How to bring does back

Dconcrete

Active Member
Messages
228
Let’s hear everyone’s ideas about how to bring does back and how to keep more fawns alive.

This thread is brought to you by slam dunk. He asked for the thread, and I’ll deliver. I’ll throw out a few of my thoughts, and slam can either confirm, or deny them since he works with Mdf.

Fawns are dying. This isn’t up for debate. But the how’s and why’s may be.

Drought? How much does that affect them? It can affect the nutrition from mothers milk. It can affect how healthy they are born.

Predators. Bears, and coyotes and lions. They’ll factor in.

Vehicles? Certainly takes fawns out as well.

Here’s the problem with the loss of habitat argument. I feel like the deer in the north are fairing far better than those in the south. The southern habitat has a lot more to offer as far as winter and fawning grounds.

Look at the units down south and you’ll see a lot less fawns.

Look at deer in alpine city, and they have twins. Alpine not affected by the drought as much as southern Utah.

How about elk? A lot of studies show they do and lots of studies show they don’t affect deer.

On the Parker this year, I had a group of 12 doe antelope. One had a fawn. Elk calves seem to be living. Deer and antelope fawns not so much.

Slam, outside of what I just named, what else has the MDF pointed their fingers at?
 
I also forgot to mention fences. That’ll take some fawns out as well. And then golden eagles. I am not sure on the Eagle part
 
I have heard that multiple fawns were lost in the sample study due to fawns falling into badger holes.

Half of the Monroe did intense coyote removal the other half just left alone. Fawn survival in predator controlled half jumped to 90 per 100. In the other half it stayed around 20-30. No question that predator control would have a positive impact. However you are also battling those that don't want to see the predators eliminated. Also on the Monroe, they moved the cougar objective to 30. First couple of weeks 30 cats were killed. The sportsmen and others asked for more tags issued. The local biologist pushed back and said that 30 had killed most of the cats on the unit. 29 more tags were still issued on an emergency basis. Biologist stated that there was no way even 29 cats left on the unit. Well the other 29 tags were also filled in less than a month. 60 cats off that unit in less than 2 months in the same season. Hell even if they are killing only 25 deer a year per cat (which is a lowball number) that equals 1475 deer per year lost on that unit. I would dare bet that most years that unit is not having 1475 fawn care over. Utah is also seeing more bears than in the past...it all ads up.
 
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I have heard that multiple fawns were lost in the sample study due to fawns falling into badger holes.

Half of the Monroe did intense coyote removal the other half just left alone. Fawn survival in predator controlled half jumped to 90 per 100. In the other half it stayed around 20-30. No question that predator control would have a positive impact. However you are also battling those that don't want to see the predators eliminated. Also on the Monroe, they moved the cougar objective to 30. First couple of weeks 30 cats were killed. The sportsmen and others asked for more tags issued. The local biologist pushed back and said that 30 had killed most of the cats on the unit. 29 more tags were still issued. Biologist stated that there was no way even 29 cats left on the unit. Well the other 29 tags were also filled in less than a month. 60 cats off that unit. Hell even if they are killing only 25 deer a year per cat (which is a lowball number) that equals 1475 deer per year lost on that unit. I would dare bet that most years that unit is not having 1475 fawn care over. Utah is also seeing more bears than in the past...it all ads up.
Predator control is a must. One thing to note, is that bears will find and eat the lion kills. The lions will then go find another meal.
All of the points you've made are valid and add to lower deer numbers.
 
Get rid of bait because lions, tigers, and bears hide in the bushes and jump out on unsuspecting does and fawns. Rahhhhr! (It scares them to death) quicker than a 338 Lapua slug would kill them. Also get rid of trail cameras because the flash blinds the doe, she then runs full bore into a tree branch snapping her neck instantly, killing her quicker than a 338 Lapua slug. Also apple seeds have been known to give does explosive diahreah, which then dehydrates the doe killing her quicker than a 338 Lapua slug.....Those would be my top priorities well before anything else that has been mentioned. Very logical.
 
I have heard that multiple fawns were lost in the sample study due to fawns falling into badger holes.

Half of the Monroe did intense coyote removal the other half just left alone. Fawn survival in predator controlled half jumped to 90 per 100. In the other half it stayed around 20-30. No question that predator control would have a positive impact. However you are also battling those that don't want to see the predators eliminated. Also on the Monroe, they moved the cougar objective to 30. First couple of weeks 30 cats were killed. The sportsmen and others asked for more tags issued. The local biologist pushed back and said that 30 had killed most of the cats on the unit. 29 more tags were still issued on an emergency basis. Biologist stated that there was no way even 29 cats left on the unit. Well the other 29 tags were also filled in less than a month. 60 cats off that unit in less than 2 months in the same season. Hell even if they are killing only 25 deer a year per cat (which is a lowball number) that equals 1475 deer per year lost on that unit. I would dare bet that most years that unit is not having 1475 fawn care over. Utah is also seeing more bears than in the past...it all ads up.
What year were that many cats taken off there?
 
 
I have heard that multiple fawns were lost in the sample study due to fawns falling into badger holes.

Half of the Monroe did intense coyote removal the other half just left alone. Fawn survival in predator controlled half jumped to 90 per 100. In the other half it stayed around 20-30. No question that predator control would have a positive impact. However you are also battling those that don't want to see the predators eliminated. Also on the Monroe, they moved the cougar objective to 30. First couple of weeks 30 cats were killed. The sportsmen and others asked for more tags issued. The local biologist pushed back and said that 30 had killed most of the cats on the unit. 29 more tags were still issued on an emergency basis. Biologist stated that there was no way even 29 cats left on the unit. Well the other 29 tags were also filled in less than a month. 60 cats off that unit in less than 2 months in the same season. Hell even if they are killing only 25 deer a year per cat (which is a lowball number) that equals 1475 deer per year lost on that unit. I would dare bet that most years that unit is not having 1475 fawn care over. Utah is also seeing more bears than in the past...it all ads up.
Your numbers from the Monroe are absolutely wrong. Here is the graph from the thesis on the study. Survival went from around 58% when not treated, to around 75% when coyotes had been killed for two years. Did it help, yes. Did it go from 20-30 to 90-100? Absolutely not.

E0B138C8-EFF7-42E7-9FA3-CB940D77F272.png
 
Your numbers from the Monroe are absolutely wrong. Here is the graph from the thesis on the study. Survival went from around 58% when not treated, to around 75% when coyotes had been killed for two years. Did it help, yes. Did it go from 20-30 to 90-100? Absolutely not.

View attachment 64258
I believe that is the overall numbers for the unit. So the average would be correct. However my understanding talking with the biologist is the half treated significantly bump that average. While the untreated half of the unit pulled it back.
 
We can't control drought and mother nature for the most part, with the exception of building guzzlers, etc. but we absolutely can control predators, build fences to prevent roadkill, and improve habitat and feed on winter and summer ranges.

My vote is the DWR puts a whole lot more energy in doing these very specific things before they start throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks like banning trail cameras, etc. I think many sportsmen, myself included, are also game to pitch in and help with controlling predators, building fence, etc.

Let's git'r done!!!
 
Excellent post, exactly what we need to discuss, thank you Dconcrete!

You stated things very well and I agree.
I especially agree with your statement about loss of winter range, thats a northern issue, central and southern aren't nearly as affected.
Drought and poor habitat are an issue there.
Regardless of how many conservation projects happen there, if there's no water, it's a failure.

Predators and highway mortality are giant factors.
More cars, faster cars equal disaster.
Coyotes kill far more deer than I believe we even can fathom.
Without 1080 poison helping keep numbers down, they have exploded in every state and not only kill fawns, they stress does who in turn abort fawns.

And deperdation hunts on farm lands killing hundreds of does, doesn't help the already struggling numbers.
I personally know a farmer who slaughterd over a hundred deer off his property on the Boulder unit last winter.
Can we even fathom the impact on losing probably 80 pregnant does?

High fences and crossing projects are underway all over, these are costly but productive.

So many factors, so much work to do and a hell of a lot of patience.
 
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Excellent post, exactly what we need to discuss, thank you Dconcrete!

You stated things very well and I agree.
I especially agree with your statement about loss of winter range, thats a northern issue, central and southern aren't nearly as affected.
Drought and poor habitat are an issue there.
Regardless of how many conservation projects happen there, if there's no water, it's a failure.

Predators and highway mortality are giant factors.
More cars, faster cars equal disaster.
Coyotes kill far more deer than I believe we even can fathom.
Without 1080 poison helping keep numbers down, they have exploded in every state and not only kill fawns, they stress does who in turn abort fawns.

And deperdation hunts on farm lands killing hundreds of does, doesn't help the already struggling numbers.
I personally know a farmer who slaughterd over a hundred deer off his property on the Boulder unit last winter.
Can we even fathom the impact on losing probably 80 pregnant does?

High fences and crossing projects are underway all over, these are costly but productive.

So many factors, so much work to do and a hell of a lot of patience.
Slam,
We literally crucify and blow up the internet with the name of individuals who poach one single buck (which according to some does very little to harm the herd). Yet we have farmers that are shooting 100 does in a single year and we never call them out by name or throw a fit. I don't doubt for a minute that there are other places than the Boulder that is happening and I don't doubt for a minute that there are others besides Mac doing it. Maybe the Internet a groups like MDF should be going directly after these individuals. I know that will stir the whole landowner rights crowd but lets be honest that some of these landowners are the enemy of our resource. Not all but I would also challenge those landowners to also stand with sportsmen and throw a fit about those abusing the system and destroying the resource.
 
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Slam,
We literally crucify and blow up the internet with the name of individuals who poach one single buck (which according to some does very little to harm the herd). Yet we have farmers that are shooting 100 does in a single year and we never call them out by name or throw a fit. I don't doubt for a minute that there are other places than the Boulder that is happening and I don't doubt for a minute that there are others besides Mac Brown doing it. Maybe the Internet a groups like MDF should be going directly after these individuals. I know that will stir the whole landowner rights crowd but lets be honest that some of these landowners are the enemy of our resource. Not all but I would also challenge those landowners to also stand with sportsmen and throw a fit about those abusing the system and destroying the resource.
In this awful incident, the Division was notified by the rancher several times and he claims they did nothing, so he took care of it himself.
It's absolutely sickening.
 
In this awful incident, the Division was notified by the rancher several times and he claims they did nothing, so he took care of it himself.
It's absolutely sickening.
Slam,
I would also encourage that MDF or sportsmen reach out to help fence or come up with a solution to prevent the shooting of does. We shouldn't put it all on the landowners if we want to protect the resource. I see both sides of the coin on this one. Overall we need accountability and partnership!
 
Agreed-it would be nice if sportsmen and the DWR put their energy into the things that mattered, but I guess it is no different than society really.

People and government freak out about Covid but don’t give a damn or do anything about obesity, alcoholism, opioid epidemic, mental health issues, etc etc.
 
We can't control drought and mother nature for the most part, with the exception of building guzzlers, etc. but we absolutely can control predators, build fences to prevent roadkill, and improve habitat and feed on winter and summer ranges.

My vote is the DWR puts a whole lot more energy in doing these very specific things before they start throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks like banning trail cameras, etc. I think many sportsmen, myself included, are also game to pitch in and help with controlling predators, building fence, etc.

Let's git'r done!!!
There are a lot of conservation projects through MDF all spring, summer and fall you can volunteer for and you don't even need to be a member.
 
Homer,
That is actually from those checking the collared fawns. I was surprised as well but that was a notable cause.
I'd be more inclined to believe the badgers drag them home.....I've never looked at a badger hole and thought it looked like a tiger trap.....
 
I'd be more inclined to believe the badgers drag them home.....I've never looked at a badger hole and thought it looked like a tiger trap.....
Maybe the biologist in charge of the study just had a really bad experience with a badger as a young child and has worked a life time to be in a position to paint badgers in a poor light.
 
It is nice to see doe deer discussed. The loss of viable winter range in North Utah is an issue. I-15 cutting off migration across the State.
It seems that the stale ranges are the biggest driver with lack of deer herd growth. There are thousands of acres of winter range that is undeveloped and might look to us like great habitat, but it is not. It is full of old, unproductive plants. Lots of Juniper deserts- old growth blankets of trees that don't allow other plants to thrive. Sage flats that are old. Loss of forbes due to habitat degradation.

Look at the Henry Mtns.- they have those big fires in the late 1990s, early 2000s. Explosion of deer followed. Now a couple decades later the quality of the range has diminished due to drought and age of plants- we've lost half the deer and no doe tags.
Look at the Book Cliffs- large fires in the late 1990s, early 2000s and high increase of deer after. Again, a couple decades later and the range has diminished and we've lost half the deer and no doe tags.
We see similar events on the Vernon, Oquirrh/Stansbury, Oak Cr, Manti, Wasatch, Nebo, Beaver, Box Elder. etc. Large fires, deer growth, time passes and then the deer fall off.

Elk and cattle do better longer- as the grasses come into play and choke out the forbes.

And it stands to reason that as the deer thrive after a fire/change in the landscape, then predator numbers will increase. Seems there should be a good time to control predators ahead of the down trend in deer numbers when the habitat degrades. But if the habitat is degrading, are we able to continue to support large numbers of deer?

I heard an old biologist tell a Wildlife Board member something that makes sense to me. The Board member said he can drive to Salt Lake from Blanding and he sees untouched winter ranges that look the same as when he was a kid, except there are less deer now. The biologist said- Yes, but it is all stale. It is old. It doesn't produce palatable forage of good nutrition.

I have a book called "Productivity of mule deer on the La Sal and Henry Mountains of Utah". It is about a study from the late 1960s to look at how to grow deer herds. They were concerned with the same issues we face today. Interesting side note- there were 16,162 sheep and an unknown number of cattle on the Henry Mtns in 1937. Followed by an explosion in mule deer during the 1940s-50s, such an increase that they bull dozed roads into road less areas to get the public access to hunt. 16,000 sheep plus cattle would be similar to a fire.....

Pray for fires, then rain, and control the predators on the backend of the cycle.
 
The studies in N Utah are showing TARGETED coyote killing. Basically close to start of fawn season.

Coyotes have a unique way of replenishment, and expansion when numbers get low.

As to the ranchers/farmers.

Ya, they get critters on their ground. We need to push as a state, and perhaps the west. If you kill animals off your ground in the winter, but run livestock on public, that lease needs to be taken. I know several dudes with MTN permits, who feed off public, then ***** about the public's animals in their ground. They then demand top dollar in compensation.

WE as taxpayers in the State, do subsidize ranchers/farmers a ton. If they take the cheese, it's not unfair to include stipulations. Those being NOT wiping out deer. Or in short, the cost of all those pivot lines, and water projects WE paid for, is letting deer feed off your dormant hay field.

Yes there is real damage done to fences and sprinkler lines. They should be compensated.

But let's compare that to the damage done to creeks, rivers, ponds, roads, etc, etc done to public land. Does the rancher scratch us a check?

When we see cows/sheep destroying areas, should we shoot 100 or so?

Any dickhead that shoots a hundred deer, needs his face on the news, and social media. He's a tool. And I doubt highly, it's his first time
 
Excellent post, exactly what we need to discuss, thank you Dconcrete!

You stated things very well and I agree.
I especially agree with your statement about loss of winter range, thats a northern issue, central and southern aren't nearly as affected.
Drought and poor habitat are an issue there.
Regardless of how many conservation projects happen there, if there's no water, it's a failure.

Predators and highway mortality are giant factors.
More cars, faster cars equal disaster.
Coyotes kill far more deer than I believe we even can fathom.
Without 1080 poison helping keep numbers down, they have exploded in every state and not only kill fawns, they stress does who in turn abort fawns.

And deperdation hunts on farm lands killing hundreds of does, doesn't help the already struggling numbers.
I personally know a farmer who slaughterd over a hundred deer off his property on the Boulder unit last winter.
Can we even fathom the impact on losing probably 80 pregnant does?

High fences and crossing projects are underway all over, these are costly but productive.

So many factors, so much work to do and a hell of a lot of patience.
Spot on SLAM that is everything you need to know about what is going on with our deer herds….
I almost forgot and there is accurate data to back it up with no guessing.
 
Eagles taking fawns is pretty cool.
I have witnessed that myself up on Ensign Ranches when I was guiding a client.

Extremely quiet morning, so quiet you could hear your own ears buzzing.
Glassing around at numerous deer, then all the sudden there was this strange, loud sound up in the sky close by. We looked at each other and started scouring the skies for whatever this UFO was. Then we spotted this elongated brown missile about to hit the ground.
As we watched in disbelief and total confusion, it slammed into a fawn like a scud missile completely knocking the fawn off it's feet and began ferociously attacking it until the fawn expired. It was insane!!!
 
I have witnessed that myself up on Ensign Ranches when I was guiding a client.

Extremely quiet morning, so quiet you could hear your own ears buzzing.
Glassing around at number deer, then all the sudden there was this strange, loud sound up in the sky close by. We looked at each other and started scouring the skies for whatever this UFO was. Then we spotted this elongated brown missile about to hit the ground.
As we watched in disbelief and total confusion, it slammed into a fawn like a scud missile completely knocking the fawn off it's feet and began ferociously attacking it until the fawn expired. It was insane!!!


We watch bald eagles grab cripples in the swamp this time of year. Those big birds are awesome to watch.
 
HOSS, I love the idea about ranchers and farmers who use public lands to feed and then bit(h about deer or elk on their own lands in winter. This needs to stop. Or, we need to find out how often this is happening and then come up with a solution, but this is 100% not right.
 
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Holy smokes there are a lot of posts in regard to the dwindling mule deer populations. I've included a link to a publication with deer guidelines for just about every region in the Western US. It is the most complete set of topics compiled. If you have a question in regard to your particular region I'm pretty sure it can be answered in these publications!

 
I bet if someone did a gramma request for
How many hours biologist spend hazing wildlife out of fields
How many animals the DWR biologist kill
How many animals landowners kill after a 72 hour notice
How many depredation tags are issued
How much is spent on fencing haystacks
How many checks are issued for damage payments

It would provide a lot of motivation and leverage to come up with a different system that still provides assistance to landowners but is less detrimental to the wildlife herds and sportsmen.
 
I bet if someone did a gramma request for
How many hours biologist spend hazing wildlife out of fields
How many animals the DWR biologist kill
How many animals landowners kill after a 72 hour notice
How many depredation tags are issued
How much is spent on fencing haystacks
How many checks are issued for damage payments

It would provide a lot of motivation and leverage to come up with a different system that still provides assistance to landowners but is less detrimental to the wildlife herds and sportsmen.
I am actually going to look into the possibility of the MDF and or other conservation groups willingness to help combat these deperdation killings by ranchers through physical efforts and or monetarily.
I'll put this on my "To Do" list and see what I can drum up, or at least educate myself of why they aren't if this issue has already been addressed.
 
I bet if someone did a gramma request for
How many hours biologist spend hazing wildlife out of fields
How many animals the DWR biologist kill
How many animals landowners kill after a 72 hour notice
How many depredation tags are issued
How much is spent on fencing haystacks
How many checks are issued for damage payments

It would provide a lot of motivation and leverage to come up with a different system that still provides assistance to landowners but is less detrimental to the wildlife herds and sportsmen.
Did you listen to the compensation hearing in the last part of the WB meeting?

Quite the cluster.
 
Slam, I would also like to know (as mentioned before about Boulder situation) how many cattle/sheep were on the mountain of his with his grazing permits, and how much he paid for them, VS how many deer feed off his dormant hay fields or hay stacks and how much he actually lost in hay? And also find out if he got his animals off the mountain by the date required. I bet he did not.

On the Wasatch where we hunt, there are cattle on the mountain all year long. I see them up in the waters well into November. And this year I was up watching elk in Feb from the roads and saw several cattle on the ridge tops where the elk were. It was public land where they were at. So, it would be interesting to see the results.
 
I’ve reached out to you personally and offered to help/volunteer. The offer still stands
Thank you.
I'll start posting projects again on this site since I have recently had some interest lately.
You can also follow the MDF social media pages where the announcements are made.
 
Your numbers from the Monroe are absolutely wrong. Here is the graph from the thesis on the study. Survival went from around 58% when not treated, to around 75% when coyotes had been killed for two years. Did it help, yes. Did it go from 20-30 to 90-100? Absolutely not.

View attachment 64258

Post the raw data the graph was generated from before stating somebody's posted number doesn't represent the percent increase or decrease.
 
Post the raw data the graph was generated from before stating somebody's posted number doesn't represent the percent increase or decrease.
The posted number is still wrong, raw data or graph. The graph was made from the raw data, thus it shows that the survival was not what was stated.
 
Why is it the public that keeps getting the shaft by the ag producers? The public has to tolerate their private livestock on public land, while they dictate the numbers of wildlife that their animals have to compete with in the summer. Then in the winter, they get to dictate how much public wildlife gets to utilize their private land to survive on. There’s a whole lot of take and if they had it their way, ZERO give. Entitled mountain maggot ranchers are one of the biggest issues public wildlife faces. Until they get put back into their place, expect numbers to continue to decline.
 
The posted number is still wrong, raw data or graph. The graph was made from the raw data, thus it shows that the survival was not what was stated.

That's what I said, the graph was generated from the raw data. I want to see the increase in number, not the percent it changed by.
 
Why is it the public that keeps getting the shaft by the ag producers? The public has to tolerate their private livestock on public land, while they dictate the numbers of wildlife that their animals have to compete with in the summer. Then in the winter, they get to dictate how much public wildlife gets to utilize their private land to survive on. There’s a whole lot of take and if they had it their way, ZERO give. Entitled mountain maggot ranchers are one of the biggest issues public wildlife faces. Until they get put back into their place, expect numbers to continue to decline.
 
The posted number is still wrong, raw data or graph. The graph was made from the raw data, thus it shows that the survival was not what was stated.
The number is the overall unit number, no split shown on the areas with predator control focus compared to the areas with none. Funny thing with numbers, they are easy to manipulate with presented.
 
The number is the overall unit number, no split shown on the areas with predator control focus compared to the areas with none. Funny thing with numbers, they are easy to manipulate with presented.
I don't think you understand the study structure or the graph. There were the two units, for the first two years they did predator control on one unit, then the next two years they switched and did predator control on the other unit and stopped on the first unit. So the first bar in the graph is the average fawn survival when there was no predator treatment of both units. Then The second bar is when there had been one year of predator treatment done and the third bar is when there had been two years of predator treatment. It is all averaged to help control for the variability between the two units to try and more specifically show what impact it had overall and not just in one specific place. No matter what way you look at it raw data or not, there was never 20% fawn survival and there was never 90% fawn survival in any given year on any unit.
 
I don't think you understand the study structure or the graph. There were the two units, for the first two years they did predator control on one unit, then the next two years they switched and did predator control on the other unit and stopped on the first unit. So the first bar in the graph is the average fawn survival when there was no predator treatment of both units. Then The second bar is when there had been one year of predator treatment done and the third bar is when there had been two years of predator treatment. It is all averaged to help control for the variability between the two units to try and more specifically show what impact it had overall and not just in one specific place. No matter what way you look at it raw data or not, there was never 20% fawn survival and there was never 90% fawn survival in any given year on any unit.

Is your bar chart showing the data between the two units combined and averaged? It can't be the same for both units...
 
It is well documented the explosion of muley deer in the 1950s and 1960s was partially because of overgrazing by livestock.
The studies in N Utah are showing TARGETED coyote killing. Basically close to start of fawn season.

Coyotes have a unique way of replenishment, and expansion when numbers get low.

As to the ranchers/farmers.

Ya, they get critters on their ground. We need to push as a state, and perhaps the west. If you kill animals off your ground in the winter, but run livestock on public, that lease needs to be taken. I know several dudes with MTN permits, who feed off public, then ***** about the public's animals in their ground. They then demand top dollar in compensation.

WE as taxpayers in the State, do subsidize ranchers/farmers a ton. If they take the cheese, it's not unfair to include stipulations. Those being NOT wiping out deer. Or in short, the cost of all those pivot lines, and water projects WE paid for, is letting deer feed off your dormant hay field.

Yes there is real damage done to fences and sprinkler lines. They should be compensated.

But let's compare that to the damage done to creeks, rivers, ponds, roads, etc, etc done to public land. Does the rancher scratch us a check?

When we see cows/sheep destroying areas, should we shoot 100 or so?

Any dickhead that shoots a hundred deer, needs his face on the news, and social media. He's a tool. And I doubt highly, it's his first time
Most summer grazing is done on Federal property, USFS and BLM.
The USFS and the BLM do not care what goes on during the winter on private property.
Why is it the public that keeps getting the shaft by the ag producers? The public has to tolerate their private livestock on public land, while they dictate the numbers of wildlife that their animals have to compete with in the summer. Then in the winter, they get to dictate how much public wildlife gets to utilize their private land to survive on. There’s a whole lot of take and if they had it their way, ZERO give. Entitled mountain maggot ranchers are one of the biggest issues public wildlife faces. Until they get put back into their place, expect numbers to continue to decline.
The livestock owner works with the USFS or BLM on the number of livestock that will be on the summer range
The livestock owner will work with the DWR on how many deer or elk will be on his private property.
 
Ya I agree, thats the point.

Those leases make it possible for many of those ranchers to grow crops, that aren't solely to feed their livestock. If alltheir land was fed off like the MTN is, there wouldn't be near the magnet for wildlife.
 
I agree that predators are a major problem when it comes to fawn survival. Maybe the DWR should offer better incentives for predator hunters and trappers. Plus up bear and cougar permits.

I would also support eliminating antlerless deer tags.

I even agree with significantly reducing tags for general season and LE deer for the next 5 years or longer.
 
I have read at least a couple hundred posts the last few days about trail cameras and our declining deer herds. Lets face it guys, we are victims of technology. It might be trail cams, high powered optics, long range weapons, more and faster automobiles ect. The trail cam ban may be a step in the right direction but it's not even the tip of the iceberg. Just how many more deer are killed because of cameras is obviously an unknown. I doubt it is a very big number. I'm sure they have a lot more to do with quality rather than quantity. If we ever expect our herds to recover I think we need to continue to fight the technology problems but put a lot of effort into things like predator control, building highway fences, controling cheat grass ect. I recently drove from Ogden to St George(325) miles which is almost completely deer fenced and never saw a dead deer. Two days later I drove from Ogden to Coalville (about 45 miles) and saw 4 dead deer on the highway. You guys gotta cut me a little slack for thinking like I do. I'm in my late 80s and most of my hunting experiences were in the good old days. You saddled up, grabbed the old winchester and a pocket knife and went out and shot a decent buck. We had never heard of B&C or INCHES. I pretty much wound it up with a 270 with a 3x9 scope and a pair of 10 power binos. Don't ever remember attempting a 300 yard shot. Also don't remember wounding and not recovering but one deer in 65 plus years. I guess I'm kinda tough on predators. I probably spent around 50 years on the mountain before I saw my first mountain lion. In about the last 20 years I have seen several. It is debateable just how many deer a mature cat kills in a year but I am sure it's a helluva lot more than a few trail cams help kill. If I could offer one bit of advice to todays hunters it would be don't sit on your damned computer complaining about how things are today. Get off your but and get involved. You are the ones that know where the problems are. Help fix them.
 
Here’s my list of what’s killing deer in my neighborhood. I’m just guessing based what I see and am disregarding sex or age. Just dead deer, and from a tiny corner of the world with lots of them.

1. Automobile
2. Farm equipment (swathers)
3. Hunters
4. Predators*
5. The rest are insignificant.

*The hardest to judge. Possibly tied with hunters but still in the same range. Based on a bone count ?
 
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