how would you handle this

[gopher1]

Alright here i go, what or how would you handle this situation , Last year i went on a guided elk hunt, 1st time for this, in unit 15, "i have shot a couple of cow elk in the past years. The owner said i won't shoot anything under 320, The guide was a great person showed a lot of pictures of previous hunts everything was huge. So on the second day i shot a bull that was over 200 inches, the guide had two bulls coming in , when we saw both bulls ,he taped me on shoulder, and said dont shoot the second one the 1st ones bigger, so i shot the 1st one, the guide upon seeing the bull on the ground, apologized, an he said oh my god im so sorry,,, the owner of the business said its on me because i pulled the trigger, my response was i also paid the guide to judge the size of the elk , -the shot was less than 60 yds. From my point i was happy i filled the tag but it fell short, on a very costly hunt.

 

[Cahunter805]

Tough situation but I do agree with the owner. You pulled the trigger on the bull. Now if you want to be mad at the guide that’s another thing. Also IMO did you study before the hunt on how to score bull elk? If you were after a certain number I’d sure hope you studied what that should look like.

 

[Jarhead]

You think maybe he was saving the bigger one for some other hunter.

 

[ortegageno]

Was the guide smoking bat ****? how could he possibly say shoot a bull at 65 yards that only scores right over 200 inches. Maybe he thought you were hunting a giant mule deer.

 

[SS!]

congrats on the bull! Post a pic!

 

[OCHO]

That’s $hitty outfitter and guide. People do make mistakes but that’s why you pay people certain wages and hire certain guides to eliminate this problem. The problem is majority of all of the above are better talkers than doers. There’s soo many guides and outfitters it’s insane and it’s not hard to do either.

I mean you think they make those mistakes on the mascalero?Acoma? Laguna? Not likely but they are tuning people who know exactly what criteria and expectation.

taking a hunter out is only a small portion of the guides responsibility. the client is relying on you to help with this, that’s why people pay so much it’s not just so they are fed and lodged. How is it the clients responsibility?

 

[OCHO]

Tough situation but I do agree with the owner. You pulled the trigger on the bull. Now if you want to be mad at the guide that’s another thing. Also IMO did you study before the hunt on how to score bull elk? If you were after a certain number I’d sure hope you studied what that should look like.

If that’s the case what did he need a qualified guide for? Just to walk him around the hills? The owner set the expectations and needs to stand by it and he should have a guide who is aware and capable of performing accordingly. By your theory.... say I start cutting the meat up for a client and I’m not doing a good job should it be the clients responsibility to study a head of time or and know how to cut the meat in case I don’t? Isn't this what he paid for? Doesn’t make sense imo.

 

[OCHO]

Alright here i go, what or how would you handle this situation , Last year i went on a guided elk hunt, 1st time for this, in unit 15, "i have shot a couple of cow elk in the past years. The owner said i won't shoot anything under 320, The guide was a great person showed a lot of pictures of previous hunts everything was huge. So on the second day i shot a bull that was over 200 inches, the guide had two bulls coming in , when we saw both bulls ,he taped me on shoulder, and said dont shoot the second one the 1st ones bigger, so i shot the 1st one, the guide upon seeing the bull on the ground, apologized, an he said oh my god im so sorry,,, the owner of the business said its on me because i pulled the trigger, my response was i also paid the guide to judge the size of the elk , -the shot was less than 60 yds. From my point i was happy i filled the tag but it fell short, on a very costly hunt.

200 or 300”?

 

[Ropinfool]

what's there to handle??? you were elk hunting and you shot a bull. you paid a guide and he guided you. you pulled the trigger.

 

[Toro]

Better luck next time! There's a HUGE difference in 200" and a trophy quality bull and IMO there has to be personal responsibility to know what you're lining up in your sights and pulling the trigger on. Sucks if the guide doesn't know the difference but I like to think that if I dropped $$$ I'd be really picky and make my decisions on what I was willing to take home. Kinda like picking that real purty blonde hair blue eyed "gal" at the bar to take home and then once you get "her" home SURPRISE there's a third appendage hidden underneath that dress. You gotta do your homework and know what you're getting yourself into!!

 

[OCHO]

Better luck next time! There's a HUGE difference in 200" and a trophy quality bull and IMO there has to be personal responsibility to know what you're lining up in your sights and pulling the trigger on. Sucks if the guide doesn't know the difference but I like to think that if I dropped $$$ I'd be really picky and make my decisions on what I was willing to take home. Kinda like picking that real purty blonde hair blue eyed "gal" at the bar to take home and then once you get "her" home SURPRISE there's a third appendage hidden underneath that dress. You gotta do your homework and know what you're getting yourself into!!

So when you go to Texas for a Gold Caliber Ram OR New Zealand for Gold Stag Or any of the above your telling me it’s your responsibility to know what is and isn’t a gold ram or bull? Or the outfitter? You flew across the world possibly for this and are depending on the guides... When you go hunt Yukon moose in some areas minimum 60” should that be on me the hunter ? Or the guide? Same with sheep your paying for someone to tell you yes that’s a full curl and legal or no that’s not 180” ram. Should you have some knowledge absolutely.He said he has only shot a few cows and the outfitter who’s same guy saying “that’s on you” said you’ll shoot a 320”easy. That’s fast talk to get clients. 320 just don’t fall off the tree daily even in the gila. Doesn’t it sound a bit off? First they say you’ll shoot 320 easy, than first 2 bulls come in and they say shoot. I put that on the outfitter and from the sounds of it a lot of you should hold people to a higher accountability that’s half the point of paying an outfitter.

can you explain how he didn’t know what he was getting into? In fact I completely disagree because he knew he needed or wanted an outfitter maybe cause he doesn’t know what he’s doing and is learning so how is that on him?
I think there’s enough good outfitters out there an equally bad. I personally don’t think this should/would happen if he went with one.

I know a guy from Iowa drew a gila a few years ago and he sat water and in blinds everyday per the guide and outfitter which is BS. I told him hes getting screwed and he requested other options but they said this was the best option to kill and if he wanted to kill her needed to do what they say. He never saw more than a few cows and guess what that’s again on the outfitter. Should that be his fault as well?

For some reason in hunting we are really good at messing stuff up for each other even more so than anti hunters.

your entitled to your opinion as am I and I can’t say I wouldn’t be pissed.

 

[Cahunter805]

If that’s the case what did he need a qualified guide for? Just to walk him around the hills? The owner set the expectations and needs to stand by it and he should have a guide who is aware and capable of performing accordingly. By your theory.... say I start cutting the meat up for a client and I’m not doing a good job should it be the clients responsibility to study a head of time or and know how to cut the meat in case I don’t? Isn't this what he paid for? Doesn’t make sense imo.

He didn’t have a qualified guide is the problem. I do agree there are many outfitters/guides that really probably shouldn’t have a license but that’s not what we are talking about.
A 200” bull is a rag horn and if the client/hunter can’t tell a rag horn from a larger bull then maybe they should have at least looked at some pictures of elk and got an idea of what they wanted to harvest before the hunt.
I do agree that I would be very upset with the guide and his terrible advice though. Also the owner should have tried to make it right with either a discount or another hunt or something.

 

[OCHO]

He didn’t have a qualified guide is the problem. I do agree there are many outfitters/guides that really probably shouldn’t have a license but that’s not what we are talking about.
A 200” bull is a rag horn and if the client/hunter can’t tell a rag horn from a larger bull then maybe they should have at least looked at some pictures of elk and got an idea of what they wanted to harvest before the hunt.
I do agree that I would be very upset with the guide and his terrible advice though. Also the owner should have tried to make it right with either a discount or another hunt or something.

That’s what chaps me man people burning people whether you have millions or you saved for 10 years it’s his hard earned money and time. I think fact that he didn’t offer to make it right makes me believe they landed the client by smoke and mirrors and wanted to get him out. A lot of outfitters don’t care if clients come back one and done and on to the next. Makes a lot of good guides/outfitters look bad.

 

[roadrunner]

Did the outfitter guarentee the outcome of a mid range 300" bull?

Probably wouldn't get much sympathy in court because of the old phrase we've all heard too many times "it's the hunter's responsibility to...". I've yet to read where a hunter gets off scott free when an outfitter/guide is enganged in illegal hunting activity.

Unfortunately, from an economics standpoint, the highest satisfaction level of the hunt was the first minute of the first day of the hunt, and that was a result of past photos of other bulls and clients. It's value goes down from there.

 

[Jarhead]

The guide knew exactly what he was doing the hunter knew less but at that close range both were at fault. I wouldn’t use that outfitter again.

 

[lovehunting]

Don't hire a guide problem solved you said you were happy. At least maybe for further hunts..

 

[money]

come on man. you pulled the trigger! can't take it back so you best get over it. the guide might be a little at fault but I think you are the issue on this one. You didn't know what you were shooting at which means you either don't hunt enough or you don't have enough ice in your veins and need to calm down. This day and age it is easy to find info online about judging animals. This is homework you should have done prior to your hunt. Yes the guide should do his part, but he never forced you to shoot. it is your job as the hunter to make your own judgement call and once you pulled the trigger you lost your right to complain. I understand you are frustrated, but ultimately it is on you and you alone. if you're gonna spend your money to buy a hunt and hire a guide, you better do your homework in all areas first.

 

[BrianID]

That is a hard situation to judge because I wasn't there. but since you asked, I'll give you my $0.02.

There is a very big difference between a 200" bull and a 320"+ bull. If you couldn't tell the difference before pulling the trigger, then I think you do have some responsibility. Too many hunters get caught up in the score of animals. If it looks good to you, then pull the trigger and be happy with the animal and you shouldn't care what it scored.

You could have been scammed by the outfitter, for all I know too. They could have shown you pictures of 280" bulls, and told you they were big bulls. Once they saw you believed them, they knew they had a sucker on the line.

 

[roadrunner]

A smallish 5x5 or medium 4x4 is a 200" bull.

Just think what a 200" muley rack looks like on a 600# animal.

 

[NMhunter4life]

Lets see a picture of the elk you killed.

My brother is a taxidermist so I have seen a lot of all different kinds of animals come in to the shop with purported scores from the hunter. It doesn't matter whether it is a guided or a self-guided hunter, they are all very inflated and I am convinced that most are just a shot in the dark guess and were never measured.

The standard deduction that seems to fit from reported score to actual score is: -10 for antelope, -20 for deer and -50 for elk.

 

[DeerHunter53]

Alright here i go, what or how would you handle this situation , Last year i went on a guided elk hunt, 1st time for this, in unit 15, "i have shot a couple of cow elk in the past years. The owner said i won't shoot anything under 320, The guide was a great person showed a lot of pictures of previous hunts everything was huge. So on the second day i shot a bull that was over 200 inches, the guide had two bulls coming in , when we saw both bulls ,he taped me on shoulder, and said dont shoot the second one the 1st ones bigger, so i shot the 1st one, the guide upon seeing the bull on the ground, apologized, an he said oh my god im so sorry,,, the owner of the business said its on me because i pulled the trigger, my response was i also paid the guide to judge the size of the elk , -the shot was less than 60 yds. From my point i was happy i filled the tag but it fell short, on a very costly hunt.

Gopher

I had same thing happen to me on an guided Antelope hunt we were waiting for four bucks to come through an opening and the guide said shoot the first one coming through it's the biggest. I shot and killed the buck but it wasn't the biggest it was the smallest. My fault I should have not taken the guides word for it I should have taken the time. Either way I did not EVER hunt with that guide again and would not suggest him to anyone.

 

[labby1]

Bull Elk Bow and Arrow. I call it a successful hunt. Congrats. Next time you will have a better idea.

 

[ortegageno]

Should have just shot both of them and added the score together to make a 400. ??.

 

[littlebull209338]

Dang....that's the problem with hunting...no catch and release ! Your adrenaline blinded your judgement...has happened to all of us at one time or another. Same thing happened to me on an Alaskan caribou hunt.. fortunately... I had a second tag. I had never hunted caribou, never even seen one and I learned an expensive lesson.

 

[tailgunner]

I would like to know the actual score of the Bull. The post said the bull was over 200. How much over 200? If it was 280 or 290 that is different than 200 or 210. I have been guiding elk hunts for 20 years and if I told some one he would get shot at a 320 bull and I ended telling him to shoot a 200 inch Bull I would get fired.

 

[RioHuntNutt]

This is a tough deal but not so much. The hunter still got behind the trigger and made a good shot and killed a bull.
I used to guide for one of NM better known outfitters and at that time, I was guiding his hunts in 16B. Because it was wilderness we were base camped 8 miles off the dirt road pretty much accessible only with horses/mules. Elk were literally everywhere , it is an absolute amazing area and so far back that 99% of hunters will not go that far back in so the elk are very much undisturbed. I would converse with all my hunters , I wanted to know their experience with elk , their physical abilities and their shooting ability.Most the new guys all popped out that mystical "350" number, I want 350 OR NOTHING...Some very experienced whitetail hunters who had never seen bull elk in the wild , same claim 350, were drawing their bows back on 280 class bulls. Some guys I had to put the brakes on and let them know way south of the 300s bulls and some guys were so excited and the bull passed the eye test and they were happy to tag such a bull. My outfitter and I had/have a great relationship, he trusted me to take care of our clients and I worked hard to do so. I had this above happen to me , 4 bulls including a massive heavy 5x6 we later killed that was 348 and two other nice 300 class bulls and a dink in that 220 range. I had two rifle hunters , and the bulls were going absolutely crazy fire with hate in their hearts to lock up. I split the two guys after we watched all the bulls with in 200 or so yards, there was only the one small 5x5 bull and we had discussed and agreed he was a no kill. I moved back about 100 or so yards and started to bugle, to them another bull was joining the fight and possible cow grab. The big bull gathered up what he could and elk started our way. I watched as all the bulls cleared my way when I heard the shot. The elk did not scatter they didn't really know what happened.I watched all 3 bigger bulls start to leave when I hear my hunter screaming woop woop yeah bull down and so on!!...I knew then , he killed the rag horn. Long story , but in the end he was happy even tho we joked some with him but he said when he saw the big body standing so close , he knew we would be happy.My outfitter even drilled me as to how I let him pull the trigger? I dont think its at all crazy to expect the hunter to have some knowledge and in communication knowing what is and is not acceptable. The hunter above did rely on a guide to help make that decision and we dont know if the elk got shuffled and when the shot presented itself bulls had switched places...It does happen and if one is out enough , you know my words are true..With all this said , I do believe guides should absolutely know the difference of a 200 inch bull vs 300 inch bulls . As mentioned above , so many can talk the talk but truly know very little in bigger bulls.

 

[EVILNR]

Live and Learn. No Biggy.

 

[Bolt Tripper]

I will wait to hear the final score before forming an opinion. Also, could we see a pic of the bull?

 

[mozey]

I'm not saying what the hunter in this case should do, but because he asked "how would you handle this?" I'll say how I would handle it.

Based on my experience in the field, I know elk are always switching places with each other as they move their way through an area, and I think the guide should have known this and been a little more hesitant until he was sure of the target.

But ultimately, I am the one pulling the trigger, and in my mind that puts the greater responsibility on me to know what I'm shooting at when I'm about to end something's life. I can't control the guide; I can only control my own actions. I'd consider it a hard lesson learned, but learn from it none-the-less, and never make that mistake again in future.

If I otherwise had a really good experience with the outfitter and guide, I might ask about a possible discount on a future hunt. I think, given the opportunity, most honest ones would probably work their butts off for me... ;-)

 

[Reuben_Soady]

We had a case where we jumped a pair of bulls and the guide said "shoot the left one" and the response was "I only see one". No shot that opening morning. Later that week my buddy took his time, set up a bench rest fore and aft, and shot a 295" 6x6, in the neck and boiler room, at 350 yards (100 yards farther than he ever shot before). He'd never been hunting before. No buck fever, just stone cold patience.

 

[freaknasty]

In the end its the hunter that pulls the trigger or releases the arrow so it is solely up to the hunter to pass or not.
as for the guide he should have known better to tell you to shoot maybe he was looking at a different elk all together and didn't realize what you were seeing.
just a bad deal either way better luck next time.

 

[doz]

Been a week, no reply..... OP says "over 200"

If OP couldn't tell the difference between 220" and 320", that's on him not the guide. If he shoots a 280" vs. 320", I'd put that more on the guide as he should know.

I'm not a good judge, but 100" is 100" and a huge difference.

 

[OCHO]

So someone answer me. You go to Alaska on a Dall sheep hunt guide says shoot the ram he is full curl and you get there it’s not is that all on you and nothing with the guide? You go to shoot 10’ bear Kodiak Island and you shoot 8’ but guide said it was 10’ is this your fault? Is that acceptable? Or is it because we have elk we should know better? It’s not partially our responsibility to know scoring for the hunt... if I go on an Alaskan bear hunt I’m completely relying on my guides knowledge to find a specific trophy and if not the communication on what my options are. Do we have that poor of expectations of local NM guides we can’t even provide the services we say we will?

There is a big difference in telling the client to shoot and asking him if he wants to take something completely out of his expectations.

 

[Ropinfool]

you have the tag, you have the gun, you are responsible. unless it's in writing that you'll get a certain size which I doubt that's ever the case.

 

[doz]

So someone answer me. You go to Alaska on a Dall sheep hunt guide says shoot the ram he is full curl and you get there it’s not is that all on you and nothing with the guide? You go to shoot 10’ bear Kodiak Island and you shoot 8’ but guide said it was 10’ is this your fault? Is that acceptable? Or is it because we have elk we should know better? It’s not partially our responsibility to know scoring for the hunt... if I go on an Alaskan bear hunt I’m completely relying on my guides knowledge to find a specific trophy and if not the communication on what my options are. Do we have that poor of expectations of local NM guides we can’t even provide the services we say we will?

There is a big difference in telling the client to shoot and asking him if he wants to take something completely out of his expectations.

Within reason, it's not on the guide. Scoring is difficult from distance. You can think an Elk will go 320" and it might not quite touch 300". That isn't unacceptable IMO. Anyone should know 200" Elk vs. 320" Elk though...... If a guide told him to shoot a 200" vs. 320", he should have been fired and the shot not taken.

But we need clarity from OP on the actual size.

 

[BrianID]

So someone answer me. You go to Alaska on a Dall sheep hunt guide says shoot the ram he is full curl and you get there it’s not is that all on you and nothing with the guide? You go to shoot 10’ bear Kodiak Island and you shoot 8’ but guide said it was 10’ is this your fault? Is that acceptable? Or is it because we have elk we should know better? It’s not partially our responsibility to know scoring for the hunt... if I go on an Alaskan bear hunt I’m completely relying on my guides knowledge to find a specific trophy and if not the communication on what my options are. Do we have that poor of expectations of local NM guides we can’t even provide the services we say we will?

There is a big difference in telling the client to shoot and asking him if he wants to take something completely out of his expectations.

Good point about Alaska hunts verse NM hunts. However, if I was on a guided Alaska hunt I would blame myself more than the guide if I shot a small bear or sheep. Even if the guide told me to shoot, I would still feel responsible because I was on the trigger. If the guide told me that it was a giant bear and it ended up be a small young bear, his tip would be compromised but beyond that I would take responsibility.

I've found in rushed shooting situations it is common to end up with "ground shrinkage". You have to be very careful in those rushed shooting situations.

I feel too many hunters get too caught up in the "score" or "size" of the animal. If you as a hunter can't tell the what the score is before you pull the trigger, then why should you care what the score is when you share pictures with friends.