Dwr speaks about deer in utah

I have to agree with elk assassin if you're wanting to take a MATURE buck out here in the basin on public lands you better have did some home work and scoutlng and then with all these early hunts it'll still be a tough hunt
 
I have talked to several hunters on the Panguitch lake, Mt Dutton and Beaver unit. They all have said the deer are not on those units. Wonder if there are units that are holding all these deer?
 
I know the phavant has been hurting for a few years as well in the area we use to hunt a lot of the deer herd is gone. I have not been up there this year but my brother in law ad friends have been hunting it and they all have said it is awful. I had a archery tag on the Monroe this year and I feel like the numbers are down as well on that unit. I did see quite a few small bucks and a good amount of does but it was in a fairly small area and everywhere else I went seemed pretty spotty for deer. I'm not sure what has changed over the last 15ish years but I think these units in central Utah have been in a steady decline. I'm interested to see how everyone does on the rifle hunts.
 
Higher deer numbers the last 3 years than 25 years ago??
Now that's an all out laughable line of BS!

How can so many experienced and well seasoned hunters who have loyally hunted their favorite units all say the herds are in the lowest state they have ever seen, but the Division is saying they are the highest they've been in 25 years?

I remember the Henry's, Bookcliffs, Pahvant and Monroe 25 years ago and there were very strong deer numbers and high numbers of bucks statewide!

Total BS reporting to encourage more tag sales.
 
>Higher deer numbers the last 3
>years than 25 years ago??
>
>Now that's an all out laughable
>line of BS!
>
>How can so many experienced and
>well seasoned hunters who have
>loyally hunted their favorite units
>all say the herds are
>in the lowest state they
>have ever seen, but the
>Division is saying they are
>the highest they've been in
>25 years?
>
>I remember the Henry's, Bookcliffs, Pahvant
>and Monroe 25 years ago
>and there were very strong
>deer numbers and high numbers
>of bucks statewide!
>
>Total BS reporting to encourage more
>tag sales.


Right on PUNK!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
This article is very concerning. There is no way there are 370,000 in the state. The thing that concerns me the most is they think the deer herd is doing well and better than it has been in years. Where I feel that exact opposite. I feel like it is worse than it ever has been. Ive spent numerous days scouting and it's becoming more difficult to find mature bucks. This tells me they have no intentions of improving the deer herd. Are we all crazy?? Where the hell is all the deer?
 
I'm A Blind Bastard I Guess!







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
About 6 years ago I spoke at a RAC meeting in Beaver about concerns of the deer herd declining on the Beaver Unit. They told me and several others that voiced concern that the deer are out there, you just need to find them. This article sounds so much like that meeting. They are saying more deer now than in the last 25 years, and more bucks than utah has ever had. I can't wait to find out which units are holding all of these deer.
 
I agree with everyone in that the overall deer numbers are way down. Most units take 1-3 points to draw as it is. What suggestions or alternatives do we have? Do we propose reducing the number of tags in the units that are below objective? The DWR seems to lie when they decided to micromanage units in an attempt at better managing the unit based on the size. Wasn't that the whole reason they made smaller units and reduced tags in the first place. DWR needs to start listening to the hunters and not their so called biologists.
 
The numbers have not been correct for decades. But rather than actually address issues we have enough hunters more focused on opportunity than fixing things. The DWR can lean on those to justify not making changes. And there are not enough hunters that actually care enough and have enough spine to stand up for change. No one wants to be the bad guy and have the opportunity crowd point their finger at them. It's all pathetic!!!
 
47 Years & Counting of POOR Deer Management!

Properly Managed this State will Produce Quality Deer Hunting Statewide!

Managed like it's managed now...............................!

Well here We are!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Shootem asked for suggestions!!

Why don't we use our dedicated hunters who are passionate about the units they hunt in to do the deer herd counts. Let them form a plan with groups of hunters and actually go out in the field and make an honest count. Then a more logical decision could be made on tag numbers or even shutting a unit down.

I know that the Paunsaugunt unit became so bad that I think they closed it for 5 years. I could see this needing to be done in these southern units. It is not about shutting areas down to form trophy units, it is about shutting units down to save a deer herd.

The dedicated hunters will have the passion about their units to do the right thing, even if it means shutting an area down or greatly reducing tags. The hunters that love there hunting units see the need for changes to happen. We need the DWR to work with us and see that same need.
 
deer numbers are down in my area. easy way to help is to stop the late season tags that are killing bucks after the general hunts. good first step but lots more to be done.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-19 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]Ill belive Slam, before any new tech useing DWR flunky anyday.
As Slam said, we need to learn to hunt all over again. In my area on Dutton, iv spent 11 days scouting this year. Glassing for hours and hours. Its not been easy or cheep, driving the 181 miles to get there. The tree removal has ruined deer hunting along the east side from center canyon to cabin hollow. Hunt creek is only good for the atv riders to make dust. I took 2 days hiking and spotting the drainages from pasture troughs to second crossing in hunt creek. First week in Oct. In 2 days me and my son, all we could glass up were 17 deer between the 2 of us. 3 bucks. The best buck was a 3X4 25" wide. I have a tag along with my son and 2 grandsons for this year. We will hunt, but this us our last year on the Dutton. Hunted it sence 85. Hunted before and after the fire. The Rock has wore out my knees but been a great place to teach my kids to hunt on. But its time to let it go,and my sons to find another place to teach my grandkids... BTW Founder, snowball on the West side is just as big an ignorant bit h as always.
 
Hey Sonefly, how's the northern end of Dutton doing for deer numbers since they chained all that low country above Circleville?
I love the Dutton but haven't been on it for at least 5 years.

Hunt creek area on the south end used to be good, and I used to find some decent numbers out on Flake.

Deer numbers have been on a steady decline in that part of the state for years, I don't care what the Division models show, they are wrong!
Every unit in central utah are down, Dutton, fishlake, panguitch, beaver, boulder.

The only place I have seen deer numbers rebounding is Wasatch east.

The irony there is elk numbers have plummeted on the Satch because they have culled out thousands of cows in the last 5 years.

Has anyone linked high elk numbers to low deer numbers and vice versa yet besides just hypothetically?
 
I layed on my big fat belly and spotted across the tops of the pines below the east end of rhe cliffs above circleville in late sept. Saw a monster wide buck, not enough light to count points at around 1500 yds but he was a whopper. Sent a guy from here on MM after him, never heard back tho. Numbers have been the same for the last 3 years from what iv seen. And that means they are low. Saw a few older class bucks before the muzzy a mile or so above seed lakes. Man that trail is rough, didnt get far from my totegote, just glassing. By older i mean mabey 5 year olds. No smokers like was there up until the late 90s. The deer my son was going after was on flake but havent been able to locate him sence the bow hunt, no sightings or trail cam pics either. I know there were bow hunters there from panguitch, but havent heard of anyone takeing him. There are 2 guys from slc sitting a bull in a different area that have cams set off water that had a pic of him 1st week sept. Nothing sence. Elk look really good all across the unit. And, t&e billy we saw last week on top sure was a big boy.... there ya go, thats all my info i have for the dutton. Dont imagine ill need it after this year. Ill keep the elk onfo kinda mum, as i know some guys yet to hunt. I will add that if there is a lion guy out there looking, i havent seen the cat, but there are fresh big tracks about every week or so a mile down rocky ford trail
....
 
I'm beginning to wonder if the dwr only does their counts on the henries, pauns, book cliffs etc and applies it to the rest of the state..
 
Slam,

I have hunted wasatch east for 20 years. The areas I hunt have seen a decrease in overall deer numbers and buck numbers. It was a fantastic unit a few short years ago, now not so much.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-19 AT 04:49PM (MST)[p]One of the ways that we could track deer is by collecting measurements on the deer population?s estimated fat reserves each fall. Various check points could be set up during the hunt to inspect the fat reserves of killed deer.

?All the numbers that we collect, they're ratios really, then we put them into a computer population model,?

Then, we would uses these ratios to find out if the overall area deer population is rising or falling, and at what rate.

Then we could use these computer models to decide how many
deer are in any given unit.

Anybody on board for that?
 
>Slam,
>
>I have hunted wasatch east for
>20 years. The areas I
>hunt have seen a decrease
>in overall deer numbers and
>buck numbers. It was a
>fantastic unit a few short
>years ago, now not so
>much.

Might just be our location differences, my area is most definitely rebounding in the last 5 years.

I am seeing far less elk, but more deer.
 
>Shootem asked for suggestions!!
>
>Why don't we use our dedicated
>hunters who are passionate about
>the units they hunt in
>to do the deer herd
>counts. Let them form
>a plan with groups of
>hunters and actually go out
>in the field and make
>an honest count. Then
>a more logical decision could
>be made on tag numbers
>or even shutting a unit
>down.
>
>I know that the Paunsaugunt unit
>became so bad that I
>think they closed it for
>5 years. I could
>see this needing to be
>done in these southern units.
> It is not about
>shutting areas down to form
>trophy units, it is about
>shutting units down to save
>a deer herd.
>
>The dedicated hunters will have the
>passion about their units to
>do the right thing, even
>if it means shutting an
>area down or greatly reducing
>tags. The hunters that
>love there hunting units see
>the need for changes to
>happen. We need the
>DWR to work with us
>and see that same need.
>

I've been in dedicated for years. Very, very, very few service projects have anything to do with mule deer. I'd love to see that change.

Also, deer on the Manti are at the lowest levels I've seen in the 30 years I've hunted deer there. Pretty sad state. My kids first deer hunt was a total bust this year. Couldn't even turn up a silly 2 point. Great first impression!
 
The deer number decline in the Bookcliffs is shocking to say the least.

We need a wild horse hunt there BAD!

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
As concerned hunters continue to state that their hunting unit is declining in deer numbers, we watch on the media as DWR continues to advertise the best deer numbers in the last 25 years. At some point they need to listen to those whose boots hit the dirt and start working with us.

The computer model and formula they generate is not working. Let the dedicated hunters help in the count process, so that a more accurate overall number can be given in each unit. I thought the reason the state went to the smaller units was to better manage the deer herd in each of these units. Look at those who have said deer numbers are way down: Beaver, Panguitch, Dutton, Monroe, Pahvant, Manti. This does not look like a very good trend, and the rifle hunt is still yet to happen, where more bucks will be taken. Then the Land owner and depredation permits will certainly take out more doe. These units cannot sustain this type of pressure. It might be to late as it is.
 
Southernhunted, the computer models are not the problem.

It is the bureaucracy that is feeding off from itself.

Those at the top have got to know those numbers they throw around are not real.

Sad to say they are selling tags for animals they know do not exist.
 
But try and take away those tags and you're the enemy of the average joe! It's the so called average joe that gives the division the justification to continue to manage poorly.

It's also not a money issue. You could easily double the cost of tags next year and it would not even dent the total number of applicants and tags sold. It comes down to being lazy and unwilling to try new things. Why put in more effort when they already sell out all of the tags. So many options that could improve our herds and average joes and misled old school thinking management from a governmental agency keep it poor.
 
Muley73:

I totally agree. People waiting in line to buy a tag, so they feel no pressure to do the right thing. Like you said, my hell cut the tags in half and charge double if that is the right thing to do, but advertising to the media that the deer herd is in great shape is a crock.
 
Nothing will ever change boys, get use to it, come to terms with it, on paper we have deer everywhere, on the ground they are yet to be seen.
I tried for 4 yrs on the RAC, to no avail, nobody wants to try new things,
We went to smaller units so that we could focus on the needs of each units specifically, but then it was still a blanket approach, keep managing for the magical buck to doe ratio of 15-17.
Nothing changed with going to smaller units.
Every unit has its own struggles and needs, some might be highway issues, some might be winter range issues, some summer range issues, some predators, etc...But we still are not focusing on each unit individually, blanket approach for the whole state.
 
cant is Right!

It's Over!

It's Been Over!

It's Done!

We Know what This State can Produce!

When Managed Properly!

Everything is managed for Money now days & Has been for a Long Damn Time!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Agreed Bess, this state can produce great Mule Deer. It also can generate a lot of $ for DNR. DUTTON is toast. There buck/doe ratio BS has increased tag numbers to kill off the Deer. Even giving out late seasion muzzy tags because of high buck/doe BS. It doesnt work, the ratio might be 20/100, but where once there were hundreds of animals, there are 50-7o% less than 10 years ago. D w r keeps mixing the kool aid and adding tags.
 
You sure you aren't thinking 35 years ago? 25 years ago would be 1994. I remember hunting in the mid nineties and I definitely see more deer now then I ever did in the nineties. Now the 80?s I wasn?t around to hunt but I do hear stories, and I've seen the pictures and there seem to be more deer at that time then now just based on pictures.
 
Even if there were 370,000 deer statewide, that would still be pitiful. 50 years ago, there were more deer than that on the Beaver unit alone.
 
>Even if there were 370,000 deer
>statewide, that would still be
>pitiful. 50 years ago,
>there were more deer than
>that on the Beaver unit
>alone.

Now I've heard some exaggerated ##### in my day, but this claim is up at the top of that list
@screaminseagull
 
Someone might need to tell the division that when they do the yearly deer counts, they can't include the deer in town. If they aren't in a huntable area, they should not be included in the unit population numbers



@screaminseagull
 
They are so far up in the night. I would guess the deer herd in these southern units to be less than half of what they are saying, if not more. What will they say is the reason for no deer?
 
I would think Mandatory Harvest reporting would be a good start to know what's going on with the deer herd.
 
There's a unit up here that I've hunted for the last 10 yrs that's in serious trouble, just in the last 4 yrs its turned into a complete circus and drastic deer number decline...

But hey the good news is they've up'd the tag numbers for the last 3 years in a row...
 
When I lived in Utah a few years back guys were having the same complaints. Then when the draw results came out the SAME guys would complain about how ridiculous it was that they "couldn't even draw a general tag" or their kids didn't draw.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-19 AT 06:38PM (MST)[p]I'm not sure about the rest of utah but there are tons and tons of deer here in southwest utah. You cant swing a dead cat without hitting a doe and its fawn. That said, I haven't really seen much in the way of bucks though or even tracks.

I'm guessing with this warm weather and no storms all of the nice bucks are still dug in deep and not moving down off the hills yet.
 
NO WORD on the huge winterkill in the SE part of the state last year.
NOW They are wondering how they will re build the herd .
BUT WAIT highest deer count since slice bread.
Very few good bucks left to do the breeding and those that are trophy are getting hammered out on the cwmu.
Those forky will have to do the major part of the breeding.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
>This article is very concerning. There
>is no way there are
>370,000 in the state. The
>thing that concerns me the
>most is they think the
>deer herd is doing well
>and better than it has
>been in years. Where I
>feel that exact opposite. I
>feel like it is worse
>than it ever has been.
>Ive spent numerous days scouting
>and it's becoming more difficult
>to find mature bucks. This
>tells me they have no
>intentions of improving the deer
>herd. Are we all crazy??
>Where the hell is all
>the deer?

^this
 
>Muley73:
>
>I totally agree. People waiting
>in line to buy a
>tag, so they feel no
>pressure to do the right
>thing. Like you said,
>my hell cut the tags
>in half and charge double
>if that is the right
>thing to do, but advertising
>to the media that the
>deer herd is in great
>shape is a crock.



Explain to me how the DWR saying their is 370k, but cutting tags in half will accomplish what?

DEER numbers aren't what the DWR says it is. You want more DEER you need MORE DOES. Bucks don't carry fawns. Bucks don't get pregnant.

If you want to increase age class you cut tags.

Cutting tags will lead to ZERO fawns next spring.


Plus. I was around when we cut 150,000 tags. WHERE IS THE MASSIVE INCREASE IN DEER OR AGE CLASS?

Want more DEER. You create better habitat. Slam predators at fawning time.



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
I am with you on that hoss only way you increase the herd size is increase the production.
The winter range in this state is in bad shape there is miles of 6 feet tall bitter brush on some units above Holden to Fillmore for example that has little to no new growth under 5 feet, not good food source for young deer that can not reach over 5 feet.
The sagebrush that deer normally feed on through the fall and into winter has taken a beating from the extended drought we have had in Utah.
The truth of the matter the DNR knows it will take millions to rejuvenate the winter rang and with the legislators in this state more worried about tech industry and population explosion of the Wasatch Front I do not believe there is much chance on getting much more than a token budget for rejuvenating winter range.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-19 AT 11:18PM (MST)[p]>Cutting tags will lead to ZERO
>fawns next spring.

Slam predators
>at fawning time.

No ,,cutting tags will lead to more bucks.

Enough bucks to breed all the does at one time.

Then all the fawns are dropped at the same time each spring like they are suppose to be.

Then the predators don't have a slow steady stream of fawns to pick off clear into late July.

Piss poor biologist giving piss poor advice to piss poor managers.

Hell the southern RAC did not even get a quorum together last time so they could not even present at the general meeting.
 
>The truth of the matter the
>DNR knows it will take
>millions to rejuvenate the winter
>rang and with the legislators
>in this state more worried
>about tech industry and population
>explosion of the Wasatch Front
>I do not believe there
>is much chance on getting
>much more than a token
>budget for rejuvenating winter range.
>

Actually not true at all.

The MDF raises millions of dollars that go right back into our winter range habitat through rejuvenation projects all across the state.
These projects go on all throughout the spring summer and fall (two projects scheduled up in northern utah and down in the Monroe area in upcoming weeks).

Conservation groups understand our wildlife need more than just the DNR's government funds and raise millions of dollars to pick up the slack.

I have posted MDF habitat rejuvenation projects on multiple posts but get zero responses, yet see hundreds of posts about declining deer numbers?

The DNR isn't going to fix it by themselves, it is up to US to step up and do SOMETHING to help.

We all want more deer and that's a fact. We all agree the Divisions numbers are incorrect and grossly exaggerated.
Many of us want to see changes in many forms.

If we want more deer, we've got to have healthy habitat on the winter and spring ranges.

It's not the one and only answer to fix our declining herds, but it is actively and currently proactive!
 
What's not true Slam, are you saying the legislature's are appointing millions of dollars to help improve winter range in Utah?
I know that The Muley Deer Foundation has done many good projects to help restore winter range also SFW has did many good projects throughout Utah I have been on a few.
Slam you are quick to point out how much you have did and quick to claim guys from this site are doing nothing to help on these projects just because few if any responded to your post on this site. Are you sure guys from this site are not helping on the projects, do you know everyone out there on the project.
Maybe no one from this site might be on the project but does that mean they are not helping out, maybe someone donated money. Lots of guys maybe could not help on the projects because they are busy donating there time too teach your/mine kids or grandkids scouts or coach a sport team they are on or maybe they are doing a project in yours/mine community that might save you or tax dollars or maybe they are training for the local volunteer fire department.
I hope you do not take this wrong I sincerely thank you for what you do to help with these projects and probably other community projects you donate time and money too. I was trying too point out the government is not going too fix the Muley deer issues alone. I personally think for the most part the DNR employees are doing the best they can do with there hands being tied by budget constraints.
Again thanks to all that guys from Monster Muleys do too help out on whatever the project in your community, county or state is.
 
NDH, that is a good and totally fair response, thank you.

You are correct that I do not know everyone who attends our projects or what forums they may post on.
But one thing I do know, is these forums are created for people to freely voice their opinions, concerns, success or the lack thereof.
I've been a moderator and member of this site for many many years and rarely see posts about what people do to actually help our wildlife.
Yes there are members of various organizations on here, absolutely, and yes everyone that attends the Expo puts a few dollars into the wildlife through the MDF and SFW (thank you!).

With your claim of maybe people on here are doing more than I realize or see, why don't they mention it as a positive versus arguing and complaining as a negative?

I understand "life" and some people just give what they can and that is totally fine and completely understandable, I am simply pointing out that I hear and see very few "active" participants voicing positive comments about conservation efforts.

Strength in numbers is what the DNR listens to, and all the wildlife groups need to communicate together and find a way to work WITH the Division instead of fighting them.
Together there is a chance of making positive changes.

Everyone on this site and other hunting forums all want the same outcome, and although we may not get it exactly what WE want, we CAN make it "better".
 
This will probably cause a little backlash but like I was already accused of... I am a dik.

MDF will always focus on habitat because it is a safe stance and you can't be called out for supporting habit. Which I totally get. We need that. But....that is not the only thing that will help our deer herds, and groups like the MDF and other are not willing to actually step on toes and push for real changes that could help our deer herds.

There are multiple units in that state that have plenty of habitat that is not being utilized by mule deer because the mule deer are not there any more. Take a look at any herd south of Nephi and north of Cedar City and tell be that has been enough population growth and habit destruction too account for the loss of deer numbers in those areas.

Until you force a change of management philosophy of the Utah DWR we will continue to lose our mule deer.
 
>This will probably cause a little
>backlash but like I was
>already accused of... I am
>a dik.
>
> MDF will always focus on
>habitat because it is a
>safe stance and you can't
>be called out for supporting
>habit. Which I totally
>get. We need that.
>But....that is not the only
>thing that will help our
>deer herds, and groups like
>the MDF and other are
>not willing to actually step
>on toes and push for
>real changes that could help
>our deer herds.
>


>There are multiple units in that
>state that have plenty of
>habitat that is not being
>utilized by mule deer because
>the mule deer are not
>there any more. Take
>a look at any herd
>south of Nephi and north
>of Cedar City and tell
>be that has been enough
>population growth and habit destruction
>too account for the loss
>of deer numbers in those
>areas.
>
>Until you force a change of
>management philosophy of the Utah
>DWR we will continue to
>lose our mule deer.

Southern RAC did not even have a quorum last time.

Nothing can be used from a meeting without a quorum.

The general public?s voices are falling on def ears.
 
Muley73, I totally agree. I also support better habitat for the deer, but if there are not any deer, you can create good habitat all you want but it won't help the deer herd. They are not dying because of lack of habitat right now, There are not enough deer to even put a slight dent in habitat. Totally agree that until they change there mind set that we are about to lose our deer herd, nothing will work. Just the first part of October they came out saying the deer herd has never looked better, and more deer than we have ever had, with excellent horn growth. Now that the hunt is over, and many of you hunters have put on many miles in the hills, does that statement ring true for you!!
 
M73
Great news.....the leadership of the Utah County Chapter (including myself) is meeting with the DNR next Thursday to discuss their management plans and it will also be an open forum for discussions on any topic (as long as it doesn't turn into a pissing match of course).

I cannot speak for the entire Utah MDF, but our UC Chapter is actively and aggressively working with the DNR on changes.

MDF is about "Conservation", and that goes beyond just planting bitter brush.
 
You are right muley_73 there is hundreds of miles of open range between Nephi and Cedar, but is it productive winter range that is the question. I am no range expert but it does not take a expert to see the dead or dying sage and not all sage is the same certain sage is preferd for deer (Big sage, Wyoming sage, black sage, and Mountain sage) are the more common preferd sage. Sage does not do well during extended droughts and the drought in central Utah was extreme for the last 20 years. The Bitter Brush in central Utah is over grown and over grazed most bitter brush on the winter range has grown tall and it's new shoots of growth go up the deer especial the young can not reach the new growth and what they can reach is sticks thicker than a man's thumb and that does not equate into good protein. If a doe or a cow elk is not getting the right nutrients and protein they will not take when they get breed or they will abort and if a fawn or calf gets borne there is not much of a chance of survival
I looked up a good read and have posted the link if it works read about the sage and deer, elk and pronghorn relationship.
The Muley Deer Foundation and SFW has did some good projects along the I-15 corridor between Nephi and Cedar but there is alot more that needs to be done.


https://books.google.com/books?id=1...at kind of sage is good feed for deer&f=false
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-19
>AT 11:18?PM (MST)
>
>>Cutting tags will lead to ZERO
>>fawns next spring.
>
>Slam predators
>>at fawning time.
>
>No ,,cutting tags will lead to
>more bucks.
>
>Enough bucks to breed all the
>does at one time.
>
>Then all the fawns are dropped
>at the same time each
>spring like they are suppose
>to be.
>
>Then the predators don't have a
>slow steady stream of fawns
>to pick off clear into
>late July.
>
>Piss poor biologist giving piss poor
>advice to piss poor managers.
>
>
>Hell the southern RAC did not
>even get a quorum together
>last time so they could
>not even present at the
>general meeting.


READ. READ. READ. There are numerous studies published on elk, and I'll assume deer, explaining how poor feed conditions lead cows to not recover from calving as quick, leading to them not coming into heat as early, leading to them calving late the flowing year.

A couple show the rapid snow melt being a culprit in green spring grass coming available to quick and turning brown to quick.


Logic proves your argument stupid.

IF there aren't enough BIG BUCKS at rut, then smaller bucks are breeding. There are more smaller bucks, thus more available to breed.

But deer arent screwing for fun, so a doe has to come into heat. In the elk studies, that is being determined by recovery from previous springs births.


Or to summarize. Better feed=heat in does=fawns dropping on time.


A 400" 8x8 buck, has the SAME genetics in him as his 2x2 yearling offspring. AND NEITHER ARE IMPREGNATING DOES TGAT ARENT IN HEAT.

AGAIN. We cut 150,000 tags in the 90's. How did that work out?

A buck matters in deer population numbers for as long as it takes him to ejaculate. After that, ITS ALL ABOUT DOES.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-19 AT 05:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-19 AT 05:26?PM (MST)

Southernutah tell me how are the deer herds dying at such an alarming rate as so many including you say. I am not arguing with what people are saying the numbers they are seeing. I want to know why are the does dying if you can not fix that it does not matter how many buck permits you cut it is not going to save the herd. It is not good to make a change just to make a change and hope that fixes the problem we need to identify the problem and then fix it.
Most people have said they are seeing only a few more does than bucks if that is the case then we have plenty of bucks to service the few does we have.
I am not saying everyone that wants to cut buck permits is totally wrong but if we do not have the does we will not have bucks to hunt. Also if you cut the buck tags how is the DWR going too pay the bills needed to keep the DWR doors open. I can guarantee the legislature is not going to help out. The legislature nose is up the buts of the Wasatch Front because that is the constituents that elect them and the businesses that butter there toast. And good luck getting any significant permit fee raised to offset the dollar figure of lost revenue from tag cuts. I do not know for sure i might be wrong but I think again the legislatures have too pass that.
It might sound negative but I am not trying to be negative I just belive fix what we have the ability too fix.
 
This is good news slamdunk that your meeting with the DNR, I have hunted the Beaver Unit for 60 plus years (Dog Valley south end of the Beaver Unit) we ran cattle up their, hunted on horse's, on foot and this is the worst I have seen this Unit for deer,not going to blame any one, want to make a suggestion. Let's split the Beaver Unit into three section, any thing south of Hwy 153 will be Beaver Unit A, any thing north of Hwy 153 will be Beaver Unit B, any thing west of I-15 will be Beaver Unit C, then let's cuts some tags in each section, let's work together, and get our deer herd back. I hope you take this to the meeting with the DNR.

Thanks Ron Perkins
 
Thanks to all who are making suggestions . Good ideas for Beaver unit. I understand that cutting buck tags only helps the buck herd. I don't think deer are dying off like crazy. Most of us have watched this happening over several years. As for the doe that are dying, one hunter pointed out that they hand out land owner tags like candy and just last year still gave out 50 depredation tags on the beaver, all this is happening because they say there are more deer than ever. It has been said hunters not seeing many more doe than buck, so yes cutting depredation and land owner tags would certainly help.
 
Mr Perkins (dogvalley)
There are many people in agreement with you, me included, that would love to see the Beaver unit split into at least 2 units, east and west.

Having said that, there are other units as well that should be split and managed accordingly.
The Wasatch West quickly comes to mind.
How can they effectively manage American Fork Canyon area the same as the west side of the Strawberry, Sheep Creek, Hobble Creek and Diamond Fork area?
To even fathom getting realistic winter counts on that unit when the terrain and habitats are polar opposite is extremely questionable.
 
Talking about splitting up units. The Oquirrh/Stansbury has no business being one unit...
 
>Without a quorum You can
>take suggestions and pass them
>on there is things that
>be accomplished without a full
>quorum.


Pretty sure there is not much of consequence that can be accepted at the general from a RAC that has held a meeting with out a quorum.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-19 AT 08:07PM (MST)[p]As for "changes" on the way we have been allowed to hunt and all the gadgetry we are allowed to use?
I don't think it's realistic to take those tools away from us at this point in the game, not all of them anyway.

Variable scopes on muzzleloaders for instance.
They just made them legal 2 years ago, it is unrealistic for them to now come out and say "sorry, these are now banned" after 150,000 hunters just purchased them.
But.....we CAN suggest a few units go to a more "primitive weapons only" status, right?
No inline muzzleloaders and more traditional archery equipment?

FLIR, and other relatively new gadgets that are just coming into the market need to be looked at very seriously and how they can potentially further put the animals at an even greater disadvantage than our existing "tools of the trade" already do.
 
>Talking about splitting up units. The
>Oquirrh/Stansbury has no business being
>one unit...

I completely agree!?
 
How do we get the word out to the DNR to split a unit like the beaver, I can show the DNR how the deer migrate to their winter range on the Beaver, will you present what I said about splitting the Beaver Unit to the DNR,I would be happy to meet them in Circleville or Panguitch, I can't go my wife is having surgery that week.
 
The DWR originally have 60 different deer herds/units identified in the state. This is how it should have been broken down with Opt 2. It just fell back to 30 units because again ....lack of willingness to make changes. Look it up. You should be able to find the original map, created by the Division.
 
>The DWR originally have 60 different
>deer herds/units identified in the
>state. This is how
>it should have been broken
>down with Opt 2.
>It just fell back to
>30 units because again ....lack
>of willingness to make changes.
> Look it up. You
>should be able to find
>the original map, created by
>the Division.

60 is most definitely where it SHOULD be ?
 
>The DWR originally have 60 different
>deer herds/units identified in the
>state. This is how
>it should have been broken
>down with Opt 2.
>It just fell back to
>30 units because again ....lack
>of willingness to make changes.
> Look it up. You
>should be able to find
>the original map, created by
>the Division.


They defined 60 deer units way back in the 50/60?s. I have a movie your dad game me years ago with the DWR talking about them...
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-19
>>AT 11:18?PM (MST)
>>
>>>Cutting tags will lead to ZERO
>>>fawns next spring.
>>
>>Slam predators
>>>at fawning time.
>>
>>No ,,cutting tags will lead to
>>more bucks.
>>
>>Enough bucks to breed all the
>>does at one time.
>>
>>Then all the fawns are dropped
>>at the same time each
>>spring like they are suppose
>>to be.
>>
>>Then the predators don't have a
>>slow steady stream of fawns
>>to pick off clear into
>>late July.
>>
>>Piss poor biologist giving piss poor
>>advice to piss poor managers.
>>
>>
>>Hell the southern RAC did not
>>even get a quorum together
>>last time so they could
>>not even present at the
>>general meeting.
>
>
>READ. READ. READ.
>There are numerous studies published
>on elk, and I'll assume
>deer, explaining how poor feed
>conditions lead cows to not
>recover from calving as quick,
>leading to them not coming
>into heat as early, leading
>to them calving late the
>flowing year.
>
>A couple show the rapid snow
>melt being a culprit in
>green spring grass coming available
>to quick and turning brown
>to quick.
>
>
>Logic proves your argument stupid.
>
>IF there aren't enough BIG BUCKS
>at rut, then smaller bucks
>are breeding. There are
>more smaller bucks, thus more
>available to breed.
>
>But deer arent screwing for fun,
>so a doe has to
>come into heat. In
>the elk studies, that is
>being determined by recovery from
>previous springs births.
>
>
>Or to summarize. Better feed=heat
>in does=fawns dropping on time.
>
>
>
>A 400" 8x8 buck, has the
>SAME genetics in him as
>his 2x2 yearling offspring. AND
>NEITHER ARE IMPREGNATING DOES TGAT
>ARENT IN HEAT.
>
>AGAIN. We cut 150,000 tags
>in the 90's. How
>did that work out?
>
>A buck matters in deer population
>numbers for as long as
>it takes him to ejaculate.
> After that, ITS ALL
>ABOUT DOES.
>
>
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

Hoss, you did a a great job of affirming my point that a strung out fawning season is not a good thing.

Now I see all we need is better habitats,
fat healthy bucks don't really matter.

So I guess I need to use your ?logic?
that 8 or 10 ,,year and a half old spikes and forkys are going to breed a 100 does in a timely manner.

Thanks for pointing out my stupidity.

I am sure your right we need to sell more tag to generate funds for habitat.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-19 AT 11:29PM (MST)[p]I totally support increasing the number of units to better manage the herds, but that's only helpful if they then manage the individual herds.

Who cares how many arbitrary lines they draw on the map if they maintain the same management style as they have today? The deer don't know what "herds" they're in.

Years ago I sat in a meeting where the DWR gave their estimated herd numbers for the Cache unit, then the number of hunters, the success rate, and the buck:doe ratio. My friend raised his hand and held up his chicken scratch notes and pointed out that using DWRs own numbers, hunters had killed every buck on the unit that year.

The proverbial "deer in the headlights" from the biologist was priceless. His only retort was that their numbers were estimates. Ever since then, I've felt they must exaggerate their own counts significantly to reach the public relations number they're trying to promote.

Grizzly
 
Hang on!

Hang the F On!

They Broke this State down from 5 Regions down to 30+ Units!

Claiming the Smaller Units could be Managed as needed!

Most of us agreed with that Idea!

But since then!

Where's the Management needed to Improve the Units?

We Sure the F have not seen it!

Is Selling More Tags Fixed any of the Problems?

HELL NO!

Is Lieing about Deer Numbers Fixed anything?

HELL NO!

They Get their MONEY Grab every year!

And We are Dumb enough to keep giving it to them!

PISS POOR DEER MANAGEMENT in this State since 1972 & Getting worse by the F'N year!

Alot of people still wanting more Units/current Units Broke up even more!

Without Proper Management You're Pissin in the Wind & the DWR will Jump on it Only to find a way to Sell More Tags & THRASH them Units/Areas even more so!

ADMIT IT!

The TARDville Deer Herd is F'D Up!

It's Been F'D Up for Decades!

And it'll get more F'D up every year as time rolls on!

There will NEVER EVER be enough Changes made to Bring it back to what it should be & what this State is capable of Producing!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 

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