Hot Topic ... Flying to Scout

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Hot topic in our Wyoming forum .... Flying to Scout. What's your opinion? Whether legal or not, is it right? As with other technological advantages that we have over our prey, is this going too far? What can ever be done?

I know outfitters who use this tactic. As a business owner, I understand them doing all they can within the law to keep their business alive. But as a hunter, I think it's crappy to do that. We already have huge advantages over our prey. Will it ever stop or will we keep improving our advantages until we're absolutely guaranteed success?

What's your thoughts guys? And gals....

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....
 
My dad would take us up for years until about the late 90's. Lots of his friends too. Back then, it wasn't a big deal and the laws were different in AZ then they are now. My feeling is that it's okay if you follow the law which I think is 24 or 48 hours before a hunt. If you think about it, before a hunt, there's a hunt. So it's kind of impossible to accomplish anything because there is no legal time to be up. I did not see too much advantage other then just seeing what was out there. There were times when we went varmint calling and spotted some deer, the next day we went up to see if we could find them and never could spot the same ones. However, it would bother me if I was involved in a serious hunt and had a plane circling around.
I do miss those times. He had a Cessna 172 that was real good at that. At the end, he also had a Beech Bonanza. That was the most fun, nothing like going 200+ mph 50' off the ground.
 
Those $20,000.00 Dall sheep hunts in the NWT would probably be little more than week-long camping trips, without some advance chopper scouting to locate ram bands. Some of the outfitter territories are 10,000+ square miles and sheep may occupy only a tiny portion of that at any given time. Every guy that goes up there will still bust his arse humping those mountains to get a ram killed. Just one example that came to mind.
 
Popular tactic around here used by many hunters. Total crap IMO. Even used by some to bump the animal in a specific direction. As hunters we have long crossed the fairness to the animal line. We should take a few steps back.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."
 
I would expect if ANY of us (hunter, outfitter, guide) were hunting and a plane, heli, chute plane, or drone came flying low spooking critters they were attempting to scout/hunt they would be pretty upset!

Whether it is Alaska or Wyoming antelope I would consider flying or use of drones of any type as harassing wildlife..especially during hunting season. I can understand flying to access remote locations in Alaska or Canada but don't believe they are necessary anywhere else? If say, a guide or hunter can't spend the time hiking and scouting monster muley bucks in region G or H in Wyo on the ground why should they have the advantage of spotting monster bucks from the air? Some day I'm sure we could sit at our computer and locate giant bucks and bulls from the air...where is the line drawn? I guess I'm a bit old fashion and believe it should be hunter vs critter.
 
How would you enforce any rule against it? Even Alaska's is unenforceable in the practical sense. Ban aircraft and enforce with missiles??? THAT would work but some may think it a bit harsh.
With today's techno-stuff somebody that has funds will find a way to do it. They would not have to even get in a plane themselves to precisely have an animal pinpointed.

Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me, cost alone will limit any potential offenses. Rich guys have an advantage, get over it.
 
I think it would be tough to enforce but without a law in place there are a lot of people that take full advantage of things and go as far as they can without breaking a law. If an outfitter license or hunter's opportunity to hunt is at stake with a substantial fine I would expect abuse of laws wouldn't be as common as they are today. I was on a UT elk hunt a few years ago and there were guys driving up and down roads spotlighting at night. According to UT law it's ok to spotlight as long as the person in the vehicle doesn't have a weapon. Is that right and should there be a law to potentially stop that kind of nonsense? I'm sure if there was a law there would be less of that kind of crap going on!

A lot of it also comes down to ethics? Is it ok to use chute planes and drones...or spotlight at night to locate game? Is it ok to bait game, is it ok to shoot from a vehicle window....the list goes on!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-14 AT 10:17AM (MST)[p]"Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me, cost alone will limit any potential offenses. Rich guys have an advantage, get over it."


Great attitude there buddy and it appears there is a lot more of it going on than most of us are aware of! If everyone had that thought process, it wouldn't be too long until we're like Europe and the average Joe won't be hunting at all! Just because a person has money shouldn't allow him to do whatever he wants even if it would be hard to enforce. Catch one violator and sock it to them, including forfeiture of the aircraft, and I bet it would slow that garbage down considerably!
 
I'm curious as to why someone always brings up that it will difficult to enforce? So what.

Many laws, especially game laws, are difficult to enforce. Should we not have them? With FFA regulations, I can guarantee any charter type flights, hired to scout, will come to an end immediately. Private flights may continue, most likely flying higher, until someone turns in the numbers on the plane. After the word gets out, this practice of flying and scouting will be severely reduced. That's a good thing.
 
OK mr deep thinker tell me how you would eliminate the perceived problem?

I think there is a lot LESS OF IT going on than the rumor-mill internet would have you conspiracy guys would believe...

It is pretty hard not to notice a plane buzzing a mountain on a still Oct morning.

And no, I do not give a flying f@#% what goes on in Utah.

I would also dispute your contention that some guy flying a plane will mean I can't hunt next year, as usual you connect dots that have no connection.

But you are topgun and you are entitled to your opinion, doesn't mean I have to pay attention to it, shoot 'em down tough guy, I'll applaud from a safe distance.
 
The more advantage reaped by the few; the less opportunity for the many. What cannot be restricted with regulations will be restricted by tag numbers and season length.

Sound familiar?? This is not necessarily a money issue.
 
What I have found is it's only wrong if your not doing it. There are people that would shoot at a deer upwards of 1000yds but ##### if a plane flies over and vice versa.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-14 AT 11:19AM (MST)[p]>OK mr deep thinker tell me
>how you would eliminate the
>perceived problem?

***Read the posts by jm77 and jims!

>I think there is a lot
>LESS OF IT going on
>than the rumor-mill internet would
>have you conspiracy guys would
>believe...

***If you asked how many members have seen it while they were out in the field, including myself, it's definitely not internet gossip!


>It is pretty hard not to
>notice a plane buzzing a
>mountain on a still Oct
>morning.
>

***No kidding, and that's why with more and more of us seeing it going on that it needs to be stopped!


>And no, I do not give
>a flying f@#% what goes
>on in Utah.


***Maybe everyone should since if things are happening in one state it might just be happening in other places and probably is!


>I would also dispute your contention
>that some guy flying a
>plane will mean I can't
>hunt next year, as usual
>you connect dots that have
>no connection.

***Didn't say it will happen next year, but if wealthy people continue to go to the head of the line, buy up all the land or lease it such that average Joes can't afford it that could happen sometime down the line. Connect enough dots and sooner or later things can happen that aren't good most of the time

>But you are topgun and you
>are entitled to your opinion,
>doesn't mean I have to
>pay attention to it, shoot
>'em down tough guy, I'll
>applaud from a safe distance.

***Thank you for being so kind, but maybe you should realize that I'm more than likely in the vast majority with my thoughts on this subject, unlike yourself that would rather toss it aside and make jokes!
 
I suspect anyone that has access to a plane would think it is OK and those of who do not think this is an unfair advantage. I could argue that scouting from an automobile is unsportsman like but I bet a lot of people on here do it.

What types of vehicles are ethical to scout from - self-propelled bikes, four wheelers, trucks, 4 wheel drive trucks, etc.

Frankly driving an automobile all over the country can harass wildlife as much or more than a plane or chopper at a reasonable altitude.

So you are out hunting and nice guy stops you and says I just saw a huge bull from my plane offering to share the location - Do you decline the information or accept it - everyone of you accepts it.

I do not think it is very sporting and have never used this tactic but I would be a hypocrite if I said I would not take advantage if it were available at no cost. How many guys hunting Alaska have had their pilot fly them around the hunt area before landing?

I agree that most people believe "it is only wrong if I am not doing it".
 
I think it should be outlawed. Wildlife should be fair chase. Using aircraft is not fair chase.
 
Iowan said

"What types of vehicles are ethical to scout from - self-propelled bikes, four wheelers, trucks, 4 wheel drive trucks, etc."

When these vehicles can fly, then they are unethical to scout from.
 
It's too bad that the game animals can't advance as rapidly as humans, then they would run and hide under a tree when the planes fly over, but they don't, and they won't ever.
Humans are going to continue advancing and our ability to harvest the game animals is going to get better every year. How does the future look? Can we create more animals in a significant enough number to offset our advantages?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....
 
Guides, outfitters, and CWMUs have been far more harmful to hunting than aerial scouting ever will be. That and California. Their legal nonsense seems to bleed eastward. Soon we won't have to worry about it at all once the bleeding hearts beat us at the ballot box. Cash in while the going is good I suppose.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
I would have thought the replies would be overwhelming against scouting with airplanes and drones. I guess it's a sign of the times that the commercialization of trophys and big game hunting, the get one any way you can attitude is so prevalent.
I don't see a good future for traditional western big game hunting, and it has nothing to do with anti hunters, it has everything to do with us.
Every successive generation seems to be less attached to the land and more attached to technology, It seems with that comes the new attitude.
 
You can't teach ethics. Some people agree with flying for scouting, some don't. I personally think it is wrong and flying should not be allowed. I understand outfitters making a living etc., but some of them take it too far. IMO, flying for a sheep (that has regulated tags) in a giant section of Alaska is totally different than flying in Wyoming and Marking a GPS waypoint over every big deer you fly over in a general unit where there are unlimited tags. I am a bleeding heart for mule deer. They are on the decline. They are pretty habitual animals and if you locate their hiding spot, you can go there time and time again until you catch them..... When you mark a band of Rams.... Who knows where they will be in 24-48 hours. They could be several valleys away. Mule deer are smart, but their habits are one of their weaknesses. It personally makes me sick to think that if a hunter has the time, and money to fly, they can pinpoint and identify the hiding holes of the majority of mature mule deer in a particular hunting area. It is actually cheaper to fly than to hunt and scout in Wyoming. $150-$200 per hour for a morning or two for a few hours each morning would cover more ground than you could in years of scouting and hunting from the ground. It's pretty easy to eat up $6-800 in fuel, food, etc. if you're putting in multiple scouting trips and a big hunt. If you take into account what your time is worth, your money ahead. Could I afford that? Yes. Will I use that method? No. If you are a skilled enough hunter or outfitter, that waypoint for that buck leads to a harvest. Where's the hunt? There's no need to look over the next ridge line or climb the next peak. I have focused on my dislike for flying because of how easily bucks are found. When a talented outfitter does this, it's easy to eliminate a large portion of mature bucks year after year. Just for mule deers sake, outlaw flying. Period.
 
So which is worse using your 4x4 to hunt from the roads or scouting from a plane - easy choice for me. Again I have never scouted using a plane and likely never will but I think it would be hypocritical for me to jump on here saying this is wrong when I use modern compound bows, trail cameras, good modern optics, Google Earth extensively, GPS,top end hunting clothes, and a 4x4 truck to get me from place to place. Most of this was not available even one generation ago.

I am first and foremost against anything that eliminates or degrades wildlife habitat.

I did see an episode of Fresh Tracks where the hunter used a helicopter to access of piece of land located public land - I thought this was a great use of modern technology.
 
Iowan,

I think you need to start speaking for yourself only, and leave the speculation of what others do to yourself as well.

I have access to a plane and one of the best pilots in Wyoming. My buddy flies for the civil air patrol as well as the State. Any time I feel like flying, it wouldn't cost me anything other than fuel.

I've declined offers when I had great tags here in Wyoming to fly with him to look around. I've never once scouted animals from the air, and I have the time, means, and easy access to it anytime I want. I drew a line...and I wont cross it.

Its pretty obvious by your comments comparing using binoculars and a 4 wheel drive truck to scouting from a plane, that you've not flown much.

I've flown extensively in the backcountry in the job I do, both fixed wing and helicopters. Its a pretty rare flight to not see elk, deer, pronghorn, sheep, goats, etc. from the air. I remember flying into the Winds seeing sheep, moose, elk, deer, and antelope the same day...including an ancient old ram on a rocky open ridge. That ram really stood out from the air, but would have required a long, nasty cross-country hike to even get to a glassing point. I would guess that ram was never seen on his summer range by a human from the ground.

Also, on mornings like we're having today in Wyoming, good snow cover, clear, and cold weather the last week, it wouldn't take long to find a chitload of bull elk on open ridges.

A line needs to be drawn, and using aircraft/drones to scout needs to come to an end.
 
At some point we should get back to a more traditional way of hunting, not only for the tradition but also for the animals we enjoy. Just because we have the technology to do something doesn't mean we should.

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
BuzzH is off his meds again.

Why do you have to be such an @sshat. Iowan makes some good points and you pretty much tell him to shut up. Well, Why don't you crawl back under your bridge until you can play nice and let everyone have their say without your snide comments.
 
We ain't seen nothin' yet (remember BTO?)! Drones can scout an area much cheaper and more stealthily than planes. Infrared cameras can find game @ night when the drones can't be detected. And "hunters" who pay teams of scouters to find their animal and keep track of it until the hunter gets a break in his busy schedule to fly out and shoot it, well you see where I'm going w this.

Speaking as a dinosaur, I hate it. But I'm closer to extinction than some others here. Events of today predict and create the future, so I hope many are stepping up for how things were and are. Otherwise the future of hunting could be lost.
 
I've been fortunate to have access to a 25,000 acre private ranch in the Texas to hunt for the last 20+ years.

The grandson of the original owner has a Cessna 152 and flies the ranch regular during season looking for deer and poachers. He's offered me rides on several occasions but I won't do it. Something just doesn't feel right about it. If I killed a deer that was spotted from the air, I wouldn't be proud of myself. Also didn't use the skills I've learned over the past 40 years of hunting to harvest the deer.

It might be legal but personally, it doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

On a footnote, the grandson has never killed a deer bigger than a 155. Might be karma.........
 
elkantlers,

Really?

Why don't you try READING what is written before you bust your leg jumping to conclusions.

I'll remind you what Iowan said,


I suspect anyone that has access to a plane would think it is OK and those of who do not think this is an unfair advantage.

I suspect he painted with a pretty broad brush, I told him so in my reply. I have access to a plane, a top notch pilot, and also have the means, time, etc. to make it happen. Yet, I don't. Even though I have much easier access to flying than a vast majority of hunters, I don't do it, I don't think its OK. I based that on the luxury of not being forced to guess that scouting via aircraft is "no different than using a set of Swarovski binos and a 4 wheel drive". That statement is flat ignorance of the highest order...period. If you think otherwise, you live in fantasyland.

So you are out hunting and nice guy stops you and says I just saw a huge bull from my plane offering to share the location - Do you decline the information or accept it - everyone of you accepts it.

Really? Pretty bold statement there as well. Believe it or not, there still are hunters on planet earth that rely on themselves to hunt. Some even have ethics.

So elkantlers, no, there wasn't many "good points" made by Iowan other than to prove how little those that don't fly know about how fuggin' vulnerable some animals are to those that have eyes in the air. Its a joke, and an unfair advantage that should be outlawed.

Sorry if I don't apply enough sugar on my posts for your liking. I speak my mind and base same on personal experience rather than speculation and guesses.
 
Our need to kill the biggest and best animal out there drives our desire to use advanced hunting techniques. That in turn ultimately limits our opportunity to do so by tilting all the advantages to the "hunter". In my mind advances in technology have turned "hunting" into "more efficient killing", which will ultimately wipe out more and more "trophy" animals. Ultimately threads on this forum might eventually turn into: "How to kill a forky from 2 miles away with the aid of a chuteplane".

Air travel has eliminated our past inability to go places, so there is no place that game animals are safe. That is sad for both of us. It will eventually wipe out what we love, unless we take actions ourselves... "hunting ethics"

The question is, how many of us really want to be called "hunters", instead of "more efficient killers". :)
 
I know of a few guys that getting into big bucks every year that have ultra lights. I thought about getting one myself several years ago. But I feel life is to precious to risk it. I dont think its my place to name names or say it's right or wrong. I just do not choose to fly to find my game. Even though it seems the best way to cover country that is hard to access on ground. I have not shot any monster bucks in my life, so maybe my thinking is wrong. These other guys get into them every year. Heck one of these fellows even has three ultra light planes. So I guess it works well enough to buy three planes.
 
Piper nailed it. Get the trophy at all costs. Sadly, this is the attitude of many modern day hunters.

Whatever happened to the adventure of the unknown? It's all about inches of bone now.

This last season, I held a premium elk tag( finally). During the rifle portion of my hunt, a local with a dubious past for game violations was flying the unit looking for big bulls. His nephew owned a tag as well, so he felt it incumbent upon himself to do his scouting for him since he had access to a plane and a pilot. Mind you, this is during open season...not pre-season scouting. 24-hr rule be damned!! It wasn't his tag, so he was legal???!!!

As you all know, public land hunting is subject to others ruining your stalk; that's just the way it is. But now we have to worry about planes and drones ruining your hunt as well??

Gimmee a break. At some point, we(as hunters) need to police ourselves and say " enough is enough". Doesn't the game deserve a chance to live? Isn't that what hunting is supposed to be about? It's called "Fair Chase".

I was encouraged by a friend to fly the unit before season. No way! That's not what this hunt was about! It was about the adventure; the hunt itself!! Too many have lost sight of this.

Too bad there is a large percentage of hunters that need the biggest buck or bull so that they can show off and be relevant. That's really what it boils down to. BTW, this year was not the first time I've witnessed flying for hunting...
 
Horsecreek: "I just bought a drone for
>this reason...Catch me if you
>can"

What a stupid post whether it's meant as a joke or is for real! That's what we really need on this site when we're discussing critical things that may lead to the ruination of hunting as we know it and someone comes on with that!
 
Here is a hypothetical for you. You booked a Dall Sheep hunt in AK. Once at the main camp the outfitter takes you and your guide out to a spike location to start your hunt. Its a two seater plane and he takes the guide first. While he has the guide with him he flys over the general area he wants to drop you to look for sheep. If he and the guide find rams in huntable locations that they believe are legal he drops the guide at this spike location and then comes back and gets you. If nothing they believe to be legal is spotted he tries a different spot. You then try to hunt these rams. The rams may be several miles away from where he lands you but you at least know they are around. You try to hunt them for a few days, if no luck then the guide calls the outfitter on the Sat. phone and asks to be moved to a new location. The same scouting trip from the plane is repeated each time. You abide by all laws and never harass the sheep, that would be counter productive, and you never hunt the same day you fly. How many of you would tell the outfitter that you do not want him to do this and would rather he drop you and the guide in a likely location and you will hunt from there?

I ask this question because this is exactly the scenario I was in when I went to AK on a sheep hunt two years ago. I knew the outfitter scouted likely locations prior to the season opening and also flew during the season when weather permitted but I did not know he scouted areas right before he dropped you to hunt. While I would never dream of using a plane to scout in my home state of Wyoming or any other lower 48 state for that matter, I did not object to the outfitter doing this while I was with him in AK. What say you?

Also, as it turned out I did not take a ram on this hunt. In 14 days of hunting and three different hunt moves we could only locate one ram that was legal. That was on the last spot on day 12. The guide did not like where the ram was when we found him and felt we did not have a chance of making a good stalk that evening given his location and the wind direction. We came back the next day from the opposite side of the mountain but when we got there we could not turn up the legal ram. We saw his smaller buddies but not him.
 
Good question mulecreek and I think you gave my answer in your post. IMHO hunting sheep up in AK is so vastly different with the millions of square miles of territory and the way sheep move around compared to mule deer I don't feel the two are really in the same ballpark. I think your hunt proves that if you moved three times and didn't kill a legal ram in that length of time.
 
I guess I'm guilty too. When I started doing research into a solo caribou hunt, I booked with Mark Kneen. You load your gear into his Super Cub and "scout" until you locate big groups of caribou. Then search for a place to land. Get dropped off, set up camp and wait until the next morning to hunt. 10 miles in any direction and you may not even see a caribou.

Caribou herds move about 15 miles a day, and it's about the only way to ensure a reasonable chance of success unless you have a couple months to hang out and hope.

Totally different than what we're talking about here in the lower 48.

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
>Horsecreek: "I just bought a drone
>for
>>this reason...Catch me if you
>>can"
>
>What a stupid post whether it's
>meant as a joke or
>is for real! That's what
>we really need on this
>site when we're discussing critical
>things that may lead to
>the ruination of hunting as
>we know it and someone
>comes on with that!

Looking at ultra lights as well. Wanna go up sometime topgun?
Get a sense of humor azzhat...good hell this place is getting old.





Traditional >>>------->
 
You Think I'm Investing what I have in the PERTY BIRDIE & Not using it?

Took me Months to get it out of the Big Yellow Pine!

Gonna have a better Pilot this year!:D

4660drone.jpg




[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-15 AT 09:00AM (MST)[p]One thing that I think that is very important to point out to some of you in regards to aerial scouting... Making aerial scouting illegal is not going to save the big bucks, bulls, rams or whatever like your hoping it will. The guys I know who have used a plane, use it very little and really don't see that much of a positive impact. Most people use "The Plane" as an excuse to why some are killing big stuff.... The guys that kill big stuff, are still going to kill the big stuff..FACT!!!

IMO if we want to see big impacts to protecting our hunting traditions we need to take a step back from all technology together. What are you personally willing to give up??? Tags every year?? Trail cameras?? Long Range Weapon systems?? Rut Hunting?? It is always easy to point the finger, few are willing to look within...

I personally would be willing to give it all up for a more limited and traditional approach to hunting. I would also be willing to give up my tag every year as a Wyoming resident to preserve our mule deer herd in a heart beat!! I just wish the Management would take all impacts into consideration and protect our herds, adapt to the changing times!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-15 AT 09:36AM (MST)[p]WH---It's amazing that you are now using the word "Fact" like another member on here does. Look it up in the dictionary and you'll find you're wrong in using it with no basis to prove your comment is correct. There is no argument that technology is obviously taking it's toll on the animals and making it easier to kill a big buck. I also think most would disagree with you on how effective flying is and if it wasn't I would suggest nobody would be doing it, rather than more and more from what it seems. The WY statute is already there on flying and the Regulation just needs that 24 hour rule taken out so it matches along with disallowing drones before it gets to be widespread. I don't know how we will ever eliminate LR hunting and killing these big deer unless the G&F were to outlaw any scope over a certain magnification. Then that would probably lead to "sky busting" where a guy just sends one downrange with a wish and a prayer that he hits the animal. I really don't know what to say because a lot of what we're talking about involves ethics and that is impossible to regulate.
 
This is one of many grey area's of hunting ethics!

Remember that some Traditional archers think Compound bows are too much technology. Same with some Muzz hunters when looking at scoped rifles, or really any modern walled cartridge guns.

Some would have us only hunting a min of 5 miles from any kind of vehicle access here out west, though that would be pretty tough on all but the youngest and healthiest amongst us.

My first point is that at some level we all have our own set of ethics that we can choose to live by and encourage others to follow.

I agree that there are clear lines of ethics here, including 1) no harassment of animals 2). No harassment of hunters and 3) reasonable delay until you can hunt after flying.

While I understand the argument on the difference between the scale of Alaska and the lower 48, I see the line as being blurry.

I too have concerns where money becomes a larger and larger dividing line to access. I don't mind that some people can buy private property that I can't access, but I am bothered that profit alone denies access more and more where it did not before. Of course this is evidence of the evolution of our sport. Clearly I think access through aircraft can also provide benefits to those with more financial resources than average joe.

i don't have an issue with using aircraft to scout, as long as it is not helping to hunt. I'm not clear, and I doubt I could convince many on here, how to define scouting vs hunting, but I would guess a timeline of 2-7 days would be reasonable. I might define certain uses of helicopters to hover to view wildlife as harassment, which would eliminate some advantages.

I do believe we should have reasonable laws, despite the fact they may be quite difficult to enforce. I think having the laws, at minimum, sends a message. Clearly without laws we can't do a thing.

In a related subject, I have an issue with hiring high priced outfitters who not only fly to find the biggest trophies, but hire armies of scouters to not only find these trophies, but sit on them and harass away non-client tag holders, which is also legal to a point.

So, in summary, I feel that we need to address the inherent advantages that some of these grey areas provide, particularly to wealthy "trophy" hunters at the expense of average joe tag holders. I think it's pathetic when I see an obvious high fence bull or whitetail posted as some hard earned trophy, but think it's equally pathetic when the same guy is sitting next to 15 spotters that spent a month guarding a public land animal so that the rich shooter could be flown in with their entourage and video cameras to harvest an animal they had no part in finding(hunting). Anything we can do to reduce this, for profit, exploit of our public game is a worthy exercise. I think there are reasonable laws that can be enacted in regards to use of aircraft to "hunt" which can benefit average joe. I think there are some other areas we can help average joe as well.

I don't mean to shift the discussion away from use of aircraft to a rail against the rich or a generalized rail against outfitters, but a focus of where I think the use of aircraft is most problematic in my mind.
 
>It's too bad that the game
>animals can't advance as rapidly
>as humans, then they would
>run and hide under a
>tree when the planes fly
>over, but they don't, and
>they won't ever.
>Humans are going to continue advancing
>and our ability to harvest
>the game animals is going
>to get better every year.
>How does the future look?
>Can we create more animals
>in a significant enough number
>to offset our advantages?
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
>I need a friend....

NO. The reason isn't that the animals need an advantage. The reason is simple, SUCCESS. That word has become so twisted, so turned that the entire sport is being destroyed by the people who "claim" to love it. Unless we are 100% every year, we failed. If we hunt Dall sheep, but don't know exactly where the rams are we failed. If we don't kill 30 inch bucks, we failed. If we are a guide service we must produce 100%, on "book" animals EVERY YEAR or we failed. If Doyle gets a 400 inch bull, my company needs a 401 of it failed.
It is human nature to want to be successful. HOWEVER, the modern "trophy" hunter is beyond that. His absolute "need" to be the best, regardless of money, time, methods has created a sport in which what is good for him far out weighs what is best for hunters, the game, the future, etc. Success to my grandpa meant food in bottles year after year, does, bucks, didn't matter, the kids were hungry. Nowdays. Nowdays dudes roam the counry paying 6 plus digits to kill an animal. They don't own knives, and the thought of eating that meat disgusts them to the point that they start "charities" where they "donate" it. They sell it as helping the future of the sport, but lets be real, it helps the guide, and outfitter. And for that "help" the buyer expects something in return. That pressure will always make the buisnesses do whatever they can to "succeed". When hunting became an industry, and not a heritage, we threw out any ethics, morals, ideals, etc. Buisnesses are not people. They exist to create profits, otherwise they don't exist, and if pushing every boundary creates profits it will be done. Why buy a plane, drones are cheaper. In the future real time satelite imagery will be cheaper. We sold our heritage to the highest dollar years ago, until that is taken back the animals we hunt will always be a diminishing resource, or WE will, because you can't have both and run a buisness. WE are the problem. WE wet ourselves at the chance to "get a tag" at an expo. The buisness model is the same as the drug dealer who gives you a little taste. WE wait for 6 months every year to see if we can get that one CWMU tag, then get a few days, during non peak buying time to try and pretend we are high rollers on private hunting units. WE then sit for 5 years and try to remember how great it was while the REAL highrollers bypass waiting periods and draws and do it year after year. When WE kinda wonder why, WE get the apologist who say "life isn't fair", "money has priviledge". Why? Because we want so baddly to be Denny, Doyle, Randy Ulmer, Jim Shockey, etc, that we let them do whatever they want, in exchange for "just a little taste". Until WE decide that hunting is a HERITAGE, and that success is based on skill and effort, not money and technology, we will watch year after year as the BUISNESS of killing, replaces hunting, and it does so by convincing WE, that it is good for the sport. Modern hunting is the only sport I know of where convincing the majority that giving up tags, access, etc so the minority can have there way is good for the sport. Is it good for golf for everyone to not do it so that a few can? ITS NOT. Good for the trophy hunter, the guide, and the outfitter is badfor you. Sitting home is bad for you. Planes are bad for you. Drones are bad for you. CWMU's are bad for you. Welfare tags are bad for you. LR is bad for you, but turn your head because when your waiting period is over, and after 20 years of putting in, you just might get your taste, then you can support the "trophy hunter" regardless of his methods!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hossblur,

Tip of the hat to you sir, that is the post of the year and its only January 2. I couldn't agree more, well said.
 
If it's legal, I for one will not tell some-one else they can't use legal means to hunt, it has to be a personal choice same as what type of weapon(rifle or bow/Ml) you want to use for your hunt.
I'm sure there are some who thinks it's wrong to hunt coyotes from a plane, But it sure is a good way to hunt them.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
So, since its ok to hunt coyotes from a plane it should also be legal to hunt elk, deer, sheep, etc. from a plane?

WOW!
 
>So, since its ok to hunt
>coyotes from a plane it
>should also be legal to
>hunt elk, deer, sheep, etc.
>from a plane?
>
>WOW!
LOL, their is a difference unless you are a wolf or coyote lover.
 
>So, since its ok to hunt
>coyotes from a plane it
>should also be legal to
>hunt elk, deer, sheep, etc.
>from a plane?
>
>WOW!


Wow my butt! He never said any such thing!!!
 
>
>One thing that I think that
>is very important to point
>out to some of you
>in regards to aerial scouting...
>Making aerial scouting illegal is
>not going to save the
>big bucks, bulls, rams or
>whatever like your hoping it
>will.

Wrong, it will save many big bucks in the greys river area alone, if people actually stop flying to scout.


>The guys I
>know who have used a
>plane, use it very little
>and really don't see that
>much of a positive impact.

Get a new pilot.

> Most people use "The
>Plane" as an excuse to
>why some are killing big
>stuff.... The guys that
>kill big stuff, are still
>going to kill the big
>stuff..FACT!!!

True they will still kill big stuff but not as many.
1 morning trip in a plane covers 5 times the area I can cover on the ground.

>
>I
>would also be willing to
>give up my tag every
>year as a Wyoming resident
>to preserve our mule deer
>herd in a heart beat!!

Please do... Thanks
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-15 AT 07:06PM (MST)[p]Buzz And 264
Do you need help reading. You didn't read that "some"

"I'm sure there are some who thinks it's wrong to hunt coyotes from a plane, But it sure is a good way to hunt them".

Now where Did I say it was ok to hunt deer or elk from a plane or even scout them from a plane.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
I think some of you need to take a step back and think for a minute. How does taking a flight over deer or elk country in July or August really give one an unfair advantage during open hunting seasons. You all seem to have scouting mixed up with hunting. I agree that hunting the same day as flying should be illegal, maybe even longer periods of time like within a week but flying some country and seeing some animals a month or 2 months in advance of hunting season to pinpoint a buck or 2 doesn't give much more advantage than driving into the hills and pinpointing a couple of bucks. Let's make a new law, no vehicles to travel to your hunting spot, full on wilderness rules, anything mechanized even a bike gives an unfair advantage.
 
I used to think most people looked at the world through the same lenses I do, I was wrong.

If it's legal, some of us will do it, other's will self regulate.

I would like to have a room full of giant antlered big game.

Some of my good friends and neighbors do, I do not.

These friends and neighbors choose to hunt differently than I do. They spend more time in the field, or they work harder in the field than i do, or they work three jobs and have more money they are willing to spend than I do, they buy more horses, mules, rafts, atvs, outfitters, guides, extra guides, finders fees, apply in more States, buy more raffle tickets, hunting leases, they watch for and use every loop hole that's legal rather than buy a cabin, move into a larger home, take the family to Rome, pay for college for a child, donate to the food bank, etc. Some of my friends and neighbor can afford to do all of the above, some can't. I can't. But it has very little to do with money or wealth, it's simply choices we all make. I have friends that have airplanes that don't hunt, friends with mules that don't hunt, friends with large ranches that don't hunt, filthy rich friends that hunt every year and have never hired an outfitter or a guide. Yes, we all hunt for different reasons, we all want something different from our hunting experience, THANKFULLY.

If it's legal to fly, some will fly, regardless of how you or I view the behavior. COUNT ON IT.

So what?

We that hunt, hunt they way we want, not the way anyone else thinks we should, so long as it's legal. We'll all do what we want, with our time and with our money, and some will pursue game with an air plane, if it's legal. He11 some will do it even if it's not legal. Some would shot big game from a helicopter, if it was legal. They do not now nor will they EVER give a rats a$$ what you or I think.

In reality, most all of us (not 100% however) self regulate every time we step in the field, TO OUR OWN STANDARDS, REGARDLESS OF THE REGULATIONS, BUT NOT ONE OF US WILL EVER SELF REGULATE EXACTLY THE SAME.

If 100 sportsmen found a bag full of unidentified $100 bills, laying on the steps of the Post Office, those 100 sportsmen would self regulate in many different ways. Some would actually think, it's "finders ----- keepers" and never loose a minutes sleep.

If you expect all people to play by the same rules without specific regulation I respectfully believe your living in Disneyland.

We have to regulate, then PLAN FOR AND COUNT ON some people to live by the specific rule of law and not one jot or tittle more, if there is a loop hole....................you can bet your next 210" 4 x 4 mule deer they will PROUDLY use the loop, and they will think your crazy for not doing the same............ because we all self regulate, to our own standards.

DC
 
>I think some of you need
>to take a step back
>and think for a minute.
>How does taking a flight
>over deer or elk country
>in July or August really
>give one an unfair advantage
>during open hunting seasons. You
>all seem to have scouting
>mixed up with hunting. I
>agree that hunting the same
>day as flying should be
>illegal, maybe even longer periods
>of time like within a
>week but flying some country
>and seeing some animals a
>month or 2 months in
>advance of hunting season to
>pinpoint a buck or 2
>doesn't give much more advantage
>than driving into the hills
>and pinpointing a couple of
>bucks. Let's make a new
>law, no vehicles to travel
>to your hunting spot, full
>on wilderness rules, anything mechanized
>even a bike gives an
>unfair advantage.

I have never understood this idea. If one thing is questionable then burn down the forest? I personally don't sweat the plane thing as much, but we are to the point now of drones and ultralites. The advantage of plane vs. truck is so obvious its stupid to even compare the two, so I won't. Basically your argument is there should be no rule, no reg. just a freaking free for all. I guess I just listened as a boy about hunters being CONSERVATIONISTS, not just killers, but hey, with the LR, drone, "trophy hunter" segment that exists today its WHATEVER IS GOOD FOR ME TODAY ideals, so why not just open hunting up 365 24/7, i mean those season dates are unfair to people with jobs. I have become so DAMB disgusted with this modern ITS ALL ABOUT ME attitude is litterally sickens me. READ SOME HISTORY, that attitude when it came to wildlife lead to the near extinction of Buffalo, Elk, Deer, waterfowl, wolves, bears, bald eagles, etc, etc, etc. Luckily a few people decided that the perpetuation of the sport was MORE IMPORTANT than KILLING EVERYTHING so we have game animals today. But perhaps I am wrong, lets just get it on and kill everything, because I WANT SOME HORNS ON MY WALL!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-15 AT 11:45AM (MST)[p]Like I said before, It's OK as long as your the one doing it.

We could go on forever finding ways to limit harvest by outlawing methods used by some but not all. If you really wanted to protect big bucks in the Greys, or any other remote country, make it hunting by foot only, No planes, no atv's, no horses, no bicycles. Nothing but you own two legs.

Now before BuzzH tells me how wrong and stupid I am for having an opinion, I really don't believe we should do this. It is just to show there are many methods being used as an advantage to hunt and that as long as you are the one using the certain advantage, it is OK.

Just think how many animals would be safe if they said no horses!
 
A good friend of mine hit it right out of the park (very similar to something hossblur said).

He said until things get so bad, that even an idiot realizes it, there will be apologists for any method used to kill a deer, elk, pheasant, fish, etc. They'll make every excuse in the book for why____________method should be legal.

None of which have anything to do with whats best for the wildlife, its all about how can I get what I want, as easily as I want.

Hossblur has it 100% right, and really nothing more needs to be said.

Flying is an unfair advantage that absolutely needs to be outlawed, and it will be in Wyoming.
 
The single biggest problem concerning airborne scouting is the Failure of the States Law Enforcement to even communicate to sportsmen that it is illegal.I understand that there are some states where airborne scouting is still allowed with restrictions. The truth is that airborne scouting is highly illegal in most states. The problem is that Law Enforcement has completely failed to let sportsmen know.

For example I once wrote and sent a letter to Mike Fowkes head of Law Enforcement for the state of Utah DWR asking questions about specific time frames hunters could conduct airborne scouting. I wrote the letter because I was having an argument with another guide about what dates were and were not legal to fly. Mikes response was disappointing at best. In his reply he did not directly answer my question but instead quoted the confusing Big Game proclamation word for word.

In another instance and in accordance with The Nevada Hunt Book (Big Game rules) as well as Nevadas Big Game Seasons book and only after confirming the legality of the flight with the local Game Warden. I made 1 airborne scouting flight. After landing I was busted for the flight by the apparent coward and now current head of Law Enforcement for the State of Nevada Mr. Tyler Turnipseed.

Mr Turnipseed explained to me that the State of Nevada had made a mistake in the printing of its Big Game Seasons book and had failed to print one of its season (the heritage elk tag season) that he claimed was is progress. He even admitted that the Game Warden who told me I could fly that date had erred when he told me it was proper and legal to do so.

Bottom line is that I hear of and see people conducting airborne scouting often. When I talk to them about it they generally site the 48 hour rule. The confusing rule that says you may not fly with in 48 hours of a hunt. The same rule Mike Fowkes cited in his letter to me. The part that almost all hunters miss and the part that leads to most illegal scouting flights is that the 48 hour rule applys to all hunting seasons and that for 3 or 4 months in the fall there is a hunting season of one type or another almost everywhere. What most big game proclamations dont say is THIS MEANS THAT for the most part YOU CANNOT CONDUCT AIRBORNE SCOUTING FROM MID AUGUST TO JANUARY of the following year.
 
Hey Trammer---How many other violations in how many states have you been busted for where it was never your fault, LOL! PS: It's normally a 24 Hour rule before hunting, not 48!
 
The rule I am thinking about is the '12 month rule'.

There is no doubt I have see more aircraft flying around hunting areas, before and during seasons, in the last five years than the previous twenty.

Com'on this one's a no brainer everyone, scouting from aircraft needs to stop!
 
How many deer are killed each year by nimrods driving their ATVs/vehicles? How many deer are killed by hunters flying aircraft? This is a joke. Sounds like penis envy. We better outlaw high powered binos on tripods when scouting as this leads to a higher percentage of big bucks being killed. Really?
 
>How many deer are killed each
>year by nimrods driving their
>ATVs/vehicles? How many deer are
>killed by hunters flying aircraft?
>This is a joke. Sounds
>like penis envy. We better
>outlaw high powered binos on
>tripods when scouting as this
>leads to a higher percentage
>of big bucks being killed.
>Really?


YBO
I think when ATVs/vehicles and high powered binos on tripods start flying you might have an arguement. Really
 
I'm Flyin!

You wouldn't Buy a Truck not to Drive would you?

4660drone.jpg







[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
Damn planes are all over the place scouting for deer. From experience, I question how many of these (aircraft) are actually looking for a animal and how many are flying just to enjoy the scenery. Or, perhaps flying to check out a piece of property that might be for sale.

Waiting 24 hours is fair enough. My neighbor next door who has more toys than I do is not fair. If I cry enough maybe,just maybe there is Govt assistance available to level the playing field. My neighbor is an sass because he has a four car garage and I don't. He also has a SHOOT plane where he flys and shoots yotes and wuffs while in the air. Sounds like fun, I'm just jealous
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15 AT 01:39PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-15 AT 01:36?PM (MST)

Amazing attitude, everyone who believes airplane scouting should be outlawed has penis envy?, or we should outlaw binoculars because they give an an unfair advantage like planes give?. Amazing.

Founder. , do you think your concern over this is just envy?
 
Piper, the binos remark was tongue in cheek. Maybe you can help me with this question. How many bucks are shot out of a window of a truck or while driving a quad runner- vs -how many bucks are actually harvested by those who pre season scout by aerial flying?
 
Trucks stay on roads. Airplanes have none. Planes are not fair chase period. Time to outlaw it.
 
YBO, I'm not sure how you can justify scouting from a plane by saying more bucks are killed by people riding ATVs? Its so obvious that airplane scouting should be outlawed that it amazes me anyone could think otherwise.

There isn't much worse than being on a hunt or even up In the mountains and having airplanes buzzing around looking for herds of elk or trophy bucks on their summer range. Imagine taking a young Hunter out and showing them that kind of thing?

But I guess Its just because I have penis envy, go figure.
 
Ok I have been persuaded by the overwhelming logic of the MM jury. I think it only fair to err on the animals side, the law should read as follows:

No one who has ever flown in a plane in the lower 48 states can hunt big game in the lower 48. (because up north is "different"/ per MM opinion poll) Nor can they accompany or advise any hunter due to their unfairly gained knowledge.

Enforceable... yep go to the TSA tapes with naked pics of everybody for evidence, this will also prove the "penis envy aspect".

I should have very un-crowded conditions next fall... I can't wait!

Elk Ass I will blast that ugly thing out of the sky with illegal lead shot on sight! Only a 5 pt violation so I will still be able to hunt after paying my $68.

You guys are boring, every ##### thread boils down to "what rich people do that I hate" or you have the big penis strokers that claim how rich they are but they would never think of hunting with anything but a loin cloth and atlatl.

PATHETIC, but I have important rocks to pick, if I see a low flying plane I promise I will throw the rocks at it, instead of into the neighbors' yard.
 
I Think you hit that square on the head.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
>I Think you hit that square
>on the head.


No; actually he needs to be hit on the head for making such a ridiculous post and wasting the time of those who will read it!!!
 
Hey Squirrel!

Remember one thing!

The PERTY BIRDIE has you on Film before you can raise your Gun!

Lead Shot Huh?

You Cain't shoot Birds with Lead shot anymore!:D

Remember How PISSED people got several years back when I mentioned the High Country TUNE-UP?

Well it's My Turn to be a PRICK!

Somebody Shoots the PERTY BIRDIE I will know who it was & there will be HELL to pay!:D









[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
I'm pretty sure my concern isn't based on me being jealous or envious. And, it's not just scouting from the sky, there are other technological advantages that I think are going too far. As I've said before, I understand people using every possible advantage they can to be successful, my worry is that as our advantages continue to increase, tags will have to decrease. I don't believe there's anything the game animals can do to keep up with our advantages. We're going to have to help the animals in one way or another, whether it's less tags or lower success rate.

I'd rather hunt every year with a 10% success rate rather than once every 10 years with a 100% success rate.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook! I need a friend....
 
Buzz,

You are correct I have not scouted from a plane nearly (not at all in fact)as much as you have. I am sure you never used any information you gathered from your extensive flying time over vast areas of Wyoming to access areas, help decide where to apply for tags, identify areas with good game numbers, etc. I do not think it is very sporting to scout from a plane but I also am cautious of pushing my ethics on others without some thought looking at the issue from both sides.

I will save you some time - Iowan is stupid and I am right because what I did is different because (insert hypocritical excuse here).

Buzz said to Iowan:

Its pretty obvious by your comments comparing using binoculars and a 4 wheel drive truck to scouting from a plane, that you've not flown much.

I've flown extensively in the backcountry in the job I do, both fixed wing and helicopters. Its a pretty rare flight to not see elk, deer, pronghorn, sheep, goats, etc. from the air. I remember flying into the Winds seeing sheep, moose, elk, deer, and antelope the same day...including an ancient old ram on a rocky open ridge. That ram really stood out from the air, but would have required a long, nasty cross-country hike to even get to a glassing point. I would guess that ram was never seen on his summer range by a human from the ground.

Also, on mornings like we're having today in Wyoming, good snow cover, clear, and cold weather the last week, it wouldn't take long to find a chitload of bull elk on open ridges.

A line needs to be drawn, and using aircraft/drones to scout needs to come to an end.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-15 AT 01:52PM (MST)[p]Iowan,

Keep being cautious with that ethical line...plenty will cross it while you keep thinking.

I've never seen more people afraid to jump off the fence in my life...and this isn't even a tough issue to "look at from both sides".

It has already had major impacts on hunting in other states (AK), for example.
 
>I'm pretty sure my concern isn't
>based on me being jealous
>or envious. And, it's not
>just scouting from the sky,
>there are other technological advantages
>that I think are going
>too far. As I've said
>before, I understand people using
>every possible advantage they can
>to be successful, my worry
>is that as our advantages
>continue to increase, tags will
>have to decrease. I don't
>believe there's anything the game
>animals can do to keep
>up with our advantages. We're
>going to have to help
>the animals in one way
>or another, whether it's less
>tags or lower success rate.
>
>
>I'd rather hunt every year with
>a 10% success rate rather
>than once every 10 years
>with a 100% success rate.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>Will you LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
>I need a friend....

Agreed, Founder your almost as smart as I am, congrats to you!! Really though, he is absolutely correct!!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-15 AT 05:54PM (MST)[p]Flying to scout is a very common practice in AK, and in many cases is the only practical way to scout considering planes are the only way to access the bulk of the game. In AK you can't hunt the same day you fly and I think that is a good rule.

As for the lower 48, it seems like there are more people dying in aerial crashes while looking for game or sheds, than there are trophy animals being killed as a result of aerial scouting. I know a few Utah guys who have found and killed some big bucks by utilizing chute planes as a method of scouting in vast desert country with low deer densities, but by and large I think there are safer more effective ways to scout in the lower 48. I know some guides who were flying for a gov tag buck in CO;they located a big buck in a high country basin but decided the buck wasn't big enough for the tag. Big mistake! Buck was killed on the archery hunt and scored 270+ inches and was 37 inches wide. An absolute Giant. Apparently the aerial view of the buck was misleading. I think being able to view an animal from the ground for several minutes, or several hours while they feed on the edge of the timber is much more effective scouting method. As long as it's legal, the ethics debate is really a meaningless war of opinions, since ethics is, and always will be an individual matter.

Bottom line;If it's legal and a guy is willing to risk life and limb, and spend the money I see no problem as long as they abide by the waiting periods and laws pertaining to aerial scouting. Seems to me, flying at high speeds just above the ground is a recipe for disaster, and highly in effective, but there again I don't scout from the air so my two cents is probably another worthless opinion.
 
Spot on Founder....

It's a common practice here where I am in NM ,and we have a so called 48 hr. no fly before the hunt clause....I call it herding!Done anytime in season.
 
A little story....I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

Where I live in northern CA I used to love to steelhead fish from about Dec.15th to March 31st. The daily bag limit was 3 fish/day. I did that for 30 years or longer, and everything was fine. Steelhead numbers remained high.

Then one day some guy from Oregon brought a drift boat to Eel River and started knocking them dead. It didn't take long and everyone and their brother had a drift boat. With a drift boat you can cover every inch of holding water for the entire length of the river. Work a Wee Wart or a Hot Shot back and forth until the fish get angry and strike it. Very little fishing skill involved, just rowing skills. I know one guide who killed over 300 steelhead in one year alone. There were at least a dozen guides and many dozens more private boats.

The Fish & Game turned a blind eye and kept the limit 3 fish/day.

Eventually the fishing slowed way down (after about year 10) and guys started crying about there being no fish. Fish & Game finally woke up and placed an emergency "no take" law into affect. Too late, Charlie. It's been that way ever since, about 15 years now.

I complained about it back then, and you know what? Guys said I had penis envy and if I couldn't afford a boat, tough sh!t.

You need to make laws right now to protect our traditions and our animals. Don't wait until it's too late Charlie!

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
Penis envy. Two of the dumbest words of all time. I should have used something more appropriate. Anyway eel, rumor at Lazios is that you are pretty well endowed. That's what the waitress told me.
 
Great post Eel.

I honestly think basicly it's already too late for mule deer, while scouting from the air has only resulted in killing some of the biggest trophy animals in some areas so far. The problem is l don't believe The rest of the high technology stuff will get addressed.

It's just like most of the commercial fisheries in the world, despite the yearly increasing of technology and fishing pressure, catch rates just continue to decline.

Someone on here posted that B and C says mule deer entries have been declining overall, and that's despite continued and constantly increasing pressure on trophies.
 
Eelgrass nailed it!!

At present, "we" as hunters are in charge of the wild game that we hunt in these Western States. That can change if we prove, to the general public, that "hunters" are NOT good stewards of the resource.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
YBO, LOL! Lazio's shut down some time back. They kept the restaurant but moved it up town. It's called the Sea Grill now. The last time I ate there was when RELH and his lovely wife came for a visit.

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
So?

Was it really all the Drift Boats taking the Salmon?

Or was it a Bigger problem nobody noticed like Commercial Fishermen Slaying them elsewhere?

Guess it doesn't matter!

When they're gone they're gone!

States & Game & Fish Agencies will do anything for a Buck!

And I'm not talkin a Buck Salmon!

What a Shame when a resource has been diminished until it has to be Closed!

Here in TARDville they're Pro's at it!






[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
Excellent comparison. We have a small ammount of "trophy" units in the state that are encompassed by "commercial fisherman" that will pretty much do anything to deliver for their "clients". If we are waiting for the DWR to notice anything it will be NEVER, according to them the deer herd is doing so great we can open late season hunts. I mean those buck to doe ratios are excellent. There are nearly 100 deer, and 20 are spike bucks, a 20/100 ratio marks the golden age of mule deer is here again!

I think the DWR needs a new logo, perhaps a brass pole?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
elkassassin, not salmon, steelhead. There hasn't been a commercial season on steelhead in my life time, if ever. In fact very little is known about steelhead when they are in the ocean. Nobody ever catches steelhead in the ocean while salmon fishing or netting.

The Fish & Game, in their infinite wisdom, said they didn't know what happened. Maybe the Russians were secretly netting them in the ocean. Of course, logging took most of the blame, but I don't want to go down that road here. It's kind of like mule deer, everybody is an expert.

The point was, in the spirit of this topic, that just because we figured out a simple easy way to locate and kill deer doesn't mean we should. It's a matter of principal. Hunting and fishing sometimes should be hard and a challenge. Big old bucks should be elusive and rare, IMO.

Elkassassin, Pretty Birdie should have to stick to spying on the neighbors.:)

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 

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