DWR discriminating

[cactusjack7mm]

I have 3 boys 5,4 and 1. How long will it take for them to draw a quality tag? They will never draw a once in a life time hunt. They're so far behind in bonus points. I'm guessing most of their life,maybe never. It makes me very sad that my kids will never have the opportunity like most of us have had.

 

[HELL_ON_WHEELS]

Well,
If it makes you feel any better,I'm right between 40 & 50 years old & still have not drawed an le elk tag!
What you mentioned is one of the reasons I fought so hard against the TARD draw system,you're right,it ain't a fair system,but we are in to it so far now what are we gonna do?
There are Youth Hunts & some tags set aside for youth & people without MAX points,the younger generation are gonna have to be lucky to pull a tag.
Thank the UDWR for this one!

 

[tabbyhntr]

I made the decision a couple years ago that when my kids were old enough to hunt I would buy them a guided hunt or an auction tag, ust because of the fact that they'll never draw unless they're incredibly lucky. Catch is they'll each only get 1 hunt like that unless I fall into millions which like everyone else I'm not that lucky.

 

[archery01]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-10 AT 07:26PM (MST)[p]These tags you refer to are "Quality" tags because they are limited. If they made it so your kids where guaranteed to draw there would be no moose, sheep, or buffalo. I know it sucks, but if everybody drew it would be a bunch of general season tags and there would be no more ?Quality? tags. There we LE elk tags last year left over. also a handful of units you could draw with 5 or less points.

 

[shotgun1]

So how is that discriminating?

 

[HUNTINFORLIFE]

The draw system is set up so everyone has a chance at drawing a tag with half of the tags going to max point holders and half in a random drawing that dont have max points. I get really tired of people that are 40, 50, 60 years old and complain that they have never drew an elk tag. Unless they are putting in for pahvant early rifle there isnt a single elk unit that takes max points to draw. I do agree that my kids will have an extremely hard time drawing that premium class units in 15, 20 years. But there will always be those units that arent as popular and easy to kill a trophy animal. you might have to just work alot harder to find a average trophy.

 

[hossblur]

Supprised you can't buy points for kids that are under aged. DWR revenue possibility.

 

[hardhorn]

That's why changing over to a preference point system like Colorado makes more sense. Start giving all the tags to the people who have been putting in the longest and have invested the most time and money. Everybody else would have to wait in line for their turn. Why isn't this the fairest way to do it. There would be the same amount of revenue from people applying for the points they need to keep building their points. Then people get cycled through faster from the top down. If you don't want to wait as long for the best unit then put in for an easier draw.

 

[D13er]

don't worry....every square inch of the western US will be national park by the time they are old enough so it won't really matter.


great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB

 

[littlebighorn]

Discrimination would mean your kids will never have a chance.
Look at the odds sheet. Pretty much half of all the tags go to people with less than top points, and often somebody with no points draws those premium tags. My son drew a desert bighorn this year with 9 points while I missed out again with 15. Sounds like reverse discrimination to me!

 

[rowdyblueman]

The problem that I see with a preference point system is that young hunters would get discouraged if there isn't a chance to draw until they hit the higher numbers. If that happens our kids will not have an interest in the sport anyway. Isn't that why Wyoming started the youth hunts? They were finding a declining interest in hunting among there younger generations.

 

[REDDOG]

Its 50/50 now. Do you want to shoot it out like the general deer? god i dont understand people

 

[zukman]

>don't worry....every square inch of the
>western US will be national
>park by the time they
>are old enough so it
>won't really matter.
>
>
You forgot about the fact that the wolves in those national park will have killed most of the animals also...

 

[1911]

Prepare them for medical school now. If they do good, and still like you, maybe in 20 years or so they'll even buy you a hunt.

 

[Gator]

education is the key to hunting and having the money to hunt 20 yrs from now so prep your kids for it at a early age.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".

 

[elklvr]

Another fact, is for every age of young hunters that start putting in, a group of older people die, or get too old to hunt. I am sure every year we lose people who have from a few to a lot of points to either death, disability, or age.

 

[cactusjack7mm]

To everybody that disagrees with me(Archery1,Huntforlife,Shotgun1 Littlebighorn,Reddog
Lets take away all your points and you can start putting back in 8-14 years from now. How long is it going to take for you to draw a once in a life time hunt(sheep,bison,moose,pavant elk ect). EXACTLY
Ya maybe when your 60 to 90 years old. What good is that hunt if your crippled by then.

Yes or no question to all of you.

Will my kids have a reasonable chance at drawing a tag(sheep,bison,moose,pavant ect) in their younger life.


And you say thats not discrimination from you to them.

 

[hossblur]

We have special seasons for kids, why not reserve 10-15% of the tags for under 18? We have no problem handing out tags to every group and expo in the world, why not save a few for kids? They could put in for those tags, and buy a bonus point like the rest of us, when they turn 18 they can't apply for kid tags but they would still keep the points they bought so an 18 yr old would have 6 points if he put in starting at 12. I know the DWR is more interested in chasing the Dr. Austeds of the world, but perhaps we should remember that those guys are getting older and older and if we want to have hunting in 20years we might want to get the kids involved or all of the money for wildlife isn't going to mean a thing.

 

[iliveinthewoods]

If you want your kid to hunt a specific animal so much, then I would suggest putting in every state that has that animal, and stop counting singularly on utah. I don't understand why everyone complains so much too, We all know that Utah's system could be enhanced, but Utah is the wealthiest state in the fish and game department, and they won't change that. Once they got the taste of money, it can't be taken away.
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[JDC]

I have read posts like this over the years and have always resisted responding. With this response I may be just opening a can of worms, but here is my opinion. As the developer of the odds system here on MonsterMuleys and HuntersTrailhead, I work with every draw system out there. Though they all have their flaws and what is ?fair? is different to all of us, I truly believe that Utah has the best system of them all. There are three reasons I believe this:

1. It rewards those that have been applying for the longest time.
2. Anyone can draw at any time.
3. Your chances of drawing improve year to year.

If you eliminate the point system all together, items 1 and 3 are eliminated. If you go with a true preference system like Colorado, items 2 and 3 are eliminated. Using either of these systems on a high quality hunt, you could apply forever and never get a permit (just like Utah).

I presented data like this at the ISE show several years ago and thought that it might be helpful here. Using ?quality hunts? already pointed out by others in this post, I have made some comparisons between Utah?s system, the straightup system (no points) and the true preference system. I consider any moose, sheep or bison to be a quality tag, so I used the easier units to draw. If you do this same comparison on the best units, things only get worse.

In the ?Straightup? column (no point system) on the table you can see that your odds are sometimes less than 1% and seldom better than 2% and never really improve. It is very possible that you would never see a tag in this system where in some cases others may draw multiple times (which is another issue altogether). It is all luck of the draw.

The ?Pref Years? column shows how long you would be applying in a true preference system before getting a tag. A kid coming in right now will be applying for at least 40 years and in some cases hundreds of years, before ever having any chance at one of the ?quality? tags used in this example. If you can envision this, the only guys hunting these units would be 60-70 years old and they got the tags only because everyone in front of them died.

The ?UT Transition? column shows how many years you would apply before your odds of drawing are the same as or better than your odds in the straight up system. In the Utah system, a kid has a shot the very first time they apply. In the beginning their odds are really pretty bad, but as they build points, their odds improve and will eventually exceed what their odds would have been in the straight up system ? even though they are only eligible for 50% of the permits.

Although it is not perfect, I have not been able to come up with a better one than what Utah offers. You improve odds by offering more tags or reducing applicants. You offer more tags and the quality is going to suffer. Some believe that this is the way to go. Others believe that we should reduce applicants by increasing the cost of a permit. But most of us think that the cost is too high as it is. Utah offers quality with opportunity ? although I don't love hunting spikes and yearling bucks.

I am sure that there are many that disagree, but that is my opinion after years of working with all of the various systems. Sorry for the long read.

Jon
www.HuntersTrailhead.com

 

[regular_joe]

I guess i've been one a the lucky ones, when I started hunting/entering the draw there was no youth hunts. Although i was able to draw the ml300 tag once with no harvest, a CWMU that netted me a 360 bull at age 15 and two years ago an antelope tag. I have no complaints about the utah draw having been lucky three time in 10 years. I just don't like seeing all these new CWMU's show up IMO it doesn't help anything it just keeps closing off land that people once had a shot at hunting.

 

[HUNTINFORLIFE]

Im not complaining about the utahs draw system. even thou odds staying the same I have 75 people ahead of me in the big horn sheep poll and i am 25 years old. With those odds they only give 1 tag to max point holders. Ill will be 100 years old if I dont get lucky and draw the max point tag. I could increase my odds by putting in for a easier odds hunt but I want the best tag on nothing. even if that means never drawing that tag.

 

[theox]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-10 AT 11:27AM (MST)[p]>I guess i've been one a
>the lucky ones, when I
>started hunting/entering the draw there
>was no youth hunts. Although
>i was able to draw
>the ml300 tag once with
>no harvest, a CWMU that
>netted me a 360 bull
>at age 15 and two
>years ago an antelope tag.
>I have no complaints about
>the utah draw having been
>lucky three time in 10
>years. I just don't like
>seeing all these new CWMU's
>show up IMO it doesn't
>help anything it just keeps
>closing off land that people
>once had a shot at
>hunting.

how does a cwmu close off any land??? it was already private land and most people didnt let other people hunt there land anyway! now everybody has a chance to hunt those lands not just a select few. if you wanna hunt that land put in the draw for that cwmu.
i think the cwmus have opened up more opportunity to hunt. there are very few land owners that allow public access to there land if any. mostly because people dont respect it!can you blame them? they leave gates open,litter ,steal, harass livestock,whatever it be.
cwmus are a good thing!


i cant comlain about the draw ,in the last 2 years ive drawn a moose tag with 1 point and an archery elk with 5 who knows how long til i get another tag. but if you do the research there are units that have a lot better draw odds.you dont have to put in for the very best units,there are quality animals on all of the le units.


?It takes a genius to whine appealingly.?
Mr.Whiny

 

[littlebighorn]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-10 AT 12:45PM (MST)[p]CactusJack
"Ya maybe when your 60 to 90 years old. What good is that hunt if your crippled by then."

I am 60! I have put in the draws since I was 18 well before the point system, and I still have not drawn a OIL in Utah! But I am right there now. And I will keep trying til I die!
If your kids are willing to tough it out like I have, they will eventually draw too! But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater!

 

[regular_joe]

>
>how does a cwmu close off
>any land??? it was already
>private land and most people
>didnt let other people hunt
>there land anyway! now everybody
>has a chance to hunt
>those lands not just a
>select few. if you wanna
>hunt that land put in
>the draw for that cwmu.
>
>i think the cwmus have opened
>up more opportunity to hunt.
>there are very few land
>owners that allow public access
>to there land if any.
>mostly because people dont respect
>it!can you blame them? they
>leave gates open,litter ,steal, harass
>livestock,whatever it be.
>cwmus are a good thing!
>
Yeah but those who were lucky enough to know poeple who would let you hunt their private land now can't unless you draw a tag. Not every land owner is an A$$, not every land owner has livestock, yes there are those people out there that have no respect for other poeples things, but there are those who do. So isn't that discrimination too?

 

[theox]

ya but not every piece of private is a cwmu. but i see where your coming from.

?It takes a genius to whine appealingly.?
Mr.Whiny

 

[deerbedead]

Boys and girls, I can't help but reply on this one. I have six kids with the oldest being 13. Last year was the first time I had a kid old enough to hunt, and let me tell you I hunted all fall with her. We hunted elk together on a limited entry bull unit, me with a big bull tag, and her with a spike tag. What a blast! Hunted every day of the season but sundays. She hunted with me on her general muzzleloader deer hunt and had a crack at a 180" buck that was a legitimate 30" deer. Passed up a 174" buck that was killed the next day by a local guy and brought to our taxidermy shop. She said she wished she'd tried to kill it after seeing how big it was!
She drew a cow tag on a limited elk unit, and so did I. We hunted 3 more days, and we both killed cows and backpacked them both out. She made a 372 yard shot on the cow. Very fun hunt.

She drew a two doe antelope tag, and we hunted a couple more days on that area, and after killing one of them we didn't have time to go back for the second one.

She also drew a doe tag for a late doe hunt. We took the Can-Am with tracks on it and busted the snow drifts to get to the area, then she stalked does for the better part of the day with her bow and arrow. This is an any weapon hunt, and she chose to hunt with a bow. She killed a doe at 43 yards on the evening of the first and only day we hunted. Said it was awesome!

By the way, this kid passed up some pretty sweet bucks during the archery, muzzy, and rifle hunts, sticking to her goal of a 175+ buck or bust. I was proud of her to say the least.

My point in this long post is to let you know that I think you guys that claim you will never draw, and your kids will never draw either don't understand the draw system, or don't know how to play the draw game. Everyone says they will never draw an elk tag, or if they do it will be once in a lifetime. Sure it will if you only apply for the best unit in the state! I've drawn 2 limited bull tags, and 3 limited deer tags, and an antelope tag here in Utah, and I plan to draw many more of them before they plant me in the ground. I also fully expect my kids to draw tags too, and not just doe tags either. You just have to play the game a little smarter.

DeerBeDead