Flag burning

I believe that Americans who burn the flag in protest should be deported to a country where it is expected of you to burn the American flag. Send them over there and see how they like their new found "freedoms".
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]Interesting perspective. Burning the flag is the panicle of political expression, and the keystone to the freedoms and the purpose for which this nation was founded. In an open system whose constitution protects its citizens from government intrusion it must be okay to act in direct difiance of the government. The USA was founded on the rights of individualas, not the rights of the king - do you know your american history or what. Making a law to protect the flag is about as conservative as the FDR New Deal. . .

I think people should be allowed to express their distain for this government by burning the flag. People who burn the flag do so at their own peril. I think it's just much to do about nothing. I respect the flag and the country, why do I have to force other's to do the same? The constitution protects people in the country from the tyranny of the majority when it comes to freedom and expression.

You may not like it, but you could always move to a communist country like china where they do more than deport you, for burning the flag, if they can find you they may kill you!
 
I agree with you 100% - about the only time I ever saw my grandpa cry (a WWII vet) was when we were watching some idiots burn the flag on the news. Tears streamed down from his face and he just said "Well - this is the freedom of speech I fought for."
I will never forget that day. Some things are sacred.

You've got to watch the video that goes along with it - make sure you click on the link that says "video" on the web page.


UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 09:43AM (MST)[p]

i live in bum nowhere where we have a two room school house with a small gym and 15 kids from kindergarten to 5th grade. We also are fortunate enought to have a 25k dial up connection, i cant watch streaming video. . . it take about 9 days to load MM, let alone watch video. although, MM is much better than almost all other sites for loading speeds.

Good post, I'd like to hear someone tell me why it should be against the law to burn the flag. . .

If there were a law protecting the flag from being burnd, the flag would lose some of it's respect and it's meaning.

By the way, how does one put down a flag at the end of it's life?

So, does this mean that if I think I'm buring it at the end of it's life it's okay to burn it, but if I think I'm burning it in protest, it's wrong? Come on I want to hear some conservatives tell me how making a law to protect the flag is at all a conservative principal. . .
 
I agree about the "freedom of expresion", but the flag does NOT represent "the government", it is a symbol of this COUNTRY...
 
elkabong, that is true, but the people are the government. So what is your point?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 09:59AM (MST)[p]I just think there are much better ways of expressing yourself than by burning a flag, it is irrerevrant, disrespectful and downright dispicable but I am grateful we live in a country where we have the freedom to be an idiot. However, now, you would be sent to Guantamo Bay for taking a can of lighter fluid and a match to a baseball game. Not for burning the flag - but for being a potential terrorist threat.

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
Ya know, I have to agree with you big bro (and Tony). Some moms I know had a discussion about this following one of the mom's 8 year old's first official political statement...a flag burning. He toasted an American Flag in a bbq pit while they were camping with some other kids and moms looking on, quietly respecting his right to do so.

I know my 8 year old son, who is very patriotic and a Cub Scout who takes his flag responsibilities seriously, would've probably cried if he had seen that and maybe even would've tried to pull a Rick Monday, but it also would've been a good lesson in showing him that here is a kid who is a cool kid, a GOOD kid, who just happens to have a different point of view and isn't it cool that we both live in a country that gives us the freedom to express ourselves. It doesn't make him a bad person, he's just got a different opinion and my Grandpa and uncles didn't go to war to fight for laws that suppress that kid's right to express his opinion. That's a good lesson to teach a kid, IMO.

I'd have a hard time pledging alleigance to anything I strongly disagreed with too though, as I'm sure we all would.
 
I am a conservative, note that does not mean the current Republican party, and I don't have an issue with flag burning. (I spent 6 years in the Army, served in the 1st AD during Desert Storm, spent 11 months in Turkey during operation provide comfort just to soldify my conservative Bona fides.)

Let me ask this: What reaction do those who burn the flag elicit from the "average" American? I would guess it doesn't play well with most "average" Americans. Do you think burning the flag is a threat to our way of life? Yes, the flag is something that is a symbol but it is not protected from burning for because it is a free speech issue.

I personally would never burn a flag, I still stand when Ole Glory is unfurled, I still get a patriotic feeling when the Star Spangled Banner is played. I just don't see flag burning as a threat to anything important in our Represtative Republic.

Nemont
 
I also think that people should be able to burn the flag as Tfinalshot Said, "at their peril". Meaning I will exercise my freedom as an American and extinguish their protest in a suitable manner.

In 1989 I was a young man hitch hiking through Australia. Reagan had just bombed Libya in retaliation for them bombing a night club filled with American servicemen. I was in Brisbane, Australia. Apparently in May there is a big parade which allows anyone to say just about anything. There was a group of Libyan men on a float that had banners condeming Reagan and America along with a torn up red, white, and blue flag. They were screaming anti American slogans. I couldn't let it pass without my comment so I stepped into the street next to them after following their float for about a block while I was getting progressively more angry) and yelled at the top of my lungs F******* Libyan Terrorists! My chin was thrust out and my fists clenched at my side. The reaction was incredible, The crowd was Australian and the Libyans, 3 of them, jumped off of their float and were running straight at me when two Policemam intercepted them. I had decided I would stand my ground even though I was outnumbered, I would not have run since I had shown the crowd I was an American.

One of the Policemen told me "that wasn't very smart" and told me to get off the street.

Fred Judson
BeanMan
 
The Pledge of Allegiance

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands,
one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Do any of you have a problem making this pledge? To our Republic, To our Nation, and believing in Libertay and Justice for all.

Burning a flag is not a protest against our current Government, it is a protest against this Pledge.

Protest our Government by Voting, Lobbying, Speaking out.

To me the burning of the flag is protesting FREEDOM. It is a horrible act of stupidity, done by those that have little or no understanding of what they really have.
 
"but the people are the government"
In the sence that the USA ia a democratic republic, ya, the people comprise the government.
My point is, if someone burns the flag to protest "the government", it seems to me they are really protesting against the currant batch of fat-heads that happen to be in power, so what they really should be burning is stained blue dresses or boxes of service records or... whatever.
The flag is a symbol of the country, the people, the ideals we share... etc... etc...
That is why the argument could be made for protection.
 
>Do any of you have a
>problem making this pledge? To
>our Republic, To our Nation,
>and believing in Libertay and
>Justice for all.
>
>Burning a flag is not a
>protest against our current Government,
>it is a protest against
>this Pledge.
>
>Protest our Government by Voting, Lobbying,
>Speaking out.
>
>To me the burning of the
>flag is protesting FREEDOM. It
>is a horrible act of
>stupidity, done by those that
>have little or no understanding
>of what they really have.

Does a "horrible act of stupidity" threathen our freedom in anyway? If a person has "little to no undersstand of what they really have" are they a threat to your freedoms as outlined in our constitution?

I believe the pledge states "with libery and justice for all" not just the few or the lucky or rich or conservative or liberal.

I don't make a connection of burning the flag as a protest of having freedom. It is an expression of freedom just as the reaction of most Americans to burning the flag is an expression of freedom. If you ban flag burning where to you stop?

Nemont
 
I'm with nemont and the others on this one. I cant imagine any conservative person supporting more laws that will enable the government to have more power over us, and limit our freedoms, the very freedoms that people die to protect.

I also cant imagine giving attention to a person who burns the dessicrates the flag by burning it. I think each person will be judged by their actions.

It's hard for me to believe that there are people who would get so upset about someone buring the flag, or supporting some one's right to do so, by saying that the supporters should be burned. The person who posted that will be judged for it. . . just as I will be judged for supporting personal liberty and justice for all. . .
 
While I agree it is a right, a freedom of speech. That only applies to Americans. If some SOB comes to my country and tries to burn my flag that is where the problem lies. Don't think for a minute that other countries aren't watching. The illegal Mexicans are doing it right now. Not necessarly burning the American Flag, yet. But they have tried to change the National Anthem to Spanish words. So I guess my point is where do you draw the line? I say you draw the line and make it a point to everybody that you will not desecrate our flag no matter who you are.






Nothing like guttin' a 6x6 elk at 7:30 in the morning.
 
"I cant imagine any conservative person supporting more laws that will enable the government to have more power over us, and limit our freedoms, the very freedoms that people die to protect."

Like limiting our ability to drive what car we want, have as many kids as we want...You speak with forked tongue TF.

Say what you want, I think it is wrong!
 
Thanks Tylercreek2...I appreciate the support here.
Maybe we should allow graffiti on our national monuments? Hey I really feel like throwing trash out the window of my BIG TRUCK in a national park is an expression of dissatisfacition with our government...I want to drive my Harley in Yellowstone, TF you ok with that. I am just trying to show I have freedom.

OK, large forked tongue.
 
>Thanks Tylercreek2...I appreciate the support here.
>
>Maybe we should allow graffiti on
>our national monuments? Hey I
>really feel like throwing trash
>out the window of my
>BIG TRUCK in a national
>park is an expression of
>dissatisfacition with our government...I want
>to drive my Harley in
>Yellowstone, TF you ok with
>that. I am just trying
>to show I have freedom.
>
>
>OK, large forked tongue.

Throwing trash out the window in a national park is outlawed because it harms the enviroment and others enjoyment. What is harmed by burning the flag? Somebodies feeling or sensibilities? That is not even remotely close to burning the flag. Apples and oranges.

Again answer the question regarding how burning the flag directly threathens out way of life and our Representative Democracy?

Nemont
 
It's amazing to me that anyone would even consider there is no harm in burning the American Flag in the name of freedom. That's exactly what the flag stands for. And then to turn around and burn it becaused your pissed at the government. What exactly does that say for the person burning the flag?





Nothing like guttin' a 6x6 elk at 7:30 in the morning.
 
"I can't imagine any conservative person supporting more laws that will enable the government to have more power over us, and limit our freedoms, the very freedoms that people die to protect." I'm not necessarily saying I completely agree with less government, but if you're a true conservative, you do, and you guys are the one's wholly rollers of conservatism on this site, well almost. I'm quite surprise that you all could generate your own thoughts with SoTex, or I mean 202typical gone on his hunt.

So lets deal with the flag burning, and topic of this post first and then we can debate the reasons for other rules and laws. Later, use those examples; they are good ones because in some cases I disagree with how they were written and what they really accomplish. In some cases those rules were written, in part, to make car companies more money - now you're going to change your tune and be against more money for the auto industries?

The point I am trying to make is we don't need to deal with a very insignificant issue by writing new laws, especially ones that alter the basis of our representative democracy and limit personal freedoms. I can play any side of any issue at any time if I want, I'm more of an independent and free thinker than I am a republican or democrat. How about a Catocrat. I analyze issues not party lines.

It also is very interesting to see some of you guys act like big conservatives yet when it comes to being conservatives you cut, run and make darn sure your policies don't match with your words.

So back again to the issues. Tell us why is it justifiable to waste so much money and time debating flag burning, (they must have spent weeks on this now, on the Hill) why not just require the companies that make flags to use fireproof material? That would be much simpler, and it would not really take individual rights away. And, you guy wont have to watch your flag being burned on national TV - when was the last time you saw that? It's another one of those issues that never really happens, yet we need a law to ban it.

Nemont is right again. You are comparing very different issues. Lets get back to the point, and I want to see what you and other's have to say about WHY it should be illegal to burn the flag - what is the justification for writing the law? Why would we do it? What would it do to strengthen the fabric of this country?

Lets hear the other side of this issues, give us something to hang a hat on at least. . .
 
"It's amazing to me that anyone would even consider there is no harm in burning the American Flag in the name of freedom. That's exactly what the flag stands for. And then to turn around and burn it becaused your pissed at the government. What exactly does that say for the person burning the flag?"


That is exactly my point. Well said Me2Hhunter!
 
Then I ask this, and without answering with the obvious answer, but stick to your argument in that " alter the basis of our representative democracy and limit personal freedoms".

Why is it illegal to shot a bald eagle?




Nothing like guttin' a 6x6 elk at 7:30 in the morning.
 
It is illegal first because of the bald eagle protection act of 1940, second the endagered species act protects them, i think they were listed back in the early 70's but now are down graded to threatend - they were listed first due to deaths caused by 1080 and DDT.

By they way, if I'm not mistaken, the bald eagle is a bird? I think birds are animals. Are you trying to draw a correlation between the bald eagle and the flag? Are you suggesting that both are just symbols?
 
Well you gave the obvious answer and didn't stick to you premise of how shooting a bald eagle would "alter the basis of our representative democracy and limit personal freedoms".

And yes, the bald eagle is a symbol of the United States of America along with the American flag, at least that is what our fore fathers adopted.

I will say this, that is a broad comparison on my part, I was just trying to illustrate that the American flag is just as scared as the bald eagle (to me)





Nothing like guttin' a 6x6 elk at 7:30 in the morning.
 
I think those are Nemonts words.

"alter the basis of our representative democracy and limit personal freedoms"
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 04:31PM (MST)[p]Why is it illegal to burn a cross on your front lawn as an expression of freedom, but perfectly legal to burn the American flag? A double standard IMO.

If you're for flag burning surely you must be for cross burning also.

I think both should be illegal. And for the same reason.

Steve
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 04:43PM (MST)[p]I did not know it was illegal to burn a cross. I wonder why. I wonder why I did not know that, and I wonder why it's illegal.

Does anyone know why it's illegal to burn a cross. I'm pretty sure that if I burnd a cross in my yard no one would shot up to arrest me. I never would do such a thing, but I cant imaging someone aresting me for haveing a small fire, in the shape of a cross in my yard. You sure your not talking about a fire ordinance? How would you define a cross?
 
Concerning the Supreme Courts ruling allowing States to ban cross burning; April 2003.....

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1048518258780

"Jurisdictions that have anti-cross-burning laws similar to Virginia's include California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Montana, North Carolina, South Carolina, South Dakota, Vermont, Washington, and the District of Columbia."

Steve
 
LOL!!

Cross burnings usually envolve guys with white sheets or bald heads with very narrow points of view!
That must be a small dang town, there, T-shot...
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 05:34PM (MST)[p]That's interesting. I knew there was more to the story. . .

"But the Supreme Court also said that under some circumstances, cross burning could be a form of expression protected by the First Amendment."

I'm not trying to protect or support cross burning, just thought that it was an intersting decison. . .
 
I'm sorry I'm a podunc, but I was not really aware of why crosses were burned. I grew up with blacks, mexicans, indians, and asians and i never remember there being problems until I got older, much older. still to this day, i really never associated cross burning with the KKK. I still dont understand why the KKK burns a cross, do you?

So, it makes a good point however, and that's that cross burning was made illegal in a few states, because it's considered a hate crime, it might as well have made yard fires illegal, it's not about the cross, it's a bout the hate and the people who burn the cross. I think you would find it hard to associate flag burning with linching and killing.
 
Yes, I guess you can burn a cross as a form of expression, but not as a form of intimidation. How one would accomplish that, I don't know. Burn it in a place that nobody else could see, I suppose? But then how is that freedom of expression?

So some States have outlawed the practice as a form of conduct.

(as near as I can figure, since I'm no lawyer, LOL)

Steve
 
This is a concept that is difficult for some to wrap their minds around.
.
Freedom of speech protects unpopular speech.
.
I strongly disagree with those that currently burn the flag, but will fight to protect this freedom that this great country allows.
.

Now back up a minute....
.

Suppose that due to the unpopularity of the current administration that there is a huge liberal uprising and a lot of the fence sitters elect a government that is totally liberal and quasi socialist.
Hunting is banned, huge restrictions put on firearm ownership, gay marriage is made legal, huge tax burdens are imposed on the citizenry, no off road vehicles, bans on trapping and fishing.
.
.

Would you burn the flag in protest?

HH
 
>
>Do any of you have a
>problem making this pledge? To
>our Republic, To our Nation,
>and believing in Libertay and
>Justice for all.
>
I don't have a problem with it, no. It is a bit weird, but I understand why we do it and I have a deep respect for this country and its symbols. But I said if I DID have a problem with this country and its symbols, I would have a hard time pledging allegiance to it.(but I don't)

I belive in Liberty and Justice for all, absolutely. That's why I think flag burning should remain legal. Do I like flag burning? Heck no! But once we start stifling free speech where does it stop? Do we start stopping all parades that celebrate things we don't agree with? I don't like to see neo-nazi rallies parading down the street, but their right to assemble is also protected under the constitutional ammendments of this country and there is nothing I can do about it except ignore it and don't give them the attention they seek. Same with flag burners. There are whole lot worse things people do than burn flags, imo.

Jenn
 
HH,

Thank you for pointing that out.

I think all the time and energy regarding this issue is stupid.

As for why we can't shoot eagles it is because there are a finite number of eagles. In addition shooting eagles would not have any impact on our Representative Republic (as as aside we don't live in a democracy) but the permanent loss of eagles as a species was consider to be too great a loss therefore they were protected. Again the another flag can be made any time. BIG difference.

You can what if all day. Flag burning is a bad way to express ones views, it descrates a symbol of freedom, it raises passions in the hearts of red blooded Americans, it disgusts most yet it should be protected speech. Sorry if you cannot see that.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-06 AT 07:25PM (MST)[p]HH, If all that happened it would be illegal to burn the flag. Because of the air pollution, and the global warming thing!:)

I could not burn the flag. I would fight to turn things around, but not burn the flag.

Isn't burning a cross also a form of unpopular free speech?

Steve
 
The flag represents the values of which this country was founded, not the people running it.

The flag itself is just a piece of cloth, the ideas for which it stands are what is important.

You know what really "burns" me though? When you see a bunch of people that have no legal right being here in the first place, who say they come here to better their lives, who say they risk their well being to make the journey here, most of them cannot even speak the language, stand in protest, waiving the flag of the country they just fled from, while disrespecting ours.
 
Very intelligent well thought out example HH I hope its understood. I personally would not burn the flag but I would speak out against the administration and do all I could to limit its power much like I do against the present administration. Isn't this a great country that we can do that? Taking the power to burn the flag away would never change peoples opinion that don't love this country. "Judge a country by the number of people that want to come into it." I can't remember who deserves credit for that quote but it is certainly true.
 
It's real easy to puff up your chest and say that any person that burns the flag is a limp wristed fag that needs to find another country.

You need to think things out.

Most of my family are cops.
I just had a nephew, a U.S. Marine, blown up in Iraq.

Freedom is what this country is founded upon.

NOT just freedoms that I agree with.

IF this country eroded into a place that took all of the things that I hold precious, I would hope that my last freedom would be that of speech and expression to lead the next revolution.

THINK....

HH
 
TF can you tell me why my post was nuked. Was it because I hold the flag to a higer standard than you? Please enlighten me what rules of the site were violated. So much for the freedom of speech you hold so high huh. You shouldnt be moderating posts that disagree with you, thats what the rules are for.

Mike
 
Here we go again. Another guy who cant or wont read the rules.

I tried to handle this in a PM. You post was taken down because you called me and other?s a dumbass. . . . Most of the moderators here use their discretion, as do I. However, I will not tolerate people calling me or others a dumbass.

Once again, here are the rules, there's a link at the top of the page called "rules." I recomend you read them. . .

* No foul, obscene, vulgar, sexually oriented, hateful, threatening, or abusive language is allowed. This includes words that include * and $ that are used in place of characters. Most people still know what the word is and what it means. It is offensive and will be removed.

* No threads are allowed that single out an individual. If you have a problem with someone, or disagree with the way in which a person acts or what a person has done, take it up with them. DO NOT post it in our forums. Any messages that mention a persons name may be removed.

* Please, do not post messages that question our moderating. If you have a question or complaint, please email us. If posted on the board, it will be removed.
 
I think I try to represent moderate view points (often taken as liberal) so this may be out of character for me but I don't think they should make it illegal to burn the flag (supporting freedom of speach) but I do think they should pass a law making it a very minor misdemeanor for one (no mob) person to beat the h3ll out of someone they see burning the flag. That way they both get to express themselves. There's consequences for each act but hopefully not life threatening or ending... hopefully.


"There is an island of opportunity in the middle of every difficulty. Miss that, though, and you're pretty much screwed..."
 
Great debate - and some great points. Personally I hold the flag and all that it stands for as sacred, but burning a flag is very different from defacing a national monument or littering in a national park. First off - those are public domain - owned by everyone collectively. The flag, though it represents to many of us ideals that we hold sacred, is, as has been pointed out, a piece of cloth that CAN BE OWNED AS PRIVATE PROPERTY and as such, you have the right, within the bounds of the law as directed by local fire ordinances etc. etc. (it is not the same as burning your house down to collect insurance $$ - a crime), to burn it if you want. Again - I would never do it and I would certainly kick my 8 year old kid's butt so far up between his shoulders that he would have to look up to wipe if he burned one in a fire pit in protest - (he can learn to keep his opinions to himself until he is an adult) - but I would (and my dad has, and my grandfathers and their brothers have) fight for your right to do so. It would sadden me deeply to see you walk upon that symbol of freedom and liberty but I would know that my efforts have not been in vain and that you are free to do so. That is what is important - that is the real issue - that those freedoms themselves are more important than the symbols that represent them. If we take those freedoms away then the symbol doesn't mean what it should and becomes a facade. That's why our soldiers fight - that's why they are in Iraq and Afghanistan - to protect our freedoms. Yes, they rally around that glorious banner of stars and stripes, but they fight for the freedoms and liberties that we enjoy in this great land. They fight for us and our way of life - not for a piece of cloth. Let them burn the flag. Betsy will sew us a new one. But don't let them take our freedom because once it's gone - an all out war is the only thing that will ever bring it back.

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
appl.gif
 
For once a subject where most of the post are thought out and use logic over emotion, maybe there's hope.
 
Yea yea... thought out?
What would Mearle say?
Oh...ya... here 'yar...


I hear people talkin' bad,
About the way we have to live here in this country,
Harpin' on the wars we fight,
An' gripin' 'bout the way things oughta be.
An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides,
An' standin' up for things they believe in.
When they're runnin' down my country, man,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

I read about some squirrely guy,
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'.
An' I wonder just how long,
The rest of us can count on bein' free.
They love our milk an' honey,
But they preach about some other way of livin'.
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
 
Well now if Merle said it put your brains away we're done here. don't get me wrong I grew up on Haggard, Paycheck and Waylon but I think I'll keep them out of politics. thinking like Bubba is what got us into Iraq, let's try to do better from now on.
 
Well I don't know... I wouldn't say that's think'n like "bubba", who ever that may be. I'd say it's think'n like " you have the right to say 'an do "whatever" in protest, 'an if it's duragatory to the flag or country, I'll reserve the right ta kick yer a$$. Perty plain.
'An "think'n like bubba" did not get us into this war, uh... I believe it was a bunch of coward-murder'n jerk-wad's kill'n 3000+ inocent people on American soil( twin towers? ring a bell?), or drive'n a truck-bomb into the marine barics in Beruit... or slamm'n a boat-bomb into the US Cole...'an maybee gett'n rid of a lunatic, genecidal maniac that would stop at nothing to kill Americans....(or his own people 'an nieghbors it seems) as a bonus....
 
>Well now if Merle said it
>put your brains away we're
>done here. don't get me
>wrong I grew up on
>Haggard, Paycheck and Waylon but
>I think I'll keep them
>out of politics. thinking like
>Bubba is what got us
>into Iraq, let's try to
>do better from now on.
>


You are a moron.
 
Hmm, a moron because I don't live by the words of Haggard? or because I don't see where the war in Iraq has helped us at all? either way that really hurts. boy you put me in my place so let's take this thread back to the flag burning issue while I dig out my 8 tracks and seek guidance.
 
My opinion----I don't like flag burners or gays and many other people but TF is right about what our country stands for. Freedom and the freedom of speech and the freedom to express ourselves and to do anything we want to do as long as it does not harm others. I like Hunter Harry's example of "what if" our government totally legalized gay marraige and a few other things he mentioned. Would "WE" or "I" burn the flag in protest? I personally would not! The flag stands for freedom, liberty and justice for all and burning it to protest somebody elses rights would make me a hypocrit. When you are burning the flag you are burning the symbol of liberty, justice and freedom instead of addressing the true meaning of your protest. But in the minds of the protesters they are protesting America and the restrictions put upon them or some other issue they don't agree with. Maybe they do not realize that they are burning the symbol of freedom, justice and liberty. In reality they should address the true issue and protest in another way. But burning the flag gets attention which is what they are after to get thier point accross. So they are burning the symbol that actually allows them to have the freedom to burn it in the first place. I don't think it should be against the law for someone to burn the flag but I won't stand by and watch them do it. Like Rick Monday I will try to grab it and run waving it gloriousley as I ran with it and I would call THAT my freedom of speech. And if I had to fight because of this action then so be it. This may seem narrow minded especially because I can see the protesters right of freedom of speech but I feel that they are missing the correct issue and the correct way of protesting. It is creating a public nusciance to start a fire and burn a flag or any object in a public place for safety reasons alone not to mention causing disturbances and potential political uprisings. If you want to protest then do it in the right place. Not on a baseball field or other public place. I would consider it my duty to try and deter or stop such a public action in a public place wether the flag was involved or not.
So here is my question.....Do you think that Rick Monday was wrong in taking the protesters flag? Should he have stood back and allowed the protesters to burn the flag in the outfield and have thier moment of free speech??????? fatrooster.
 
I guess you could say he was wrong because he did steal something that belonged to the protesters. on the other hand I don't think what he did was wrong as it was his expression of free speach. this is just my opinion but if someone can stop a flag burning with nobody getting hurt I'm all for it but no laws should be passed against those who choose to burn a flag.
 
good posts foot. . .

I think if one is willing to take the risk, it's okay to run off with the flag... I guess it's up to each to figure out what's worth losing your life over. . .

Flag burners are "out-there" and it would not surprise me to take a bullet in the back, if I were to run off with a flag. . .
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-06 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]I think that Rick Monday did the right thing - that is why I posted it. His actions said more and are more poignant and important than burning a flag will ever do. Here's why he was right - the action took place in a private domain (Dodger's Satdium at Chavez Ravine is PRIVATE PROPERTY) and as such the protesters would have had to have express consent (and a permit) to do so. They didn't so their protest was illegal - they were trespassing and Monday did the right thing. If however they had a permit to assemble in a public place or were on their own private property then it would be a different story. I would still have cheered for him or someone who did the same, because I think flag burning is repugnant and reprehensible - but they would then be at the mercy of the law for infringing upon someone else's first ammendment rights and would probably have to answer to the law for doing such. I did a similar thing when I pulled an offensive bumper sticker off of an idiot's car once. I didn't like it, it was offensive and repugnant and I would have cringed if my wife would have seen it, so I pulled it off. I got busted and almost arrested for destruction of private property. In my mind, did I do the right thing? Yes, but in the eyes of the law I was wrong so I had to replace it, and subsequently the way I thought about it. I was wrong and I had to change. I didn't like it but that is the way it is. That idiot had his right to say what he wanted with his bumper sticker and I took it away, took it off of his private property. Now, if he had came in to my house, or my private place of business and posted it somewhere, I, like Rick Monday would have been right by my own conscience and by the law.

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
> Whatever, like I said
>" most " of the
>post were thought out and
>logical.


LOL!!!
H-dude, ya make me chuckle!
Ya gotta un-clench a little, man!
 
For those of you who think burning the flag is okay and the "pinacle of freedom of speach"........I'd say letting the rest of us piss on your grave someday, the same way you piss on the grave of all those who hve died to protect this flag, would be the PINNACLE of freedom of speach. I'm saving up right now.

You also have the right to pick your butt and eat it but some of us know better. There's just some things you shouldn't do.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
"You also have the right to pick your butt and eat it but some of us know better. There's just some things you shouldn't do."

That's kind of the point we have been saying all along.

I think that if you read all the posts carefully you would see that none of us agree with flag burning - we all think it is wrong, but that a flag, while it is a symbol - is just that - a symbol, an inatimate object and as such if you burn it, while stupid and reprehensible, constitutes an exercise of a bigger value - THE ACTUAL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ITSELF. That is more important than the symbol that stands for it.

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
 
Hey man, I speak for myself, but if you would like to degrade yourself by pissing on my grave, or burning the flag, knock yourself out! I'll be dead and in a box, or who know's maybe i'll be eaten by a bear or just fall off some cliff some place and never be found. . .

But, keep in mind if you degrade others, you still have to live with yourself!

Piece
 
Rimrock,
You don't need to be called names, your post make it easy enough to figure it out where you're coming from, not very mature if you're past Jr. high.

Bubba isn't a term I'd use to complement someones intellectual prowess if that's what you're asking.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-06 AT 07:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-06 AT 07:32?PM (MST)

Wow huntindude what brought that on?You just think you have to jump right in and cut some one down?...Not very Mature! Glad someone as great as yourself put me straight!If you was to read my post I wasn't asking YOU a darn thing.Or do you think you have to respond to posts that are not addressed to you?:RIMROCK
 
Rimrock,
Where I come from when you call someone a name then it envolves that person. if you can't make a post civil enough it's not deleted then don't act like you're shocked when everybody can only read half of what was said.
 
TF, that's the point! Burning on the flag is DEGRADING YOURSELF! It's like burning down your own house in protest. Seems a bit silly and immature.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
huntindude,
My bad totally...I see where you're coming from. Glad we got that straight. My response was only a question I had about Post #47. No harm meant and no name calling. I don't make it a habit of belittling people. I'll be the first to admit I'm not perfect or as mature as some on this site, but thats just me.:RIMROCK
 
I've always wondered how many guys on this site are really jr. high boys just starting to feel the testerone kicking in and really full of theirselves.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-06 AT 08:24PM (MST)[p]Hey Aspen, Seems we agree, are you sure youre not a liberal?

Last I new, there were no laws against silly and immature.
 
Interesting perspective. Burning the flag is the panicle of political expression, and the keystone to the freedoms and the purpose for which this nation was founded. In an open system whose constitution protects its citizens from government intrusion it must be okay to act in direct difiance of the government. The USA was founded on the rights of individualas, not the rights of the king - do you know your american history or what. Making a law to protect the flag is about as conservative as the FDR New Deal. . .

I think people should be allowed to express their distain for this government by burning the flag. People who burn the flag do so at their own peril. I think it's just much to do about nothing. I respect the flag and the country, why do I have to force other's to do the same? The constitution protects people in the country from the tyranny of the majority when it comes to freedom and expression.

You may not like it, but you could always move to a communist country like china where they do more than deport you, for burning the flag, if they can find you they may kill you!

"T" I could not agree more.
So now I have two things we can agree on.
 
I told you we could sit around a fire in BS over a few duffs.

Gongrats on your buck. lets see some photos. . .
 
202,
You need to get away more often, now you're making sense.
sounds like you got a nice buck, congrats.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-13-06 AT 09:30AM (MST)[p]202, I agree, it is an effective way to express your opinion. But not of the government. I don't agree with Hatch's law. It should not be against the law to burn the flag.

But, I think I have enough respect for what this country is, what it has been, and what it will be, to not burn the flag. I think that voting or protesting in more civil ways would be more effective. Burning the flag seems to be very similar to a child throwing a fit on the floor. If you don't like what is going on then send letters expressing your opinion, start a coalition, sign a petition, vote, campaign, run for office, etc. But don't go burn the flag, the very flag we sing about in the Star Spangled Banner. Don't go burn the flag you pledged allegance to.

You may not have pledged allegance to the government, but we have all pledged to the flag, our fallen soldiers, our fore fathers, our children. The flag does not represent the government. It represents you and I and when you burn it it desacreates the same individuals.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
"You may not have pledged allegance to the government, but we have all pledged to the flag, our fallen soldiers, our fore fathers, our children. The flag does not represent the government. It represents you and I and when you burn it it desacreates the same individuals.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." "

I could not agree more with that statement. I view falg burning as the most disgusting and disgracefull form of demonstration. I doubt that if I were a witness to someone burning the flag I could hold myself from punching the scumbag square in the nose. However I will not begrudge a person his right to protest by creating a law banning flag burning. We have enough of our rights taken away every day we do not need another one.

Freedom of speach is the most powerful right we have as Americans and is what makes us the greatest nation ever on planet earth.
 
I find burning the American flag a discrace and a dishonor to me, our country and our military veterans past and present.
For anyone like myself who has served this great country in the military and is a true patriot, you know what I'm talking about.

I would never desicrate the flag of another country regardless. There are a lot of countries I don't like and protest in my own way, but burning their flag is not one of them.
For a person to have that much hatred should be looked at hard. They are a threat and should be dealt with.

It has never happened in front of me, but if I ever witnessed someone burning the American flag in front of me, I will show them my freedom of expression by kicking the living $h!t out of them and every minute of it would be worth it.






"VELOX MORTIS"
 
So, what did you fight to protect while you were in the service? Was it the land of the brave and the home of the FREE?

Like Ive said before, I won't burn it, but burning that flag, is the pinnacle of expression, and if we make simpleton laws like, you cant burn the flag, who's going to be the flag monitor? Whos going to get in your head and find out what you were thinking when you burned it? It is not, nor will it ever be completely illegal to burn the flag, right?

So, you fight for this country, but only for those values that YOU THINK are worth fighting for - that's not fighting for this country thats fighting for your vision of this country. I think the bill of rights was developed to protect us from people who get carried away with limiting person freedom. Youve been in, what's the bill of rights say?

Good of you to serve, thanks for your time, I wonder how many other guys would say the same as you? How many would say, yep, I'm fighting for my country but only the people who agree with my philosophy.

I'm not saying its RIGHT to burn the flag, I'm saying it should BE our right to burn the flag. And the people that choose to burn it, will have to live with the consequences. . .
 

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