Idaho Unit 51 late MZ hunt

Willywalnuts

Member
Messages
40
LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-17 AT 09:25AM (MST)[p]I drew this late season deer hunt and am not at all familiar with the unit. I'm not trying to get any honey hole info just more any general information or past experiences people may have had with this hunt? From what I understand the unit is hunted pretty hard during general season, any suggestions on the quality of buck I could realistically hold out for? I've read anywhere from 150-180". I plan on hunting it the last two weeks of November as I'm guessing the colder weather and rut will get them moving and possibly draw more of the big boys out in the open. The elevation variation in the unit is huge, should I target the higher elevations and backpack in or are the deer going to be in the foothills and would scouting/glassing from the road and covering more ground be more affective? Any help or insight would be much appreciated, Im super excited for this hunt and personally love the restrictions Idaho has on the muzzle loaders making it a much more classic and challenging hunt. Im primarily a bow hunter and enjoy the challenge of stalking big mulies.
 
Willey,

I drew the same tag, and am excited after going 0-35+ in other draws not including my wife's 0-25+ with more points than me on most hunts.

Gotta get a new muzzyloader and get
It dialed in since mine is not Idaho legal.

But am excited to watch rutting bucks with their lips curled, necks stretched out, trying to mount a doe.

Maybe one of us will see "That one."

Good luck.
 
Congrats on your draw! I imagine it will be a fun hunt with some great country to hike in. I was hoping to get a little more info on the unit in this forum but so far no luck. If you guys continue to have bad luck drawing pick up a bow if your able and head to Arizona in jan for some fun mule deer rut action OTC. It's a great time and lots of deer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-17 AT 02:15PM (MST)[p] If you
>guys continue to have bad
>luck drawing pick up a
>bow if your able and
>head to Arizona in jan
>for some fun mule deer
>rut action OTC. It's a
>great time and lots of
>deer.

...keep blabbing about it and it won't be and there won't be.


323421626570513685990098870652286725493870346854n.jpg
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-17
>AT 09:25?AM (MST)

>
>I drew this late season deer
>hunt and am not at
>all familiar with the unit.
>I'm not trying to get
>any honey hole info just
>more any general information or
>past experiences people may have
>had with this hunt? From
>what I understand the unit
>is hunted pretty hard during
>general season, any suggestions on
>the quality of buck I
>could realistically hold out for?
>I've read anywhere from 150-180".
>I plan on hunting it
>the last two weeks of
>November as I'm guessing the
>colder weather and rut will
>get them moving and possibly
>draw more of the big
>boys out in the open.
>The elevation variation in the
>unit is huge, should I
>target the higher elevations and
>backpack in or are the
>deer going to be in
>the foothills and would scouting/glassing
>from the road and covering
>more ground be more affective?
>Any help or insight would
>be much appreciated, Im super
>excited for this hunt and
>personally love the restrictions Idaho
>has on the muzzle loaders
>making it a much more
>classic and challenging hunt. Im
>primarily a bow hunter and
>enjoy the challenge of stalking
>big mulies.


Okay I will chime in. I used to hunt unit 51 every year. I loved it there. But I was hunting for elk before the wolf crash. I hunted the early bow hunt, the late rifle hunt and the Muzzleloader hunt. I drew the ML deer tags a couple times and I got a 3 point.

Here is the deal. That area was a much better elk hunt. I didn't see much for deer at all. Yes you can see them in the farm fields and along the creek here and there. I never saw big herds of deer like in other winter ranges. I have never seen a 180 class buck there. Not saying there isn't any just saying in the 15 years I hunted there I never seen them. In fact I never seen a 150 either. That unit is built on end. It is steep and it is rugged. I have killed a LOT of elk there. I have also killed a few deer.

I wish I could give you more info on "where they hang out" but to tell you the truth there is no "hang out" that I found. A lot of the deer here in Idaho will haul a$$ out of the mountains at the first sign of weather. The Migration has changed for most areas. I couldn't tell you if it has there or not.
From my experience there will be small bunches of deer not huge groups. The Brush in the draws will easily hide 5 or 6 deer making it a needle in a haystack hunt. And it takes half a day to get to the haystack.

I would say good luck and give us a report but guys like you come on every year. They log on and have 1 to 5 posts under there belt and ask where do I go. People like me will give them info and say give us a report. Nothing is ever said again. I am sure you won't be any different.
 
>+1. No need for the site
>if everyone has closed lips.
>

It is not a matter of closed lips.
I have given guys info for years. Most of it is private messages. Guys come on here every year with less than 10 posts wanting info. Then they never give reports and half the time they don't say thanks.
I tend to not give as much info as I used to because the guys that ask want something for nothing. They don't say thank you, and they don't report what they saw or how they did.

If there is closed lips it is because we have seen guys like this. Post a half dozen times and never see them again. I gave the info I know to the guy. He will never say thank you and he will never say how he did. Those are the guys to blame for "Tight Lips".
 
I know the unit fairly well. The draw odds on this hunt are reasonable for two reasons. There is a lot of rough country you have to climb if you want to hunt it and the odds of seeing, let alone killing a 180"+ buck are fairly low. Deer densities are lower in 51 than other units in Southern Idaho.
If you are and experienced mule deer hunter and put in the time and effort, you should see several mature bucks chasing does during your hunt.
Unless you are experienced packing in a camp in temps that could be below 0, I wouldn't recommend considering that on this hunt.
 
Than you everyone for assuming the worst and still parting with some knowledge. Sounds like there's a lot of selfish people that use this sight for pirating info and not returning the favor. That type of behavior can definitely corrupt a good resource like this. I would say to all you tight lipped senior members if your reading all theses posts and choosing not to respond then doesn't that essentially making you guilty of the same thing? Gaining knowledge without partaking in the conversation?
My goal is to harvest a 180+ deer and then to post pics and a recollection of my hunt on this forum and to help the next guy if I'm able too. A 150" deer will not be getting a musketball unless every stone is unturned and what you guys are saying is true and this unit really doesn't hold them which I find very hard to believe considering the size. Anyone who want to help me accomplish this goal with direct or indirect knowledge would be much appreciated and I'd be happy to repay the knowledge if at all possible. My main areas of expertise would be archery for blacktail in northern CA and CO mule deer. Brian thanks for your insight man, may have to reconsider the pack in. Can you still reach the elevations hiding better quality deer in a days hike from the lower elevations? Would it be worth talking to ranchers about a trespass hunt and chasing those river bottom bucks instead? Not the type of hunt I was hoping for but maybe a good last resort?
 
Have you ever seen the area at all? Have you read the regulations on the unit?

Did you know that the same time your deer hunting with a limited range Muzzleloader there are 125 bull tags, 200 cow tags on the west side that are rifle tags? Did you know there is a OPEN over the counter unlimited Muzzleloader elk hunt for cows and that will be going on from Nov 25th through the end of your hunt? Did you know that there is a OPEN spike bull hunt that goes from Nov 1st to the 7th?

Then you will also have the guys showing up early parking their trailers and scouting for the next cow hunt that starts Dec 10th.

Did you know that the river bottom of the Little lost is almost 100% locked up by a hunting preserve? Some of the land owners have also signed leases with the hunting club further reducing the amount of private land that is available as a last resort.

Sure I sound like a downer. The unit has poor deer numbers and a lot of elk hunters pilling into there. For every tag that is issued there is several guys helping the tag holder find game.

Did you know that on the average year they get NO or very little snow in the month of November? Almost every bull tag and every cow hunter is focusing on the same two weeks you are, hoping for snow. Sure they are not killing deer but they are disrupting them. Pushing them into harder to get to spots.

I really wish you the best. I hope you find a spot to get a big one. I would love to see a big one come out of there. But I have never seen one alive or dead that was over 150. You will have a lot of other guys to deal with. I wish you the best.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-17 AT 02:25PM (MST)[p]Willywalnuts wrote:
I would say to all you
>tight lipped senior members if
>your reading all theses posts
>and choosing not to respond
>then doesn't that essentially making
>you guilty of the same
>thing? Gaining knowledge without partaking
>in the conversation?

seriously? if the "tight lipped senior members" gave the key to the city to every 1st time poster what would be left? those "senior members" and a lot of less "senior members" for the most part share and help multiple people every year they just have been burnt by the fly by night/one hit wonders a cou[le times to many. I truly hope you get what you want out of your hunt and post up the results.

one piece of advise? look thru the forums and add comments and start helping and maybe one or more of those guys will know of the unit or someone who does.

be part of the solution and make it a better MM world...
 
Hate to sound like a downer but its a hard hunt. I did see one that would probably be in that 180 range, but he was a long ways off and in a area that didn't offer any real safe way to get to him. Probably why he had some size on him.

As a non resident I still put in for the unit because I'm only about 4 hours away and I like camping in the wall tent when its cold.

I came home empty handed and only had 2 legitimate opportunities on small meat bucks. It was fun but have realistic expectations about the hunt.
 
Thanks foundation,
My expectations would be to harvest a mature buck, ideally four years old or better. The score is less important to me. I would imagine in a unit that size they are in there so it would be counter productive to go into the hunt without the expectation to achieve my goal. Based on what everyone's saying it's a challenging hunt but that should be expected in DIY public land hunting. The fact that there are Elk hunters in there should also not be a deterrent. If we all held out for easy 180+ mule deer hunting units (if there is such a thing) with no hunting pressure and no one else scouting or hunting any other species we would never get to go right? I've killed enough deer that I have no desire to shoot a two year old buck just for meat. If I really thought that's the best I could do I wouldn't going at all but thats hard for me to believe. I'm sure there's some good areas you just have to find them. I am sorry you had a tough go at it your last hunt, better luck next time
 
Willey,

I appreciate you sticking with it despite the ridicule. Disregard the number of posts, they are meaningless!!!

My old handle (califelkslayer) had like 4110 posts before the account got corrupted and I had to change it. And 4100+ posts doesn't mean I'm anything!!

The dozens of guys I have helped, or have helped me does mean something.

Having not been in a unit ever is also irrelevant since everyone has a "first time." It may be your future favorite spot, who knows?

There are a ton of great guys on here. Many have helped me and I have helped as many as I can, especially on units that are tough to draw and I may never hunt again.

I haven't used my horses on a hunt in several years but after reading some of the comments, this may be my best option.

Good luck to you.
 
Thanks Kaliel,
I think people misinterpreted what I was asking, I wasn't seeking a honey hole or any secret hard earned information. I have a couple ranches and also a large public land area I hunt every season and have come to learn very well so I understand being guarded when it comes to certain things, but asking what quality of deer to hold out for realisticly is something I would always encourage people to ask me. If I told everyone that they would be lucky to see a three year old buck then everyone would be shooting our two year old deer and that's not good for the genetics or the health of the deer herd. That's really all I wanted to know, that and the general pattern of the deer herd at that time of year elevation wise and from the sounds of it most people that responded really have no clue because they haven't hunted it that time of year.....or they were elk hunting which is very different methodology in my experience. Hopefully all the back and forth helped give you a little info as well. It sounds as though we will have to put our work in finding the deer most likely lots of time spent behind the glass and if we find a good one we better make it count. Good luck to you as well, let me know how you do
 
>If
>I told everyone that they
>would be lucky to see
>a three year old buck
>then everyone would be shooting
>our two year old deer
>and that's not good for
>the genetics or the health
>of the deer herd. That's
>really all I wanted to
>know, that and the general
>pattern of the deer herd
>at that time of year
>elevation wise and from the
>sounds of it most people
>that responded really have no
>clue because they haven't hunted
>it that time of year.....or
>they were elk hunting which
>is very different methodology in
>my experience.

I told you I have hunted that unit for years. I have had that tag two times. I have hunted both the little lost and the Big lost side. I killed a buck in the Big Lost side after hunting for 12 days. The second time I had the tag I didn't pull the trigger. I have hunted it many times in October with a rifle.

I didn't misunderstand what you were asking for at all. You wanted info on where and how to kill a 180 and no one answered. I couldn't tell you where to kill a 180 so I didn't answer.

I warned you of the number of other hunters so you knew what to expect. The last thing I like to see in a new area is a ton of people. I told you the truth. I also told you the truth that a lot of the private land in the Little Lost is sewn up by the Lost river hunting club. Getting permission to hunt a GOOD QUALITY river bottom is very unlikely but farmers have a language it is called the Benjamin's.

Everything I told you was the truth 100%. If that is meaningless then fine. I do hope you prove me wrong. I would LOVE to be proven wrong HONESTLY.

You talk about hunting elk and deer are vastly different. In some areas yes. On winter range there not so much. You will see, like BrianID said there is a reason that the hunt is easy to draw. He was exactly right.

Also add in that the closest gas station from the north end of the hunt is over an hour drive. Your talking a two hour drive just to get gas.

I am telling you these things so you know in advance. I am actually trying to help you. If you know up front then you won't let these things get you down when you realize that you traveled this far for a tag that not many want.

The competition is something you don't mind but you should. You see a small herd of deer and they will be up with the elk in higher elevation. Again because the unit doesn't get much snow, and it gets a TON of pressure. Deer don't actually know the difference between a deer hunter and a elk hunter.
You will be sneaking in on deer when a guy with the latest and greatest Remchester with a Nightforce scope will take a shot at the elk that are near the deer.

I tell you this because it happens!! There will be guys chasing elk with 4 wheelers and trucks across the flats near the farms, trying to get close for a shot.

There will be guys parked on every knob looking with spotting scopes.

Again don't misunderstand my points on this hunt. I am trying to give you honest input.

If you don't want that then take this because this is what you seem to want.
There are 180 class bucks walking through the streets of Howe. You can sit at one of the restaurants and watch them lip curl right out the window.
All you have to do is pull into a driveway of a farm and they will see your non resident plates and give you permission to hunt. Not one buck on the farms is under 180. If you shoot a buck smaller than this one you will be sorry.

1Cz6P4Q.jpg
 
Ron,
I am listening to what you are saying and don't doubt the truth in it. I am well aware of the difficulties in persuing a mature deer on a public land hunt. I don't expect it to be easy but isn't that part of the attraction of it? Would you be happier if I was asking if I could possibly shoot a two year old 150 class buck? That may end up being the reality of the situation but certainly not one I would go into a hunt as a goal. And I would more than likely eat the tag before that happened. If it's that bad of a hunt why do you go every year? Why do you keep putting in for the late season tag?
 
Nothing you do is going to make me happy or unhappy I don't care one way or the other. It is your tag I just want you to realize what you have, and what you don't have.
I quit hunting deer there years ago. I hunted there to get to know the country better for elk hunting. I switched units to get the buck above, and these below. But the quality of bucks is dropping everywhere in Idaho even in the best units. The last time I had a ML tag in unit 45 for deer I had a great opportunity to get into a 190 class buck. On opening morning a group of elk hunters walked right through my group of deer. I hunted hard on that 14 day tag and I got the last buck in the pictures below on the last day. He was a dink and I was lucky to get him because I didn't see a branch antlered deer for 13 days. If you don't think other hunters especially elk hunters won't mess up your hunt your wrong. Deer don't know the difference between elk hunters and deer hunters.

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I quit hunting elk there about 10 years ago. About the time the wolves did a number on them. We took a LOT of elk out of there. Most were on the spike and muzzleloader cow hunts but I did draw for a few late bull tags.

X1Mkt26.jpg


The quality of bulls was outstanding. I passed 350 bulls the second time I had the tag and ended up eating my tag. But I was happy it was a good decision. The last time I had the tag I could not find a 300 bull and I ate my tag and that one sucked.

I have extensive knowledge with black powder rifles and hunting for mule deer, elk, and antelope.

You said
".or they were elk hunting which is very different methodology in my experience"

Just because I hunt elk doesn't mean I cant hunt deer. Your looking for easy info and your disrespecting the very guys that are trying to give you HONEST answers.

You don't seem to believe those of us that have been there and done the hunt. That is okay. Your a Rose colored glasses kind of guy and that is great.

You want positive words. Good luck on your hunt. Check into the Howe motel. Have a big meal at the restaurant and fill your tank with fuel. And slap the pretty waitress on the hind end. Her dad has a big ranch and is looking to get rid of the excess 200 class mule deer.
 
Ron,
Those are some nice deer. I don't feel I've been disrespectful at all. I've started a discussion about hunting deer in a unit I drew and you and a few other members have been trying to pigeon hole me as some one and done guy who is just fishing for information with no respect for anyone? You don't know me, you know nothing about me or my hunting abilitys or my ethics. I didn't join this forum to discuss people's character I wanted to discuss hunting. I'm sure your an amazing muzzle loader hunter, the truth is im a complete rookie when it comes to muzzle loaders, I've been hunting archery for many years now and used a rifle prior to that. Does that mean anything at all? Probably not right? Only that I'm fairly confident at my abilitys to get in close to a deer when needed. I won't be staying in a hotel or slapping anyone's behind thanks. My point on Elk hunting which I've done quite a bit of is Im looking for Elk....not deer. So while I'm sure I'll glass up or jump the occasional buck I can hardly use that as an indication of the density of the herd or the quality of deer I can find. The quality of deer has gone down everywhere in the country not just Idaho thanks to social media and google earth and everyone wanting to shoot a deer like they see on the sportsmans channel. That's just the world we live in now, there are no secret spots anymore. That doesn't mean I'm going to get bitter and hang up my hunting boots and take up golf. Im sure everyone's enjoying reading our little back and forth but really it sounds like your hell bent on discouraging me from going on this hunt and that's just not going to happen so let's leave it be. I just wanted to find out about the unit I drew and thought this forum would be a good place to start.
 
I'm sure you guys will have a fun hunt, my guess is between the good and the bad I've heard the the reality is somewhere in the middle. The outcome will probably depend on how hard we're willing to work and what we're willing to hold out for. A little luck always helps as well. Do you guys have a time frame in mind on when your going to hunt? Early or late November?
 
>Im sure
>everyone's enjoying reading our little
>back and forth but really
>it sounds like your hell
>bent on discouraging me from
>going on this hunt and
>that's just not going to
>happen so let's leave it
>be. I just wanted to
>find out about the unit
>I drew and thought this
>forum would be a good
>place to start.

I am not trying to discourage you at all. I am just telling you what to expect so you can be ready if it happens to you.

The main road into the Little lost will eat your tires make sure you have good ones. There is a lot of camping available along the river all the way up the valley.
There is a hot spring called Barney Hot spring where some guys take a bath. It is a little on the cool side for November. Again this is all just info and is true.

You also have to realize that the guys that have been here a long time have seen hundreds of guys like you show up right after the draw asking for info.
This forum is a great place for info. Not just info on hunts but on a lot of things.
I do hope you stick around and contribute. I do hope you have a good hunt. I also hope you give a report later and thank the guys that help you. If I have given any info that is dead wrong then after your hunt let me know. I would be glad to hear from you.
 
Am I the only one who can't tell if Ron hates this guy or loves this guy. Ron, It seems like you want to chew the guy out and then turn around and give him a hug haha. Wish you the best on your hunt.....and i actually mean that ?
 
I got nothing to hate. As far as I know he is a great guy. That is where I am at.
I hope he has a great hunt.
 
>Am I the only one who
>can't tell if Ron hates
>this guy or loves this
>guy. Ron, It seems
>like you want to chew
>the guy out and then
>turn around and give him
>a hug haha. Wish
>you the best on your
>hunt.....and i actually mean that
>?
Am i the only one to see that Ron has told this guy a ton of info? All for what? To be called out on being honest?
We will never see this guy again. One and done. Bye bye...is he being tight lipped? I suggested he look thru the forums and start helping...like he says we should..so either the guy who wants a 180 or nothing on a easy to draw tag has never hunted or he is holdimg out on us being "tight lipped:

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
Ive never met idron but a few of my friends have talked to him. He is telling you the god honest truth about that unit. He is not trying to discourage you from going on that hunt, he is telling you exactly what to EXPECT. I hope you do find that 180+ buck, but that unit is huge and you will cover a very small % of it even with best optics money can buy. We all have big dreams of big bucks everywhere and no other people in sight and he is just trying to get reality in your head. If hes willing to help you with a muzzleloader questions listen and dont argue, he knows his ##### when it comes to muzzleloaders!
Ill admit im one of those tightlip guys. Been burned too many times to help anyone anymore. I bust my ass to find quality spots to hunt and the few times ive helped a guy out, they had success. The next year hes back in there with all his family and friends. And thats when the anger sharks start swimming.
Go on that hunt and enjoy yourself. Spend all month up there if you can. You'll have a better time if you listen to Idron and get a damn good idea of what to expect rather than having a fairytale for expectations. just my 2 cents. Have a good hunt.
 
If you read all my posts I've thanked Idaho Ron half a dozen times for his input and I meant it. I've also expressed my belief that there are 180 class deer (I should have said mature deer, I'm not a numbers guy was using it more as a reference) in that unit and that it will take a lot of work and some luck to dig one up because I'm aware it's a general rifle unit and therefor I'll be hunting pressured deer. Is there something wrong with setting that as a goal on this hunt? If that offends people then I'm sorry. I don't recall ever saying it would be easy, or that it's definitely going to snow and push all the big deer down while still being a comfortable 70F and that the roads will be perfect and that the hot waitresses will let me slap their ass while their grandpa lets me hunt their trophy deer. Or that there is a gas station around every corner where the local clerk will tell me all the good spots and that I'll be the only guy hunting that unit ? I didn't ask for any honey holes in fact I made it clear that that wasn't something I expected. I don't mind putting in my own work and I would be happy to share anything I find with the next guy. All I was curios about were past experiences, the deer behavior that time of year and the quality of deer. Including some PM's I've received the responses are all over the board so although it sounds as though Rons experiences have been doom and gloom hunting it that's not everyone's.
 
I'm a long term lurker and prefer to stay on the sidelines, but I felt like I should contribute to this. I've hunted unit 51 (muzzleloader and rifle) quite a bit and Ron is spot on. Listen to his advice, I don't think he's trying to dissuade you, he's just trying to prepare you for a realistic outcome. It's rough, nasty country with nothing easy, but I love it up there and it's some of my favorite country. It's heavy on elk and light on deer. It'll be an uphill battle, but if you work hard and Lady Luck is on your side you may have an opportunity, just might not be 180" class. Be prepared for some frigid temps too, it can get quite cold up there in November. On a spike elk hunt up there once it was so cold that the water in the pan on the stove in the camper froze completely solid by the time we woke up in the morning(the heater quit working). Regardless if you tag a trophy or not, it'll be an awesome experience. Get wolf and lion tags just in case too, I've run into both up there although the wolves aren't quite as thick as they once were but they're still there. I hope you have success and happy trails.
 
I've mentioned helping people hunting in CO, CA and AZ only to be shut down for blabbing. So do you guys want me to help people or not? It's all very confusing haha.
 
Thanks daylatedollarshort,
My plan of attack (based on the info I've received) is to stay low, possibly even on the roads low and use the glass to try and find one up high while being mobile and covering lots of ground. I love hiking and putting miles on my boots but it seems that may be less affective on this hunt until I've targeted something. That does sound cold! Not for the faint of heart I suppose.
 
every post you have made has been on this thread, so you want everyone to blab to help you out. but you wont help the next guy, not very confusing to me, you are a one and done never to be seen again. prove me wrong and start helping out, and stick around and be a part of the solution. ridiculed?



>I've mentioned helping people hunting in
>CO, CA and AZ only
>to be shut down for
>blabbing. So do you guys
>want me to help people
>or not? It's all very
>confusing haha.


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait
 
Treedagain,
This is a response I gave to a fellow on this site trying to hunt a unit I'm very familiar with. This unit is a tough hunt, vertical hiking hot weather and pressured and paranoid blacktail deer which I would consider the most challenging species of deer to hunt. I would consider this a productive response, I gave him dates to target and the general pattern of the deer during the duration of the season. I did this without giving away any secret spots or privileged information. I didn't tell him it's going to suck and that he's not going to see any mature deer and that there will be other hunters out there chasing the same deer he is....all of which could be true by why say that? He's obviously going so I wanted to give him information that would help him succeed on his hunt. I suppose this is the type of information I was hoping to receive on this forum.

"Mobertok,
I am only familiar with B's general unit. I have a ranch there and also spend a lot of time hunting the public land. I can tell you that once it gets hot the bucks go to high elevations and timber up. Your best bet is to hold out until the last two weeks of the season when the rain, fog and colder weather draws them lower and into the open. It is very rare that they even start to pre rut before the close of the season unlike the A zone bucks but the colder weather does help your odds of bagging a mature buck. Hope this helps a little"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-17 AT 03:11PM (MST)[p]I am glad you took my advise and finally gave a little back. I hope you can stick around and add to it. it will take a lot more than 1 general comment to give back the extensive help you have been given.

I am looking forward to seeing you and your 180 buck. honestly hope you do it. good luck you will need it, hunting them in the rut is fun.
 
wow this post has turned into a soap opera but the info given is spot on. i have more experience hunting the other end of the valley but deer quality is low in 51. spoke to biologist In idaho falls who have conducted fly over surveys and 180 bucks are there but real real hard to come by. good luck
 
20 days of glassing over 4 nov seasons has found only 1 150 class buck, and he was on a hay field you will not likely get access to.

Unlike some units where the deer travel much farther to migrate, I don't find the deer and elk are to be "found" much differently. I must admit the likelihood of having a mature buck stay in one spot long enough to stalk within muzz range from the lower roads is highly unlikely.

If you aren't taking full measure of the expectations your have been provided, then you will be disappointed, but if you are you will be properly prepared and should have a good time one way or another. We certainly all want to see a mature old buck photo next to you so....

Good luck.
 
I think there's glassing....and then there's glassing. Glassing for Elk your covering lots of area and looking for an animal that's 600lbs+ glassing for deer I've picked apart a 30 acre area for hours before uncovering deer. When those bucks are in that brush you have really pick it apart to find them and even then you can miss them and that's with top glass...Swarovski's. Your not going to do that with elk, that being said it's still a bit disturbing that four years of glassing you haven't even chanced upon a deer over 150+ I must say I've heard very different feedback from people not in this forum. Not doubting you at all just tying to make sense of it all
 
Thank you for setting us straight . I didn't realize how much those Nov rutting bucks rely on hiding in brushy cover to find does in low density areas like 51.

I
 
>so back to the hunt and
>unit...has anyone hunted this within
>the last couple years?

Yes, in 2015 and in 2012 for elk. I did see 10 deer total over a 5 day hunt, 2 were in that 145-150 range. 180" bucks aren't happening though, unfortunately. But don't let that discourage you, its gorgeous country where you can see moose, sheep, deer, antelope and elk all in single day.

Spotting a wolf or a cat is definitely in the cards as well.

As much as I disagree with Idahoron often times on this forum, and his good old days rhetoric, his info is very accurate for the Lemhi Zone. There are a lot of elk (very few big bulls), which have dominated the zone. Mule deer numbers are dismal.

The temps will be cold, around 0. In unit 51, I would not be passing on ANY 4x4 buck. It will still be a great hunt where you will see a lot of critters and beautiful country.
 
yea nothing wrong with honesty...we're definitely getting a wolf tag. first time muzzy hunting so id be happy with anything really and if there is opportunity to shoot a nice buck then its a plus.we will be looking and hunting hard don't get me wrong, excited to get out either way!
 
Willey/Santa,

Wondering when you guys plan to hunt?

I'm doing the 11th through the 25th. My reasoning is it'll be after the 11/1-11/7 cow hunt and before the other hunt that begins the 25th.

Add in the dark of the moon on the 18th and my mind was made up. My limited experience with true rut type hunts is it peaks around the 20th.

I have no doubt these guys are telling the truth as they see it. But NOT hunting isn't an option. So may as well put as many things in the plus column as possible.

My experience is the bucks will move all day looking for love if the weather is cold and 0 is cold in my book even though its not unusual to get that for a few weeks where I live.

I see an issue if you spot "him," getting to him as he moves on to find more love.

1500 vertical feet to get to the deer baring heavy snow will be a challenge too, specially for a 50+ guy.

And having to develop a new load, for a new gun adds to the difficulty factor.

But everything I've read, plus the points I made will enhance the satisfaction of success.

Good luck guys.
 
I'm shooting for getting there on the 12th and staying as long as I can get away or until I get my deer. I'm sure the peak of the rut varies year to year and region to region but from what I've read there should be rut activity throughout the month of Nov so the weather will play a bigger role. The colder it is the longer those bucks will be on their feet chasing does. I'm pretty confident we will all find deer, im going to use the same tactic I've used on other mule deer rut hunts which is cover ground until I find a pocket that holds some deer and then focus on that area until a big boy shows up or I'm convinced there isn't one in the area. Rule of thumb for me has always been just find deer, if you find does just watch them and eventually a buck will show up. The toughest obstacle I've found hunting them in the rut (I've only done archery) is getting on them once you find one you want to go after. To your point of scaling a mountain in a short amount of time, while being stealthy and playing the wind will be a challenge to say the least. If you glass up a big buck checking out does and they aren't in heat he could be a mile away before you get to them. This has happened to me many times. I'm curious if anyone knows what the laws are in Idaho when it comes to radio contact while hunting them, that's a tactic used a lot in other states. If you have someone on the glass while your making your stalk....or climb and they are in radio contact it can make a huge difference in your success as chances are you will loose sight at some point during the stalk. Again this is all new territory for me and these methods may be incorrect I just know they serve people well in other areas.
 
This unit is different. The deer numbers are so low, the bucks I watched in 2015 on the 10th and 11th of November stayed with their small groups (2-4 does). They did not cruise or range far, like you will typically experience during rut hunts or when your antelope hunting during the rut.

There are NOT other bucks to go run off or other does to go find.

I watched small groups of deer, over several days for a few hours at a time, in 2015. Temps of about zero with 10" of snow. 3 of us separated and hunted for 5 full days. None of us spotted any bucks cruising.

It will work out in your favor for stalks with a muzzleloader. The bucks won't move. But it will take you 2 days to find some deer. Check the bottom of the foothills where they meet the flats. More specifically, the creek bottoms with quakies/aspens that look they should be on a post card.
 
I would just like to back up what Idahoron, twosnow18 and others have said as being truthful. You have been given a lot of good information in this thread that will help you set up realistic expectations and preparations for this hunt. Being in good physical shape so you can climb the hills would be one of the most important things you can do to prepare for this hunt. Even if you don't tag a big buck, just spending time in some beautiful Idaho mountains during the mule deer rut will make it worth your time.
 
Willywalnuts,
The rut should peak around the 3rd week of November but all it takes is one hot doe to see rutting activity.
Currently Idaho doesn't have many restrictions on radio/cell phone use. The current laws mostly restrict communication between hunters on the ground and those in airplanes. They have been talking about restricting that more so make sure you keep up to date on any rule changes that happen before you hunt.
Being in good physical shape and quickly climbing the hills is going to be a greater benefit than having radio communication.
About 10 years ago I stopped and talked with a guy who was giving radio assistance to his friend climbing up the hill in unit 51. The stalk was unsuccessful because he was too slow trying to climb the hill.
If you can't climb the hills day after day, it will limit your ability to be successful on this hunt.
Good luck. I hope you come back and post a picture with a nice buck.
 
>As much as I disagree with
>Idahoron often times on this
>forum, and his good old
>days rhetoric, his info is
>very accurate for the Lemhi
>Zone.


I must have made an impression on you but I don't know what your talking about.
 
Thanks Brian,
We spend a lot of time chasing blacktail up and down the mountains out here but probably don't get much over 5000 feet so I'm sure it will be a bit of a shock to the body. Especially if here's snow! Does anyone on here have any knowledge on the Knight Ultra Lights? Western Edition. I just ordered one, read great reviews on it. They say it weighs 6lbs so that might lighten my load a bit
 
>Does anyone on here have
>any knowledge on the Knight
>Ultra Lights? Western Edition. I
>just ordered one, read great
>reviews on it. They say
>it weighs 6lbs so that
>might lighten my load a
>bit

They are good guns. The bigger problem is the sights. The gun is accurate out to 300 yards maybe more. The sights are 150 yards MAX with a 6 o clock hold. And in my opinion that might be too far for those sights. 100 might be a better range. You can add good quality peep sights to that rifle.
I added some good ones to my knight MK85. Not the same gun but the same barrel. It shoots well out to 250.
When I added the Lyman 17 AHB front sight it raised the front sight a lot. So I had to shim the back sight to even things out.

OGXCidf.jpg


QSPL1Rf.jpg


6Xb7qpC.jpg


After the sights were raised I needed a cheek rest. I got one off of amazon that works great.

7MAWVW8.jpg


This is my son shooting at 250 yards.

aLB11cG.jpg


This is the target at 250 yards. You can see how they are numbered how he tuned it in.

PhxVGj7.jpg


In this picture you can see there is two hits slightly off the right side of center. Same spot as hits number 7 and 8 on the target.

ENxd2kv.jpg


There is a lot of talk about good guns but it is the sights that are as, if not more important. Without good sights you might as well be shooting a CVA. ( that was a joke)
 
I know those musket balls don't fly well in the wind. Plan for wind. Evan at moderate ranges know how to adjust or pass.

Depth of snow can be a problem, but frankly in the 4 trips in November I've been in that unit, it wasn't. Matt on the other hand had one where it was.

Kalielkslayer, I like your attitude.
 
>I know those musket balls don't
>fly well in the wind.
> Plan for wind.
>Evan at moderate ranges know
>how to adjust or pass.
>


That is for sure!!
 
Thanks for all the input Ron,
I finally hit the range today for the first time and I see what your saying about the sights. I adjusted them at 100yrds and was ten ringing it, I'm not even hitting paper at 200yrds and my front beed completely blocks the entire paper target, I ended up just trying to aim for the top figuring it's dropping substantially and still wasn't on paper. I was shooting 110 grain charge with 295 grain power belts. Any suggestions would be much appreciated regarding your recommended grains and powder charge so I can get more consistent at range. It looks as though I will have to change sights per your recommendation as well, had to max mine out to the top just to get it perfect at 100
 
>Thanks for all the input Ron,
>
>I finally hit the range today
>for the first time and
>I see what your saying
>about the sights. I adjusted
>them at 100yrds and was
>ten ringing it, I'm not
>even hitting paper at 200yrds
>and my front beed completely
>blocks the entire paper target,
>I ended up just trying
>to aim for the top
>figuring it's dropping substantially and
>still wasn't on paper. I
>was shooting 110 grain charge
>with 295 grain power belts.
>Any suggestions would be much
>appreciated regarding your recommended grains
>and powder charge so I
>can get more consistent at
>range. It looks as though
>I will have to change
>sights per your recommendation as
>well, had to max mine
>out to the top just
>to get it perfect at
>100


Most guys that are stuck with those type of sights are using a 6 o-clock hold. That way the top of the front sight hits just below the "10" ring. I can't do that. I end up holding the front bead dead on.

I shoot paper patched 460 grain Lee 500 S&W bullets. My peep sights are adjustable so I set the sight for the shot. I use the range finder get the distance set the sight and take the shot. I don't like to hold over or under. That is guessing and I don't trust that at all.
What was your rifle?
 
It's the knight ultra lite western edition. I read an article that seemed pretty informative on the sight's seemed to also be addressing the same problem.

https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/increased-accuracy-from-an-open-sight-muzzleloader

I like your idea of the adjustable rear site though, any recommendations for those? I don't mind the 6 o'clock hold so much the problem I had was the beed completely covered up the target at distance, just not fine enough for my taste.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-17 AT 10:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-17 AT 10:33?PM (MST)

>It's the knight ultra lite western
>edition. I read an article
>that seemed pretty informative on
>the sight's seemed to also
>be addressing the same problem.
>
>
>https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/increased-accuracy-from-an-open-sight-muzzleloader
>

He got his ideas from me I am sure. No one was using Lyman globes with Lee Shavers peeps until I did it.
He should have went the extra step and added a Williams FP peep like I did to allow himself to be able to adjust the sight for the shot. Some day he will figure it out and be the "trend" setter.

You can add a front sight just like I did, or he did. But it is going to make that rear sight too low. Your going to need a shim like I had in my pictures.

The way I would do it if I had a rifle like yours is I would buy a weaver scope mount that fit on one of the set of screws for the scope mount. The rear one would be best but if you have to use the forward one it would work. Take the weaver mount and sand it flat to take off the grove on the top for the ring. Then take a williams FP sight with a flat top for the Knight MK85 and mount it to the top of the weaver base. If the mount holes don't match don't worry. Just drill and tap the scope mount and use screws that are short enough that they don't go all the way through. I am assuming that your front sight is the same or close to mine. If it is then my shim I made is .189" thick. If your modified weaver base was that thick from the top of the receiver to the top of the weaver base you would be very close to the thickness you need I think.

The williams FP sight with target knobs and a Gib Lock screw is what I have in my pictures. The front sight is a Lyman 17 AHB

QSPL1Rf.jpg


OGXCidf.jpg
 
Eventually Idahoron this set up will become the standard sites for most top end muzzle loaders right from the dealer. If it doesn't become the standard it will definitely be a dealer option. We all know your a pioneer on this set up. Thank you for helping others with your hard earned knowledge. It is greatly appreciated.
 
Idaho Ron is very knowledgeable and that is where I learned about how to set up my muzzleloader with that Lyman globe and that Williams FP rear sight. I took it one step further myself and customized my front globe with a homemade crosshair insert. I ground out the center posts that came with the Lyman globe and I soldered in some fine crosshair wires and now I am able to see a paper plate at 300 yards with this set up I haven't tried the the shaver insert yet but now I really don't think I need to as I'm happy with the way my gun shoots now.
 
>Eventually Idahoron this set up will
>become the standard sites for
>most top end muzzle loaders
>right from the dealer. If
>it doesn't become the standard
>it will definitely be a
>dealer option. We all know
>your a pioneer on this
>set up. Thank you for
>helping others with your hard
>earned knowledge. It is greatly
>appreciated.

Your welcome.
I am actually shocked that this type of set up has been completely over looked by all the companies. The sights they throw together are just to get the gun out the door so they can put a scope on them. A well set up and regulated set of sights would be a great addition to the western line up of rifles.
 
I had a great trip, looks like it hit it just right timing wise. The first two days I was glassing up smaller bucks, by the third day I found two nice bucks one in the 180 class and one much bigger. It seemed as though the younger bucks had mostly moved down into the mahogany foothills and were chasing like crazy and the better class deer were still up higher with their does. I made I hike after the two bigger deer the morning of the fourth day and got to within 160 yards and went to shoot and the powder didn't ignite...ran three caps through my gun while the deer just stood there looking at me. This was after a three hour hike up the mountain through the snow so a little demoralizing. I took precautions covering the muzzle and breach but there was a lot of moisture in the air and condensation. On the last evening I got a 200 yard shot on a nice 4x4. I unfortunately hit him in the leg and wasn?t able to recover him that evening. I went back the next morning and glasses him up bedded down in a mahogany finger. I played the wind knowing he wasn?t going anywhere and hiked up and around him as the thermals were blowing up the mountain. As I was coming down I noticed a black Dodge Ram slow down along the highway, they obviously saw my truck and wanted to see what I was doing. They then proceeded to park about 100feet from my truck and started working their way up the hill toward my deer. Being directly up wind from him the deer soon jumped up and started hobbling off and the guy shot him before I could get down in time. It took him three shots to finally kill the deer and I walked up about five minutes after. Needles to say it's pretty disappointing when people don't put in their own work and choose to look for vehicles and people to locate deer. And then to shoot a buck that was clearly wounded knowing I was there to kill that deer (I'm sure they saw me working down the mountain toward him) the guy apppoligized and said he noticed my truck but wasn?t sure if I was hunting. You could tell he felt pretty sheepish about the whole thing and had his kid with him so I just walked around their truck got in mine and left. Either way I'm glad the buck isn't suffering and I had a great trip, amazing country and given the horror stories of the prior winter and the comments by some made on this thread I was pleasantly suppressed and the quantity and quality of deer I encountered (20-30 bucks a day) I passed on multiple deer a day and felt good about it knowing the potential I had seen. I will definatley put in for this hunt again, it took me a couple days to figure them out like most places and my only regret was not giving myself more time to get it done. Hope this helps, and maybe will discourage people from doing what that guy did. My advise to anyone like that is if you see a truck parked off the highway in a unit where the season is open don't stop and see what they are doing. Be respectful and go find your own ground, god knows it's a big unit and plenty of deer out there. Let people enjoy their hunt just like you hope too.
 
Another side note,
I have a ton more respect for guys that hunt these muzzleloaders with open sites. I have mostly done archery and a bit of rifle here and there and have been successful and lucky with both having only wounded and not recovered one animal in fifteen years. Once I zero?d the gun in at 100 and 200 yards using the peep set up Idaho Ron suggested I gave it very little thought and basically viewed it as a rifle hunt where anything within 250 yards was dead. I was wrong to do this, I'm sure everyone gets buck fever to some extent but a lot of people can control it and id like to believe I'm one of them. I certainly don't feel shaky when drawing back or sighting in an animal. The amount of drop you get with these guns and the difference it makes when shooting up hill or down plays a huge factor compared to a rifle, I should have practiced much more than I did at these type of shots and also done a better job of protecting my powder from the weather. I'm amazed the civil war isn't still going on today give how sensitive they are to the elements.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-17 AT 05:36PM (MST)[p]I was able to harvest this blacktail with my bow this year, as well as one other, a mule deer and elk in CO and a whitetail in Illinois. Overall an amazing 2017 and I thoroughly enjoyed my time in Idaho and The Mackay area.

42378deer3.jpg



13285deer4.jpg


66801deer8.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-17 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]
Lol odaho.
Someone stole your deer. Law says whoever draws first blood. Must not have been nice enough to go get the deer your legally wounded I'm sure the nice man would have understood.
 
That's funny you say that, the first thing I did was call a buddy from the area and he thought it was whoever ends the deers life. Wish I knew that then, I video?d walking up to them and the deer and where it had been wounded and the whole thing. Like I said he had a 12yr old boy with him (teaching him good morals) so I didn't want to make a big stink out of it.
 
Whoever kills and tags the animal is the one who gets it. First blood doesn't matter. I think I am right but could be wrong.
 
It's a grey area, one of those their words against mine thing. Although judging by the guys reaction I don't think he would have put up much of a fight. I was more pissed about them seeing my truck and pulling up than anything. They shouldn't have been there in the first place but I guess that's public land hunting for you. He was a decent buck, not really what I went there for. Nice deep front forks and decent spread but very little mass. I took a picture of the deer I'll try and post it
 
I have seen animals that limped and had been that way for a long time. People have no way of knowing if you shot one or if it was limping for other reasons. Not really a grey area, whoever kills and tags the animal takes possession of it. As far as seeing your truck and keep driving I don't think you own the mountain. Was it inconsiderate, probably but that happens. I guess you would do better on a private hunting ranch so you would have the place and all the bucks to yourself. To each their own I guess.
 
I don't think you have to hunt private land to be considerate of people, but that's just me. When I'm hunting and I see vehicles or signs of people I avoid that area. Not just to be considerate of them but because I'm there to get away from them. Everyone has their own opinion
 
Does that mean your the guy that saw my truck and decided to park next to it and glass the area to see what was going on? Does that accusation make you feel incomfortable? Haha probably because if that was you you would feel like a jackass!!! Don?t defend the wrong people man, that's not hunting. At least not the hunting I know
 
Glad to know your an expert on why animals are limping. Do you ask them why? Is that how you determine how long they have been in pain? Look I get what your point is, your out hunting and a wounded animal comes out in front of you, you shoot it right! This situation is a little different, these people stopped because they saw my truck, they got out because they glassed me up and In turn glassed up the deer I was hunting. That's a lame move, they knew it. Don?t try to defend them, unless that's how you hunt
 
Would you see people hunting an animal and purposely stop your vehicle and try to get that animal first? Are you saying I should hunt private land or expect that type of behavior? Haha I honestly wasn?t that pissed off about it until you made the comment about the whole owning the mountain thing. No one ownes the mountain that's the point, or everyone does. Either way if you want to act like a dumb ass that's your choice but don't expect wveryone else to act like one too
 
I guess my point is that everyone hunts different and we can't expect people to do things the way that we view as right. Unfortunately that is what happens on public land. Hope you had a good hunt and enjoyed Idaho.
 
Thanks for posting an update I've en following this thread the entire time. I've had a couple of buddies that have tried this hunt with no luck. Glad you had a good time. To bad that happened to you. Like you said before that's public land. I fall on the same side as you. If a truck is parked at the head of the canyon or side of the road I move on. Big country.
 
Yeah, if you are moving in on a wounded animal for a kill shot, and somebody stops and hunts the buck you are hunting, that guy is in the wrong. You are right, and having anybody try to tell you different is only because they don't know right from wrong. Can't believe some people on here.
 
Thanks man,
For a minute I thought I was in the minority there. Probably won't be the last time something like that happens, I just always assume when you get a limited draw like that the allure is getting to hunt good ground without dealing with the crowds you experience in a general season hunt. With the amount of deer I saw on a daily basis it just seemed super unnecessary for them to do that....I think cherry pickers would be an appropriate term haha
 
How about some pics of all the bucks. Sure a young guy like you didn't go in the field without the ability to post up some.
 
I'll do my best, had some difficulties uploading those blacktail pics it turned into quite a pain. I've got a few pictures of some decent bucks through my spotting scope but spent very little time taking pictures and far more time hunting.
 
Of course you did. Uploading is easy, but if you need help you can email them to me and I'll do it for ya.
 
It's always interesting to read the comments on situations like this. It certainly shows you the caliber (low) of the guys in the field. Does a guy own the woods? certainly not. However if someone sees a guy stalking a deer, should they try to beat them to it? Not if they are at all sportsmanlike. Of course, there is no way to know if they actually saw you. Do you shoot a deer that appears to be wounded? EVERY TIME! If only to put the deer out of its misery. However, once they learned that the deer was wounded and you appeared, the right thing to do wound be to give you the deer. My guess is that the hunter will always know in the back of his mind that he took someone else's buck. Maybe that's how he has to do it. I have heard many a story about guys claiming someone's animal because they shot it while it was on its "death run" from someone else's shot. Ethics are a dying commodity in the woods and it is a sad thing.
 

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