Hey... glen

[ramshorn]

glen,

I never said you were the one who started lobbing the "hunt in your own damn state" line... but you didn't denounce that line either. And I didn't say you were the one leading the witch hunt against Randy Bryant and his family, but I haven't seen you denouncing that program either.

My problem is with the attitude that because some hunters lives in a certain state, like AZ, that that entitles that group to EXTREME privileges regarding the use of the federal lands in their state, against all other hunters in the USA. EXTREME as in demanding an allocation of 90%+ of all permits. And yes, hunting animals on federal land is a use of that land. And yes... 90%+ is EXTREME.

The argument's been made that state residents need a preference to sustain hunter numbers and commitment in their states. As I've said, I'll buy that argument... but not to the degree of 90%+. And I'll buy that argument regarding deer, and perhaps elk, but no one's been able to demonstrate that a 90%+ preference on bighorn tags is required to maintain hunter commitment. No one needs a 90%+ preference on bighorns to introduce their kids to hunting. Demanding a 90%+ preference on bighorns is nothing more than demanding a privilege that you'd deny to others... just because you can.

In one of your posts, you said that you were willing to "welcome" certain non-res to Arizona. Well, its nice that you would welcome someone into your house, or onto your personal property, but I don't really need someone welcoming me onto land that I, and every other hunter in the United States of America, own just as much as you.

And by the way... calling me names doesn't make you a bigger man. See ya around.

ramshorn

 

[gleninaz]

Zim-You need to get out of your Indiana"I own the world" mode and review what the real discussion is out here. I have heard very few hunters here say they wanted to screw the non-res hunter. 95% of the anger is toward Taulman and is justified. He did us a favor in the long run as Reids bill will pass and therefore the tag allocation issue will once again be controlled by the states and we as hunters will be much more aware about defending our turf. We will decide how many NR hunters come in and at what cost. You can whine about federal lands but the animal stewardship was already decided and will be confirmed by Reid's bill.

My bigger concern is that NR licenses have increased dramatically and our residents have given up and are declining. We are not doing a good job of getting kids in the field. As far as sheep and trophy elk tags go I don' think kids should even be allowed to apply as their dad will just get all over that tag and a trophy animal would ruin a kid for life. They need to start by appreciating doe and cow hunting first.

As far as name calling goes you are a whiney little girly fudge packer IMO. How was yer buf hunt?

 

[NVBighorn]

Jeezuz H Fricken Kryst, I go sheep hunting for a week and look at all the strife and arguing I come back to!

I will gladly assume responsibility for the "?hunt in your own damn state? line...? But obviously when I threw it out I didn't make my point clear. What I said was I remembered seeing a bumper sticker that said ?Hunt in your own damm state? and I didn't understand what caused that person to feel that way but that now I was beginning to UNDERSTAND THE FEELING. Not that I was endorsing that feeling but that I was UNDERSTANDING WHERE IT CAME FROM! I don't, let me emphasize this, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE HUNT IN YOUR OWN DAMM STATE PHILOSOPHY! But after having people from other states suddenly tell me I should have no preference over a nonresident in the state I have lived in my entire life it's easy to see where the old timers may have felt that way.

I apply and would like to hunt in other states and I invite you, ramshorn and whoever else, to do the same. But when I do I will apply and hunt there under the rules set by the residents of that state. And I won't whine and b!tch when some first, fourth or fifth generation resident gets a preference over me.

This lame-ass argument about how you all co-own the federal land in the west just doesn't wash with me. The only reason the feds ?own? the land out west is because it wasn?t part of the great land grab of the 16, 17 or 18 hundreds in states like Texas or the east. The feds figured out before the west was settled that controlling the land meant controlling the people. Just because you choose to live in a state where the wealthy or influential or industrious were allowed to lay claim to large tracts of land way back when, but you may have missed out on that land grab, don't come around here telling me you own my state. This USO thing has nothing to do with who owns the land. Keep in mind that if you, as a nonresident, are allowed the same privileges as a resident of a western state so is a person from another country who is not even a citizen of the USA. So don't tell me this is because of federal ownership. I don't see Canada or any other country with game opening their land up to me to come hunt like a citizen. Why should Nevada or Arizona open it up to them the same as their residents? But this lawsuit makes no distinction between US citizens and US aliens. That's because this lawsuit is about money. Period.

And as for your statement ?but no one's been able to demonstrate that a 90%+ preference on bighorn tags is required to maintain hunter commitment. No one needs a 90%+ preference on bighorns to introduce their kids to hunting. Demanding a 90%+ preference on bighorns is nothing more than demanding a privilege that you'd deny to others... just because you can.? No I don't need that preference to introduce my kids to hunting. However, reality is that the local, in-state, grass roots organizations, are the ones that are really responsible for the huntable sheep populations out there. You can, and no doubt will, argue that GSC, FNAWS etc are contributing lots of money to the sheep programs in the west. And it is true, they do and it helps a great deal. However, if it weren't for the commitment of the residents of the individual states and provinces to plan and build the water developments, monitor the herds and, most importantly, fight the political battles, your money donated to organizations with paid staff (unlike most grass roots organizations) wouldn't put one sheep on the mountain. Do I need to name the organizations off? I can name a few. Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, Nevada Bighorns Unlimited, Fraternity of the Desert Bighorn, Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society, Wild Sheep Society of British Columbia, not to mention the local and state FNAWS chapters and affiliates. I know there are others and I did not intentionally leave anyone out. Those are the people you (and I) need to thank. Don?t pat yourself on the back and say I gave my money to a large national organization and I am a US citizen therefore I deserve the same chances at a sheep tag as the poor bastages out there doing the work and putting in the time. And don't tell me that the guy from Germany or fricken Iraq deserves the same chances as me. But that's what you have now as this court decision stands. Tell me, do I have the same chance of hunting desert sheep in your state as an AVERAGE RESIDENT does? If I do it's because they have next to no chance at all. I am 100% positive that some of the hard working locals that I say we need to thank will no linger be interested in furthering the cause for sheep in the west if this lawsuit stands and they, and their family and friends, have no better chance of drawing a sheep tag than a nonresident or a US alien. I am 100% sure because I know a few of them very personally.

No one has demonstrated to me how this USO conflict is good for hunting in any way and I challenge you to do so. It has hunter pitted against hunter. The only answer the states have come up with is to jack the cost of hunting higher and higher. It is furthering the commercialization of big game hunting and taking more control away from the people who live within arms reach of the resource and placing it the wrong hands (feds). I've said it many times so once more won't hurt. George Taulman doesn't give a rats a$$ about you as a nonresident unless you apply and hunt using his service. I guarantee that if he were out of business his fight for the nonresident's ?rights? would cease immediately.

 

[cpsandman]

AMEN NVbighorn!! Like you I keep saying this has nothing to do with RES vs NONRES but people only hear what they want to hear....it's about $$$$$$$$$$$ and nothing else. USO would love for us raise RES & NORES hunting tags, then only their wealthy clients could afford to hunt. It's all about buisness and USO wants as much as they can have. Wake up, sniff your money, and kiss it goodbye because if things coninue to roll down this path we won't be able to afford to hunt anywhere anymore.

CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"

 

[RLH]

so is ram-it-horn, ol' zim? i didn't know that. you always went by that handle? i remember a year or so, you were whining about Az. rules and you got a u1 elk tag and were still complaining. seems like ya shot a 6x6 too. wasn't a very big one, but it was ok. and you're still whinin'? hell, you oughta be tap dancin' happy. my ol' man, who is real old, like octegenarian range, finally got his 3rd damn Az. elk tag in '04. 3 tags. his great grandad wandered into this state before the civil war. and in all his years of applying, he's had 3 elk permits in Az. it was 18 years since his last one. 18 years. he went from bein' a senior citizen to a crippled up ol' geezer between Az. elk permits. went from being able to hike wherever he wanted to, to having to use a cane to hobble a hundred yards or so. and he was born and raised and lived here his whole life, except when he was fightin' nazis. every dime he ever made, he spent right here in this state. he employed a lotta other folks that spend all their money here too. he started out with some mesquite patches and turned em into a cotton farm. he's been a pretty damn good neighbor and resident of this state. and he'll probably never see another Az. elk permit. and you say you have as much right to em as he does? seems sorta panty wasted, spoiled brat whiny, to me. worst thing ever happened to this country was building a bridge across the mississippi. now folks that ain't willing to work at it can come here all they want. whiners like you. line up on uso's side o' the fence dude. cry to somebody that wants to hear it. like maybe your mommy. oh yeah, my decrepit ol' man, he shot a lot bigger than elk than you, too. be happy with your dink and stay in indianner. leave these Az. bulls for the folks that are man enough to hunt em and man enough to accept that there are only so many permits.