Home Mortgages. . .

T

TFinalshot

Guest
Mortgageman, What's the catch with biweekely advantage plan for my mortgage? I keep getting mailers trying to get me to switch to biweekely payments thus lowering my overall debt and getting my house paid off about 8 years sooner.

I understand the math, but who makes money on this deal, and why are they pushing so hard to get me to switch? The bank makes less money if I pay it off early.

What am I missing?

BTW, I'm with Citimortgage. . .



"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
I get the same offers, I need the whole month though to steal from peter to pay paul :) Maybe in the future I might look into it though.
 
Yea, fortunately I can do it every two weeks, but what I cant figure out is who stands to gain on a deal like this. The owner of the debt, citibank in this case, stands to lose thousands if I pay it off early.

So, who's making money on this kind of deal and what's the catch?
 
My bank is countrywide and they even offer a weekly payment optiion. I'm with you though, where's the catch?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-08 AT 06:48PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-08 AT 03:37?PM (MST)

You save interest on the loan by the payment being posted every two weeks instead of once a month. Interest accrues on a lower balance after making the payment to simplify it a bit. When you calculate out the finance charges you save quite a bit in the long run. Now here's the downside to the equation you have more payments to make and most people don't want to make two payments a month on their mortgage.

If you only prefer to make one monthly payment enclose a second check marked principle only along with your monthly check and your mortgage will pay off sooner and you will accomplish the same thing but because of the longer duration between payments you will most likely pay more interest over the life of the loan. In todays world very few mortgages actually go longer than 5-10 years before refinancing. But if any of you actually are thinking about refinancing the rates are pretty good to get out of a varible rate mortgage at this time and get into a fixed rate mortgage if you're planning on staying in your property.

The institution making the loan stands to make fees associated with the refinance of your loan and those fees go right to the bottom line immediately! Most people finance the costs so the bank actually increases its outstandings to the borrower and when you add that to the fees involved it actually can increase the banks revenue considerably (Short term) as opposed to the normal interest accrual. Then if they investor sells the loan or servicing there is another opportunity to make revenue on the loan in the secondary market.
 
Bottom line, if it's good for the bank it's probably not good for you. Don't do it. Take a bunch of envelopes, put stamps on them, address them to the mortgage company and send off checks as often as you can. Send them twice a month, or three times or whatever you can afford. Sending 2 payments a month knocks your mortgage to a 15 year from a 30 year. And keep good records.

It's a fee generator for the mortgage company. Don't bite.

http://chippewapartners.blogspot.com
 
Send a payment every two weeks = 26 payments per year.

Send 1 payment per month = 12 payments per year

This = 2 extra payments you will make on a bi-monthly loan every year.

Don't pay the normal $395 fee to set this up, just send an extra payment each year and cut your 30yr loan to a 23yr in interest savings.

muleyman
 
Boskee good thread, more paragraphs...I'm dizzy

Unless you are at the top of the tax bracket and your mortgage is less than 5% of your outflow. If not, stay away!

A 30-year mortgage gives you the convenience of a monthly payment. Should you wish to pay more interest or principal, shorten your note, and hegde your mortgage interest rate you can.

Check with your tax-person with your mortgage in hand first, principal payments have limits and are not tax-deductible.

Very mind-catching site ChippewaPartners...I enjoyed the visit.

T...tell them thanks, but no thanks it's cool. Get a tax guy and go over your current mortgage since there are different structures with different mortgages.

If you want to shave down the length of the loan, discount your current interest rate, and avoid fees, a good tax guy can steer you better than a banker for about $150.00.
 
T-final - Sorry, been pretty crazy with rates tanking this week. Most of the reasons are the reasons mentioned above. Extra 2 payments a year. More principle paid down the on the mortgage because interest is being paid down sooner. The mortgage company does make money of your payments but they also want you to pay down that mortgage as soon as possible.

That way if you default on your home their loan to value is better as well in case they have to foreclose and sell it. The average person keeps their mortgage for four years. I wouldn't waste my time with a tax guy trying to get somewhere on my mortgage. Anyone can work a amortization schedule and see where and when to pay on your mortgage to pay it off early. If you don't have one, I have an easy excel format amortization schedule that you can put your payments into and see how fast the principle is paid down and you can also do "what if" scenarios as well.

Like FTW mentioned, there are restrictions with many lenders on how much principle you can pay down in one year on your mortgage. Most of the time it's 20% of the loan balance. I don't know about you, but I would have to hit the lottery to do that.

I know everyone hates that mortgage payment but keep in mind it is a great tax deduction too. Plus there is alot of things you can do with the cash out of your home to make a lot more money than paying down your home. There is a great saying that we live by. There are those that understand interest and then there are those that pay it.

But if you want to pay that home off fast. We have developed some pretty cool techniques to maximizing your principle payment so you can pay your home off faster. This is one program that we are testing right now. Take a look at a report on youtube about it
. You have to been very strict on how you spend your money in order for it to work.

Now I have rambled on for no reason. I hope this helped somewhat. I kind of got off on a tangent there, sorry.
 
So, is there a better time to start the double payment plan? Like after the first five years of paying. Like you said the interest is deductable so is there a point at which it makes more sense to pay it down faster?

I still dont understand where citbank is making money on my paying my mortgage off early. Sure, they reduce risk, and they get "new" or free up capital to use else where, but is that seems too little for them to spend the millions they must be spending on trying to get people to singe up for the double payment plan. . .

I think I'll just do as suggested, if I want to pay more, just send in an extra check to principal every two weeks. . .

Thank you all for the thoughts and the ideas.
 
There really isn't a better time to start doing it. Home loans are front end loaded with interest so probably the sooner the better. I can't understand why they are pushing for people to start bi-weekly payments. One of the only things I can think of is those that pay bi-weekly payments are more concerned about their mortgage and usually more finance savy.

This might make their company appeal more to investors because they will have more people on bi-weekly loans. I can't say whether this is true or not, it's just speculation. From everything that I have heard I don't see how they can make more money from the bi-weekly payment programs.

I will ask my Citibank rep and see if he has some more insight as to why they are pushing it so hard and if they are making money of it somehow.

I would do as you said above. If you want to make an extra payment here or there just do that. I don't sell 15 year mortgages very often. Mainly because anyone can amortize their loan and make a payment on it that will pay their loan off in 15 years. But if hard times fall on you, you aren't obligated to pay that big payment.

Make sure that you mark any payment you want to go to principle very well on the check. Otherwise they will apply it towards next months payment or in some cases just let that money accrue and do nothing with it while waiting for you to tell them how to handle it.
 
Thanks for the great help, let us know if you lean anything from citibank, I really am interested in why or how they are making money. . .
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-08 AT 02:48PM (MST)[p]I thought I'd offer a few insights, since I've been in the mortgage industry for the last 15 years.

Investors (i.e. Citibank, BofA, Chase, WaMu, Countrywide, etc.) don't benefit directly by you making a bi-weekly payment, or making annual or occasional payments to reduce your principal. They do, however, all support you in allowing this practice. While they don't benefit financially, it is in their best interest to see you build more equity, as it strengthens their loan servicing portfolio. Investors have to re-amortize your mortgage when you make an accelerated principal reduction, and if you can afford to do so, it is a good idea to do it early in the life of your mortgage, IF, you plan to stay in your home long term. If you expect to move or replace your current mortgage within the next five years or so, you are most probably going to benefit more by using any extra funds to eliminate other debt. If you do decide to accelerate your principal reductions, you'll get the most bang for your buck by doing it in the first few years of your loan term.

Over the last five or six years, one of the most popular mortgages has been the "negative amortization" mortgage. This type of loan had a very bad reputation back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, as many people with those loans made minimum payments that were allowed as one of your four payments options, and this would result in adding the earned but unpaid interest to your principal balance. To make that mortgage product viable to sell again, most lenders gave them sexy names this time, like "pay option ARM, freedom loan, pick-a-pay loans, and so on. Regardless of the name and marketing gimick, these are all neg-am arms. This type of loan was involved in the S&L crisis back in the early '90s and is again a major component of the current mortgage industry mess.

There is/was a simple reason so many of these loans were sold across the country. Investors would pay correspondents and brokers (that is, guys like me and mortgageman) higher rebates to fund these loans. Even worse, if your lender would attach a prepayment penalty period to your loan, he got paid more money -- A LOT MORE MONEY. There is a borrower type for whom this is a good mortgage product, but that borrower represents probably less than 10% of all borrowers out there, most likely a lot less than 10%. Most people who have neg-am arms would have been much better off gettting a 30-year fixed rate mortage instead, but weren't properly counseled by greedy loan officers who couldn't make as much on your loan if you took out a 30-fixed. I refused to provide neg-am loans to almost any client, and lost of a lot of business to other lenders who were too willing to give borrowers these loans, but at least now I can sleep good at night, secure in the knowledge that I've never contributed to any client losing a home due to bad business practices on my part.

If you've been watching the business or financial news at all, you know that Countrywide is in gigantic trouble financially and is being acquired by BofA. What you haven't heard until now is that for much of the last four or five years, Countrywide was the single largest investor in neg-am mortages in the country. A few years ago, it comprised something like 35-40% of their entire funding volume for the year. That is billions of dollars in loans. AND, now they're in deep trouble. This problem isn't just SUBPRIME loans, but also very much neg-ams, AND IT IS GOING TO GET WORSE BEFORE IT GETS BETTER.

I could go on for a very long time, but everyone will fall asleep if I do.

I will just close with this offer, and I'm sure that Mortgageman will do the same, if anyone who reads Monster Muleys needs any advice about your mortgage, I'll be glad to consult privately with you, at absolutely no cost, obligation or expectation of anything at all, other than saying thank you when we're done. If you're in great shape, we'll be happy to tell you, if you might benefit by considering improving your situation, we'll counsel you on that and if you're having problems with your current loan and don't know how to manage your way through the problem, we'll advise you on how to best proceed to protect yourself and work through it. If anyone on here needs advise, you have at least two new sources you can turn to, confidentially. Just private message either of us.

What do you say, Mortgageman? I'm sure you'll second this advice/offer.
 
CAelknuts - Good info on the Pay-Option Arm. I have never done one mainly because I don't like them (possible neg am, monthly adjustable rate, etc). Some people love them and that's all they do. I've seen too many people end up in bad situations because of the terrible advice and loans they have been given.

I would agree with what you have said above. I would be more than happy to offer advice to any member on Monster Muleys. I have have already helped several people on here with their mortgage needs including refinances, purchases or just offering them good advice on their current situation. As always everything is completely 100% confidential.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-08 AT 11:39AM (MST)[p]Thanks Mortgageman, I was sure you'd agree about helping fellow MM members.

Rates are now getting very low, just about as low as I've seen in the 15 years I've been making home loans. With those low rates, everyone is going to be subjected to a lot of advertising on the radio, TV, mail and even phone calls to your home. All I can say is BORROWER BEWARE!!!

Some of the come-ons that you'll hear or read about will include "Fixed" rate mortgages with rates that end in .95, .99 or some such non-standard fraction of a percent. Almost all of these loans will be some form of adjustable rate loan, even if your lender tells you you're getting a fixed rate mortgage. Typically, loans, regardless of whether they are conforming or Jumbo (conforming loans are any first mortgage up to $417,000.00 and Jumbos are everything above that)will end in 1/8th of a percent increments. Your interest rate will end with one of the following fractions of a percent .00, .125, .25, .375, .50, .625, .75 or .875. If it ends in anything else, it is most likely a portfolio adjustable rate mortgage. While adjustable rate loans are not inherently bad, and can be better than fixed rate loans in certain situations, many lenders mislead their borrowers when selling them on a certain loan product. This is usually becuase your loan officer is trying to make a bit more money for himself and his company, not because it is better for you. Also, there is nothing inherently bad about "Portfolio" loans, that term refers to lenders who keep their mortgages and don't sell them on the secondary market. BUT, you should be aware that there is usually a reason those loans aren't sold on the secondary market, and it is often that the terms don't conform to requirements that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac set forth for loans eligible to be sold to those institutions. This often is because the portfolio lender includes a prepayment penalty clause in their terms. You DO NOT need to have a prepay clause in your loan, for more than 95% of instances.

You should also ensure that you're truly getting a fixed rate mortgage if that is what you want. In many instances, lenders are allowed to represent a loan as a "fixed" rate as long of the initial interest rate is fixed for a period of at least five years. It can be a 5/1,7/1 or 10/1 Intermediate Term ARM loan (the 5, 7 or 10 simply refer to the number of years that the rate is fixed before it begins adjusting) and still be legally called a Fixed Rate Mortgage by your lender, even though it isn't really such and is unethical in my opinion.

I have another point to make, but want to post it seperately as I think it is too important to get lost in the length of this message.
 
OK, my other point. This might be one of the most important things to keep in mind when talking to anyone in the mortgage business about your home financing if you are obtaining a new loan for a purchase, refinance or debt consolidation.

Interest rates are currently at just about the lowest point they've been during the home owning years of almost anyone who visits this website. I don't care if you're 20, 40, 60 or 80, rates have almost never been lower than they are right now, at least for conforming loan amounts. During the rare times when rates have been better, they've only been marginally so and for brief periods. Jumbo rates are also still low, though not quite as good as they were a year or so ago.

Pardon the caps, I don't intend to shout, but only to emphasize the following point:

GIVEN THAT RATES ARE JUST ABOUT AT THE LOWEST POINT THEY'VE BEEN IN DECADES, IT STANDS TO REASON THAT THEY'LL ALMOST CERTAINLY BE HIGHER FOR MOST OF THE FUTURE, INSTEAD OF LOWER. WITH THAT IN MIND, YOU'RE NOW ABLE TO GET JUST ABOUT THE MOST ATTRACTIVE FIXED RATE FINANCING YOU'LL LIKELY EVER SEE. WITH RATES LIKELY TO BE HIGHER FOR MUCH OF OUR FUTURE YEARS OF HOME OWNERSHIP, INTEREST RATES FOR ADJUSTABLES WILL ALSO LIKELY BE HIGHER FOR MUCH OF THEIR TERMS THAN YOU CAN CURRENLTY GET WITH A FIXED RATE MORTGAGE.

Thinks about that, please. If you're considering anyting other than a fixed rate loan today, there should be a very good reason. Unless you know that you'll be moving or paying off your mortgage within a couple years, that FIXED rate loan will almost certainly be in your best interest.
 
So what kind of intrest rates are available today for 30-year fixed, assuming an individual with very good credit scores.
Mark
 
Family man current rates are easily found on the net. Rates are artifically low and will hit historic lows within a week or so given a 5 basis point cut by the Fed.

The lowest I can ever remember was 5.1, my parents bought our first house in 68 and their rate was 5.85.

A discount in the Fed rate generally, but not always, trickles down by a factor .5 to home mortgage rates.

Could they go lower than 5.1? Yes. If housing doesn't stabilize and the economy continues to slide they may go a couple 1-2 basis points lower 4.9-5.0. A couple of basis points is certainly not worth waiting for given this rare opportunity.

A basis point is ._0, so if the Fed cuts the rate by .50 that would be a 5 basis point adjustment or a probable .25 basis point adjustment from mortgage lenders.

You could pay more for your mortgage (points) to get a better rate, but don't do it. These rates are awesome for home buyers and may never return in your lifetime. If you are planning to buy, visit a trusted mortgage lender rep. or pm our residence experts to get all your ducks in a row and lock in a pre-approved contract from your lender. Timing is everything and the bank will want to verify funds, etc. etc. The time to start is RIGHT NOW!

I'm sure CAelknuts or Mortgageman will correct me if I am wrong.
 
Lowest interest rates in many years. May never be this low again. Too bad home prices are still 20% higher than they should be, in most places.

Pure speculation on my part I know. Sorry, I've always been a financial pessimist.

Car dealers do something similar. 0% interest rate. Just pay the sticker price.

Wheel and deal on the price THEN get the low rate!:)

Eel
 
Eel,

Great point. Too bad you can't wheel and deal on the value of your home and then refinance it. I could get alot of business that way :). Homes are still appreciating in Utah.


What are rates today? Great question. The problem with it is that I received 3 e-mails today from one lender raising their rates and then lowering them according to the stock market and the bonds for the day. Just to give you an idea though. I locked my dad in today on a 30 year fixed rate at 5.25% with him pulling some "cash-out" which is usually a tad bit higher rate than just a rate/term refinance (no cash-out). Obviously it all depends on your loan to value, credit score, whether or not you can prove your income, etc.

Beware out there. There are alot of loan officers scamming people on rates and their loan programs. Bait and switch type stuff. If you don't feel something is right, ask for advice. PM, I will give you honest advice, or e-mail me. My website and e-mail are on my profile on this post. DO NOT GET TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Do some research before you commit to anything. Make sure you get a Good Faith Estimate, Truth in Lending (which shows your APR).

Right now is a great time!!
 
MortgageMan, I know you and CAelknut as fine honest gentlemen. I'm probably just a little jealous. I had my house built in 1975 and carried a 9.25% mortgage on a $25K loan for 19 years. I paid it off about 6 years early. Back then interest rates remained about the same, with no real advantage to refinance.

Right now IS a great time!

Eel
 
Mortgageman and CAelknuts I have question for you guys. If the fed really wanted to accelerate the absorption of high volume key real estate markets, what if they were to:

Raise the exemption 250/500 to 500/1 million, while keeping the terms at 2/5.

I can feel Eel's cheshire grin.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-08 AT 11:01PM (MST)[p]Forthewall, I regard the subject of paying points a little differently than you've indicated in your post above. Paying points will get a borrower a lower interest rate, hence a lower monthly payment. As a very general rule of thumb, paying a point will result in a reduction of .25% on the interest rate for a 30 year fixed and .375% on a 15 year fixed. This isn't always the case due to pricing fluctuations, but it works over 90% of the time.

You'll find that the monthly savings with the lower payment will completely recoup the upfront expense you paid in points in about five years. It varies from loan to loan, but I generally see my clients recoup their upfront outlay in 48-62 months. If you are staying in your home long term, say for at least 7 years and expect to keep that mortgage for that entire time, you're going to be better off paying points. If you're going to be selling or definitely refinancing in 5 years or less, I'd advise you to not pay points. Of course, this doens't take into account the ability to deduct the points on your income tax return as prepaid finance charges, and this will vary from borrower to borrower. It also doesn't take into account the time value of money, or loss of use of the funds.

I suggest to my clients that, if they are planning on staying in their home long term and expect to have the mortgage long term, to think of paying points this way: If you invested $1,000.00 into an investment vehicle and got it all back in 5 years, you've got a 20% return on investment. That is analagous to what you get when you pay points for a lower interest rate and payment. It takes about 5 years to get back to even, and then you're money ahead for each and every month you have that mortgage from that point onward. If you can do better than that by investing the funds you'd use to pay points, invest them elsewhere. I would ask our members, though, how often you've invested in anything that guarantees you a return anywhere near 20%. Whatever the math works out to on any financing, that is the way it's going to be for the life of the loan, with no exceptions.

With rates where they currently are, bouncing around in the low to mid 5's, 5.25-5.625% for a conforming 30 fixed; if you're staying in your home long term and refinancing, consider paying a point or so to get a lower rate and payment. With an interet rate under 5.00%, which is very acheivable with just a bit of improvement or paying just a bit more in points, you'll have an interest rate lower than anyone else you're likely to know, and lowe than your parents probably ever saw, either. The market is a bit volatile right now, and will probably continue to be so for the foreseeable future. There is no guarantee that rate cuts by the Fed will lead to lower rates, as the market sometimes responds adversly to Fed rate cuts, so if you think you might benefit from refinancing, find a qualified mortgage professional you feel you can trust and explore your options.

If you need a second opinion, you all know of two people who'll help you in reviewing the information, or will help you directly if you so desire.
 
FTW, we were both writing at the same time, so I didn't see your question right away. Personally, I think raising the homeowner exemption would be a wonderful thing to do, but for different reasons than you're asking. Your question asks how I think it would effect absorption of standing home inventory. First, the tax exemtion on the gain in the sale of your home isn't a Fed issue, that is an IRS issue, it is tax law. The Fed doesn't have anything to do with IRS regulations, that is congress' purview. I'd like to see congress and the IRS have higher one time and lifetime exemtions, but that has more to do with wealth creation than it does with anything to stimulate the housing market. The market needs people to buy houses right now, not sell them. There are plenty of banks out there who'll gladly sell you a house right now to get it off their REO inventory, and there are some great deals for buyers. I expect this situation to continue improving for buyers with some cash and a dispassionate view of the market, for at least the next 6-12 months.

About the Federal Reserve System, realize that the Fed doesn't control, or directly care about, housing. The Fed controls our nations banking system and heavily influences monetary policy. Housing is closley related to that, but not directly so. It is a very common misunderstanding that Fed policy controls long term, i.e. mortgage, rates. This is not the case. The Fed only controls the Federal Funds Rate and the Discount Rate, which are rates that major banks pay to the Fed to borrow money from them, and pay each other when they borrower from each other overnight. Changes in these rates directly influence short term rates like the Prime interest rate, and credit card rates and auto loans, but only indirectly influence long term rates like mortgages.

Long term rates move in loose relation to Fed rates and policy, but more because of expectations of investors who fear inflation and the impact that Fed policy will have on inflation. This explains why, in part, you sometimes see long term mortage rates get worse when the Fed lowers their rates. That is because of fear in the markets that Fed policy will contribute to higher inflation. The bond market reacts badly, and that affects mortgage rates. If the interest rate markets believe that changes in Fed policy will lead to growth without danger of inflation, pricing generally improves.
 
I liked the car to house comparison. I am no home pro, but it seems to me the lower the interest rate, the higher the price? Also, today's generation does not look at the rates as a way to lower the payment, they look at ways to get a bigger house.

I am not sure what the Feds are doing to help people with their mortgages, all I know is they are doing it? People's greedy ways and credit retardedness is going to bring us all down. I just shake my head when I see what "kids" build these days. They got all the trimmings to boot. A new truck, SUV, ATV's, boats, and trailers.

My soapbox for today!;-)
 
KTC, part of what you'r seeing is the fault of lenders nationwide, more than any other group besides congress. Over the last five years or so, lending guidelines became progressively looser and looser, to the point of recklessness. You have Congress urging banks and mortgage lenders to find more ways to get more Americans into homes, and lenders very willing to comply by bringing out more and more mortgae products to "qualify" more people to borrow money for home purchases.

The problem with this scenario was the many of those people weren't qualified to take on these obligations based on a gigantic pool of experience over many years by lenders. People who couldn't qualify for a certain mortgage just had to take out a different type of loan with looser guidelines. Lots of people got into houses, or into bigger houses, than they could afford. Now, we're seeing the residue of that environment. Lots of empty houses and falling prices. It's going to take time to work itself out, and artificial policies won't fix the problem, its just going to take time.
 
CA,

Thanks for the reply. That comment about recklessness makes a lot of sense. I have talked to some people about getting homes and the rules were no where what I faced 23 years ago! They were STRICT!
 
Great post CAelknut. Pretty much sums it up, not much I can add to that. Feds cut rates again today and our rates have gone up once then back down twice. It's a crazy market right now. I hope things settle back down next week.
 

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