forest thinning helping mule deer?

billrquimby · Aug 26, 2008

I've observed our mule deer herds here in the White Mountains since my first trip up here as a boy in 1948, and seen them go from when we could see 300-400 deer in a day in the late 1960s and early 1970s to when we were lucky to see one or two in a week in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Our mule deer decline seemed to follow the growth in elk numbers here in Unit 1 and 27.

Each year for the past three years, though, I've been seeing more and more deer every time I go out. Recently, for example, I saw three herds with more than 20 does and fawns each in meadows above Greer where I live April through October. It's been a long time since I've seen anywhere near 60 deer in a single day up here.

Lots of people talk about drought surpressing deer numbers, but IMHO our deer started coming back when the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest got serious about thinning the forest to reduce fire danger after the Rodeo Fire.

Anyone have thoughts or similar observations on this?

Bill Quimby

redrabbit · Aug 27, 2008

Bill,
The 3-Bar study showed that drought was not the cause for reduced fawn survival, but rather the culprit was 4 legged carnivores. How has the coyote population been around Greer? Has cattle grazing also been reduced on the FS near Greer?

I suspect thinning also helped by opening areas and allowing new forb and brush growth for feed. Elk probably liked the increase in grasses also. Uniform thinning can't be good for bedding and turkey nesting areas though. Sometimes I think the USFS thinning is done with blinders on with regard to wildlife.

Doug~RR

billrquimby · Aug 27, 2008

LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-08 AT 01:31PM (MST)[p]Doug:

I haven't seen or heard a coyote near Greer for several years (wish I could say the same about the antelope country around Springerville and Eagar). The FWS has released wolves near Green's Peak, and from what I've heard wolves do a good job of "controlling" their smaller cousins.

It's been years since cattle grazing was detrimental to wildlife numbers in this area, in my mind at least.

In my opinion, opening the forest has encouraged the growth of browse that was lacking in a stagnant forest, and added more "edges" that deer seek.

Whatever the reason, deer numbers around Greer where I go regularly, such as Carnero, Mexican Hay, Sunrise , and Big lakes, etc., seem to be on their way back.

Bill Quimby

Snapshot · Aug 27, 2008

I certainly believe that all those things factor into the equation for sure. Take for example my favorite area Unit 27, back in the late 70' when I started hunting it, there were 5000-6000 permits between the two hunts, now there are 950 total permits for mule deer and 365 for whitetail.I think Unit 1 deer permits plummeted as well
I feel that predation, lack of winter/spring rain and maybe displacement by elk are the main causes, the repopulation of the mexican gray wolve probably does not help, but I am no expert and this is just a guess. I am not sure about the possibility of overhunting?
That 3Bar study showed that if you keep coyotes out of the mix, fawn survival improves greatly.
There are alot of old growth areas that are good for cover, but not good for feed. The prescribed burns should help, time will tell with that end of things. I am headed up that way in about 10 days and I am curiuos to check out the burns and the Hot Aire fire area to see what things look like.

redrabbit · Aug 27, 2008

FWS may have broken the spokes on your deer wagon.

billrquimby · Aug 27, 2008

>FWS may have broken the spokes
>on your deer wagon.

Huh?

Snapshot · Aug 27, 2008

I believe thats a reference to our Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) re-introducing killers back into the wild.

billrquimby · Aug 28, 2008

>I believe thats a reference to
>our Fish and Wildlife Service
>(FWS) re-introducing killers back into
>the wild.

From what I've seen those killers apparently haven't hurt our deer yet.

Wolf introductions began before I started noticing more deer around my summer cabin.

The only thing different has been the Forest Service's increased thinning efforts all around us.

Bill Quimby

Heat · Aug 28, 2008

I've noticed the same in 6B to a certain extent. It seems that there are way more deer these last few years than there were 10 years ago.

Nick

Snapshot · Aug 28, 2008

>>I believe thats a reference to
>>our Fish and Wildlife Service
>>(FWS) re-introducing killers back into
>>the wild.
>
>From what I've seen those killers
>apparently haven't hurt our deer
>yet.
>
>Wolf introductions began before I started
>noticing more deer around my
>summer cabin.
>
>The only thing different has been
>the Forest Service's increased thinning
>efforts all around us.
>
>Bill Quimby

Its good that folks are seeing more numbers of deer, maybe a slow rebound is on the horizon. we can only hope!.
As far as the wolves, I don't know anything except what I have read on the studies. It seems they prey more on elk and cattle than deer? I have seen one wolf in my adventures in unit 27 and that was 6 years ago. An area that I like to hunt was almost barren of deer that year and there were wolf tracks in the sandy creek bottoms in a couple of the drainages I was in, maybe they ran the deer out?, who knows. There is a considerable lion population in there as well as I find old kills all the time.

billrquimby · Aug 28, 2008

Have they been thinning forests in 6B also?

Bill Quimby

1glassinfool · Aug 28, 2008

Bill Quimby you better beleive it and it's gonna ruin every thing.

billrquimby · Aug 28, 2008

>Bill Quimby you better beleive it
>and it's gonna ruin every
>thing.

What's everything?
Why must I believe it?

Bill Quimby

GilaJeff · Aug 31, 2008

Bill, I seem to hear similar observations from many of the locals here in Round Valley. There are many pressures on the deer herds here; overhunting, drought, predators, and elk competition. Mule deer are highly adaptable to many habitat types from alpine to desert; from Canada to Mexico. Where ever they occur, they are associated with mid-seral vegetation. The thinning that the FS has done in the Greer area has, in my opinion, had a positive impact on the local deer herds. Deer prefer browse forage as well as forbs (grass makes up about 10-17% of a deers diet at different times of the year). With the removal of of the dense overstory, more light, water, and nutients are available for the herbaceous and woody understory. I am concerned that the remnant seed source for the preferred browse species is lacking along the transition deer range from Nutrioso to the Fish Creek area. Even if these browse plants are re-established, the elk hammer them back to nothing during the winter months. The same can be said for aspen suckers. Aspen is not only important to deer for forage, but also hiding cover. Past management practices have had a profound effect on today's deer numbers. Just look inside the highway right-of-way along Highway 180 south of Eagar in the Picnic Hill area. You will notice an abundance of cliffrose inside the right-of-way, but none in the pastures where cattle had access to the plants in the past. It would be good if the FS could spread browse seed in all the areas they are thinning. If the FS can treat large enough tracts to allow enough rejuvination of browse and forb plants to stay ahead of the heavy elk use, deer numbers should continue to increase. As for the coyotes, I see plenty around Greer. Just spend some time glassing the grasslands on the north side of Highway 260, between the Greer turn-off, and the reservation boundary. I frequently see them there, and that is a core area for wolves.

billrquimby · Aug 31, 2008

>Bill, I seem to hear similar
>observations from many of the
>locals here in Round Valley.
> There are many pressures
>on the deer herds here;
>overhunting, drought, predators, and elk
>competition. Mule deer are
>highly adaptable to many habitat
>types from alpine to desert;
>from Canada to Mexico.
>Where ever they occur, they
>are associated with mid-seral vegetation.
> The thinning that the
>FS has done in the
>Greer area has, in my
>opinion, had a positive impact
>on the local deer herds.
> Deer prefer browse forage
>as well as forbs (grass
>makes up about 10-17% of
>a deers diet at different
>times of the year).
>With the removal of of
>the dense overstory, more light,
>water, and nutients are available
>for the herbaceous and woody
>understory. I am concerned
>that the remnant seed source
>for the preferred browse species
>is lacking along the transition
>deer range from Nutrioso to
>the Fish Creek area.
>Even if these browse plants
>are re-established, the elk hammer
>them back to nothing during
>the winter months. The
>same can be said for
>aspen suckers. Aspen is
>not only important to deer
>for forage, but also hiding
>cover. Past management practices
>have had a profound effect
>on today's deer numbers.
>Just look inside the highway
>right-of-way along Highway 180 south
>of Eagar in the Picnic
>Hill area. You will
>notice an abundance of cliffrose
>inside the right-of-way, but none
>in the pastures where cattle
>had access to the plants
>in the past. It would
>be good if the FS
>could spread browse seed in
>all the areas they are
>thinning. If the FS
>can treat large enough tracts
>to allow enough rejuvination of
>browse and forb plants to
>stay ahead of the heavy
>elk use, deer numbers should
>continue to increase. As
>for the coyotes, I see
>plenty around Greer. Just
>spend some time glassing the
>grasslands on the north side
>of Highway 260, between the
>Greer turn-off, and the reservation
>boundary. I frequently see
>them there, and that is
>a core area for wolves.
>

Patxarano:

Your note makes me believe you are a wildlife manager. Are you with Arizona Game and Fish?

I'm tickled to have you confirm that my suspicions that thinning the forest provided more forbs and ultimately benefited deer were valid. It was the only thing I could think of to explain the numbers of deer I'm now seeing.

What would it take to get the forest service to spread browse seeds in targeted areas? Or to allow private parties to do it? Can ordinary citizens buy the seeds? It seems to me that this would be a great project for sportsmen's clubs.

I plan to try calling coyotes in the area you've described. What little predator hunting I've done up here has been in 2B, where there are so many coyotes binoculars aren't needed to find them.

Incidentally, is there a reason you've included overhunting in the list of "pressures" on mule deer in this area? Drought, maybe. Predators and elk competition, certainly. But the number of hunting permits issued for an area as large as Units 1 and 27 has not been excessive for many years -- at least in my opinion.

Bill Quimby