Expo results Posted

[Tristate]

Randy lied to every mm'er on here. It doesn't mean he is corrupt or rmef is a bunch of criminals. But it does mean I don't trust them anymore.

 

[Deerlove]

Then why did Don run and hide from him???

 

[Dconcrete]

Your yapping makes absolutely no sense.

You talk like you have half an idea on what you’re talking about. But you don’t.

You’re the biggest loudmouth, all bark, no bite, complain complain complain that I’ve ever met concerning wildlife.

Your complaints have become so minuscule, it truly demonstrates that you’re out of ammo. You’re throwing as much sh*t at the wall in hopes that something sticks. But it doesn’t. So now you’re down to the bottom of the barrel. Now your complaint is that the website crashed.

Again.....you ain’t got nuffin......

And Chester, show me. Show anyone. Where is your proof? Not based off the fact that you’ve been here since the start of the website. Show us all your proof. Take it to the highest official you can find. If you have real proof, I’ll stand behind each and everyone of you that’s crying corruption. But until then, all of it is a bunch of, I heard it from my uncles aunts sisters wife’s dead dogs long lost canary.

You guys believe anything you WANT to believe. Regardless of anything else.

If somebody told you that the expo hid all the defibrillators because they hate everyone, you’d believe it.

 

[Chesterwyo]

I’m 100 percent confident that the good people at the US attorney’s office are all over it. I’m content to sit back and watch the show.

 

[JakeH]

Your yapping makes absolutely no sense.

You talk like you have half an idea on what you’re talking about. But you don’t.

You’re the biggest loudmouth, all bark, no bite, complain complain complain that I’ve ever met concerning wildlife.

Your complaints have become so minuscule, it truly demonstrates that you’re out of ammo. You’re throwing as much sh*t at the wall in hopes that something sticks. But it doesn’t. So now you’re down to the bottom of the barrel. Now your complaint is that the website crashed.

Again.....you ain’t got nuffin......

And Chester, show me. Show anyone. Where is your proof? Not based off the fact that you’ve been here since the start of the website. Show us all your proof. Take it to the highest official you can find. If you have real proof, I’ll stand behind each and everyone of you that’s crying corruption. But until then, all of it is a bunch of, I heard it from my uncles aunts sisters wife’s dead dogs long lost canary.

You guys believe anything you WANT to believe. Regardless of anything else.

If somebody told you that the expo hid all the defibrillators because they hate everyone, you’d believe it.

They all got a serious case of SFWDS (SFW derangement syndrome) It really reminds of of all the Liberals that hate trump, just make accusation after accusation with out any evidence what so ever other than hear say from someone who herd it from someone else. Get a grip guys.

 

[Chesterwyo]

Most of you SFW fanboys have Stockholm syndrome. Your wildlife, and your state wildlife agency is being held hostage and you empathize with it’s captors.

 

[Vanilla]

People can keep trying to make this about the expo. It has nothing to do with an expo. There is nothing wrong with the expo. The problem is those tags. The how, what, where, when, why of those tags.

Keep trying to distract from the real issue by bringing it back to something that this isn't about. That's a common tactic when people don't want you to discover the real issues. "Don't look at my right hand, stay focused on my left over here!"

The expo tag contract was not done legally. That cannot be disputed. It simply can't. You can try, but that makes you look flat dumb.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller!

I'm going for 400 Tags!

Gonna be a GRAND-DADDY HUNT-EXPO!

You Playin?

People can keep trying to make this about the expo. It has nothing to do with an expo. There is nothing wrong with the expo. The problem is those tags. The how, what, where, when, why of those tags.

Keep trying to distract from the real issue by bringing it back to something that this isn't about. That's a common tactic when people don't want you to discover the real issues. "Don't look at my right hand, stay focused on my left over here!"

The expo tag contract was not done legally. That cannot be disputed. It simply can't. You can try, but that makes you look flat dumb.

 

[hornkiller]

I'm glad I saved my money yet another year!

$$$.F.W. can go get $*@%÷;

 

[wstrntines]

I wish SFW would show their books that’s the only thing I ask. Do I think SFW does some good projects? yes. Do people up top need to be compensated. To do a good job yes they do. People just want to see where all the money goes. Will I apply regardless yes. Utah’s draw odds suck. Is there a better solution to the odds. Yes no early rifle elk and put more archery hunters in the field. More people will go through the system and success will be lower.

 

[Tikka]

I wish SFW would show their books that’s the only thing I ask. Do I think SFW does some good projects? yes. Do people up top need to be compensated. To do a good job yes they do. People just want to see where all the money goes. Will I apply regardless yes. Utah’s draw odds suck. Is there a better solution to the odds. Yes no early rifle elk and put more archery hunters in the field. More people will go through the system and success will be lower.

? more bow tags, more muzz tags and move rifle with less tags later into October...

 

[Vanilla]

Ha! You guys are giving the SFW line now. They don’t want normal, DIY hunters killing “their” trophy bulls, so we have to find a way to prevent that from happening. This is their solution to that problem.

Oh, and ending and entire hunt in the Dutton late hunt. Can’t have state draw hunters killing those big bulls!!!

 

[Tikka]

Ha! You guys are giving the SFW line now. They don’t want normal, DIY hunters killing “their” trophy bulls, so we have to find a way to prevent that from happening. This is their solution to that problem.

Oh, and ending and entire hunt in the Dutton late hunt. Can’t have state draw hunters killing those big bulls!!!

Niller, I believe you can look up Troy proposing this last spring to the WLB...

 

[grizzly]

? more bow tags, more muzz tags and move rifle with less tags later into October...

But will they ever risk lower success rates on their hunts since it will only cost them money on the tags they sell?

 

[Tikka]

But will they ever risk lower success rates on their hunts since it will only cost them money on the tags they sell?

Most of those hunts are guided, I believe their success rates will be just fine...

 

[Vanilla]

Niller, I believe you can look up Troy proposing this last spring to the WLB...

Bingo! I’m not making this up. I watched it take place at a Wildlife Board meeting.

Again, not a conspiracy. Something that happened right out in the open, directly in front of our faces.

 

[JakeH]

Bingo! I’m not making this up. I watched it take place at a Wildlife Board meeting.

Again, not a conspiracy. Something that happened right out in the open, directly in front of our faces.

Vanilla, I and many other people including many that do not agree with SFW have been saying that for many many years. There is no reason what so ever to have the rifle hunt in mid September. Just because SFW is now promoting it does not mean we are all SFW fanboys.

People can keep trying to make this about the expo. It has nothing to do with an expo. There is nothing wrong with the expo. The problem is those tags. The how, what, where, when, why of those tags.

Keep trying to distract from the real issue by bringing it back to something that this isn't about. That's a common tactic when people don't want you to discover the real issues. "Don't look at my right hand, stay focused on my left over here!"

The expo tag contract was not done legally. That cannot be disputed. It simply can't. You can try, but that makes you look flat dumb.

I will actually agree with you that the expo tag contract was a fishy deal, but I personally think the DWR and the state are the ones that are in the wrong, of course SFW is going to do everything they can to keep the contract, the state is the ones that broke the rules not SFW. I am in no way a SFW fan boy, but to listen to some of the guys above they sound like they have hard evidence that they have done something wrong when in reality they just hate SFW and will do and say anything they can against them.

Personally I do not care who has the tag contract, I just want the opportunity to put in for those tags, I think RMEF should have gotten the contract, but they didn't, not much I can do about that. You guys show a way to support getting the contract away from them and I will most likely support it.

Also I think there needs to be a major overhaul of the auction tags system, and that is not just a SFW problem, as every one of the org's get those tags. Most guys like to put the expo tags and the auction tags in the same group of tags, reality is they are not the same thing at all, one group is for more well off people and guides and the other is something everyone has an equal opportunity to get as long as you can make it to the expo.

While I do not think they need to do away with the auction tags completely they do need to start slashing the numbers greatly. They sell way to many of them, and in my opinion have flooded the market. Personally I would like to see a 50%-75% reduction in auction tags.

 

[hossblur]

Vanilla, I and many other people including many that do not agree with SFW have been saying that for many many years. There is no reason what so ever to have the rifle hunt in mid September. Just because SFW is now promoting it does not mean we are all SFW fanboys.



I will actually agree with you that the expo tag contract was a fishy deal, but I personally think the DWR and the state are the ones that are in the wrong, of course SFW is going to do everything they can to keep the contract, the state is the ones that broke the rules not SFW. I am in no way a SFW fan boy, but to listen to some of the guys above they sound like they have hard evidence that they have done something wrong when in reality they just hate SFW and will do and say anything they can against them.

Personally I do not care who has the tag contract, I just want the opportunity to put in for those tags, I think RMEF should have gotten the contract, but they didn't, not much I can do about that. You guys show a way to support getting the contract away from them and I will most likely support it.

Also I think there needs to be a major overhaul of the auction tags system, and that is not just a SFW problem, as every one of the org's get those tags. Most guys like to put the expo tags and the auction tags in the same group of tags, reality is they are not the same thing at all, one group is for more well off people and guides and the other is something everyone has an equal opportunity to get as long as you can make it to the expo.

While I do not think they need to do away with the auction tags completely they do need to start slashing the numbers greatly. They sell way to many of them, and in my opinion have flooded the market. Personally I would like to see a 50%-75% reduction in auction tags.

Not sure where you disagree much with me. Only thing I would add is the WB and Govenor. We know where they lean, which is pretty helpful if you need special consideration in a bidding process.

I'm open minded. IF we have decided those 200 are so necessary, then WE deserve to have the revenue maxed out.

The rules on the bid should lay that out.
80/20 split? In favor of state? Or better.

Second. IF we agree those tags should be used for the betterment of OUR wildlife, there should be a 5 year limited contract.

Also, if prefer a rotation through the group's. Let RMEF have 5 years, let MDF, let $fw. Let any org that can meet the minimum bid requirements have 5 years to boost money into their segment of conservation.

You are correct. Too many guys confuse, or mix the lotto tags and the auction tags.

The lotto tags are the expo funder. All Those guys SHOW UP. They are the pool of customers the vendors show up to chase.

The auction tags, like most other auctions, are done remotely, and/or in a small gathering.

Other than UTAH tags, $FW should be able to retain whatever they can.

The Utah tags should follow the Utah lotto tags.

Those lotto tags revenue IS NOT being maximized. Not even close. Meaning OUR wildlife is not being served.

I dobt care what $fw does. I care what those tags are supposed to do. And what they are actually doing now.

And even the biggest, loudest voices(DC), can't show they are being used to best benefit OUR WILDLIFE. They fund a cool party, but that IS NOT the intention.

Jake I know a lot of $fw guys. They do good projects. They care. Many privately will agree.

It ain't personal(although I openly admit my distain for THE DON), it's business.

 

[Tristate]

It's crazy watching the meltdown.

The US attorney office.???

Do you really think if any one of your plans of tag distribution became reality anything about yall would change? I doubt it. Yall would find some other all consuming hatred to focus your will of sitting on ass and yelling at your computer.


Fact, it's less then half of %1 of your big game tags.
Fact, the state still gets paid in full for each tag.
Fact, ANY ONE OF YOU CAN TRY FOR THESE TAGS.
Fact, the tags are benefiting more than just the tagholders now.
Fact, you are talking about less than 1 million dollars that SFW keeps from these tags.
Fact, none of you have lost a single dollar or personal property due to this distribution model.

With those facts you are going to have a very hard time convincing the US attorney office to investigate your crazy conspiracies.

 

[Tristate]

"I didn't get a tag at the expo. WE'RE GONNA DIE!"

 

[Vanilla]

JakeH-

I haven’t called anyone a SFW fanboy here, let alone you. I’m simply pointing out that this line is SFW’s plan to keep DIY hunters from killing as many trophy elk. If you want to align with that mentality, I’m okay with that. I’m stand on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I’d way rather see state draw DIY hunters kill smoker bulls than out of state rich guys coming in and buying up all the tags and killing them. People are entitled to their opinions, and reasonable minds can disagree.

The funny thing is I don’t hate SFW. Not in the least. I have friends that I consider great people at all levels of the SFW organization. And SFW has done some great things. None of that absolves bad behavior, however, and I will continue to point out where they have come up short ethically and where their positions stand in stark contrast to what I think is for the general health and welfare of hunting in Utah.

You are correct, the state must own up to its part in this, and you’ve never heard me give them a pass on this one. They absolutely should be accountable to this.

And I’m 100% in favor of ending the expo and conservation (auction) tag program in its entirety and putting those tags back in the public draw. I’d be okay with a handful of “super tags” if they want to generate revenue, but the state should administer it and retain 100% of the proceeds. “Conservation” organizations need to get off the welfare teet of the government. Period.

 

[Tristate]

"I’m simply pointing out that this line is SFW’s plan to keep DIY hunters from killing as many trophy elk."

Let's start a sfw conspiracy list. This is a pretty good one. Somehow sfw helps the state in their tag distribution model of less than %1 of the big game tags at a public event, that any DIY hunter can participate in, but that is part of a plan to choke out the DIY hunters????????????

That's some special crazy.

 

[SS!]

Hossblur is the Utah version of tristate

 

[Vanilla]

"I’m simply pointing out that this line is SFW’s plan to keep DIY hunters from killing as many trophy elk."

Let's start a sfw conspiracy list. This is a pretty good one. Somehow sfw helps the state in their tag distribution model of less than %1 of the big game tags at a public event, that any DIY hunter can participate in, but that is part of a plan to choke out the DIY hunters????????????

That's some special crazy.

Except for I watch the Wildlife Board meetings, and have heard the public comment from the SFW representative, and this is his words, not mine. It's not a conspiracy if it is their own words in a public meeting. You can come back with whatever retort you'd like to try and distract from the issue once again, but these meetings are open to anyone that want to see them. They are even still recorded on Youtube! Go watch them, then spew your crap.

"Hey, don't look at my right hand and what its doing, keep your eyes over here on my left..." Classic tactic. It's not new, or even clever.

 

[Tristate]

Their own words are," SFW doesn't want DIY hunters to kill elk"?????????

Make some sense.

 

[hossblur]

Tri.

Don't forget.

AFTER, $fw takes home "less than a million"
banquet season starts.

They get More tags for their banquets. The expo is just the kickoff for tag revenue season for them, not the ending.

 

[hossblur]

Their own words are," SFW doesn't want DIY hunters to kill elk"?????????

Make some sense.

 

[hossblur]

Their own words are," SFW doesn't want DIY hunters to kill elk"?????????

Make some sense.

lowed by Greg Bird.
Troy Justensen: Troy Justensen; sportsmen, fish and wildlife. I passed out a couple of different papers
with some different proposals on them. One of which is dealing with an archery only once-in-a-lifetime
bighorn hunt for both deserts and Rockies. The other is pertaining to elk. The first thing that I want to
address is the elk. First, I would like to state that we support the Division’s recommendations with the
following exceptions. The first one that I would like to talk about is the Mount Dutton late rifle. We
know that that is part of the mega unit, and a lot of bulls tend to summer on that coming from the
Boulder, coming from the Panguitch Lake, coming from the Monroe, and due to the country they're real
susceptible to a lot of pressure on the top. So, we’d ask that we discontinue the late rifle on the Dutton



Tri. Troy ain't a hard guy to Google.

 

[johnnycake]

Ok. So now we are getting somewhere.

I find it hilarious that this group that had the standing elected not to.

Hmmmm makes me wonder why? If this other group (SFW) is such a detriment to the state and it’s wildlife, and the elk foundation CHOSE not to do something about it, makes ya go hmmmm

Perhaps their suit wasn’t real great?
Perhaps they didn’t want to open up Pandora’s box for themselves?
Perhaps they don’t really care too much about Utah? I mean after all, they haven’t really done a ton in the state of Utah

Can’t be self righteous and then not do something when the opportunities presented themselves. Especially on something as slam dunk as you think it is.

RMEF determined that using its funds to fight the decision would be inconsistent with it's missing statement and that it preferred to put the resources it generates from donations towards projects on the ground. Pretty classy move, even if it frustrates the hell out of me.

Even though RMEF had about as nice a case for an administrative appeal as an attorney could hope for, that still would be a process that takes years and likely hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees that likely would not be recoverable even when they win. And to clarify, it wouldn't be SFW that gets sued here, it is the UDWR that was in the wrong by the way the handled the RFP and awarded the contract to SFW.

 

[Tristate]

Hossblur,

That isn't targeting DIY hunters. That is harvest management that affects everyone.

Learn how to read.

You know sometimes the DWR has to tell people "no". Sometimes the elk herd needs are more important than Hossblur and Nilla's wants.

You know maybe if you weren't so greedy and had better reading skills you wouldn't be so angry.

 

[notdonhunting]

lowed by Greg Bird.
Troy Justensen: Troy Justensen; sportsmen, fish and wildlife. I passed out a couple of different papers
with some different proposals on them. One of which is dealing with an archery only once-in-a-lifetime
bighorn hunt for both deserts and Rockies. The other is pertaining to elk. The first thing that I want to
address is the elk. First, I would like to state that we support the Division’s recommendations with the
following exceptions. The first one that I would like to talk about is the Mount Dutton late rifle. We
know that that is part of the mega unit, and a lot of bulls tend to summer on that coming from the
Boulder, coming from the Panguitch Lake, coming from the Monroe, and due to the country they're real
susceptible to a lot of pressure on the top. So, we’d ask that we discontinue the late rifle on the Dutton



Tri. Troy ain't a hard guy to Google.

Hoss I do not think it is necessary a need to do away with the late hunt on the Dutton but I am 100 percent for removing the early rifle that is currently during the rut.
I do not read anything in that clip from the SFW proposal to the RAC that says any thing about being against DIY hunters and for Guiding services. In fact I think the opposite because there proposal of October hunts might make it harder for guides to guarantee the largest of bulls to there clients which would impact there services. October hunts would hopefully allow more permits which would move more hunters DIY or guided through the system.

 

[hossblur]

Hossblur,

That isn't targeting DIY hunters. That is harvest management that affects everyone.

Learn how to read.

You know sometimes the DWR has to tell people "no". Sometimes the elk herd needs are more important than Hossblur and Nilla's wants.

You know maybe if you weren't so greedy and had better reading skills you wouldn't be so angry.

I agree. That's why Troy brought it up in multiple meetings. The DWR had to tell the guides, represented by Troy, that even though their customers didn't pay big money to hunt out of the rut, the DIY guys liked the hunt.

The push to end it was coming from a few guides.

You can Google your own answer.

But it's pretty simple econ 101 type stuff.

There's more money in hunting bulls, in Sept, during the rut, with a rifle.

That's why the prices are the highest, the demand is, and the points to draw are.

Banquet season is here. When it's over I will breathlessly await you showing us you were right by showing how much more the late Dutton tag went for than the early(I'll even accept the same from the units the bulls migrate to the Dutton from).

 

[hossblur]

Hoss I do not think it is necessary a need to do away with the late hunt on the Dutton but I am 100 percent for removing the early rifle that is currently during the rut.
I do not read anything in that clip from the SFW proposal to the RAC that says any thing about being against DIY hunters and for Guiding services. In fact I think the opposite because there proposal of October hunts might make it harder for guides to guarantee the largest of bulls to there clients which would impact there services. October hunts would hopefully allow more permits which would move more hunters DIY or guided through the system.

The push is from the Guides. I listened to 2 on podcasts. One, who "owns" the Bolder was explaining that it's tough seeing bulls on hit lists, that made it through rifle season, get picked off late. It was a simple "good for business" discussion. He wasn't being a turd, just pointing out the obvious. Theres more money, and more demand early rifle.


Honestly, if they moved the early rifle, put archery in the rut, I think they could issue more tags, cut into creep.

I haven't read or heard anything concrete, but looking at $$ I'd assume the guides would pish back hard.

At the end of the day, it is a business for them. Watching $xx,xxx migrate out after surviving the fall, and get smacked by a noncustomer, is a loss to business.

Notice they aren't concerned about near 100% success rates during early rifle.

 

[hossblur]

To be fair. In the meeting I listened to, Troy did not say "to stop DIY guys from killing them"

I had read and listened and the noise to do so was from the Guides.

That's why when Vanilla pointed to it, and Tri edumivated us, I knew which meeting to pull up. Troy pushing it, and the noise being generated were at the same time.

I believe it was Jay Scott's podcast. And I knew it was official set meetings.

Tri, knew nothing but spoke anyway.

 

[Tristate]

So now you are blaming the outfitters???

You don't even look at whether there is science behind getting a season removed? You don't look if there is science for removing a season late vs. early.

Somehow you get pissed, see that an outfitter backs something and suddenly its SFW's fault. And somehow the auction price of one tag does or doesn't sell for proves it??????? And somehow this all is an attack on DIY????? I wasn't aware of any DIY restrictions in the early season.

It's Monday Hossblur. Time to put the liquor back in the cabinet.

 

[hossblur]

So now you are blaming the outfitters???

You don't even look at whether there is science behind getting a season removed? You don't look if there is science for removing a season late vs. early.

Somehow you get pissed, see that an outfitter backs something and suddenly its SFW's fault. And somehow the auction price of one tag does or doesn't sell for proves it??????? And somehow this all is an attack on DIY????? I wasn't aware of any DIY restrictions in the early season.

It's Monday Hossblur. Time to put the liquor back in the cabinet.

What's the science behind hunting rutting bulls with a rifle? What's the management advantage of near 100% success rates?
Why just the Dutton? That ain't the only late hunt. They ain't the only migratory herd. Why wasn't $fw concerned about late hunts on the Cache or Manti?(want me to show you what the auction price of the Dutton vs Cache or Manti was?)


There was no conspiracy. It was very openly talked about. It is not good for business to see those top tier bulls get whacked late. Nothing to read into it, it was cut and dried

Yes. The auction prices show the value genius. Guys pay more for the most highly coveted tag. Businesses are in the business of making money. Come on Tri, you've written books worth of diatribes on the most coveted tags being worth the most. You are now arguing with yourself?. Now your position is price of tag DOESNT reflect its value?

I know you have 2 personalities, but do those personalities both have Alzheimer's?

 

[notdonhunting]

Hoss in that post of minutes of a RAC it was also suggest to move the early rifle hunt out of the rut and later in the season, it makes no sense giving the most effective weapon the rut hunt.
Am I reading it wrong correct me if I am.

 

[Tristate]

The science is behind d harvest management. They are talking about changing their harvest management. There is science behind doing so. They don't grab at that just to screw some demographic.

Let me tell you something you don't get. Outfitters and guides want longer and more seasons if they think the heard can handle it. More days available to hunt is more money to be made.

In case you were wondering I got told by Wade to put in for a late season tag this draw. Gee I wonder why he didn't do what you say the outfitters do?

 

[Founder]

I haven’t talked to Troy in years, but no way do I think he’s trying to hurt DIY guys and only looking out for outfitters. I trust that he wants what's best for wildlife. I think he's a great guy to be working for wildlife.

 

[Vanilla]

Tri, this is just another topic that you know less about than everyone else posting, yet you claim some sort of authority.

You have no idea what you're talking about with Utah game management. You don't follow it, you don't pay attention, you don't know the back stories, so just stop.

 

[Vanilla]

I haven’t talked to Troy in years, but no way do I think he’s trying to hurt DIY guys and only looking out for outfitters. I trust that he wants what's best for wildlife. I think he's a great guy to be working for wildlife.

The whole reason he stated for wanting the rifle taken out of the rut is so they could market more 400 inch bulls. That was his statement and sentiment. Who are they marketing it to? Joe Blow rifle hunter that is now going to go buy a bow and go hunt archery all the sudden? C'mon...

I am not saying Troy is a bad person. I'm sure he's a great guy. I've never met him personally, but I've heard good things about him. In fact, even publicly, I like him way better than previous SFW presidents. All that said, I don't agree with his management strategy, or the reasons behind it.

 

[Founder]

The whole reason he stated for wanting the rifle taken out of the rut is so they could market more 400 inch bulls. That was his statement and sentiment. Who are they marketing it to? Joe Blow rifle hunter that is now going to go buy a bow and go hunt archery all the sudden? C'mon...

I am not saying Troy is a bad person. I'm sure he's a great guy. I've never met him personally, but I've heard good things about him. In fact, even publicly, I like him way better than previous SFW presidents. All that said, I don't agree with his management strategy, or the reasons behind it.

Fair enough, we all have our own opinion.

 

[notdonhunting]

Vanilla so do you support moving the LE rifle elk hunts out of the rut or not?

 

[wstrntines]

Early rifle hunts have been hell on Utah's elk herds. Late hunts don't help on some units either. So the best thing to help Utah's elk is simple Archery hunt the month of sept. on all LE hunts. With the exception of the Dolores hunt as it is migratory. Success rates will dive down. But people will still have a great hunt and more make it through the system knocking down point creep. Make the late hunts the only rifle hunts available. It works great for Nevada we have more elk and more tags. Outfitters would still kill great bulls at least the good ones would.

 

[hossblur]

I haven’t talked to Troy in years, but no way do I think he’s trying to hurt DIY guys and only looking out for outfitters. I trust that he wants what's best for wildlife. I think he's a great guy to be working for wildlife.

I'll echo Vanilla. I think Troy has been a step up from previous management.

But notice it was specifically the Dutton late tag. Because of where those bulls come from, which are the best units in the state, and are the biggest $$$ producers.

You only need to look at the bonus points needed to draw the feeder units early rifle.

 

[Vanilla]

Vanilla so do you support moving the LE rifle elk hunts out of the rut or not?

No, I do not.

People keep talking about how it will get more hunters through the system. Correction, it will get more archery hunters through the system. Archery hunters are a minority, and they have plenty of opportunities.

 

[hossblur]

The science is behind d harvest management. They are talking about changing their harvest management. There is science behind doing so. They don't grab at that just to screw some demographic.

Let me tell you something you don't get. Outfitters and guides want longer and more seasons if they think the heard can handle it. More days available to hunt is more money to be made.

In case you were wondering I got told by Wade to put in for a late season tag this draw. Gee I wonder why he didn't do what you say the outfitters do?

My guess is your pockets ain't as deep as the customers he has putting in for early.

You know, maximizing profit?

 

[Tristate]

Vanilla,

I'm not claiming to know a lot about it. I'm just claiming you don't have any proof that SFW has a anti-elk DIY motive. And Hossblur as usual has jumped in to save you but has only thrown more mud in the water.

 

[grizzly]

How late are they proposing for the earliest rifle? The fact is that for the last decade the early rifle hunt has been on the early side of the rut with the muzzleloader really having the best seasons. If they're proposing moving the early rifle hunt back a week, it will only get worse. Or are they proposing only having late rifle hunts?

I'm pretty sure Utah is the only state that runs rifle hunts for elk through the middle of September... I feel the other states went away from it for a reason. SFW has often said they want 100% success in LE hunts, which sounds good but that means tags must be very limited to maintain quality. And thus Point Creep is as bad as possible!

 

[hossblur]

Vanilla so do you support moving the LE rifle elk hunts out of the rut or not?

Hoss in that post of minutes of a RAC it was also suggest to move the early rifle hunt out of the rut and later in the season, it makes no sense giving the most effective weapon the rut hunt.
Am I reading it wrong correct me if I am.

The screen shot was. After hunting on the Wasatch this year I agree with him on it. I agree with him on moving the early rifle.

I'm pretty sure it was Jay Scott where they specifically spent time on the late Dutton and how it kills the top bulls that migrate in from other units. Then I saw Troy talk about it. Then heard it. I just posted the 2 times I could remember.

But it way an outfitter interviewing and outfitter on something that wasn't good for business.

And it probably isn't. I have no real dog in that fight other than as usual when Tri shoots off his mouth I find joy in googling the answer to show him incorrect.

I had Manti late tag years ago. I've been on that tag 4 times. Those late hunts are fun, but rut hunting is 100x funner. No secret.

They pay better too. No secret.
The demand is higher. No secret
They auction higher. No
secret

Guys that can buy them, obviously pay outfitters more. No secret

I'm not sure how guides wanting to be able to keep more big bulls alive for next year's higher paying customers is bad, or a secret.

It's just business.

They are buisnessmen.

Troy wasn't too concerned with the Cache late hunt. Fair to say because there isn't big money hunting it?

Archery during rut, the muzzy, then rifle. Archery success is lower, more bulls survive. Muzzy is lower, more bulls survive. Post rut rifle are lower, more bulls survive

So if you are worried about management, or point creep, you are anti early rifle.

If SFW(Troy) is against it. Hunters ate against it. Who is pushing it?

Dudes who makemoney a a tiny few HUGE bulls.

 

[notdonhunting]

Grizz you are right moving the hunt back a week wont do any good I dont think moving it back two weeks would do good.
It probably would depend on the unit, north units you could do earlier in october where south units might need to be towards the end of October. The first thing is the DWR needs to get over the idea we can not have elk and deer hunt running simultaneously.
Move the rifle elk hunt back into the second weekend or maybe even the last weekend of October. Succes goes down so you can increase permits. I would dare to guess you could increase rifle elk permit numbers by 20 percent. You also move all them hunters out of the rut you will most likely increase calf production from more cows being fertilized on first cycle.
Just my opinion I am not a biologist.

 

[notdonhunting]

The screen shot was. After hunting on the Wasatch this year I agree with him on it. I agree with him on moving the early rifle.

I'm pretty sure it was Jay Scott where they specifically spent time on the late Dutton and how it kills the top bulls that migrate in from other units. Then I saw Troy talk about it. Then heard it. I just posted the 2 times I could remember.

But it way an outfitter interviewing and outfitter on something that wasn't good for business.

And it probably isn't. I have no real dog in that fight other than as usual when Tri shoots off his mouth I find joy in googling the answer to show him incorrect.

I had Manti late tag years ago. I've been on that tag 4 times. Those late hunts are fun, but rut hunting is 100x funner. No secret.

They pay better too. No secret.
The demand is higher. No secret
They auction higher. No
secret

Guys that can buy them, obviously pay outfitters more. No secret

I'm not sure how guides wanting to be able to keep more big bulls alive for next year's higher paying customers is bad, or a secret.

It's just business.

They are buisnessmen.

Troy wasn't too concerned with the Cache late hunt. Fair to say because there isn't big money hunting it?

Archery during rut, the muzzy, then rifle. Archery success is lower, more bulls survive. Muzzy is lower, more bulls survive. Post rut rifle are lower, more bulls survive

So if you are worried about management, or point creep, you are anti early rifle.

If SFW(Troy) is against it. Hunters ate against it. Who is pushing it?

Dudes who makemoney a a tiny few HUGE bulls.

Hoss I do not disagree with most of what you say.
But that screen shot that you included I took it a little different. Yes he was talking about the Wasatch about splitting it using Highway 40.
But then he says come up with a new hunt calendar and move the elk hunts out of the rut.
I take that as meaning all early rifle elk hunts, I might be wrong but go back and read it again.

 

[hossblur]

Vanilla so do you support moving the LE rifle elk hunts out of the rut or not?

Vanilla,

I'm not claiming to know a lot about it. I'm just claiming you don't have any proof that SFW has a anti-elk DIY motive. And Hossblur as usual has jumped in to save you but has only thrown more mud in the water.

Yup. Because me and Vanilla always agree.

As always, the spin.

We are talking about a SPECIFIC HUNT on a SPECIFIC unit.

Like I've said now 5 times. $fw voiced concern on THIS UNIT, THIS HUNT.

Why?

It can't be not hunting late, we do statewide. Can't be not hunting winter grounds, we do everywhere else.

Why this one concern Tri?
(Hint, it's in the screen shot, Troy says it.)

 

[hossblur]

Hoss I do not disagree with most of what you say.
But that screen shot that you included I took it a little different. Yes he was talking about the Wasatch about splitting it using Highway 40.
But then he says come up with a new hunt calendar and move the elk hunts out of the rut.
I take that as meaning all early rifle elk hunts, I might be wrong but go back and read it again.

You could be correct. Be he is particularly interested enough in the Dutton, that he brought it up twice(I feel like I saw it elsewhere but I don't have proof).

Personally. Dealing with the cluster that is the San Juan, Beaver, Bolder, I have never applied for any of them. Including the Dutton late. So I have no personal issue.

But, when I heard noise about that late hunt, tgen here comes Troy pushing $fw weight, my spidy senses tingles. Enough so that when Vanilla said, I knew exactly where there was 2 statements in print.

I'm not normally enough of a geek that I read all the minutes, or other publications.

THANKS TO AMY, i do listen to all the WB.
Troy seems fine to me. But he is representing a SPECIFIC group. And that group sales high end tags to deep pockets.

I dont think it's a huge stretch to see his motives might be influenced by his employer?

Btw. Jay Scott was critical of the early hunt. The guide(i want to say DC, but im not 100% sure, i know Jay talk a to him) wasn't arguing it much. But it would be pretty unfair to expect him to criticize his biggest money maker.

It was a straight forward discussion. And I dont think of Troy was toeing the $fw/outfitter line, makes him a bad guy.

But as a DIY guy, I'm not interested in what guides think. To me they should have to more say than any other business in Utah.

What I do know. Vanilla knows something. You know something. I know something. 98% of the dudes who wade into these discussions know something.

The 2% that live in Houston, or are just fanboys, don't.

 

[Tristate]

I'm not concerned. I'm just amused when I see someone take a little bit of information and decide to BS everyone into thinking its evidence of one of their hair brain conspiracies.

 

[Tikka]

I think if SFW said “the sun rises in the east and sets in the west” there would be some that would disagree with that...

 

[Vanilla]

I think if SFW said “the sun rises in the east and sets in the west” there would be some that would disagree with that...

Well, technically it is only due east and due west on the equinox dates. But, who is keeping track?

 

[hossblur]

I think if SFW said “the sun rises in the east and sets in the west” there would be some that would disagree with that...

Technically the earth rotates around. The sun don't move????

 

[Tikka]

Technically the earth rotates around. The sun don't move????

????