Is it Me or the Rifle?

BGbasbhat

Very Active Member
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Tired of the mediocrity of my rifle shooting, i've been going down the rabbit hole of where the weak point is in my pursuit of precision.

Bought in 2007 brand new, Rem 700 SPS in 300 WinMag. Topped with a Leupold VXIII, TriggerTech trigger, B&C Alaskan Wilderness stock, probably 700-1K shot count (really never counted).

Little to no research or functional practice of my form/technique in the past, always just thought it was a 1.25-1.5" rifle. Not great but maybe expected out of an off the shelf Rem700.

Been trying to concentrate on my prone/bench form, and theme is there always seems to be a flier in the group of 3........So what do you all think? Is it....

My fault and flinching or form error on 2nd or 3rd shot?
OR
Rifle's fault and I'm just getting lucky putting two shots sub-MOA?

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I'll check torque again. If I recall Leupold says 28in/lbs, so did 3.25 newton-meters with my brother in law's mountain bike tool.
 
Any rifle work aside, I still do need to upgrade the scope. The current is a VXIII 3.5-10x50, which I do really like, but just a fine duplex reticle and no dials means I'm guessing a bit out here in the west. And if this rifle is really shooting ok (seems 2 of my 3 shots!) then, i'll have more confidence past mpbr.
 
Is it a Sendero?
I have a couple buddy’s with around the same count that the barrel was shot out by then.
Just another thing to look at.
 
I have 5 hunting rifles- all good to better systems. In each rifle, I have loads that consistently shoot 0.5 to .75. I also have loads that shoot 1.5 to 2 in the same rifle. I could show you 12 test groups with different powders/charges and COAL that demonstrate exactly that.

Before you worry about scope, or rifle, I would try different loads. If your gun doesn't like a particular bullet, or powder burn rate, or distance from the lands, or actual speed down that barrel, it may shoot poorly.
 
I would agree with HikeHunt61. I think that is all the load/rifle combo may be capable of. With different ammunition it could shoot better or possibly worse. If the scope had a problem, It wouldn't be holding zero. If you are having to zero the scope on a regular basis, then there is a problem with the scope or rings. If you have had the same zero for several years, it is not the scope.

There are so many things that can affect accuracy. Hot barrel, dirty barrel, clean barrel, barrel harmonics, barrel contact with the stock, cheek weld, flinching, poor rest, bullet seating depth, faster vs slower velocity, inconsistent brass or other components, etc

If you can shoot that well under field conditions, that would be much better than most hunters you meet out west. That is 12 out of 12 shots within 1.5 MOA of top of orange square (I'm assuming you were shooting at 100 yards and gun is zeroed for 200 yards). Any guide would be thrilled if their hunter showed up to camp and was able to put four 3 shot groups like that with a 300 win mag.

You could try different factory ammunition and buy a bunch of the same lot if you find one your rifle shoots well. Or you could go down the rabbit hole of loading your own ammunition.

There are hunters that can shoot better than that but they invest significant $$$ in ammunition and/or loading supplies. They also invest significant time in practicing shooting thousands of rounds.

I have two 300 win mags. One is a Rem 700 I bought in the 90's and even with my hand loaded ammunition I can't get it to shoot much better than your rifle. The other is a custom rifle that shoots less than 1 MOA. However, I'm actually very happy if I can hit within 1 MOA of my target on the 1st shot under field conditions (getting a good rest quickly in the field, calculating wind, calculating range, etc) . Very very few hunters hit within 1 MOA under field conditions on 10 out of 10 shots at 300-600 yards. If any of you think you are that good, I would bet you $1000 to see it.

If you really want to become a better shooter, consider purchasing a 223 (or other cheap cartridge you can shoot a lot). I enjoy shooting my 300 win mags and 338 lapua but they are not enjoyable to shoot 100+ rounds in an afternoon. I can shoot one of my 223's all day long and still enjoy it.
 
Any rifle work aside, I still do need to upgrade the scope. The current is a VXIII 3.5-10x50, which I do really like, but just a fine duplex reticle and no dials means I'm guessing a bit out here in the west. And if this rifle is really shooting ok (seems 2 of my 3 shots!) then, i'll have more confidence past mpbr.

Kenton Industries sells turrets for that scope.

 
If you are not sure if it is you or the rifle, then I would put the rifle in a lead sled or something like that and try some different cartridges. This will help you figure out if it is you or something else. I like the suggestion to try some lighter bullets. If you know that you want another scope then go ahead and get that upgraded as soon as possible, but that is probably not going to fix this issue.

I wasted many years trying to make mediocre guns shoot sub MOA, and then I bought a CA Ridgeline in 7 RM. I’m not trying to promote CA, but this particular one shoots accurately with most factory ammo and hand loads.
 
All on the reloading, thank you for those thoughts. My dad reloads for me, but lately been trying to grab quality factory rounds to further weed out human errors (either me or my dad's reloading process).
My thought was find a factory bullet/weight that the rifle likes and then try to mimic that with cheaper reloading.
 
Not really light recently. 150s were always squirrely, 165-170gr seemed better, but been reading about "heavy for caliber" is generally better for accuracy. I think stock twist is 1:10
It is a 10 twist and will handle bullets up to 215/220gr. The 180gr is a good choice in the 300win.

Is the rifle bedded? Barrel free floated?
 
Honest question, have you brass brushed the **** out of it lately with good copper and lead cleaner?
For those 12 shots the other day, I am still getting a pile of blue patches. Hoppe's Elite to soak, brush, wet patch and repeat. I'll try and upload a video I took with a little borescope I have. Don't really have context of what it should be like, but thought it odd I see copper in the grooves in the end half of the barrel, but not in the front half
 
For those 12 shots the other day, I am still getting a pile of blue patches. Hoppe's Elite to soak, brush, wet patch and repeat. I'll try and upload a video I took with a little borescope I have. Don't really have context of what it should be like, but thought it odd I see copper in the grooves in the end half of the barrel, but not in the front half
Are you using a coated jag for your patches? If not you can get false readings of copper.
I would recommend a dedicated copper solvent also. I use boretech products and love them. Eliminator and their Cu+2for copper.

 
If you are not sure if it is you or the rifle, then I would put the rifle in a lead sled or something like that and try some different cartridges. This will help you figure out if it is you or something else. I like the suggestion to try some lighter bullets. If you know that you want another scope then go ahead and get that upgraded as soon as possible, but that is probably not going to fix this issue.

I wasted many years trying to make mediocre guns shoot sub MOA, and then I bought a CA Ridgeline in 7 RM. I’m not trying to promote CA, but this particular one shoots accurately with most factory ammo and hand loads.
I've read a bit on lead sleds and seems to always get into a pissing match over what they should be used for. I have one, and would think it would take the "human" out of the equation (which is exactly what I want to do), but then people start going down the road of if it's realistic, different harmonics due to recoil vs shoulder, different forend point vs bipod, blah blah blah.
 
Are you using a coated jag for your patches? If not you can get false readings of copper.
I would recommend a dedicated copper solvent also. I use boretech products and love them. Eliminator and their Cu+2for copper.

Jag is just cheap plastic with carbon fiber rod. If i'm still getting blue (with a plastic jag) I've figured i'll keep on brushing till no more. Could I get a false reading with a brass brush? After ### shots, will a barrel gather more copper than one that is new...subsequently impacting accuracy unless you get it all out?
 
Jag is just cheap plastic with carbon fiber rod. If i'm still getting blue (with a plastic jag) I've figured i'll keep on brushing till no more. Could I get a false reading with a brass brush? After ### shots, will a barrel gather more copper than one that is new...subsequently impacting accuracy unless you get it all out?
Factory barrels can be hit or miss. Rough tooling barrels, tooling marks, inconsistent bore diameter etc. Normally a barrel breaks in after about 120-140 rounds.
If you want to try and remove the copper fouling quickly you can get some JB bore paste and use an undersized brush with a solvent soaked patch wrapped around it and the JB paste. It may even smooth the bore a bit.

You should be able to reload and find something that works also. Might have to try a few powders/bullets to find a good combo.
 
Factory gun, factory ammo. Some of them will only shoot so good. That may be it. Want to get more precise. Going to need to invest in what it takes. Better gun (i.e barrel) and learn to reload. With all the time money and energy that takes for the discipline.

That said, Those groups are good enough to hunt with. If that’s what you’re looking for. Good. If one ragged hole and knowing exactly what your bullets are going to do every time is what you want it’s time to take the next step
 
I've read a bit on lead sleds and seems to always get into a pissing match over what they should be used for. I have one, and would think it would take the "human" out of the equation (which is exactly what I want to do), but then people start going down the road of if it's realistic, different harmonics due to recoil vs shoulder, different forend point vs bipod, blah blah blah.


The lead sled is obviously not realistic for hunting, but if the gun can shoot bug holes with a lead sled then it tells you that the problem is not the gun, ammo, or scope (even if the harmonics are different from shoulder).
 
Look at the barrel with a good bore scope. Check the stock to action fit , and maybe bed the action . Make sure the barrel is free floated. Clean it with a good copper cleaner and then with Iosso bore paste. ce61
 
Look at the barrel with a good bore scope. Check the stock to action fit , and maybe bed the action . Make sure the barrel is free floated. Clean it with a good copper cleaner and then with Iosso bore paste. ce61
ce61, not sure if it will work, but I pasted a borescope video in a post above. Link below if you are able to see, not sure if you need a Google account or whatever to view it.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EJT5FXUbpPkuXwcn9
 
I would agree with HikeHunt61. I think that is all the load/rifle combo may be capable of. With different ammunition it could shoot better or possibly worse. If the scope had a problem, It wouldn't be holding zero. If you are having to zero the scope on a regular basis, then there is a problem with the scope or rings. If you have had the same zero for several years, it is not the scope.

There are so many things that can affect accuracy. Hot barrel, dirty barrel, clean barrel, barrel harmonics, barrel contact with the stock, cheek weld, flinching, poor rest, bullet seating depth, faster vs slower velocity, inconsistent brass or other components, etc

If you can shoot that well under field conditions, that would be much better than most hunters you meet out west. That is 12 out of 12 shots within 1.5 MOA of top of orange square (I'm assuming you were shooting at 100 yards and gun is zeroed for 200 yards). Any guide would be thrilled if their hunter showed up to camp and was able to put four 3 shot groups like that with a 300 win mag.

You could try different factory ammunition and buy a bunch of the same lot if you find one your rifle shoots well. Or you could go down the rabbit hole of loading your own ammunition.

There are hunters that can shoot better than that but they invest significant $$$ in ammunition and/or loading supplies. They also invest significant time in practicing shooting thousands of rounds.

I have two 300 win mags. One is a Rem 700 I bought in the 90's and even with my hand loaded ammunition I can't get it to shoot much better than your rifle. The other is a custom rifle that shoots less than 1 MOA. However, I'm actually very happy if I can hit within 1 MOA of my target on the 1st shot under field conditions (getting a good rest quickly in the field, calculating wind, calculating range, etc) . Very very few hunters hit within 1 MOA under field conditions on 10 out of 10 shots at 300-600 yards. If any of you think you are that good, I would bet you $1000 to see it.

If you really want to become a better shooter, consider purchasing a 223 (or other cheap cartridge you can shoot a lot). I enjoy shooting my 300 win mags and 338 lapua but they are not enjoyable to shoot 100+ rounds in an afternoon. I can shoot one of my 223's all day long and still enjoy it.
This is great info here. I can’t stand a rifle that doesn’t make them touch and there’s only so much hair I can pull out. Nothing frustrates me more than trying to figure out the problem. Some people enjoy it. If you’ve hit the point where you’re done I would start with a new quality barrel, bedding the action and making sure that barrel is free floating.

BTW can I take that $1000 bet?
 
Free floating the barrel is good. So is the rifles action actually bedded into your B&C stock or is it just torqued down into the stock? Yes, those newer b&c stocks have a full length aluminum structure, but each action is has a smidge difference from one another. Sometimes you can just screw your action down and it'll shoot fine, sometimes the action will still require to be bedded. Second, you're shooting reloads but have you actually worked up load data for a particular bullet. I read through the posts but didn't see that. There will be a sweet spot for each bullet, with that particular powder and charge you're using. And some guns will like heavier vs lighter bullets. Bonded bullets vs soft bullets vs mono bullets. Premium factory ammunition still may not shoot worth a darn from your rifle, and it could just be a finicky barrel which may take a lot of experimenting with different bullet and powders. I have several Rem 700's, stock barrels and all showed improvements with a properly bedded action and free floated barrel with proper bullet load development. So, start with your rifles foundation FIRST. That first group shown has promise.
 
This is great info here. I can’t stand a rifle that doesn’t make them touch and there’s only so much hair I can pull out. Nothing frustrates me more than trying to figure out the problem. Some people enjoy it. If you’ve hit the point where you’re done I would start with a new quality barrel, bedding the action and making sure that barrel is free floating.

BTW can I take that $1000 bet?
Brian and Marley, yep, great info (as well as everybody else chiming in).

I am the type to want a cloverleaf group, and I also have limited hair to pull out, or time in the pursuit thereof (early-40s, 3 kids, 60hrs a week)! But I know half-inch MOA doesn't just happen by throwing $ at it either.

To what others have said also, it seems overwhelming to do a ton of load testing, I don't know how you guys do it! The more reading I do, the more I go down that rabbit hole also. Multiple bullets X different powders X varying charges......could be dozens of different loads to cook up......which none of which matter if I'm not doing my job behind the rifle or maybe scope is off, etc.
 
BTW, I think many people agree that Barnes TSX are one of the best bullets to test rifle accuracy. If a rifle can’t shoot Barnes TSX factory loads with satisfactory precision then I would not waste my time trying to find cartridges that work any better.
 
Brian and Marley, yep, great info (as well as everybody else chiming in).

I am the type to want a cloverleaf group, and I also have limited hair to pull out, or time in the pursuit thereof (early-40s, 3 kids, 60hrs a week)! But I know half-inch MOA doesn't just happen by throwing $ at it either.

To what others have said also, it seems overwhelming to do a ton of load testing, I don't know how you guys do it! The more reading I do, the more I go down that rabbit hole also. Multiple bullets X different powders X varying charges......could be dozens of different loads to cook up......which none of which matter if I'm not doing my job behind the rifle or maybe scope is off, etc.
Don't forget to weigh your bullets and weigh your cases, then group accordingly, neck turning, etc. .... ;)

Whatever you do, I think it wise to make one change at a time.
 
Don't forget to weigh your bullets and weigh your cases, then group accordingly, neck turning, etc. .... ;)

Whatever you do, I think it wise to make one change at a time.
Lol, yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for an easy fix, but when you find yourself in a benchrest forum talking about load specifics, it gets scary.

Yep, agree with one change at a time!
 
Brian and Marley, yep, great info (as well as everybody else chiming in).

I am the type to want a cloverleaf group, and I also have limited hair to pull out, or time in the pursuit thereof (early-40s, 3 kids, 60hrs a week)! But I know half-inch MOA doesn't just happen by throwing $ at it either.

To what others have said also, it seems overwhelming to do a ton of load testing, I don't know how you guys do it! The more reading I do, the more I go down that rabbit hole also. Multiple bullets X different powders X varying charges......could be dozens of different loads to cook up......which none of which matter if I'm not doing my job behind the rifle or maybe scope is off, etc.
Throwing money at it will absolutely get you what you want. You could go through powder, bullets and primers til you go mad and it may never get any better. Getting a good factory barrel is pure luck. Think about how many times they probably use the same reamer before they toss it. I guarantee if you threw a new Benchmark or Krieger barrel on it machined by a skilled gunsmith, bed the action, it would definitely tighten up. My gunsmith won’t give me a rifle until it’s shooting same hole. That way if I can’t shoot the same hole he can prove it’s my fault. The nice thing about a custom rifle is you get to see how it shoots before you pay for it. These groups are from three separate rifles all built by the same guy.

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Brian and Marley, yep, great info (as well as everybody else chiming in).

I am the type to want a cloverleaf group, and I also have limited hair to pull out, or time in the pursuit thereof (early-40s, 3 kids, 60hrs a week)! But I know half-inch MOA doesn't just happen by throwing $ at it either.

To what others have said also, it seems overwhelming to do a ton of load testing, I don't know how you guys do it! The more reading I do, the more I go down that rabbit hole also. Multiple bullets X different powders X varying charges......could be dozens of different loads to cook up......which none of which matter if I'm not doing my job behind the rifle or maybe scope is off, etc.
its a lot of work
 
Throwing money at it will absolutely get you what you want. You could go through powder, bullets and primers til you go mad and it may never get any better. Getting a good factory barrel is pure luck. Think about how many times they probably use the same reamer before they toss it. I guarantee if you threw a new Benchmark or Krieger barrel on it machined by a skilled gunsmith, bed the action, it would definitely tighten up. My gunsmith won’t give me a rifle until it’s shooting same hole. That way if I can’t shoot the same hole he can prove it’s my fault. The nice thing about a custom rifle is you get to see how it shoots before you pay for it. These groups are from three separate rifles all built by the same guy.
Geez marley, that's what i'm talking about right there! But yeah, I know throwing $ will do it, but I still gotta do my job as the shooter.
Are all those groups from your gunsmith on a sled/clamp setup?

The lead sled conversation is winning me over to confirm capabilities of setup. I could care less about "point of impact/change of zero", if I can shoot holes like yours from a sled, then I know 100% the rest is up to me...which is what I want!
 
Geez marley, that's what i'm talking about right there! But yeah, I know throwing $ will do it, but I still gotta do my job as the shooter.
Are all those groups from your gunsmith on a sled/clamp setup?

The lead sled conversation is winning me over to confirm capabilities of setup. I could care less about "point of impact/change of zero", if I can shoot holes like yours from a sled, then I know 100% the rest is up to me...which is what I want!
These groups are all my groups. Definitely bag the lead sled! The lead sled will change the harmonics of the barrel. You could find a load that works great with the lead sled and then the second you take it away they'll be all over the place. The lead sled can also be extremely harsh on a scope with a high recoiling rifle like your 300 WM. All of these groups are from a front bipod and a rear bag on a bench.

I really think that you are trying to achieve custom rifle accuracy from a factory rifle. Not saying that it can't be done and several people on here can probably show you a great group from their factory rifle but in my experience that is a rare find.
 
Geez marley, that's what i'm talking about right there! But yeah, I know throwing $ will do it, but I still gotta do my job as the shooter.
Are all those groups from your gunsmith on a sled/clamp setup?

The lead sled conversation is winning me over to confirm capabilities of setup. I could care less about "point of impact/change of zero", if I can shoot holes like yours from a sled, then I know 100% the rest is up to me...which is what I want!
Lead Sled= Junk!! Don’t fall for that gimmick. Get yourself a good set of bags and a bipod if you use one for hunting and practice proper setup.
One trick that has helped me is get setup on your target/bullseye with your crosshairs. Close your eyes for a few seconds while staying on the rifle. Open them and see if you are still on target. If your crosshairs have drifted off adjust your setup to correct and repeat the process.
 
Geez marley, that's what i'm talking about right there! But yeah, I know throwing $ will do it, but I still gotta do my job as the shooter.
Are all those groups from your gunsmith on a sled/clamp setup?

The lead sled conversation is winning me over to confirm capabilities of setup. I could care less about "point of impact/change of zero", if I can shoot holes like yours from a sled, then I know 100% the rest is up to me...which is what I want!
lead sleds are trash. they will not help or replace proper form/recoil management. your gun will jump more in a lead sled then good shooting form
 
Thank you both for the perspective. marley, I think you are right, obviously a ragged 3-shot hole would be ideal (and of course an aspiration); however, I get what you're saying, like trying to win the Indianapolis 500 while driving a Mustang with just a couple bolt-on mods.

I think going back to the original intent of the post, I would be 100% happy with 2 of the 3 shots in those groups with good factory hunting ammo. However, that damn flyer shot on every group is driving me nuts. Puts a good 1/2 inch group to "crap" and I just don't know why.
 
Full custom build, tons of load development, shooting off a bipod and a sand bag. It’s completely possible but again you have to acknowledge the equipment and ammo you are shooting.

For what you have your groups are really pretty good

Ballistic-X-Export-2022-07-20 21:42:56.647704.jpeg
 
What bipod/bag setup do you guys use? I've been reading on "loading" the bipod and straight back recoil (gunwerks info). The Caldwell/Harris bipod I use is ok, but doesn't really allow for loading and flexing back with recoil, further seems to continue needing tightening to make sure it lines up level after a couple shots
 
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I’m not even sure. It’s probably an old Caldwell I shoot off the bench. Just a regular ole rear bag for the stock.

Practice, practice, practice. There’s no short cuts regardless of what the internet try’s to sell you.
 
yep, and what CAHunter said also about practice. My wife asked me why there is a thumb tack in the middle of the wall the other day in our house. Duh! For firing snap caps when I work from home obviously! Haha. She just looked at me weird and said, "Ok"...but i'm used to that response from her by now.
 
What bipod/bag setup do you guys use? I've been reading on "loading" the bipod and straight back recoil (gunwerks info). The Caldwell/Harris bipod I use is ok, but doesn't really allow for loading and flexing back with recoil, further seems to continue needing tightening to make sure it lines up level after a couple shots
as far as the front bipod I would recommend an Atlas. great bipod for the price. Theres better but they cost as much as your rifle.
 
The best way to look at a barrel with a borescope is through the chamber. You are looking for a carbon ring and carbon in the barrel, as well as screwed up rifling, yours looks okay, as far as the rifling goes. Try looking with the 90 degree mirror . Do all this after you clean with a good copper remover, like wipe out or boretech .
Then try cleaning with some Iosso, Also try doing a ladder test with powder, made in 3/10 s of a grain.
I have shot good groups with a Caldwell tack driver bag and a rear bag. You should be able to make that rifle a shooter with a little tweaking. Best of Luck! ce61
 
Accu-tac is also a great bipod and is about the same price as the atlas. Now that I think about it I think the accu-tac is a better buy.
 
Don't know what PRS style is. Enlighten me. mtmuley
You have to stand back from whatever barricade they have in front of you. Rifle in hand, mag in, bolt back, and all gear such as shooting bag, tripod etc has to be in your hands. No setting up the shot beforehand. Round is chambered after acquiring the target in the scope. Usually have 2 minutes to engage 10-12 rounds at various targets at various ranges or change shooting positions depending on the stage. Most targets are 1-1.5 MOA anywhere from 300 to 1200 yards.
 
You have to stand back from whatever barricade they have in front of you. Rifle in hand, mag in, bolt back, and all gear such as shooting bag, tripod etc has to be in your hands. No setting up the shot beforehand. Round is chambered after acquiring the target in the scope. Usually have 2 minutes to engage 10-12 rounds at various targets at various ranges or change shooting positions depending on the stage. Most targets are 1-1.5 MOA anywhere from 300 to 1200 yards.
Sounds like fun. Don't know why I need to do it for hunting scenarios. mtmuley
 
Sounds like fun. Don't know why I need to do it for hunting scenarios. mtmuley
It’s perfect for hunt scenarios. Very rarely get to shoot prone. Makes you learn to shoot from sometimes awkward positions and in a hurry. It has definitely made me a better long range shooter and to read the wind
 
This is great info here. I can’t stand a rifle that doesn’t make them touch and there’s only so much hair I can pull out. Nothing frustrates me more than trying to figure out the problem. Some people enjoy it. If you’ve hit the point where you’re done I would start with a new quality barrel, bedding the action and making sure that barrel is free floating.

BTW can I take that $1000 bet?
I’ll give you $1000 if you can hit 10 out of 10 shots within 1 MOA with random targets 300-600 yards out. It has to be with a rifle you carry while hunting and shot under field conditions. You miss one shot and I get $1000. I would prefer a windy day ;)

Either way and it would be worth my time. We would just need to find a time and place to set it up. I could do it almost anytime if you travel to southern NM.

I’ll send you a PM
 
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To me it looks like you’re pulling your flyers. What’s the lbs on the trigger? Maybe lighten it up ?
Yeah, that's what I'm hoping (me and not the equipment), but other valid questions got brought up as well like scope, free float/bedding, etc. Trigger is pretty light, I think 2ish from when i installed it a couple years ago.

If I was pulling, flinching, muscling, overgrip, etc. wouldn't the flyers generally go to the same area? Like low-left usually means anticipating recoil flinch, left is overgripping, etc...?

I'm probably doing a little bit of everything wrong relative to the flyer behavior in my OP
 
If I was pulling, flinching, muscling, overgrip, etc. wouldn't the flyers generally go to the same area? Like low-left usually means anticipating recoil flinch, left is overgripping, etc...?
You're not wrong about this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

However nobody muffs a shot exactly the same way every time. Accurate rifles are still pretty accurate in the hands of average shooters. The best shooters in the world can't make an average rifle more accurate.

You have an average rifle, either enjoy it or get out the checkbook.
 
I would think not
Yeah, that's what I'm hoping (me and not the equipment), but other valid questions got brought up as well like scope, free float/bedding, etc. Trigger is pretty light, I think 2ish from when i installed it a couple years ago.

If I was pulling, flinching, muscling, overgrip, etc. wouldn't the flyers generally go to the same area? Like low-left usually means anticipating recoil flinch, left is overgripping, etc...?

I'm probably doing a little bit of everything wrong relative to the flyer behavior in my OP
if these groups are from the same session then I’d say that it’s different issues that would be more related to the shooters. I’d wouldn’t consider how the rifle is built is gonna make a make these different group patterns, but that my experience, not to say it’s not.

I would think it’s more attributed to For example not looking square into the scope, or flicking on one shot, change of shouldering, grip etc.

That first group looks “normal” to me the others look like a shooters error. It’s the Indian not the arrow
 
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I would think not

if these groups are from the same session then I’d say that it’s different issues that would be more related to the shooters. I’d wouldn’t consider how the rifle is built is gonna make a make these different group patterns, but that my experience, not to say it’s not.

I would think it’s more attributed to For example not looking square into the scope, or flicking on one shot, change of shouldering, grip etc.

That first group looks “normal” to me the others look like a shooters error. It’s the Indian not the arrow
I think it’s the bow 😂.
 
I’ll give you $1000 if you can hit 10 out of 10 shots within 1 MOA with random targets 300-600 yards out. It has to be with a rifle you carry while hunting and shot under field conditions. You miss one shot and I get $1000. I would prefer a windy day ;)

Either way and it would be worth my time. We would just need to find a time and place to set it up. I could do it almost anytime if you travel to southern NM.

I’ll send you a PM
There's a gentleman here in Montana that does a shoot every spring called The Icebreaker. Some of the internet hotshots here should try that also. mtmuley
 
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I’ll give you $1000 if you can hit 10 out of 10 shots within 1 MOA with random targets 300-600 yards out. It has to be with a rifle you carry while hunting and shot under field conditions. You miss one shot and I get $1000. I would prefer a windy day ;)

Either way and it would be worth my time. We would just need to find a time and place to set it up. I could do it almost anytime if you travel to southern NM.

I’ll send you a PM
This is actually pretty tempting. Moa at those ranges prone is not a hard thing to do
 

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