G&F survey

Bookhead

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I recently got a survey in my email from game and fish about my opinion on turning area 7 for elk into a general area did anyone else get this survey and I'm curious what your thoughts are. I am opposed to it
 

DaveD

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I recently got a survey in my email from game and fish about my opinion on turning area 7 for elk into a general area did anyone else get this survey and I'm curious what your thoughts are. I am opposed to it
I did. I'm all for making the private land general and making the public much more restricted public access. Similar to area 6. It won't solve the overall herd number problem but it will increase harvest and place more pressure on private imo.
 

Bookhead

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I did. I'm all for making the private land general and making the public much more restricted public access. Similar to area 6. It won't solve the overall herd number problem but it will increase harvest and place more pressure on private imo.
That is an interesting angle not a bad idea
 

Bookhead

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I'm opposed to it. Hunted it twice and was a great hunt. Benefits the big ranches with outfitters the most.
Agreed but like daveD mentioned if they made it general on private land only that could benefit limited quota hunters on public. The over all trophy quality I could see diminishing though with basically unlimited private land hunting
 

30Hart

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The private will still manage for quality they will just have to put less time and money into securing clients. Because LE hunters outside can't really hunt it enough they will still push all the elk on private.
 

Bookhead

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The private will still manage for quality they will just have to put less time and money into securing clients. Because LE hunters outside can't really hunt it enough they will still push all the elk on private.
Most likely on places like the wagonhound that would be the case but there are allot of smaller landowners that I think will take allot of hunters
 

Bookhead

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I would think there is also a fairly limited supply of folks that want to spend 16k to shoot an elk
 

DaveD

Active Member
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The private will still manage for quality they will just have to put less time and money into securing clients. Because LE hunters outside can't really hunt it enough they will still push all the elk on private.
I agree with you to a point. I guided in area 7 for several years. We never had problems getting clients but we did have problems getting clients to draw the tag. On many years we were way under the number of hunters that we could have hunted. On the worst years we had maybe 50% of capacity. That resulted in elk really taking refuge on the property we controlled. I personally believe this will have minimal impact on the largest of ranches but it would have a big, positive, impact on the medium to small properties by keeping elk moving, thus giving more public land hunters opportunities.
 

jims

Long Time Member
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I’d say general cow or limited private land only cow tags on private if the management objectives is to thin elk numbers.

Private land only cow tags would likely control elk numbers without impacting bulls?

Depending on unit goals the season dates for cow and bulls on and off private could be changed around to manage hunting pressure and elk movements. More cow hunters on private land will spook cows and bulls onto public.
 

jm77

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2,901
More cow hunters on private land will spook cows and bulls onto public.
True, but landowners that harbor elk don't do it because they like looking at them.

The G&F are trying to solve a LO problem by tweaking licenses. The only incentive for landowner to kill more elk is if they can profit from it and no one has the stomach for that.

As far as I'm concerned, this herd isn't over objective. The LO that want elk, have them. The ones that don't want them allow hunting.
 

Soccerdude

Active Member
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574
What if they added a type 9 tag. Then a type 1 tag that ran oct 1-oct 15th. Then a general any elk tag oct 15-nov 15th. Then general cow the rest of year.

I understand why outfitters want it general.... can G&F trade a certain number of bull tags for late season unlimited access for cows on that ranch? Or easements or walk in areas that open for cows. Would wagonhound ever become 100% walk in for cows starting Nov 15th if they were given 75 bull tags to give clients?

Just trying to toss ideas out there.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,349
What if they added a type 9 tag. Then a type 1 tag that ran oct 1-oct 15th. Then a general any elk tag oct 15-nov 15th. Then general cow the rest of year.

I understand why outfitters want it general.... can G&F trade a certain number of bull tags for late season unlimited access for cows on that ranch? Or easements or walk in areas that open for cows. Would wagonhound ever become 100% walk in for cows starting Nov 15th if they were given 75 bull tags to give clients?

Just trying to toss ideas out there.
I would oppose all of those...and with gusto.

For starters, general cow tags will make the problem worse. Already too many guys that don't know what they're doing that only push elk onto private...couldn't hunt their way out of an outhouse with a map and directions. That's a huge problem right now, there's just a lot of hunters that don't know how to go about getting elk killed without a medium-large sized shoot-out. Being surgical in how you kill elk, can keep them accessible. ONE clown can move elk off accessible areas for days and even weeks if they shoot the joint to pieces. See it all the time.

No reason for type 9's.

HARD no any outfitter set aside or allocation, I don't care how many cow elk they let the public on to hunt. I'm not in support of simply managing elk for a private landowner that profits off the bulls with set asides. Bad precedent there...horrific actually.

I do feel bad for the landowners that allow access and the harbored elk on their neighbors, that don't allow access, continue to damage those that allow access.

That should be worked out between the landowners.
 

jm77

Very Active Member
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2,901
What if they added a type 9 tag. Then a type 1 tag that ran oct 1-oct 15th. Then a general any elk tag oct 15-nov 15th. Then general cow the rest of year.

I understand why outfitters want it general.... can G&F trade a certain number of bull tags for late season unlimited access for cows on that ranch? Or easements or walk in areas that open for cows. Would wagonhound ever become 100% walk in for cows starting Nov 15th if they were given 75 bull tags to give clients?

Just trying to toss ideas out there.
Dude knock off the transferable tag B.S., you really disappoint me!
 

Soccerdude

Active Member
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574
I don't necessarily agree with any of my above ideas except I think a type 9 tag could have decent draw odds? Those are just ideas that popped in my head that could kill more elk....isn't that G&F want? In reality the main question is what would it take to get access better? That is the real question.

For what's its worth...i filled out the survey and said i oppose going general and didn't mention transferring tags on my survey. I did love the question "without mentioning access problems how can we improve unit 7 hunting?'
Dude knock off the transferable tag B.S., you really disappoint me!
 

jm77

Very Active Member
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2,901
I don't necessarily agree with any of my above ideas except I think a type 9 tag could have decent draw odds? Those are just ideas that popped in my head that could kill more elk....isn't that G&F want? In reality the main question is what would it take to get access better? That is the real question.
Right, type 9 tags kill what kind of elk? That would really help lower numbers... 🤷‍♂️
 

Cahunter805

Long Time Member
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3,264
Making a general tag in Unit 7 would IMO just increase the pressure on public lands, HMA and walk in areas and push the elk to private more. Yes some outfitters would get more clients and kill more elk but that would be minimal in relation to how many hunters would show up with a general tag.
 

Soccerdude

Active Member
Messages
574
Right, type 9 tags kill what kind of elk? That would really help lower numbers... 🤷‍♂️
How do you get better access to help kill more elk? That's the real question.

If they added a type 9 tag would the type 1 tag odds increase? This won't kill more elk but could increase odds of getting a tag. 🤷‍♂️
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,349
How do you get better access to help kill more elk? That's the real question.

If they added a type 9 tag would the type 1 tag odds increase? This won't kill more elk but could increase odds of getting a tag. 🤷‍♂️
More tags isn't going to do anything but push elk onto inaccessible private sooner in the season.

Plus, type 9 archery hunters suck at killing cows, all they shoot are bulls...killing bulls doesn't solve the problem of too many elk.

The goal is to decrease elk numbers, not get more people hunting bulls.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,349
You don't??? As in its not possible to get more access in 7?

or

E
What's the magical answer for G&F to get more elk killed in 7?
Getting smart hunters that have a clue how to get cow elk killed access.

Resting HMA's so the elk aren't pounded day after day.

Maybe staggering cow seasons and have 3-7 day stretches that its closed.

Not allowing unit 7 cow tags to be used on the refuge hunts.

For a few real easy ones.
 

Soccerdude

Active Member
Messages
574
More tags isn't going to do anything but push elk onto inaccessible private sooner in the season.

Plus, type 9 archery hunters suck at killing cows, all they shoot are bulls...killing bulls doesn't solve the problem of too many elk.

The goal is to decrease elk numbers, not get more people hunting bulls.
On the survey they asked how to increase hunters satisfaction in unit 7... one aspect of hunter satisfaction is getting the tag more then 25% of the time. Adding a type 9 could for certain hunters increase the level of satisfaction. They are using the general hunt aspect to get people excited about hunting it every year (again lots of reasons mentioned above why it won't work) and that i didn't like. The survey and info they provided make it sound general is the best thing in the world. I will try to open it again and screen shot the questions and info.
 

Soccerdude

Active Member
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574
This is the info before you start the survey.

Screenshot_20230124_222102_Chrome.jpg


Screenshot_20230124_222113_Chrome.jpg
 

jm77

Very Active Member
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2,901
On the survey they asked how to increase hunters satisfaction in unit 7... one aspect of hunter satisfaction is getting the tag more then 25% of the time. Adding a type 9 could for certain hunters increase the level of satisfaction. They are using the general hunt aspect to get people excited about hunting it every year (again lots of reasons mentioned above why it won't work) and that i didn't like. The survey and info they provided make it sound general is the best thing in the world. I will try to open it again and screen shot the questions and info.
I think most of us got the survey.
 

Bookhead

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1,359
Seems as though the game fish is at a stale mate with the big land owners in 7 and they are exploring every option but the reality of it is if they don't increase access one way or another they will not increase harvest. The wagonhound is over 300'000 a acres and a ton of the land they control is land locked public. If they want more elk killed its a simple solution they need to get them to work with the public to allow access on the property they don't use for their outfitting because there is no way they can use it all with the amount of paying clients they can take. There are other areas with better access that have large populations as well
 

Bookhead

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Also you don't see too many hunters from wheatland and Cheyenne and laramie on the west end of the unit and vice versa hunters from Casper and Glenrock on the east end too much and their all competing for the same tags
 
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Bookhead

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1,359
All splitting the area will do is fluctuate draw odds in reality but then they could adjust quotas based on that to displace pressure
 

rocky2track

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So how many antlerless elk are getting harvested out of those 1200 Type 4 and 2250 Type 6 tags? 3450 total tags. And seasons are open thru Dec. 31st. What is a general tag seaon going to do that these tag holders cannot already provide? Would increasing the amount of these tags to 5000 have any more effect on antlerless harvest?
 

Bookhead

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So how many antlerless elk are getting harvested out of those 1200 Type 4 and 2250 Type 6 tags? 3450 total tags. And seasons are open thru Dec. 31st. What is a general tag seaon going to do that these tag holders cannot already provide? Would increasing the amount of these tags to 5000 have any more effect on antlerless harvest?
No, not in my opinion
 

DaveD

Active Member
Messages
165
More tags will help, not more hunters.
Yea effective hunters with more tags will kill more elk but how many tags does a guy really need.
Have they ever offered a bonus cow tag in any areas? I have seen it done with deer in over populated areas. If every type 1 had a bonus cow tag, I'm guessing quite a few of those would get filled. It may also result in a few less bulls being shot as a guy with an elk in the freezer is typically a little more picky with the bull tag.
 

Bookhead

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Have they ever offered a bonus cow tag in any areas? I have seen it done with deer in over populated areas. If every type 1 had a bonus cow tag, I'm guessing quite a few of those would get filled. It may also result in a few less bulls being shot as a guy with an elk in the freezer is typically a little more picky with the bull tag.
If a guy really wanted to he could get 2 cow tags and a bull tag/any elk already
 
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DaveD

Active Member
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165
If a guy really wanted to he could get 2 cow tags and a bull tag/any elk already
For residents this would work but many guys I know prefer to apply for area 7 type 1 and additional cow tags closer to home because on most years they won't draw the 7 tag. For non-residents, it isn't an automatic draw anymore and it is quite a bit more money.

I realize there would be some revenue lost but they would lower hunting pressure by cutting the additional cow tags and just issuing a bonus tag to all type 1 tag holders. This accomplishes the more tags without additional hunters scenario.

If they want to keep the additional cow tags, make them late season only permits.

I think this strategy would help in area 6 as well.

Again, just throwing ideas out there. In the end it doesn't impact me as I have no plans to save points for 7 again.
 

Bookhead

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1,359
It is a good idea though most of the times I've archery hunted it I've had opportunities to kill a cow also if I had a tag attached to the type 1 I probably would of
 

wweaver79

Active Member
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499
Wagonhound is crazy $$$, If they would do a reasonable access/trespass fee it could done in a way not to impact their guided hunts if they set it up right. Other large property holders could do this also. Stay in XXXX area and provide a map or something. Lots of options on 300k acres. The cow tag as bonus add on to type 1 tag would work also. If the landowner really wanted less elk, they could have the hunter kill a cow first and then a bull.
 

jims

Long Time Member
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3,324
The hunters that kill cows and bulls are usually pretty good at it compared to those that just drive around spooking elk! I say, give those that check a harvest animal in an extra cow tag if they want!
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,349
The hunters that kill cows and bulls are usually pretty good at it compared to those that just drive around spooking elk! I say, give those that check a harvest animal in an extra cow tag if they want!
If they're good at it, then let them have 2 tags right from the start, why make them go buy another tag?

Plus, many NR's that come here don't have the time to be jacking around driving all over to buy tags.

You're a guy that could complicate a 1 car parade...
 

jims

Long Time Member
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3,324
Pretty simple facts, the same few guys shoot critters each and every year that they get tags and many of the others spin their wheels driving up and down roads in gators and trucks. It's pretty obvious that if tags were sold right from the start that you wouldn't weed out those that spend most of their time spooking elk rather than packing them out!

Have you ever agreed with anything I have ever said Buzz?
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,349
Pretty simple facts, the same few guys shoot critters each and every year that they get tags and many of the others spin their wheels driving up and down roads in gators and trucks. It's pretty obvious that if tags were sold right from the start that you wouldn't weed out those that spend most of their time spooking elk rather than packing them out!

Have you ever agreed with anything I have ever said Buzz?
Not much because your ideas and comments are mostly of the dumb variety.
 

DaveD

Active Member
Messages
165
Pretty simple facts, the same few guys shoot critters each and every year that they get tags and many of the others spin their wheels driving up and down roads in gators and trucks. It's pretty obvious that if tags were sold right from the start that you wouldn't weed out those that spend most of their time spooking elk rather than packing them out!

Have you ever agreed with anything I have ever said Buzz?
Those same guys will be spooking elk no matter what you do. May as well let the others harvest 2 instead of one when they get the chance before that happens.

Of course this is all with the harvest additional elk in mind if that is really the strategy. I still think general private tags could be a benefit but the additional cow tag added to the type 1 likely solves the problem the fastest.
 

jims

Long Time Member
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3,324
Colo did the bring a bagged deer in and get another deer tag years ago when CWD first showed it’s ugly face. They got a heck of a lot of deer shot but it didn’t work for preventing the spread of CWD.

Another thought is some sort of feed the needy program that benefits those in need with fresh wild game meat. Maybe a program like that would open the door to private landowners that otherwise is locked.
 
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jims

Long Time Member
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3,324
Right on Buzz, now you are talking! Expand Hunters for Hunger, Hunting for Hero’s, and other similar programs to gain access to locked up private land to harvest cow elk. Seems like a winner for everyone!

I wonder if Wagonhound, Q Ranch, and other large ranches would go for that type of program? How could they turn it down? I’m sure some of them already do this but it would be great if done on an even larger scale.
 

BuzzH

Long Time Member
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5,349
Right on Buzz, now you are talking! Expand Hunters for Hunger, Hunting for Hero’s, and other similar programs to gain access to locked up private land to harvest cow elk. Seems like a winner for everyone!

I wonder if Wagonhound, Q Ranch, and other large ranches would go for that type of program? How could they turn it down? I’m sure some of them already do this but it would be great if done on an even larger scale.
🤡
 

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