure should be put on the BLM and state so they watch the permitees who have cows on the land to have feed for all.

The photo was taken last week showing the difference between an area that is protected from cows. No feed outside the fence plenty inside the fence.
I am pretty upset about the cows right now. They shut down our access in Nevada to "Wilderness Areas" where no motorized vehicles can travel off road (even if there is a road there that has been used in the past) to try and "conserve" the area.

The problem is, they allow ranchers grazing rights to these Wilderness Areas. Those cows are DESTROYING prime deer/elk areas. This has happened in the last few years in a couple areas I've hunted and I've seen first hand how destructive the cows are to the land/feed.

Why is it OK for ranchers to have grazing rights on lands that are under a conservation status?
 
$42 per acre plus application cost.....helicopter at $25 minimum per acre to apply......gets spendy fast for large areas....
But the great thing about technology today is we can use GPS to identify specific spots vital to the deer. Yes treating everywhere would be horribly expensive, but with the gps data, we can focus on on specific areas of range that are the most vital.

This was a major issue for the old chaining projects. They would go chain massive areas that looked good, but for various reasons the deer simply did not use, and if the deer were not using it traditionally then no amount of habitat improvement would suddenly make them shift patterns etc.

With our new data and technologies we can make massive improvements to the core habitat areas without wasting time and energy on the fringe or areas of little use
 
Habitat, Predators, and disruption…

There are many factors hiring habitat. Horses, cattle, weeds, etc.

Predators no matter how you cut it, are an issue. Bears are far harder on deer than anyone admits. Lions sure, but when looking at fawn survival bears are a massive issue.

Lastly is just the idea that animals need minimal disturbance, ATVs, mountain bikes, oil and gas, roads, fences, drones, dogs, hikers, etc. no matter how you cut everywhere we are seeing more and more intense use of our lands.

Add all that up and there is no magic bullet. Every location and ever herd is facing a different pressure.
 
What Elks96 mentioned above about gps mapping and spraying critical wildlife habitat invaded with cheatgrass is 100% correct.

We just had over 1,000 acres mapped with RangeView to figure out where we would concentrate our cheatgrass control efforts on the critical winter range on one of our properties. It will be interesting to compare before and after satellite imagery in areas we control cheatgrass. I can already see differences that show up on google earth but rangeview's imagery is a lot higher resolution. There also is rebate that goes along with every acre you spray where RangeView has been use.


What are the benefits of using RangeView™?​

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// In-depth satellite imagery analysis.

RangeView utilizes satellite imagery and a proprietary cheatgrass algorithm to remotely identify and select infestations in pastures. You can also view historical satellite imagery to compare cheatgrass infestations in both treated and non-treated pastures.

// Streamlined treatment planning.

Digital planning tools make it easy to determine the number of acres that need to be treated and calculate how many gallons of Rejuvra will be required. Easily share your treatment and boundary file with applicators and track previous treatments and performance.

// The RangeView Restoration Pledge.

When you use RangeView to analyze your land and Rejuvra to treat it, the RangeView Restoration Pledge guarantees cheatgrass control for up to four years. We stand behind this innovative approach because Rejuvra breaks the cycle of germination and future seed production in cheatgrass for the long haul.

// $5/acre rebate on treated land.

Along with our RangeView Restoration Pledge, you receive a $5/acre rebate to cover your analysis cost after applying Rejuvra and uploading an applied treatment file to RangeView. This is another way we stand behind our treatment approach to offer reassurance.
 
Sublette County, Wyoming formed a task force to battle cheatgrass that included critical sage grouse and mule deer habitat. They had several collaborators that joined hands in this effort to establish funding for this multi-year project.

I've enclosed an excellent PDF from Sublette County, Wyoming's program with illustrations on how they have gps mapped cheatgrass on their critical sage grouse and mule deer habitat. Also included is maps of several thousand acres they have sprayed in these areas.

In the pdf it explains how they herbicide and labor cost-shared with local private landowners. Also available was equipment to help landowners to spray infested sites.

https://sublettecountyweed.com/wp-c...batThisWeed_IntroductionCurrentActivities.pdf
 
I'm sure cheatgrass is an issue in the intermountain region, but it's not everywhere, yet. It's my experience that weeds take over because the ecosystem is unhealthy and better, native forage isn't prominent. Weeds grow where other plants don't. So, maybe prescribe burn again, and seed the hills. Then clean up the weeds with some good old fashion herbicide.
 
Roundup and Matrix control cheatgrass for 1 year. Plateau/Paramount may have 2 years control. The soil longevity of cheatgrass in the soil is 2 to 4ish years. Rejuvra controls cheatgrass for 4+ years so has enough residual control to outlast the seed in the soil. Long-term cheatgrass control and re-establishment of remnant native species is key to long-term control.

If you have ever looked at the price of native grass, shrub, and forb seed it is WAY more expensive than herbicide. Also, it may take several years to establish native seed in dry environments. Obviously some areas where cheatgrass forms a monoculture there are no natives present that are released when cheatgrass is controlled. This is one of the major reasons to control cheatgrass early before it gets to a monoculture state!

Cheatgrass almost immediately returns where we have prescribed burns. Also, many of the desirable browse species shrubs are killed by the high intensity burns through fine fuel cheatgrass stands. Where wildfires burn through areas where cheatgrass is controlled there is a more natural, mosiac burn with almost no injury to browse and shrubs.
 
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