How accurate are deer counts?

[notdonhunting]

I won’t disagree that Cheat Grass is a Huge concern as is the spreading of CWD. However, the largest and likely most expensive study to date on mule deer is in the Wyoming Range paints a sad picture for baby fawn survival. Virtually no doe or fawn hunting has been allowed in the Wyoming Range since 1992. Think of that, the herds have been on a downward spiral since the bad winter of 1992-93 and virtually no doe or fawn hunting has taken place in almost 30 years so something is seriously amiss. What Dr. Kevin Monteith PhD and professor at UWyo who is a treasure trove of knowledge has discovered is its fawn recruitment that’s the problem. Most of the does are pregnant and having fawns but most of them are dying in the first 120 days. The culprit varies by year and can be broken into 3 categories. 1. Disease. 2. Predation. 3. Nutrition. In 2015, disease was the leading cause of death for collared fawns and accounted for 28% of all mortalities. The most prevalent disease, adenovirus hemorrhagic disease (AHD), is a viral disease that can cause internal hemorrhaging and pulmonary edema. In 2016 it was predation which was the major factor losing 30% of all fawns to predators. In 2017, 26% of fawn mortalities were the result of stillborns. Conversely, in 2018, only 1 of the 83 fawns collared was stillborn. 2017 was a horrible winter and the does were severely stressed. The does are pregnant and having twin fawns as the birth rate is about 1.22 fawns per doe but at the end of the 120 days we are down to just .6 fawns per doe. Remember these fawns are dying on Summer feed, some of the best nutrition nature has to offer. More fawns die over winter dripping from .6 to about .5 per doe on average winter kill years but about every 10 years Wyoming loses almost 100% of a years age class of fawns due to a bad winter. The key point here is we can’t grow deer herds when all the fawns are dying on summer pasture. What can we do as hunters? Keep contributing to Wildlife advocacy groups who spray cheatgrass and do habitat enhancement projects. Volunteer or contribute to water development projects. Hunt as much during Winter to keep predators low and buy as many cow elk tags as you can as cow elk are way above objective in almost every Western state and they are directly competing with deer for forage. Despite what you were taught, deer and elk and browsers vs. grazers. Dr. Monteith has personally studied and witnessed how the elk are eating deer forage. This is a fascinating study and worthwhile read for any Mule deer aficionado. https://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/WyomingRange_Winter1819.pdf

That is some good information, it is nice when we get some hard factual information.

 

[southernutahhunter]

Has anyone been out with a Biologist to see what numbers look like?

 

[slamdunk]

That is some good information, it is nice when we get some hard factual information.

Speaking of cheatgrass.
I was out on the Vernon unit on Saturday.
I'm not exactly sure when they did all the chaining projects out there, but it appeared to all be taken over with cheatgrass.
If that is the case, wouldn't chaining be counterproductive?

 

[jims]

I'm aware that this is a deer count data post but since cheatgrass has been brought up I thought I would add some cheatgrass information. I actually have deer count data using game cameras in cheatgrass infested vs immediately adjacent cheatgrass controlled sites. There is no comparison! Mule deer prefer not only the fresh, lush shrub growth but also spend time browsing the dramatic increase in native forbs and grass species (depending upon the conditions and the time of year). If you are a rancher or outfitter spraying cheatgrass is like food plots for whitetails! They love it! If you want to attract wildlife onto your property spray the cheatgrass and the deer and wildlife will come!

I have been monitoring impacts of cheatgrass on mule deer winter browse species (mountain mahogany, antelope bitterbrush, rabbitbrush, etc) and other native forb species for several years. We have compared cheatgrass vs immediately adjacent areas where cheatgrass has been controlled for multiple years. Originally I monitored longest leader growth, canopy cover of shrub species as well as cover, biomass of native forbs, grass, cheatgrass, etc.

This year we expanded the research to monitor annual leader growth/plant of cheatgrass invested vs immediately adjacently controlled shrub plants at several sites. I've noticed that not only is new growth approximately 1 1/2 x longer where cheatgrass is controlled but the leaves and stem growth is more robust. We soon discovered that shrub growth is a lot more involved and complicated than just monitoring longest leader lengths! This year we counted number of fresh shoots/plant. There were 2 to 3x shoots/plant where cheatgrass is controlled. Adding to this data we collected biomass data of fresh growth of leaves and stems.

Finally, we used the combination of all of these measurements (longest leader growth, # shoots/plant, and weight/leader) to determine total weight of fresh annual shrub growth/plant. These combined are what is available for mule deer to browse each year. There is no comparison when comparing overall production/shrub plants where dense cheatgrass has been controlled. It is truly amazing how much moisture cheatgrass robs from native species! As we all know, moisture is key for production and health of these species.

We plan to take winter browse data one step further by collecting fresh shrub leader growth stems and analyzing nutrition value. It's visually apparent that new shrub growth in dense cheatgrass stands is thin and woody with poor, woody growth. Nutrition data will add to the story. It is obvious that cheatgrass robs these shrubs of winter and early spring moisture and puts them in a stressed state. In dry years the impacts are even more apparent. Also, as mentioned in the mule deer foundation article and elsewhere cheatgrass impacts high intensity and more frequent wildfires that often burn so intense that they often kill many of these shrubs.

If anyone wants to view large-scale areas we have sprayed cheatgrass or wants additional information regarding cheatgrass and it's impacts on native species please contact me. I will be presenting some of this data at a conference later this spring. Hopefully some of this data will be published in journals soon!

 

[jims]

Slamdunk, there is a simple answer....chain plus spray the cheatgrass! It often takes several steps for areas to recover. If there are native remnant shrubs, forbs, and grass species in the area the results of the combo of chaining plus spraying cheatgrass ought to be amazing!

If the area is chained and cheatgrass shows up, the cheatgrass likely won't ever disappear...especially after disturbance. The cheatgrass will also make it a lot tougher for remnant species to return in areas chained. If there aren't many remnant species available it may take more time and work. I would be glad to look at photos and possibly help figure out a strategy. You are welcome to send me a PM.

 

[slamdunk]

I'm aware that this is a deer count data post but since cheatgrass has been brought up I thought I would add some cheatgrass information. I actually have deer count data using game cameras in cheatgrass infested vs immediately adjacent cheatgrass controlled sites. There is no comparison! Mule deer prefer not only the fresh, lush shrub growth but also spend time browsing the dramatic increase in native forbs and grass species (depending upon the conditions and the time of year). If you are a rancher or outfitter spraying cheatgrass is like food plots for whitetails! They love it! If you want to attract wildlife onto your property spray the cheatgrass and the deer and wildlife will come!

I have been monitoring impacts of cheatgrass on mule deer winter browse species (mountain mahogany, antelope bitterbrush, rabbitbrush, etc) and other native forb species for several years. We have compared cheatgrass vs immediately adjacent areas where cheatgrass has been controlled for multiple years. Originally I monitored longest leader growth, canopy cover of shrub species as well as cover, biomass of native forbs, grass, cheatgrass, etc.

This year we expanded the research to monitor annual leader growth/plant of cheatgrass invested vs immediately adjacently controlled shrub plants at several sites. I've noticed that not only is new growth approximately 1 1/2 x longer where cheatgrass is controlled but the leaves and stem growth is more robust. We soon discovered that shrub growth is a lot more involved and complicated than just monitoring longest leader lengths! This year we counted number of fresh shoots/plant. There were 2 to 3x shoots/plant where cheatgrass is controlled. Adding to this data we collected biomass data of fresh growth of leaves and stems.

Finally, we used the combination of all of these measurements (longest leader growth, # shoots/plant, and weight/leader) to determine total weight of fresh annual shrub growth/plant. These combined are what is available for mule deer to browse each year. There is no comparison when comparing overall production/shrub plants where dense cheatgrass has been controlled. It is truly amazing how much moisture cheatgrass robs from native species! As we all know, moisture is key for production and health of these species.

We plan to take winter browse data one step further by collecting fresh shrub leader growth stems and analyzing nutrition value. It's visually apparent that new shrub growth in dense cheatgrass stands is thin and woody with poor, woody growth. Nutrition data will add to the story. It is obvious that cheatgrass robs these shrubs of winter and early spring moisture and puts them in a stressed state. In dry years the impacts are even more apparent. Also, as mentioned in the mule deer foundation article and elsewhere cheatgrass impacts high intensity and more frequent wildfires that often burn so intense that they often kill many of these shrubs.

If anyone wants to view large-scale areas we have sprayed cheatgrass or wants additional information regarding cheatgrass and it's impacts on native species please contact me. I will be presenting some of this data at a conference later this spring. Hopefully some of this data will be published in journals soon!

Excellent feedback, much respect ?

 

[jims]

No problem! I sure wish you lived closer so you could view some of our large scale work! As you can tell I am totally excited about our positive results and the implications it could have on mule deer throughout the Western US!

 

[slamdunk]

No problem! I sure wish you lived closer so you could view some of our large scale work! As you can tell I am totally excited about our positive results and the implications it could have on mule deer throughout the Western US!

I love seeing what the 106reforest guys are doing, it's incredible work.

I wish I could get involved into this somehow.

 

[jims]

Let me know if I can help. I work closely with professors and other researchers and managers across the Western US. Corey Ransom at Utah State University has conducted cheatgrass, ventenata, and medusahead research in Utah.

 

[Bluehair]

Speaking of cheatgrass.
I was out on the Vernon unit on Saturday.
I'm not exactly sure when they did all the chaining projects out there, but it appeared to all be taken over with cheatgrass.
If that is the case, wouldn't chaining be counterproductive?

Not to hijack, but how long ago was it chained who’s land was it (usfs,blm)? I didn’t know we still chained public lands.

If the land is chained, then I believe the beneficiary should pay to reclaim it. That’s standard practice in industry. Where I’m familiar with chaining, it was the water agencies.

 

[slamdunk]

Not to hijack, but how long ago was it chained who’s land was it (usfs,blm)? I didn’t know we still chained public lands.

If the land is chained, then I believe the beneficiary should pay to reclaim it. That’s standard practice in industry.

I'm hoping someone can chime in to answer your questions, I am not sure.
I believe it's all BLM out there, and I have no knowledge of when the work was done, but there is definitely a lot of it.

 

[Packout]

Utah's Watershed Restoration Initiative. https://wri.utah.gov/wri/map/map.html
Go to the map, zoom in on the area you want to know about, and all the info is there.

 

[elkassassin]

When I Was Young!

They Were CHAINING/RAILING Left & Right!

"""This Is Gonna Improve Wildlife & Habitat!"""

Well!

That Was A Costly F'N Mistake!

 

[3200]

Not to hijack, but how long ago was it chained who’s land was it (usfs,blm)? I didn’t know we still chained public lands.

If the land is chained, then I believe the beneficiary should pay to reclaim it. That’s standard practice in industry. Where I’m familiar with chaining, it was the water agencies.

Most was donenin the ladt couple of years. While there is a bunch of BLM land there is also a ton of private. Some of the chaining/grinding is on private ground (in fact alot) paid for by the land owners.

 

[southernutahhunter]

No one wants to talk deer numbers because they all know the numbers are in the tank. You can’t hunt animals from August to January and expect them to be in good shape over the winter months. You can’t hand out landowner and depredation doe permits over the past two decades like they are candy and then think there will still be doe. Bottom line you don’t have bucks or doe because of many things. A great winter with adequate snow is not going to make it all better. So the question is what has to be done right now to try and bring the numbers back?

 

[jims]

I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but back in the 80's Colo was faced with this same problem. After several horrible winters, drought, etc the deer herd was in horrible shape. Most units didn't have many bucks and the few that existed were forked horns.

Colo stepped up to the plate and totally switched over to all draw limited units. It was tough because hunters were used to buying over the counter deer tags and hunting every year. In only 5 years time things dramatically changed for the better. Not only could the CPW manage herd numbers but also hunting pressure. Within a short period of time Colo became the mecca for B&C muley bucks across the Western US. If you don't believe me, take a look at the B&C listings before and after Colo went to total limited tags.

As mentioned many times above, Utah has to step up to the plate and limit doe and buck numbers or nothing will change. Unfortunately this may come at a cost. Hunters may not be able to hunt and fill their freezer as often. Are Utah hunters and the Utah DNR willing to step up to the plate to do this? Colo has shown that this is possible in only a short period of time!

 

[southernutahhunter]

I agree Jim something has to be done now. Utah has went to the smaller units to better manage, now they better step up and do it or they won’t have any deer.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

How F'N Quick People Forget!

Maybe Niller,grizzly,hawkeye and others Can Chime In & Tell us All How That Micro-Managing BS Plan has worked out!

I agree Jim something has to be done now. Utah has went to the smaller units to better manage, now they better step up and do it or they won’t have any deer.

 

[jims]

We got 540 acres of cheatgrass on prime deer and elk winter range sprayed today. If the weather cooperates we should get another 500+ acres sprayed tomorrow. I can’t wait to see it this spring. The deer, elk, and other wildlife are going to love it!

 

[elkassassin]

You Want Me To Re-Post HELL-RIGHT?

No one wants to talk deer numbers because they all know the numbers are in the tank. You can’t hunt animals from August to January and expect them to be in good shape over the winter months. You can’t hand out landowner and depredation doe permits over the past two decades like they are candy and then think there will still be doe. Bottom line you don’t have bucks or doe because of many things. A great winter with adequate snow is not going to make it all better. So the question is what has to be done right now to try and bring the numbers back?

 

[Bluehair]

Are all those extra saddle tanks av fuel?

 

[jims]

Yep it's fuel for the copter. They got over 500 acres sprayed today by noon! They got an early start with the warm temps. I think it was close to 70 today with hardly any wind. Here’s a few photos

 

[notdonhunting]

I went out the other evening in Central Utah on some Deer winter range that is on the Manti unit and I was pleasantly surprised.
I saw more than 100 head in about a four mile drive. I would say 60 percent was fawns.
Of the 40 or so doe I would say probably 15 was last year fawns, most of the 25 or so mature doe was carrying 2 fawns and several had 3 fawns.
I saw 15 bucks of which 5 mature bucks and 2 of them I would say was older than 5 years of age.
Compared to yhe last 10 plus years I would say that is a vast improvement.
Maybe I just got lucky and all the deer from the Manti unit was in that 4 mile stretch but it was nice evening ride.