GS ELK

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
359
Their is a list of problems that is going on in this state but it is time to address our GS elk.

So 60 to 70% of our elk population is on LE units.

I truly feel like we are going down a dark road and all where doing here is beating a dead horse.
We have two problems here and we can fix one.

So here is some Actual data in 2021.

56,078 sportsman applied for a LE Elk

2,756 tags available for LE elk

8,750 new sportsman that applied this year for LE elk with 0 points.

This is a problem and it looks like to me it is a problem that can't be fixed at all

The LE elk units are taking over our state and has been for sometime now and it has finally caught up to our GS Elk hunt..

We have a few choices here.

#1 we go unlimited Elk tags and deal with the crowding

#2 Go unlimited tags and split up the Rifle hunt and make it a A&B season hunt to reduce crowding and Open up what was proposed last year to shut down 4 LE units and open them to GS any bull units. (These 4 units only allocated 102 tags for LE elk)

There is no reason that we are having to deal with this especially now! we don't have a problem growing elk in this state.

We need to stop Catering to the LE elk units it's already to far gone and can't be fixed points creep is going to be horrible in 10 years he!! imagine in 20 years.

By all means throw out some ideas it needs to be Addressed.

Mark my words the DWR reads these...
 
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Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,351
The thought of turning general season any bull elk into a draw system in Utah makes me want to puke, and I don't even hunt general season any bull elk. I've actually never even tried to buy an any bull general season permit.

I'm all for either of your above options. The DWR is simply trying to figure out a way to fix a non-existent issue and give itself a lot more money in the process. A solution (and giant increase in revenue) in search of a problem.

We already have limited entry for those that like to play in draws. Let those that just want to hunt and are okay with a 10-15% success rate go at it!
 

elktaker

Active Member
Messages
275
Get rid of multi season general tags. Go back to pick 1.

Personally I feel we need to go to a straight lottery/no points for limited hunts. Points don’t work once creep sets in. ID and NM knew what they were doing. I will start applying for limited elk next year in Utah. In 30 year, odds are i would be way behind top points holders - it’s a failing system.

A 16 year old kid now may be able to a premium tag when they are 45-50 years old and that’s optimistic that point holders now are dead.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
27,178
What Good is a Premium Tag Gonna Be in 45-50 Years?

Get rid of multi season general tags. Go back to pick 1.

Personally I feel we need to go to a straight lottery/no points for limited hunts. Points don’t work once creep sets in. ID and NM knew what they were doing. I will start applying for limited elk next year in Utah. In 30 year, odds are i would be way behind top points holders - it’s a failing system.

A 16 year old kid now may be able to a premium tag when they are 45-50 years old and that’s optimistic that point holders now are dead.
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
379
Why do away with multi season tags? It's not like they are going to offer up more tags per season. 17500 Any bull and 15000 spike only spread between 3 seasons.. I would love to see the success rates for all.

General tags are different than LE tags. Want to get rid of point creep? Make them OIL tags. See how many like that option.

The reason there are people out there with max points is because they choose to put in for hunts that require them.
 

mtnrunner260

Active Member
Messages
305
In 2025 once the GS "OTC" tags have been in the draw for a few years and it takes 2 plus points to draw. The discussion will be about combining GS and LE points points like they did for deer in 2023...
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
379
In 2025 once the GS "OTC" tags have been in the draw for a few years and it takes 2 plus points to draw. The discussion will be about combining GS and LE points points like they did for deer in 2023...
Never ceases to amaze me how many anti hunters there are in Utah. And on this forum.

Nobody in Utah is killing all the elk. Period.

Apparently there are a lot of people who want an opportunity to shoot a "non pisscutter". Otherwise they wouldn't be putting in for a LE tag.

Meanwhile they like to have a chance to learn about hunting elk. With a less than 10% chance at being successful it is the only way to experience any elk hunting.

Year after year people complain about others asking for help on units they are not familiar with. How do you propose they get familiar?
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
27,178
So shg?

You Don't Remember them Lowering Age Objectives in LE Elk Units Already?



Have cwmu's give 20% of their tags to the public. Give out twice as many LE permits. Who cares if the quality goes down, there will still be the opportunity to get a pretty good bull. Also, the less elk the better it is for the deer. Keep the general season over the counter.
 

schoolhousegrizz

Very Active Member
Messages
1,638
So shg?

You Don't Remember them Lowering Age Objectives in LE Elk Units Already?
I do remember. I think if we increased Elk LE permits are quality would be more like Wyoming, which is fine with me. Maybe not double the permits on some units but definitely increase the number. Also, move the rifle hunt out of the rut. Phase out of the point system over the next 5-10 years and then move to Nevada's system.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
359
My thoughts are this on LE Units

I understand it will take even longer to draw as a point holder but unfortunaly it has came to this

Keep the current point system and take 75% of the tags available and put them into the draw for point holders.

Then take the other 25% of the tags and throw them into a lotto.

when the point holder numbers get down to half (in the next 100 years)then 50 % goes to a lotto and 50% goes to point holders.

you have to make a choice on which one to apply for if you want points apply but if you have points and decide to apply in the lotto you will loose your points period.

by doing it this way high point holders still get to keep their points.

What do you think of this idea.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
359
So the 7 year elk plan is up next year and I truly think the only way to get accurate Data for this plan is to go Unlimited tags.

let's also do an A&B season rifle hunt next year to reduce crowding.

They will have a total number on tags sold and then they can run a survey to see if people liked the A&B season rifle hunt.

remember this will only be for one year.
 

schoolhousegrizz

Very Active Member
Messages
1,638
My thoughts are this on LE Units

I understand it will take even longer to draw as a point holder but unfortunaly it has came to this

Keep the current point system and take 75% of the tags available and put them into the draw for point holders.

Then take the other 25% of the tags and throw them into a lotto.

when the point holder numbers get down to half (in the next 100 years)then 50 % goes to a lotto and 50% goes to point holders.

you have to make a choice on which one to apply for if you want points apply but if you have points and decide to apply in the lotto you will loose your points period.

by doing it this way high point holders still get to keep their points.

What do you think of this idea.
Thanks for sharing your idea. My only concern is that after you go back to the 50/50 you end up in the same boat that you're in. I think you need to go completely random after you phase out of the points. I like Nevada's option because it's still random but the more points you get the more likely you are to draw.
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,351
They are not getting rid of the multi-season permit. Do the math.

7,000 multi-season permits sold, multiplied by $100 for the increase in the cost.

That's $700,000 a year in straight license revenue that the DWR would have to willingly give up. That ain't happening! Add on to that the Pittman-Robertson Act matching funds that come along with that, and you're talking into the millions every year they'd give up. That simply is not happening. In addition to the increased revenue they found with these multi-season permits, they have found a way to increase their revenue even more by putting it in a draw, and it's total crap. Just like middlefork said above, it never ceases to amaze me how much some "hunters" hate to actually hunt. And more specifically in many cases, how many of them enjoy hunting but hate YOU hunting as well.

Keep it out of the draw. Quit screwing with the system. Every single time they change the system they make it worse off than it was before with the "problem" they were trying to solve. Everyone that keeps asking for changes should remind themselves of that, and do it regularly.
 

Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,407
I do remember. I think if we increased Elk LE permits are quality would be more like Wyoming, which is fine with me. Maybe not double the permits on some units but definitely increase the number. Also, move the rifle hunt out of the rut. Phase out of the point system over the next 5-10 years and then move to Nevada's system.
If we juggle the dates more tags can be issued.
 

Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,407
They are not getting rid of the multi-season permit. Do the math.

7,000 multi-season permits sold, multiplied by $100 for the increase in the cost.

That's $700,000 a year in straight license revenue that the DWR would have to willingly give up. That ain't happening! Add on to that the Pittman-Robertson Act matching funds that come along with that, and you're talking into the millions every year they'd give up. That simply is not happening. In addition to the increased revenue they found with these multi-season permits, they have found a way to increase their revenue even more by putting it in a draw, and it's total crap. Just like middlefork said above, it never ceases to amaze me how much some "hunters" hate to actually hunt. And more specifically in many cases, how many of them enjoy hunting but hate YOU hunting as well.

Keep it out of the draw. Quit screwing with the system. Every single time they change the system they make it worse off than it was before with the "problem" they were trying to solve. Everyone that keeps asking for changes should remind themselves of that, and do it regularly.
I have no problem with the multi tag until I have to sit it out because I can't get it. Why should a person have 3 hunts and other none? They should of left it how it was, no draw.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,008
The multi season should have been set up like dedicated. 2 elk in 3 years, volunteer hours.

Having said that, here is the 9,999th post discussing points/LE.

IMAGINE IF THERE WERENT POINTS.

Third. CWMU tags selling should end prior to draw deadline. You can take your chance LE, or buy a CWMU. But not be able to use CWMU as a fallback or buy around. That will take dudes out of the draws.


Last.PUT THE DAMN TAGS BACK IN THE STORES
 

Easy_green

Active Member
Messages
137
This really is a controversial topic without any single right answer. I personally like the way Arizona manages and conducts their draw for elk. Utah could take some of the positive things Arizona has been doing and apply it. Just my two cents.
 

Elkslayer2015

Active Member
Messages
359
The multi season should have been set up like dedicated. 2 elk in 3 years, volunteer hours.
hossblur To answer this question They have hard enough time finding projects for the Deer dedicated hunters. we couldn't have another one...
Also I don't know how that would work harvesting an elk 2 out of 3 years it might be a good thing or it might get over populated with males but I don't think this would happen because the success rate is still below 20% or close too it
Having said that, here is the 9,999th post discussing points/LE.
dang it i was hoping for 10,000 You are correct and that is the problem right here nobody wants to fix anything.

The reason for it getting brought up so much is the LE system broken yes! there is so many more ways to add tags to a unit.
this is going to get a hell of a lot worse for LE with 8,750 new applicants with 0 points and only 2,750 tags available there is no end in sight... now the over flow is now reflecting back on the GS elk any bull we can fix one thing here and it sure the hell isn't the LE side....


The multi season needs to stay I don't care either way but Vanilla is right the revenue is way high and it's here to stay.
 

MuleyKiller

Member
Messages
83
I've said it for years, They need to do away with all the different units/hunts for deer and Elk. ( Limited entry, general any bull , general spike ). Simply just make every unit a Deer or elk unit. No LE/General, and forget all the different points we can accumulate. So in the future the only points you could obtain would be Deer, Elk or OIL. This would let all the whiners keep there points and hopefully simplify the system for management and hunter alike. Utah's system gets more complicated every season with all of the changes that they make. Most of the time less is more. I try to get on and listen to the rac meetings, it is astonishing to me the wacked out ideas that come from some of the groups represented there. Most of the time logic and common sense are thrown out the window. And even if there is a good idea that is voted on , or recommended the WB doesn't listen and they do what ever they want any way. I'm not sure what good the RACS even do. The system is not going to keep working in its current format. All LE hunts are now pretty much like a OIL. My children and grand children will probably never be able to draw a tag in the current system. Utah answer is to just keep adding hunts and dates to an already overloaded system. Drastic changes need to take place that won't be in favor of all people but the changes have to be made to preserve what we all love to do!
 

middlefork

Active Member
Messages
379
With the success rates of general elk running about 10% I'm not sure there is any reason to make multi seasons tags into a DH type tag. Unless somebody has data showing they are killing elk in the 30% range. But then again I do DH deer and don't kill anything with it.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
27,178
So Move The Rifle Hunt Out of the Rut?

The StickFlippers Hit The Start of the Rut!

The Last Few Years The SmokePolers Have hit The Tail End of The Rut!

80-100 Yard StickFlippers!

300-500 Yard SmokePolers!

1,000+ Yard Long Rangers!

Where is the Happy Medium Here?



I do remember. I think if we increased Elk LE permits are quality would be more like Wyoming, which is fine with me. Maybe not double the permits on some units but definitely increase the number. Also, move the rifle hunt out of the rut. Phase out of the point system over the next 5-10 years and then move to Nevada's system.
 

schoolhousegrizz

Very Active Member
Messages
1,638
So Move The Rifle Hunt Out of the Rut?

The StickFlippers Hit The Start of the Rut!

The Last Few Years The SmokePolers Have hit The Tail End of The Rut!

80-100 Yard StickFlippers!

300-500 Yard SmokePolers!

1,000+ Yard Long Rangers!

Where is the Happy Medium Here?
Well we would have to implement some of your hell yeah plan. No scopes on muzzys, no trail cams etc. I would rather protect our deer herd and hunt elk more aggressively. Improve our general deer hunt quality. Get the buck to doe ratio up to 28 bucks to does to get a few older age class bucks. The elk are much more resilient. Some how increase hunting opportunity on private land, especially for elk.
 

schoolhousegrizz

Very Active Member
Messages
1,638
28 Bucks Per 100 Does?

You're Way Above The PISS POOR MANAGEMENT We Have Going Now!

Ya!

If You Can Add Something to HELL-RIGHT,do it!
I really think we need to implement hell yeah!!! No doubt it would fix things in a hurry! Our buck to doe ratio of 15-20 bucks has got to be the lowest in the entire west!! Come on Utah!
 

Vanilla

Very Active Member
Messages
2,351
Way off topic from the general elk hunts, but I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: if you want the deer herds to improve you’ve got to quit managing hunters and start managing deer. If hunters become the limiting factor for our deer, then you manage hunters, but we are a LONG ways from that being the case, so keep managing hunters and scratching your head about why it isn’t helping.

Keep general elk permits OTC. The wildlife board needs to do the right thing, for once!
 

257Tony

Long Time Member
Messages
3,874
This problem is only going to get worse in the future, no matter what measures you implement. The population is growing much too fast. Do away with points would be great for those that don't have them, but a huge slap in the face for guys that have been waiting 20 years. If you go to a no point system, many people will never draw a LE Elk tag in their lifetime.

You would have to make LE Deer, and LE Elk both OIL to make any type of dent. Even then, odds will still get worse each year as evidences by the numbers of tags vs new hunters.

To me, there is no correct answer, unfortunately.
 

gundog2

Active Member
Messages
148
This problem is only going to get worse in the future, no matter what measures you implement. The population is growing much too fast. Do away with points would be great for those that don't have them, but a huge slap in the face for guys that have been waiting 20 years. If you go to a no point system, many people will never draw a LE Elk tag in their lifetime.

You would have to make LE Deer, and LE Elk both OIL to make any type of dent. Even then, odds will still get worse each year as evidences by the numbers of tags vs new hunters.

To me, there is no correct answer, unfortunately.
Agree that there is no correct answer, but I really think that a big part of the problem is that Utah attempts to offer “general season” opportunity hunts and LE hunts, separately. It is impossible for Utah to give everyone an opportunity to hunt deer and elk every year and also offer high quality limited entry hunts without a ridiculous amount of point creep. The system is designed in favor of point creep. If they would combine all deer tags into one draw, it would force people to make choice of opportunity hunt or wait your turn for a better quality hunt. Same thing for elk. If they also restricted hunters to apply for deer or elk, but not both in same year, then you might start to get a handle on the point creep. You could even go a step further with OIL hunts. There are ways to address point creep, but it requires some hard choices.
 

schoolhousegrizz

Very Active Member
Messages
1,638
Agree that there is no correct answer, but I really think that a big part of the problem is that Utah attempts to offer “general season” opportunity hunts and LE hunts, separately. It is impossible for Utah to give everyone an opportunity to hunt deer and elk every year and also offer high quality limited entry hunts without a ridiculous amount of point creep. The system is designed in favor of point creep. If they would combine all deer tags into one draw, it would force people to make choice of opportunity hunt or wait your turn for a better quality hunt. Same thing for elk. If they also restricted hunters to apply for deer or elk, but not both in same year, then you might start to get a handle on the point creep. You could even go a step further with OIL hunts. There are ways to address point creep, but it requires some hard choices.
I agree. I do wish they would up the buck to doe ratio slightly on the generals and possibly lower it just a touch on the LE's. Make them a little closer in quality before you put them all in one pool. Just my opinion.
 

gundog2

Active Member
Messages
148
No I would prefer a tag every year no matter cost. 😀
I prefer that everyone should get a tag every year as long as they are giving tags to lifetime license holders ever year. I was just making point, earlier in this thread, that this is one of the big reasons why we will always have a ridiculous amount of point creep on the LE units.
 

ElkMagic

New Member
Messages
4
Agree that there is no correct answer, but I really think that a big part of the problem is that Utah attempts to offer “general season” opportunity hunts and LE hunts, separately. It is impossible for Utah to give everyone an opportunity to hunt deer and elk every year and also offer high quality limited entry hunts without a ridiculous amount of point creep. The system is designed in favor of point creep. If they would combine all deer tags into one draw, it would force people to make choice of opportunity hunt or wait your turn for a better quality hunt. Same thing for elk. If they also restricted hunters to apply for deer or elk, but not both in same year, then you might start to get a handle on the point creep. You could even go a step further with OIL hunts. There are ways to address point creep, but it requires some hard choices.
They also can combine antlerless and antlers and force people to choose between cow tag and bull tag or doe and buck tag.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,689
Elkslayer2015 said-
"hossblur To answer this question They have hard enough time finding projects for the Deer dedicated hunters. we couldn't have another one..."

I disagree with this 👎
The MDF offers DH plenty of opportunities for hours through our numerous projects throughout the year.
We have poor showing by DH's until crunch time and then we can't accommodate them all.

We just did a two weekend project in Utah County and TWO DH's showed up.....2!

The problem isn't lack of projects, it's lack of interest.

We can do MUCH better in this area....
 

JakeH

Very Active Member
Messages
2,807
Elkslayer2015 said-
"hossblur To answer this question They have hard enough time finding projects for the Deer dedicated hunters. we couldn't have another one..."

I disagree with this 👎
The MDF offers DH plenty of opportunities for hours through our numerous projects throughout the year.
We have poor showing by DH's until crunch time and then we can't accommodate them all.

We just did a two weekend project in Utah County and TWO DH's showed up.....2!

The problem isn't lack of projects, it's lack of interest.

We can do MUCH better in this area....


I'm in my 3rd set of DH years and have never once seen a project in my area about working with MDF on a project.

Wait, maybe once last year with something to do with a guzzler or something. But even then they only needed a couple guys. It was my year to sit out last year so I didn't do it.

I usually have my hours worked out pretty early so I'm not always looking either, but you would think in the last 8 years I should be able to think of more than 1 instance that was local to the NE portion of the state.
 

JakeH

Very Active Member
Messages
2,807
This is all they have right now for the North East region. And one project is from last year, 2020.

20211127_192546.jpg
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,689
I'm in my 3rd set of DH years and have never once seen a project in my area about working with MDF on a project.

Wait, maybe once last year with something to do with a guzzler or something. But even then they only needed a couple guys. It was my year to sit out last year so I didn't do it.

I usually have my hours worked out pretty early so I'm not always looking either, but you would think in the last 8 years I should be able to think of more than 1 instance that was local to the NE portion of the state.
Do you follow any of the MDF social media pages?
They always post projects dates and locations.
Of course Covid has caused a few bumps, just as it has everything else, especially last year, but we are getting back to normal paces.

I have posted projects in the Utah forum but got very low feedback, so I gave up on MM and just posted on social media.

instagram-
muledeerfoundation_utah
 
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JakeH

Very Active Member
Messages
2,807
Do you follow any of the MDF social media pages?
They always post projects dates and locations.
Of course Covid has caused a few bumps, just as it has everything else, especially last year, but we are getting back to normal paces.

I have posted projects in the Utah forum but got very low feedback, so I gave up on MM and just posted on social media.
Yep, I follow the Uintah Basin Chapter. Maybe ours isn't as active as yours is.

All I'm saying is it's not always easy getting those hours. And projects can be hard to find. I busted out 22 hours this year doing fishing surveys at a local lake over 4 weekends at 5-6 hours per day. Not fun, but easy enough to get some hours in, and I didn't want to wait for a better project. And there wasn't anything on the list to wait for anyway.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,689
Yep, I follow the Uintah Basin Chapter. Maybe ours isn't as active as yours is.

All I'm saying is it's not always easy getting those hours. And projects can be hard to find. I busted out 22 hours this year doing fishing surveys at a local lake over 4 weekends at 5-6 hours per day. Not fun, but easy enough to get some hours in, and I didn't want to wait for a better project. And there wasn't anything on the list to wait for anyway.

I am good friends with Heidi there in Vernal, I'll message her right now and get back with you on a project forecast.
 

JakeH

Very Active Member
Messages
2,807
I am good friends with Heidi there in Vernal, I'll message her right now and get back with you on a project forecast.
I am as well, known her my whole life quite literally since we were little kids. She was the one in charge the one time I seen a project come up. She's only been in there for about a year so hopefully there will be some more stuff coming up. I need 10 more hours to finish this 3 year set off. But for the right projects I wouldn't need the incentive of DH hours to help.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,689
I am as well, known her my whole life quite literally since we were little kids. She was the one in charge the one time I seen a project come up. She's only been in there for about a year so hopefully there will be some more stuff coming up. I need 10 more hours to finish this 3 year set off. But for the right projects I wouldn't need the incentive of DH hours to help.
I just spoke with Jeremy Anderson and we are done with projects until spring.
I will keep you posted.
Watch my Facebook page, I always post there.
 

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