Is it time for an 80/20 split in Utah

[Downrange]

I am not gonna lie kinda tired of hunters drawing tags with less bonus points then myself for the same hunts. What do you guys think change to an 80/20 split or keep it 50/50?

 

[Bux n Dux]

That’s cuz you haven’t been on the opposite side of the issue you’re having. 50/50 is a great way to have it. Gives everyone a shot. Utah doesn’t have to be like every other state out there. Each state has their own version of the draw. Play the game as your allowed as best you can and be happy about it.

 

[Elknut33]

For arguments sake, what impact would the 80/20 have on the top BP holders for each species, unit, etc. Would it allow the point creep for the upper echelon point holders to be weeded out and cause a trickle down?

 

[Downrange]

I’m not exactly sure what would happen. That’s a good question. Is it going to allow those with most points to finally weed themselves out by drawing a tag. What kind of effect would it have on point creep. Would it help it? Or eventually make it worse.

 

[Downrange]

80/20 split still gives everybody a shot at a tag, but moves the higher point holders through the system faster. How much faster I’m not sure, and would an 80/20 split really make that much of a difference. Let’s hear your opinions?

 

[scopenstalk]

I've never drawn without max points and I don't think that it's worth it to move to 80/20. It will help the higher point guys for a bit until there's so many people in the max pool you are random anyways. short term bandaid which in the long run wont really fix the problem.

 

[Muleydeer]

On both sides of the fence in different draws, i like the idea of having a chance, keep it the way it is! Nothing exciting about applying with a zero chance of drawing, i like the thought of their being a wild card!

 

[Vanilla]

How much of an impact that 80/20 split has really depends on the unit and the hunt. The hunts with more tags will certainly clear out higher point holders more quickly. Those with less tags will not see the impact as pronounced.

I don’t think a great draw system exists. All have positives and a whole lot of negatives. I think Utah’s is the best of all the bad systems, though. Just my opinion.

 

[jester]

Everything go to max points....
Just wasting my time now anyways..
Jester

 

[Elknut33]

I'm thinking that maybe they change the OIL tags to 80/20 to weed out the guys that have invested a good portion of their lives to putting in for those tags. Either that or we should change all LE tags to Once in a Lifetime since that is what it currently is taking to draw.

 

[bucks]

Im all for it,currently have 23 points for desert sheep 22 points for muel deer and don't draw! my wife has 23 points for moose and more than likely won't draw a tag for several years.give the tags to the point holders and let them move on.

 

[Nevadahunter]

For hunters just coming into the bonus point game a 80/20 would hurt new hunters and most would never be a max point holder in the once in a lifetime tags due too point creep. The BIGGEST thing that could help with limited entry Elk and Deer point creep in Utah would be to change the current CWMU ratio of tags from 9:1 to a 1:1 ratio. But as long as there is CWMU owners on the Wildlife Board that will never happen.

 

[highfastflyer]

As a nonresident I would support non residents getting 20% of the tags and residents getting 80% just like Wyoming currently offers to NR deer hunters and 25% to all sheep, goat and bison NR hunters.

 

[Vanilla]

As a nonresident I would support non residents getting 20% of the tags and residents getting 80% just like Wyoming currently offers to NR deer hunters and 25% to all sheep, goat and bison NR hunters.

Wrong issue here. And Utah will never do this.

 

[Elknut33]

The bad thing about it is there isn't a "one size fits all" solution to deal with all of the issues contributing to point creep.

 

[hossblur]

Imagine is EVERY APPLICANT had the EXACT same chance. From 12 yr olds to 100yr olds.

Point schemes were created by older hunters to benefit themselves at the expense of younger ones.

No points, state still gets app $$.

Still do OIL, waiting periods.

Yes, you may never draw a sheep. You may draw at 12.

You might not draw the San Juan(Bess). Or you may draw it every 6th year.

No point system. Everything else is a scheme.

And yes I have decades of points, and I'm fine with them going away.

 

[ridgetops]

I could live with the 80/20 in Utah but the CWMU would also need to go 80/20. I'd also like to see the bonus point ratio go 60/40

 

[JakeH]

No, the only change I would be interested in is no points, put everyone in at the same opportunity. 50/50 is as fair a system for everyone involved that there is. Just because you've been putting in for 20 years does not entitle you to the tag you want. fact is other then some of the OIL HUNTS if you have 20+ points you have the opportunity to be guaranteed a hunt, it might not be the unit you want. Or the weapon you want but you have the opportunity. Just cause you have a pile of points does not entitle you to squat.

Now if you want to move towards a no points system I would be interested in talking about that.

 

[bowedark]

I’ve been applying for the same tag for 17 years for 1 of 3 tags on the 17th year one tag in my point pool zone with two applicants I won that tagI do feel for the other applicant as I have been there many times 2 weeks before the hunt I got sick and had to have surgery so I return the tag got my points back and applied this year same unit 18 years points numbers jumped up 2 knocked me out off the point pool as it been said a blind squirrel nut once in a while I drew that tag again in the random draw out of 109 it’s amazing to look at the odds and how things work out so I guess I was meant to have this tag now if I can find a bull

 

[twopointdn]

Leave it alone. Out of all the different states that I have applied for over the years, I like Utah’s the best. 50/50 gives enough random tag to have some hope to get lucky and gives enough tags for the long play if you are not lucky. Four of my five Utah LE or OIL tags have came in the max point pool. I got lucky this year and draw a random tag with four point on a hunt that took six points to be in the guaranteed point pool so I saved two years of my life by having a little luck. If I were to list the different systems in order of preference it would be the following.

#1 Utah 50/50
#2 Idaho 100% random
#3 Wyoming 75/25
#4 Colorado preference points (the worst)

I like having a chance no matter how bigger or small that chance is of drawing a tag. That is what make the draws fun to me. Knowing year after year that I have no chance of drawing a tag in Colorado is boring to me. Just my thoughts.

 

[highfastflyer]

Wrong issue here. And Utah will never do this.

Yes we are realizing how greedy Utah hunters are and in the process of changing to a 90/10 system in Wyoming.

 

[JakeH]

Yes we are realizing how greedy Utah hunters are and in the process of changing to a 90/10 system in Wyoming.

I hate to hijack a perfectly good post, but since you've already interjected with some nonsense that has nothing to do with the original post... maybe it's time for Utah to require non residents to hire guides in the more popular hunting units.

 

[Butts]

Yes we are realizing how greedy Utah hunters are and in the process of changing to a 90/10 system in Wyoming.

Wyoming getting rid of outfitter revenue?? I’ll believe it when I see it...

 

[highfastflyer]

I hate to hijack a perfectly good post, but since you've already interjected with some nonsense that has nothing to do with the original post... maybe it's time for Utah to require non residents to hire guides in the more popular hunting units.

You never know when you might get lost or eaten by a Grizzly bear.

BTW, will nonresident hunters have a potential to hunt Grizzly bears and can I hunt wolves now in Utah. LMFAO.

 

[highfastflyer]

Wyoming getting rid of outfitter revenue?? I’ll believe it when I see it...

Start looking as the very first meeting of the newly formed task group they were already discussing it on the Big 5. Sheep, Mt Goat, Moose, Grizzly and Bison. The only battle will be whether it includes elk and deer in a 90/10 scheme.

 

[hossblur]

Yes. We have no wolf regs. Hunt away.

In fact, try south of MTN view. About 30 miles

 

[Butts]

Start looking as the very first meeting of the newly formed task group they were already discussing it on the Big 5. Sheep, Mt Goat, Moose, Grizzly and Bison. The only battle will be whether it includes elk and deer in a 90/10 scheme.

Much more revenue in bucks and bulls.. maybe, on the Big 5 . Long road with the uppers on deer and elk.

 

[Butts]

If it happens WYGF, will probably raise resident pricing, just Like Idaho will end up doing in the future.
IDK , maybe not time will tell. I guess as long as demand increases and the supply of wildlife decreases, someone will pay..

 

[Vanilla]

highfastflyer, Wyoming can do whatever it wants. But what does that have to do with how Utah divided tags in the bonus point system?

This isn’t a thread about resident/nonresident splits. It’s about how to divide max points vs non-max points within hunts. Start another thread to beat your drum.

I’ll say it again, I think Utah’s 50/50 split is the best of all the bad systems. No system is great when demand greatly outpaces supply. There will always be those that feel left out or cheated, no matter the system. The 50/50 bonus point system seems like a decent way to split it up. Reward time in the system and give everyone else a chance at the same time. Not perfect, but nothing is.

 

[highfastflyer]

highfastflyer, Wyoming can do whatever it wants. But what does that have to do with how Utah divided tags in the bonus point system?

This isn’t a thread about resident/nonresident splits. It’s about how to divide max points vs non-max points within hunts. Start another thread to beat your drum.

I’ll say it again, I think Utah’s 50/50 split is the best of all the bad systems. No system is great when demand greatly outpaces supply. There will always be those that feel left out or cheated, no matter the system. The 50/50 bonus point system seems like a decent way to split it up. Reward time in the system and give everyone else a chance at the same time. Not perfect, but nothing is.

Go back and reread the thread title. I’ll post it for you.

”Utah

Is it time for an 80/20 split in Utah”​

Then read the next sentence.
”I am not gonna lie kinda tired of hunters drawing tags with less bonus points then myself for the same hunts.”

I am also tired of Utah hunters drawing tags with less bonus points than myself. Reading comprehension was never your strong suit I can see. An 80/20 split of tags would surely be more Equitable and fair. LMFAO.

 

[JakeH]

You never know when you might get lost or eaten by a Grizzly bear.

BTW, will nonresident hunters have a potential to hunt Grizzly bears and can I hunt wolves now in Utah. LMFAO.

Sure come on down hunt them till your hearts content. You may have a tough time finding em, but you can hunt for them all you want. People go in the hills hunting for BigFoot too.

I’ll say it again, I think Utah’s 50/50 split is the best of all the bad systems. No system is great when demand greatly outpaces supply. There will always be those that feel left out or cheated, no matter the system. The 50/50 bonus point system seems like a decent way to split it up. Reward time in the system and give everyone else a chance at the same time. Not perfect, but nothing is.

V. I have debated you on this is the past, but from the other side with doing away with bonus points. In the end Utah does have the best system. 50/50 gives everyone a chance and gives those in the game the longest an advantage.

That said if there is talk about changing it, and it has to change my vote goes to doing away with the points systems, but I would do it over a 10 year period, hell even let em keep the points they have and they have that many chances in the hat, but every 5 years your points are cut in half, eventually you would weed through all of the points and everyone would be on equal footing.

Go back and reread the thread title. I’ll post it for you.

”Utah

Is it time for an 80/20 split in Utah”​

Then read the next sentence.
”I am not gonna lie kinda tired of hunters drawing tags with less bonus points then myself for the same hunts.”

I am also tired of Utah hunters drawing tags with less bonus points than myself. Reading comprehension was never your strong suit I can see. An 80/20 split of tags would surely be more Equitable and fair. LMFAO.

Keep digging your hole bud, you still obviously have no clue what is being discussed in this thread.

Here let me break it down for you.
Original post below with the end not cut off.

I am not gonna lie kinda tired of hunters drawing tags with less bonus points then myself for the same hunts. What do you guys think change to an 80/20 split or keep it 50/50?

You see that bold section in the post above???? He's talking about how Utah gives 50% of all LE/OIL tags to the people with the most points, they are called Bonus Points, and he wants it to be a 80/20% split instead.

Now slink on back to the Wyoming forum and post till your fingers bleed about all the damn Utards taking your tags.

Reminds me of the South park episode where the towns people are mad cause the illegals are taking there jobs.

"They took our Tags!!!!!!"

 

[Vanilla]

Go back and reread the thread title. I’ll post it for you.

”Utah

Is it time for an 80/20 split in Utah”​

Then read the next sentence.
”I am not gonna lie kinda tired of hunters drawing tags with less bonus points then myself for the same hunts.”

I am also tired of Utah hunters drawing tags with less bonus points than myself. Reading comprehension was never your strong suit I can see. An 80/20 split of tags would surely be more Equitable and fair. LMFAO.

You can keep taking pot shots at me, but you just look silly. You’re literally the only person in this thread that doesn’t understand what it is about.

My reading comprehension is just fine. But go ahead and write another chapter about how I’m not getting it when you are the only one in the room that doesn’t know what is being discussed. Sucks to suck, huh?

 

[highfastflyer]

You can keep taking pot shots at me, but you just look silly. You’re literally the only person in this thread that doesn’t understand what it is about.

My reading comprehension is just fine. But go ahead and write another chapter about how I’m not getting it when you are the only one in the room that doesn’t know what is being discussed. Sucks to suck, huh?

You are the one who looks not only silly but apparently quite Gormless. I fully understand what the thread was talking about but TIC I just posted another issue to consider with license allocation when you bring up 80/20. Everyone but you gets it. You can now go back to hiking the Hershey trail with your twinks now. No need for me to write another chapter as the humor would be lost. NGFYS!!!!

 

[Vanilla]

Good to see you FINALLY get it. Nice try to cover your tracks. Glad you won’t be posting anymore. That’s a blessing to us all.

 

[LIK2HNT]

As a NR I like the way all states are different. After building points for over 20 years it allows someone to go in with a long term strategy. Tweeting it along the way to fit your life (work and family duties), herd populations, weather, my aging body, etc. Rising cost are a given in this life, but there are limits. Same goes with changing tag allocations etc.
Utah has been fair to me so far, and I hope it does not change much.

 

[highfastflyer]

Good to see you FINALLY get it. Nice try to cover your tracks. Glad you won’t be posting anymore. That’s a blessing to us all.

No it’s a Curse for you having to wait 20 years for a good deer or elk tag in Utah. Must really SUCK. No need to cover my tracks, everyone else knew it was just a TIC pun on 80/20, Ignorance is Bliss for you though. I normally just go to the local convenience store or Walmart the night before the hunt to buy my licenses in Wyoming. You are fortunate though we do have 80/20 for NR deer in Wyoming and a 75/25 preference point system, not a pansy bonus point system, rife for fraud and corruption. I’d explain it to you but I don’t have the time nor the Crayons big enough for that.

 

[ridgetops]

I have to admit I was thinking of the other thread about the 80/20 ratio for res. vs non res. when I made my comment on this thread. Oops! BTW, I do like the 50/50 split but I sure wouldn't be terribly upset if it did go to a 80/20 split.

 

[Sparks Shooter]

I'm not for changing everything simply because there are many who have invested so many years in the current "game". Many are currently invested 1/4 of their entire life expectancy trying to get a tag for a deer or elk.

Of all the schemes out there I like the bonus points best where points are squared to determine how many entries a person has in the draw. This rewards those who have invested the longest while still providing legitimate hope for those who are just starting. ----SS

 

[Vanilla]

Now our system is a “pansy system.” Ha. I love internet tough guys. They are the biggest snowflakes of the bunch! It’s alright, tough guy. Everything here is going to be just fine.

I don’t even have to buy a license. Haven’t since 1994. Enjoy your trips to Walmart, though. An associate can send you straight to the Velcro glove isle after you pick up that yearly license.

 

[hossblur]

No it’s a Curse for you having to wait 20 years for a good deer or elk tag in Utah. Must really SUCK. No need to cover my tracks, everyone else knew it was just a TIC pun on 80/20, Ignorance is Bliss for you though. I normally just go to the local convenience store or Walmart the night before the hunt to buy my licenses in Wyoming. You are fortunate though we do have 80/20 for NR deer in Wyoming and a 75/25 preference point system, not a pansy bonus point system, rife for fraud and corruption. I’d explain it to you but I don’t have the time nor the Crayons big enough for that.

Careful. There was a time when we could go to Walmart. Then we screwed ourselves and sold out to the corporate lobby. Much like you want to with CWMU.

You guys up there don't need that kind of crap, ain't a ranch in Wyoming worth hunting if it means giving up any of what you boys have

 

[BrianID]

There are multiple examples of why point systems cause long term problems. I would be happy to give up all my points in Utah (as well as AZ, NV, CO, MT, WY) to go to 100% random draw. It will be a sad day in a few more years when 40 points and then 50 points isn't enough for a sheep tag. Sheep guides will become specialists in accommodating geriatric hunters.

 

[jims]

I don't think anyone mentioned NV's bonus pt system. There aren't any tags issued to those with the highest pts; however, pts are squared for each pt/year a hunter applies for a particular species. Those that have applied for more years stand a slightly better chance to draw. It's almost a blend between a pt system and no pts because everyone that applies has a chance to draw the same tag. Even after 50 years the guy with 0 bonus pts could still draw the same tag a guy with 50 pts has a chance of drawing.

 

[Vanilla]

jims, that is probably my second favorite system, to be honest, but still has flaws like all others. I wouldn’t hate Nevada’s system.

The example you used is the case in Utah as well. Someone with 0 points drew a bison tag this year. Stuff like this happens every year.

 

[highfastflyer]

Now our system is a “pansy system.” Ha. I love internet tough guys. They are the biggest snowflakes of the bunch! It’s alright, tough guy. Everything here is going to be just fine.

I don’t even have to buy a license. Haven’t since 1994. Enjoy your trips to Walmart, though. An associate can send you straight to the Velcro glove isle after you pick up that yearly license.

A bonus point system is rife with the ability to use fraud and corruption. I’m not saying it has but how many DWR employees over the years are awarded random tags or how many rich guys got a great Desert sheep tag as it’s cheaper to hand a red envelope under the table than pay 100K at a FNAWS convention. At least with a higher odds 75/25 preference system you know where you stand with PP and occasionally someone will get a rare random tag. I need those gloves from Walmart, not velcro, normally just rubber ones as in Wyoming we have good hunting on a General Elk and Deer tag. Have fun with your Regional hunt on a 10 day season. I normally start archery hunting Sept. 1st then stop whitetail deer hunting on Nov. 30th and switch to wolf hunting into January, and we certainly need those rubber gloves. You can enjoy your hunt with your twinks hiking the hershey trail up on Brokeback but watch out for the bare bears. LMAO.

 

[highfastflyer]

Careful. There was a time when we could go to Walmart. Then we screwed ourselves and sold out to the corporate lobby. Much like you want to with CWMU.

You guys up there don't need that kind of crap, ain't a ranch in Wyoming worth hunting if it means giving up any of what you boys have

Utah was in the dumps for hunting long before the CWMU system came online. It should have gone limited much sooner with all the hunter demand. I think in the heyday Utah had 200,000 General license hunters. No way the resource ever could have supported that. Everyone wants a silver bullet to bring back the numbers and big bucks. There is none, without CWMUs offering up thousands of tags there would have been an even bigger demand on an ever diminishing resource. There are great areas in Wyoming you can come hunt and even draw almost every year. I highly recommend region A in Wyoming as you can draw it every year or two and gives you a chance to hunt both Mulies and whitetail deer. Some of the most enjoyable hunts I do nowadays are cow elk hunts during late season. It is great family time, excellent table fare and a real challenge to stalk those wise old gals. Utah CWMUs biggest problem is it is poorly managed and you included accessible public lands in them, a huge No-No. I certainly don’t want a Utah style CWMU in Wyoming but one with a state Czar/Manager who answers to public sportsmen not Outfitters is what would have to be established in order for Wyoming to ever give away transferable landowner tags. I doubt it will ever happen but it would be nice if we also had the opportunity like Utahns can to hunt great ranches like Deseret or the Alton Ranch, we can’t do that without spending 12K on a Q-Creek ranch hunt and we still have to draw a difficult tag without a preference point system for residents.

 

[hossblur]

Utah was in the dumps for hunting long before the CWMU system came online. It should have gone limited much sooner with all the hunter demand. I think in the heyday Utah had 200,000 General license hunters. No way the resource ever could have supported that. Everyone wants a silver bullet to bring back the numbers and big bucks. There is none, without CWMUs offering up thousands of tags there would have been an even bigger demand on an ever diminishing resource. There are great areas in Wyoming you can come hunt and even draw almost every year. I highly recommend region A in Wyoming as you can draw it every year or two and gives you a chance to hunt both Mulies and whitetail deer. Some of the most enjoyable hunts I do nowadays are cow elk hunts during late season. It is great family time, excellent table fare and a real challenge to stalk those wise old gals. Utah CWMUs biggest problem is it is poorly managed and you included accessible public lands in them, a huge No-No. I certainly don’t want a Utah style CWMU in Wyoming but one with a state Czar/Manager who answers to public sportsmen not Outfitters is what would have to be established in order for Wyoming to ever give away transferable landowner tags. I doubt it will ever happen but it would be nice if we also had the opportunity like Utahns can to hunt great ranches like Deseret or the Alton Ranch, we can’t do that without spending 12K on a Q-Creek ranch hunt and we still have to draw a difficult tag without a preference point system for residents.

Hey genius. Might want to check out who out "czar" is, and which ranch he owns. (Hint, Heaton).

I hope the rest of Wyoming ain't as dumb as you seem to be on this issue

 

[highfastflyer]

Hey genius. Might want to check out who out "czar" is, and which ranch he owns. (Hint, Heaton).

I hope the rest of Wyoming ain't as dumb as you seem to be on this issue

Another example of how Utah screwed the pooch and the CWMU system is so screwed up. We don’t need to make the same stupid mistakes. This is why many Wyomingites don’t want a CWMU program. I still think it has merit but don’t make the same mistakes as Utah and Colorado RFW program made which are many. A manager/Czar would need to be a State DWR official who answers to the Governor and a public sportsmen type council. Wyoming has an Access Yes manager in each region and this would be the obvious choice as an added duty. At a minimum it would be 5000 tags not hunting in General or other Limited Entry areas competing with an already over harvested resource. What you are basically saying is all public schools are bad. I say fix the issues that plague the bad schools instead of discarding the whole public education system.

 

[BeDawg]

Imagine is EVERY APPLICANT had the EXACT same chance. From 12 yr olds to 100yr olds.

Point schemes were created by older hunters to benefit themselves at the expense of younger ones.

No points, state still gets app $$.

Still do OIL, waiting periods.

Yes, you may never draw a sheep. You may draw at 12.

You might not draw the San Juan(Bess). Or you may draw it every 6th year.

No point system. Everything else is a scheme.

And yes I have decades of points, and I'm fine with them going away.

I am tired of people calling them point schemes because they are not. Nobody is getting ripped off because draw odds are kept transparent.

Scheme definition: Make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.

 

[highfastflyer]

I am tired of people calling them point schemes because they are not. Nobody is getting ripped off because draw odds are kept transparent.

Scheme definition: Make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.

When used as a noun it has no devious intent.

Definition: A large-scale systematic plan or arrangement for attaining a particular object or putting a particular idea into effect.

 

[roadrunner]

If you want to see frustration, go to a 100% random on everything. On this system, you can go a lifetime without ever pulling a tag on a choice hunt while watching your neighbor pull that same tag every year because of plain dumb luck.

UT's satisfies both conditions. Long term investors get a better chance while giving newcomers a shot.

A unit I will apply in next year for antelope guarentees me the tag as a max point holder. That same unit gave the other NR tag to someone with zero points.

 

[jims]

I like Nevada system but also think Utah’s current system is good with a guaranteed chunk to those that have invested time and $ in a draw system and those starting off applying still have a chance.

I myself don’t like 100% random because a hunter could apply a lifetime to draw 1 tag while someone else may draw multiple tags.

 

[hossblur]

Again. WE HAVE THAT.

But sure, you "fix" the problem. WYOGA. There's you problem. Somehow you think you, random dude with no ranch, no clients, no $$$, are going to dictate to those who do? Because.......you say so? On what planet do you live where appointed positions aren't tied to politics?

I'm sure big ranch owner is going to turn over access to his ranch, and have zero say in the process? Would you?

Here's how it will work.

Wyoming CWMU. Whatever set up you want.

The rancher and WYOGA backroom the governor pushing for a "friendly" czar, afterall, elections cost money. Then, they get "friendly" folks onto the committee that controls CWMU. Along the line, the rules start to get blurred. Acreage requirements get adjusted, public land surrounded, because it "makes sense". The committee and czar listen intently to complaints about individual CWMU not following rules, not allowing full access, etc. Nothing happens, the operator keeps his CWMU, the public guy gets hosed.

Now it's expanded from a few real large ranches, to your red desert elk surrounded by them. Region G surrounded by them. Of course 20 or so dudes get access, but entire regions become a deep pocket playground. Regardless of range conditions, herd strength, winter kill, drought, those CWMU keep THEIR tags, you become subject to cuts, restrictions, etc. Because YOU don't make political contributions. You don't have a livestock association lobbyist. Nor a WYOGA lobbyist.

And, ya, you might hunt that ranch you so desperately want access to, once in your life, to do it you gave up OTC tags. You made all of your favorite areas, subject to draws. Because your CWMU creation, gets THEIR TAGS FIRST. You get the scraps

I am tired of people calling them point schemes because they are not. Nobody is getting ripped off because draw odds are kept transparent.

Scheme definition: Make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.

"Something wrong"

As in knowingly, because the topic was discussed, advantaging older hunters, at the expense of younger ones.

The further blind spot being the rise in adult onset hunters, and women hunters becoming a force.

The math didn't change. Fewer tags more people were always going to create point creep. So, as the middle age dudes who pushed the scheme, figured, the ability to build points across all species, meant that you would most likely hunt all of them, before creep made it impossible.


If the DWR(and the lobby that pushed points), came to YOU today and said, "we have an idea, where YOU will NEVER hunt sheep, bison, goats, moose, AND you will MAYBE hunt ONE LE deer or elk, in your lifetime. Or, we can have an open draw where all of that might happen, OR you might draw every year you put in, which would you do?"

But that's what we are telling the kids. And if you come into hunting in your adulthood, it's even worse. A 30 year old dude is looking at drawing tags, as he draws social security.

Now don't start with "there's all these options to hunt otherwise, or strageties. Because those were/are both available then and now.

It's a SCHEME because it advantages hunters, not based on their woodsman ship, drive, skill, accuracy, etc, but on when their parents had sex. Born Jan 1, your a year behind the creep to your twin brother born Dec 31, 11:59pm.

And like it or not, THIS WAS discussed at the outset of the point scheme creation. But those in charge, weren't 12yr olds, weren't adult onset. They were the dudes who saw a way to draw tags, pretty much guaranteed before they retired.

 

[highfastflyer]

Again. WE HAVE THAT.

But sure, you "fix" the problem. WYOGA. There's you problem. Somehow you think you, random dude with no ranch, no clients, no $$$, are going to dictate to those who do? Because.......you say so? On what planet do you live where appointed positions aren't tied to politics?

I'm sure big ranch owner is going to turn over access to his ranch, and have zero say in the process? Would you?

Here's how it will work.

Wyoming CWMU. Whatever set up you want.

The rancher and WYOGA backroom the governor pushing for a "friendly" czar, afterall, elections cost money. Then, they get "friendly" folks onto the committee that controls CWMU. Along the line, the rules start to get blurred. Acreage requirements get adjusted, public land surrounded, because it "makes sense". The committee and czar listen intently to complaints about individual CWMU not following rules, not allowing full access, etc. Nothing happens, the operator keeps his CWMU, the public guy gets hosed.

Now it's expanded from a few real large ranches, to your red desert elk surrounded by them. Region G surrounded by them. Of course 20 or so dudes get access, but entire regions become a deep pocket playground. Regardless of range conditions, herd strength, winter kill, drought, those CWMU keep THEIR tags, you become subject to cuts, restrictions, etc. Because YOU don't make political contributions. You don't have a livestock association lobbyist. Nor a WYOGA lobbyist.

And, ya, you might hunt that ranch you so desperately want access to, once in your life, to do it you gave up OTC tags. You made all of your favorite areas, subject to draws. Because your CWMU creation, gets THEIR TAGS FIRST. You get the scraps


"Something wrong"

As in knowingly, because the topic was discussed, advantaging older hunters, at the expense of younger ones.

The further blind spot being the rise in adult onset hunters, and women hunters becoming a force.

The math didn't change. Fewer tags more people were always going to create point creep. So, as the middle age dudes who pushed the scheme, figured, the ability to build points across all species, meant that you would most likely hunt all of them, before creep made it impossible.


If the DWR(and the lobby that pushed points), came to YOU today and said, "we have an idea, where YOU will NEVER hunt sheep, bison, goats, moose, AND you will MAYBE hunt ONE LE deer or elk, in your lifetime. Or, we can have an open draw where all of that might happen, OR you might draw every year you put in, which would you do?"

But that's what we are telling the kids. And if you come into hunting in your adulthood, it's even worse. A 30 year old dude is looking at drawing tags, as he draws social security.

Now don't start with "there's all these options to hunt otherwise, or strageties. Because those were/are both available then and now.

It's a SCHEME because it advantages hunters, not based on their woodsman ship, drive, skill, accuracy, etc, but on when their parents had sex. Born Jan 1, your a year behind the creep to your twin brother born Dec 31, 11:59pm.

And like it or not, THIS WAS discussed at the outset of the point scheme creation. But those in charge, weren't 12yr olds, weren't adult onset. They were the dudes who saw a way to draw tags, pretty much guaranteed before they retired.

You keep trying to compare Utah’s failures as what would happen in Wyoming. We would not make the same mistakes and tie up public accessible lands and allow the public DIY hunters to have separate treatment. The State CWMU Czar would be in charge of all CWMU individual drawings for hunt slots/dates. Any acreage offered in a CWMU would be fully accessible to ALL hunters. We wouldn’t allow separate boundaries and hunt dates for the Joe Public DIY hunters. If 10 permits are offered on a ranch then 2 go to public and 8 for the paying clients. One week time slots with a drawing to determine who gets which slots and the entire acreage offered would be fully huntable.
The WYOGA problem can be fixed by creating a win-win situation for them. Many are now losing money as more areas go limited quota their hunters cannot draw. With a CWMU they move off the public lands and onto the CWMU as it provides a more steady source of income. The state could also provide incentives for Outfitters to pair up with big landowners in exchange for them giving up on their Forest service permits to guide and operate as commercially licenses Outfitters making the Forest and public lands less overwhelmed by massive Outfitter tent camps and strings of 30-40 pack horses and mules on every major trailhead.
Your Mumbo jumbo about Red Desert elk is incoherent. There are ZERO ranches big enough to qualify there as it’s 95% BLM lands. The same with region G, almost all of that is Forest Service lands. There may be one or two big enough ranches along the Green River in G but they have been private for decades and unreachable by public hunters.
CWMU tags are completely separate from regional quotas. If a bad winter happens it would Help a great deal to have and keep all those 5000 tags on CWMUs and keep those hunters off the General areas. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. As I said earlier, you think all programs are bad just because Utah screwed the pooch. All public education isn’t bad because Utah schools suck. Many states have much better managed and funded public school programs. You want to throw the baby out with the bath water. This could be done properly and if it doesn’t work then a 5 year pilot program could be cancelled. Utah and Colorado do make good case study of what NOT to do, I give you that. Opening up 2 million acres of private lands for public hunters to get 20% of the tags could be a HUGE win-win if done correctly. It might also make more leftover General tags available for non-residents to have more hunting opportunity in Wyoming as now 5,000 resident hunters would not be eligible if drawn in a CWMU to hunt a General or LQ area.

Finally, you demonstrate IGNORANCE with this point.
”Because your CWMU creation, gets THEIR TAGS FIRST. You get the scraps”

Again, CWMUs would have no effect upon regional or General areas they are completely SEPARATE. The opposite would be true, Hunts would be awarded through a drawing. If a ranch owner doesn’t like that then he can’t play the CWMU game. He can just hope his hunters can draw tags. Highly difficult in premium LQ areas like area 7 elk.

 

[roadrunner]

All public education isn’t bad because Utah schools suck. Many states have much better managed and funded public school programs.

NM has UT beat on school system suckiness, just so you know.

 

[highfastflyer]

NM has UT beat on school system suckiness, just so you know.

It depends upon which failed area of Utah if you get my drift.

 

[roadrunner]

It depends upon which failed area of Utah if you get my drift.View attachment 44757

No. Everywhere it has UT beat...

 

[bpbigperm]

I live in California and we have a 90/10 split. It sucks. I would much rather have a 50/50. If you think it is hard to draw a tag with max points at 50/50, it will get much harder at 80/20. People realize that the coveted tags are now once in a life time and hold their points for just the best hunts. Point creep will explode. Residents will look to out of state tags as yearly hunts and wait for their local hunt to be the best and draw in the best moisture year. Guys want to have the biggest local buck because everyone they know hunts there. I prefer NM draw system. It keeps hunter retention which is another issue we have to think about as hunting becomes less popular with the youth. I am 42 and can see hunting opportunities massively drop in my lifetime.

 

[roadrunner]

I live in California and we have a 90/10 split. It sucks. I would much rather have a 50/50. If you think it is hard to draw a tag with max points at 50/50, it will get much harder at 80/20. People realize that the coveted tags are now once in a life time and hold their points for just the best hunts. Point creep will explode. Residents will look to out of state tags as yearly hunts and wait for their local hunt to be the best and draw in the best moisture year. Guys want to have the biggest local buck because everyone they know hunts there. I prefer NM draw system. It keeps hunter retention which is another issue we have to think about as hunting becomes less popular with the youth. I am 42 and can see hunting opportunities massively drop in my lifetime.

It's because NM gives the same opportunity each year regardless with the false hope of drawing a tag.

UT has more a "hybrid" system. UT just needs to add more tags, based on unit and species data, to thin out the max point holders...

 

[hossblur]

You keep trying to compare Utah’s failures as what would happen in Wyoming. We would not make the same mistakes and tie up public accessible lands and allow the public DIY hunters to have separate treatment. The State CWMU Czar would be in charge of all CWMU individual drawings for hunt slots/dates. Any acreage offered in a CWMU would be fully accessible to ALL hunters. We wouldn’t allow separate boundaries and hunt dates for the Joe Public DIY hunters. If 10 permits are offered on a ranch then 2 go to public and 8 for the paying clients. One week time slots with a drawing to determine who gets which slots and the entire acreage offered would be fully huntable.
The WYOGA problem can be fixed by creating a win-win situation for them. Many are now losing money as more areas go limited quota their hunters cannot draw. With a CWMU they move off the public lands and onto the CWMU as it provides a more steady source of income. The state could also provide incentives for Outfitters to pair up with big landowners in exchange for them giving up on their Forest service permits to guide and operate as commercially licenses Outfitters making the Forest and public lands less overwhelmed by massive Outfitter tent camps and strings of 30-40 pack horses and mules on every major trailhead.
Your Mumbo jumbo about Red Desert elk is incoherent. There are ZERO ranches big enough to qualify there as it’s 95% BLM lands. The same with region G, almost all of that is Forest Service lands. There may be one or two big enough ranches along the Green River in G but they have been private for decades and unreachable by public hunters.
CWMU tags are completely separate from regional quotas. If a bad winter happens it would Help a great deal to have and keep all those 5000 tags on CWMUs and keep those hunters off the General areas. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. As I said earlier, you think all programs are bad just because Utah screwed the pooch. All public education isn’t bad because Utah schools suck. Many states have much better managed and funded public school programs. You want to throw the baby out with the bath water. This could be done properly and if it doesn’t work then a 5 year pilot program could be cancelled. Utah and Colorado do make good case study of what NOT to do, I give you that. Opening up 2 million acres of private lands for public hunters to get 20% of the tags could be a HUGE win-win if done correctly. It might also make more leftover General tags available for non-residents to have more hunting opportunity in Wyoming as now 5,000 resident hunters would not be eligible if drawn in a CWMU to hunt a General or LQ area.

Finally, you demonstrate IGNORANCE with this point.
”Because your CWMU creation, gets THEIR TAGS FIRST. You get the scraps”

Again, CWMUs would have no effect upon regional or General areas they are completely SEPARATE. The opposite would be true, Hunts would be awarded through a drawing. If a ranch owner doesn’t like that then he can’t play the CWMU game. He can just hope his hunters can draw tags. Highly difficult in premium LQ areas like area 7 elk.

I'm out. Good luck.

I'm sure in your fairy tale land millionaire land owners, and politicians who want millions, will GLADLY give up control of their land, to you. In exchange for?


They don't need you. They NEED guaranteed tags. YOU DONT HAVE THEM. The G&F does.

You pretend like you have some sort of power, or leverage. You have neither. So PRETENDING like you do is silly and naive.

YOU are an afterthought. Once WYOGA and the landowner figure out the economics of what they want, THEY will tell YOU what is left. If YOU don't like it, no one cares, they DONT NEED YOU.
Utah, Colorado, NM have done what you want,band it failed 3 times.

So yup, the issue is that it "hasn't been done right" is the issue.

Or, as 3states have shown, CORPORATE INTERESTS WIN, because they HAVE WHAT POLITICIANS want.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$¢$$

 

[LIK2HNT]

Sad but true

 

[highfastflyer]

So yup, the issue is that it "hasn't been done right" is the issue.

FINALLY, FINALLY , FINALLY You admit it!!!
Just because Utah and Colorado and NM screwed the pooch and can’t manage their system adequately we should just throw out the baby with the bath water.

It‘s like saying Social Security is a failed system so let’s just CANCEL it.

The public Education system in Utah is broke and un-fixable so let’s just cancel it.

The Utah Highway DOT system is broken so let’s just cancel it, no more public roads just private toll roads.

Any program with problems has solutions. Sometimes they are difficult and require thinking outside the box and radical strategies to try and fix them.

The CWMU issues are just the same. I know money talks in politics but that doesn’t mean we just lay over and cry uncle. Look at the Oil and Gas and Energy lobby in Wyoming. The poor little Sage Grouse has them trembling in their boots. They can’t even fart without BLM requiring an environmental impact statement. CWMUs are no different, if properly controlled and managed. Nobody is talking about taking control of another ranchers personal ownership. It’s only hunting tags. If you want to play then you have to give up 20% of all tags to Joe Public DIY hunter, plain and simple. The rancher still along with the Outfitter controls the hunting experience. You have even admitted there are Operators who do a pretty good job. Many of the biggest bucks and bulls on Deseret are taken by public hunters as they have worked and earned their tag and hunt harder. Your hang up is you have lived through a mostly failed CWMU system. It’s like you were beaten as a child and now you think all Fathers are bad. They aren’t and neither is well managed hunting programs. They just need tweaking and fixing. If it is so bad in Utah I suggest you either fix the plaguing issues or live with them. There are 5,000 happy hunters who gleefully look forward to hunting on a CWMU on some of the best managed private lands in the West. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water because your step daddy beat you as a red headed step child, you just have battered CWMU syndrome.

 

[hossblur]

FINALLY, FINALLY , FINALLY You admit it!!!
Just because Utah and Colorado and NM screwed the pooch and can’t manage their system adequately we should just throw out the baby with the bath water.

It‘s like saying Social Security is a failed system so let’s just CANCEL it.

The public Education system in Utah is broke and un-fixable so let’s just cancel it.

The Utah Highway DOT system is broken so let’s just cancel it, no more public roads just private toll roads.

Any program with problems has solutions. Sometimes they are difficult and require thinking outside the box and radical strategies to try and fix them.

The CWMU issues are just the same. I know money talks in politics but that doesn’t mean we just lay over and cry uncle. Look at the Oil and Gas and Energy lobby in Wyoming. The poor little Sage Grouse has them trembling in their boots. They can’t even fart without BLM requiring an environmental impact statement. CWMUs are no different, if properly controlled and managed. Nobody is talking about taking control of another ranchers personal ownership. It’s only hunting tags. If you want to play then you have to give up 20% of all tags to Joe Public DIY hunter, plain and simple. The rancher still along with the Outfitter controls the hunting experience. You have even admitted there are Operators who do a pretty good job. Many of the biggest bucks and bulls on Deseret are taken by public hunters as they have worked and earned their tag and hunt harder. Your hang up is you have lived through a mostly failed CWMU system. It’s like you were beaten as a child and now you think all Fathers are bad. They aren’t and neither is well managed hunting programs. They just need tweaking and fixing. If it is so bad in Utah I suggest you either fix the plaguing issues or live with them. There are 5,000 happy hunters who gleefully look forward to hunting on a CWMU on some of the best managed private lands in the West. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water because your step daddy beat you as a red headed step child, you just have battered CWMU syndrome.

I know. I said I was done.

260,000 hunters, down to under 90,000.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

 

[schoolhousegrizz]

Keep it 50/50!

 

[elktaker]

The real question is how does Utah get out of the points system????

 

[roadrunner]

The real question is how does Utah get out of the points system????

End it.

 

[highfastflyer]

I know. I said I was done.

260,000 hunters, down to under 90,000.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

It won’t get better with drought or canceling the CWMU program, in fact it’s getting worse. Demand will far outstrip the resource if you get rid of CWMUs. I suggest you transfer you anger and battered syndrome to improving habitat and providing water sources for those thirsty desert wildlife animals. In the meantime I’ll keep studying and researching problem areas and pitfalls and what not to do and how NOT to manage CWMUs. On the plus side a win-win program opening up 2 million more acres and allowing 5000+hunters a chance to have a great hunting experience with a newly formed CWMU program in Wyoming which highly coveted and envious by other states.

Just keep telling yourself you‘re not an idiot 3 times every day, it might make you feel better.

 

[hossblur]

It won’t get better with drought or canceling the CWMU program, in fact it’s getting worse. Demand will far outstrip the resource if you get rid of CWMUs. I suggest you transfer you anger and battered syndrome to improving habitat and providing water sources for those thirsty desert wildlife animals. In the meantime I’ll keep studying and researching problem areas and pitfalls and what not to do and how NOT to manage CWMUs. On the plus side a win-win program opening up 2 million more acres and allowing 5000+hunters a chance to have a great hunting experience with a newly formed CWMU program in Wyoming which highly coveted and envious by other states.

I'm assuming you put in for CWMU tags then

Dude. I get you want expanded access, less creep. But be smart enough to realize that giving the corporate hunters MORE costs you.

Now I'm really done

 

[highfastflyer]

I'm assuming you put in for CWMU tags then

Dude. I get you want expanded access, less creep. But be smart enough to realize that giving the corporate hunters MORE costs you.

Now I'm really done

I can’t afford those in Utah and NR aren‘t eligible but I sure would like a chance at a Q-Creek elk or deer or a Wagonhound or Hoodoo or a thousand other great big ranches in Wyoming. Now you know why I think it’s a good thing. Even the largest the Overland Trail ranch over 500,000 acres in Southern Wyoming which ties up 250,000 acres of checkerboard public would be a great hunt.

 

[BrianID]

I am tired of people calling them point schemes because they are not. Nobody is getting ripped off because draw odds are kept transparent.

Scheme definition: Make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong.

They are schemes. You invest years and significant $$ and then have the rules get change on you. That is what makes them schemes.

Just look at the moose and sheep applicantions in Wyoming. A nonresident invests in the system for over a decade and then Wyoming changes the rules and starts charging $100 per point. A nonresident hunter may be frustrated by the increased fee but sticks with it because he thinks he can finally get his tag sometime in the near future. Now if highflastflyer has his way, there will be a significant cut in nonresident tags for Moose and Sheep. Guys that thought they may be 2-3 years from drawing a tag may still not have enough points in 10 years.

Many states have had significant fee increases for tags as well. It would be one thing if they were increased to keep up with inflation but many states have made very large increases over the last 10 to 20 years. Point systems can also mathematically eliminate or severely disadvantage new hunters.

Point systems are like Socialism. They seem to work in the short term but you have to look at the longterm consequences to realize they are a bad idea.

 

[highfastflyer]

They are schemes. You invest years and significant $$ and then have the rules get change on you. That is what makes them schemes.

Just look at the moose and sheep applicantions in Wyoming. A nonresident invests in the system for over a decade and then Wyoming changes the rules and starts charging $100 per point. A nonresident hunter may be frustrated by the increased fee but sticks with it because he thinks he can finally get his tag sometime in the near future. Now if highflastflyer has his way, there will be a significant cut in nonresident tags for Moose and Sheep. Guys that thought they may be 2-3 years from drawing a tag may still not have enough points in 10 years.

Many states have had significant fee increases for tags as well. It would be one thing if they were increased to keep up with inflation but many states have made very large increases over the last 10 to 20 years. Point systems can also mathematically eliminate or severely disadvantage new hunters.

Point systems are like Socialism. They seem to work in the short term but you have to look at the longterm consequences to realize they are a bad idea.

What would certainly be a SCAM is completely doing away with the point system Utah has established.

Prices and rules constantly change and the point system Never made any guarantees. In fact it was always understood the herd numbers fluctuate greatly per year just based upon the weather. If it would make you feel better to have had a legal disclaimer signed when you purchase a preference point then perhaps it could read something like this.

“No Guarantees or Warranties. Except as expressly provided in the Agreement, neither Customer nor Wyoming Game and Fish makes any guarantees or warranties of any kind, expressed or implied. The state of Wyoming specifically disclaims all implied warranties of any kind or nature, including any implied warranty of license allocation or harvest.”

Did Idaho, Montana, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and any other states which cut back their Non-Resident licenses to 90/10 offer any Implied warranty for changing the quotas? I think we already know the answer to that one.

Most hunters know full well nothing is guaranteed or implied in hunting or obtaining a license in an ever changing system the license numbers, prices, seasons and conditions can change and will vary from season to season. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

 

[roadrunner]

What would certainly be a SCAM is doing away with the point system Utah has established.

Prices and rules constantly change and the point system Never made any guarantees. In fact it was always understood the herd numbers fluctuate greatly per year just based upon the weather. If it would make you feel better to have had a legal disclaimer signed when you purchase a preference point then perhaps it could read something like this.

“No Guarantees or Warranties. Except as expressly provided in the Agreement, neither Customer nor Wyoming Game and Fish makes any guarantees or warranties of any kind, expressed or implied. The state of Wyoming specifically disclaims all implied warranties of any kind or nature, including any implied warranty of license allocation or harvest.”

Did Idaho, Montana, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and any other states which cut back their Non-Resident licenses to 90/10 offer any Implied warranty for changing the quotas? I think we already know the answer to that one.

Most hunters know full well nothing is guaranteed or implied in hunting or obtaining a license in an ever changing system the license numbers, prices, seasons and conditions can change and will vary from season to season. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

I wish NM did have a 90/10 split and get rid of the outfitter coddled quota.

It would be slightly easier to draw a tag for both and R's and NR's.

Point systems are like Socialism. They seem to work in the short term but you have to look at the longterm consequences to realize they are a bad idea.

Anytime gov't allocates a resource you have socialism. All draw systems are socialistic in nature, including ID's and NM's "wonderful" systems.

 

[VERNON]

Change it a little to see the impact like 60/40 or 70/30. I'd like to see OIL go no random.

 

[BrianID]

I wish NM did have a 90/10 split and get rid of the outfitter coddled quota.

It would be slightly easier to draw a tag for both and R's and NR's.



Anytime gov't allocates a resource you have socialism. All draw systems are socialistic in nature, including ID's and NM's "wonderful" systems.

I agree on NM. The 10% outfitter welfare in NM is a government handout, just like the wilderness law is in Wyoming.

My argument is socialism and point systems both seem to work ok in the short term, but you have to look at the long term consequences of both to understand why they don't work well.

 

[BrianID]

What would certainly be a SCAM is completely doing away with the point system Utah has established.

Prices and rules constantly change and the point system Never made any guarantees. In fact it was always understood the herd numbers fluctuate greatly per year just based upon the weather. If it would make you feel better to have had a legal disclaimer signed when you purchase a preference point then perhaps it could read something like this.

“No Guarantees or Warranties. Except as expressly provided in the Agreement, neither Customer nor Wyoming Game and Fish makes any guarantees or warranties of any kind, expressed or implied. The state of Wyoming specifically disclaims all implied warranties of any kind or nature, including any implied warranty of license allocation or harvest.”

Did Idaho, Montana, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and any other states which cut back their Non-Resident licenses to 90/10 offer any Implied warranty for changing the quotas? I think we already know the answer to that one.

Most hunters know full well nothing is guaranteed or implied in hunting or obtaining a license in an ever changing system the license numbers, prices, seasons and conditions can change and will vary from season to season. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

The difference in Idaho and NM is they don't have a point system that holds hunters "hostage". If Idaho or NM change their rules or significantly increase the fees, hunters can walk away from either state without loosing their points. If Wyoming changes to 10% nonresident for sheep and moose, many nonresidents the have invested 15 or 20 years and thousands of dollars in points will have to decide if they want to continue or walk away from their time and $$ investment.
Wyoming points.

 

[grosventrehunter]

Do you guys really believe Utah's system is better than Nevada? I have always liked the way Nevada squared their points. Maybe it's because I have drawn 2 premium tags in Nevada and nothing is Utah. Nonetheless, I will eventually draw in Utah.....

 

[highfastflyer]

The difference in Idaho and NM is they don't have a point system that holds hunters "hostage". If Idaho or NM change their rules or significantly increase the fees, hunters can walk away from either state without loosing their points. If Wyoming changes to 10% nonresident for sheep and moose, many nonresidents the have invested 15 or 20 years and thousands of dollars in points will have to decide if they want to continue or walk away from their time and $$ investment.
Wyoming points.

Not sure about NM but Idaho changed their rules awhile back and requires an expensive Big Game License to be purchased just to apply for any Limited Entry permit. Talk about a wasted investment and getting NOTHING in return when you get that big UNSUCCESSFUL notice. Besides, many of the points in Wyoming were purchased when they were a measly $7.

 

[roadrunner]

The difference in Idaho and NM is they don't have a point system that holds hunters "hostage". If Idaho or NM change their rules or significantly increase the fees, hunters can walk away from either state without loosing their points. If Wyoming changes to 10% nonresident for sheep and moose, many nonresidents the have invested 15 or 20 years and thousands of dollars in points will have to decide if they want to continue or walk away from their time and $$ investment.
Wyoming points.

You're not walking away from any investment in points as the cost of a point is the application fee, which you're paying for anyway. In UT you can compete for either the one random or the remaining 50% random which now is a direct reflection of NM's system.

The difference is the theoretical chace of eventually being rewarded for diligence in applying by being a max point holder and drawing the tag. You could pull the tag any year up to that point...

My argument is socialism and point systems both seem to work ok in the short term, but you have to look at the long term consequences of both to understand why they don't work well.

Anytime gov't allocates a scarce resource to the general public on equal playing fields it's socialism, points or no points.

The long term analogy is you standing in the bread line for 5 years, then some newbie cuts in front of you and gets the bread you've been waiting for...

 

[Elkslayer2015]

There is nothing wrong with the system now 50/50 gives everyone a chance.

Now if we only had a hand full of LE units in this state I would say I could probably go with 80/20 split or a 90/10 split as it is right now we have way too many LE units in this state and it truly is effecting our general draw in a big way...

 

[BrianID]

Not sure about NM but Idaho changed their rules awhile back and requires an expensive Big Game License to be purchased just to apply for any Limited Entry permit. Talk about a wasted investment and getting NOTHING in return when you get that big UNSUCCESSFUL notice. Besides, many of the points in Wyoming were purchased when they were a measly $7.

Idaho has required a big game license for applications as long as I can remember. NM started requiring a big game license along with Colorado a couple years ago. It doesn't really bother me because I'll be using that license in Idaho, NM and Colorado this year anyway.
For the guys that invested years at $7 a point, the sudden switch to $100 per point does feel like a scam. If the rules significantly change again after investing for years at $100 per point it will solidify the scam narrative.

 

[BrianID]

You're not walking away from any investment in points as the cost of a point is the application fee, which you're paying for anyway. In UT you can compete for either the one random or the remaining 50% random which now is a direct reflection of NM's system.

The difference is the theoretical chace of eventually being rewarded for diligence in applying by being a max point holder and drawing the tag. You could pull the tag any year up to that point...



Anytime gov't allocates a scarce resource to the general public on equal playing fields it's socialism, points or no points.

The long term analogy is you standing in the bread line for 5 years, then some newbie cuts in front of you and gets the bread you've been waiting for...

I like that Utah gives out 50% of the tags to random. Just wish it was 100% and while Utah is at it they should put all the "conservation" tags back into public draw.

I don't think random distribution of tags is socialism the way that you do but I do understand your argument. The real problem is when government picks winners and losers. For example all the "conservation" tags or outfitter welfare tags. Giving a public resource to special interests isn't something hunters should tolerate.

So if I stand in a bread line for 5 years I should be given bread before a 3 or 4 year old? Discrimination against new/young hunters is one of the big problems I have with point systems.

 

[WapitiBob]

"I didn't draw so the system needs to change."

 

[treedagain]

I like that Utah gives out 50% of the tags to random. Just wish it was 100% and while Utah is at it they should put all the "conservation" tags back into public draw.

I don't think random distribution of tags is socialism the way that you do but I do understand your argument. The real problem is when government picks winners and losers. For example all the "conservation" tags or outfitter welfare tags. Giving a public resource to special interests isn't something hunters should tolerate.

So if I stand in a bread line for 5 years I should be given bread before a 3 or 4 year old? Discrimination against new/young hunters is one of the big problems I have with point systems.

Lol....another picked on group that will lobby for protection

 

[roadrunner]

So if I stand in a bread line for 5 years I should be given bread before a 3 or 4 year old?

Not the same thing.

Discrimination against new/young hunters is one of the big problems I have with point systems.

Sounds like you're in favor of a youth being guarenteed a tag first day out, but not with an advantage over you...

 

[marburg]

No state has recently influenced the state of western hunting more than Utah. Most the tag and hunt pimp services started or are based there. Social media hunters....check. Biggest hunting expo in the US....check. Utah has done more to market and monetize Western Hunting than the next 6 states combined.

Sorry but time to live with the results of your efforts...expect more low BP draws in the future as new apps continue to flood in, and when it happens remember Utah, it's what you wanted and worked so darn hard for.

 

[roadrunner]

"I didn't draw so the system needs to change."

And then those who do will spout something similar when the system changes...

 

[BrianID]

Not the same thing.



Sounds like you're in favor of a youth being guarenteed a tag first day out, but not with an advantage over you...

If you like point systems, you are entitled to your opinion. Just like I'm entitled to my opinion that point systems have many flaws. More and more hunters are starting to realize how bad point systems are.

 

[roadrunner]

If you like point systems, you are entitled to your opinion. Just like I'm entitled to my opinion that point systems have many flaws. More and more hunters are starting to realize how bad point systems are.

Maybe because they can't draw a tag?

Depends on the point system. Naturally, those with little skin in the game don't like them.

UT's problem is not enough tags and too many "quality" units. As pointed out, UT has done this to itself, but by poor mangers, not hunters.

States like NM on the other hand have TV show hosts, podcasters, and YouTube stars yapping their jaws too much about the benefits of a no point system...

 

[BrianID]

Maybe because they can't draw a tag?

Depends on the point system. Naturally, those with little skin in the game don't like them.

UT's problem is not enough tags and too many "quality" units. As pointed out, UT has done this to itself, but by poor mangers, not hunters.

States like NM on the other hand have TV show hosts, podcasters, and YouTube stars yapping their jaws too much about the benefits of a no point system...

I'm playing the point game in AZ, UT, CO, NV, WY and MT. I've used points to draw many tags and will draw many tags with points in the future. I still don't like points. I would be happy to give up all my points in all those states if they went to random draw.

Point systems have many flaws. I actually believe that point systems decrease the number of tags I will draw over the next 10 or 20 years. One of my many arguments against point systems is that they encourage more applicants to apply every year than random draw. Many half hearted hunters don't apply every year in random draw but will apply in point systems every year to make sure they get their points. It is really simple math, more applicants every year will result in decreased draw odds.

One positive thing I can say about points is that I can somewhat predict when I have a good chance at drawing a tag.

The odds in 2021 have been much worse overall in every western state. Points did buffer my odds in NV this year with all the new applicants in all western states. Random states like Idaho and NM didn't have that advantage.

I don't think Utah's system is all that terrible, even though I would prefer pure random draw. As you pointed out, one challenge Utah has is a limited number of tags that have high demand. The geriatric monopoly on 50% of Utah's premium tags is already starting to happen but it will be more significant in 10-20 years. Assuming their is no change in Utah's draws, 50% of the sheep and premium tags (Henry's deer, San Juan elk, etc) will be given to geriatric hunters 30 years from now.

I would rather have a better chance of drawing a sheep tag while I'm younger and I'm more physically able to hunt than really good odds when I'm 70+. Assuming my health remains better than others and there are still as many sheep tags available, I should have a decent chance of getting some sheep tags in multiple states in 30-40 years.

 

[roadrunner]

Brian -

The increase in apps this year in NM is proof that a completely random draw shows you can have more of an increase in applicants than a point system and that a completely random system is unpredictable as to what your odds may be.

If you do the simple math, you have just as good a chance, if not better, to draw that sheep tag while you're young in UT than you do in NM because of how UT does their point system relative to the number of tags.

1 tag and 1000 applicants is the same for each state. NM you only have one shot. UT you may have several chances at that one shot to get the better draw number because if your points.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

UT's problem is not enough tags and too many "quality" units. As pointed out, UT has done this to itself, but by poor mangers, not hunters.

roadrunner spot on...

This is the problem right now with our general hunt's.

For deer we need moisture and feed in a bad way.

but as far as elk goes this is what is see when general bull elk tags go on sale.

But first remember we cut 5000 deer tags and only up the quota for any bull elk 2000 permits. we had the opportunity to open more unit's up and COVEY RECOMENDED IT but the board shut it down

It would of added 5,000 to 10,000 more permits but apparently the LE is more important than anything else.

Mark my words we will see all any bull tags sold out in the first day again...

general spike elk will be sold out in the first week or sooner..

So when all this goes down the general season bull elk will go to a draw as well no more first come first serve.

We need to open some of these LE unit's back up to any bull unit's period....

 

[BrianID]

The 2021 odds for NM haven't been made public from what I'm aware but I would agree that the odds were much worse there this year than previous years. Every state that has provided 2021 draw data so far shows a very significant increase in applications. I do agree that points help buffer the odds for a guy like me in a year like this. Unfortunately I didn't draw a single tag yet this year with applications in AZ, NM, CO, UT, NV, WY, ID or MT. I don't blame point systems for my bad luck this year. As already stated, I actually think point systems helped increase my odds in an unusual year like 2021.

The odds of drawing a sheep tag in different states is complicated. NM only gave out 2 nonresident ram tags in 2000 with about 1800 applicants. They gave out another 4 ram tags in the "outfitter welfare" pool with about 2100 applicants. Odds of drawing in the nonresident pool have been 1:900 and around 1:500 in outfitter pool.

In 2000 Utah gave out 10 nonresident ram tags but you can apply for desert and Rocky Mountain individually. There were about 11,000 applicants for 5 Rocky Mountain and about the same for 5 desert. There are approximately one nonresident ram tag for every 2,200 applicants. I would argue there have historically been close to twice the sheep applicants in Utah every year because the points attracted extra applicants. Sure my odds will eventually be better in Utah but that will take at least another 10 years.

For the fist several years of applying, the odds are without a doubt much better for nonresidents in NM. Idaho has even better odds at a sheep tag for nonresidents but that is also complicated by the fact if you apply for sheep, you can't apply for moose, goat, deer, elk or pronghorn. Assuming sheep tag numbers don't change in any state over the next 30 years, I believe my best odds of drawing a sheep tag are in Nevada. It isn't because Nevada's point system is superior. It is because Nevada gives out significantly more tags than Utah or NM.

 

[BrianID]

roadrunner spot on...

This is the problem right now with our general hunt's.

For deer we need moisture and feed in a bad way.

but as far as elk goes this is what is see when general bull elk tags go on sale.

But first remember we cut 5000 deer tags and only up the quota for any bull elk 2000 permits. we had the opportunity to open more unit's up and COVEY RECOMENDED IT but the board shut it down

It would of added 5,000 to 10,000 more permits but apparently the LE is more important than anything else.

Mark my words we will see all any bull tags sold out in the first day again...

general spike elk will be sold out in the first week or sooner..

So when all this goes down the general season bull elk will go to a draw as well no more first come first serve.

We need to open some of these LE unit's back up to any bull unit's period....

I would agree that it would make sense to switch to a draw system for the general elk permits. Increasing elk tags in some of the LE units is going to be a real fight. Many guys like it the way it is and want to keep an older age class of bulls. Many of the "welfare tags" in Utah also depend on keeping older bulls on the mountain so they can continue to make significant $$ off a public resource.

 

[roadrunner]

The 2021 odds for NM haven't been made public from what I'm aware but I would agree that the odds were much worse there this year than previous years. Every state that has provided 2021 draw data so far shows a very significant increase in applications. I do agree that points help buffer the odds for a guy like me in a year like this. Unfortunately I didn't draw a single tag yet this year with applications in AZ, NM, CO, UT, NV, WY, ID or MT. I don't blame point systems for my bad luck this year. As already stated, I actually think point systems helped increase my odds in an unusual year like 2021.

The odds of drawing a sheep tag in different states is complicated. NM only gave out 2 nonresident ram tags in 2000 with about 1800 applicants. They gave out another 4 ram tags in the "outfitter welfare" pool with about 2100 applicants. Odds of drawing in the nonresident pool have been 1:900 and around 1:500 in outfitter pool.

In 2000 Utah gave out 10 nonresident ram tags but you can apply for desert and Rocky Mountain individually. There were about 11,000 applicants for 5 Rocky Mountain and about the same for 5 desert. There are approximately one nonresident ram tag for every 2,200 applicants. I would argue there have historically been close to twice the sheep applicants in Utah every year because the points attracted extra applicants. Sure my odds will eventually be better in Utah but that will take at least another 10 years.

Except the stats you give are a total number, does UT draw per unit with those applicants only, or do they do a complete random shuffle like NM making you compete against ALL applications for a place at the head of the sheep line?

The 2021 draw results haven't been published yet, however, we do know there was a significant increase by percentage overall without a change in tag quota allocation. You can extrapolate out the individual species based on the overall increase to get an idea. If NM had a point system like UT's in place, that increase would not have affected anyone that has been in the game long term, only the remaining 50% and even then your chances would have still been better.

It is my fault completely for not drawing UT. Had I not been so keyed in on a certain unit, I would have been guaranteed a tag elsewhere with the number of points I have that would have produced just as good.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

I would agree that it would make sense to switch to a draw system for the general elk permits.

No it doesn't make sense we already have a problem with the general deer too many hunters complaining about it.

Increasing elk tags in some of the LE units is going to be a real fight. Many guys like it the way it is and want to keep an older age class of bulls.

Then quit shooting spikes period then you can add more tags....

 

[Elkslayer2015]

The 2021 draw results haven't been published yet

yes sir they have....

 

[BrianID]

yes sir they have....

we were talking about NM on a UT thread

 

[Elkslayer2015]

we were talking about NM on a UT thread

? threw me off

 

[BrianID]

No it doesn't make sense we already have a problem with the general deer too many hunters complaining about it.

Then quit shooting spikes period then you can add more tags....

You have a real uphill fight if you want to remove spike hunts in Utah.
What is your solution for elk tags in Utah? Switch LE units to general units and remove all the spike hunts and make it brow tine bulls like Colorado?

 

[BrianID]

Except the stats you give are a total number, does UT draw per unit with those applicants only, or do they do a complete random shuffle like NM making you compete against ALL applications for a place at the head of the sheep line?

The 2021 draw results haven't been published yet, however, we do know there was a significant increase by percentage overall without a change in tag quota allocation. You can extrapolate out the individual species based on the overall increase to get an idea. If NM had a point system like UT's in place, that increase would not have affected anyone that has been in the game long term, only the remaining 50% and even then your chances would have still been better.

It is my fault completely for not drawing UT. Had I not been so keyed in on a certain unit, I would have been guaranteed a tag elsewhere with the number of points I have that would have produced just as good.

Calculating sheep odds is complicated. In NM you basically have two hunt codes and then prioritize your units. Your actual odds are fairly easy to calculate.
Utah is more complicated because the number of applicants for different hunt codes varies more and then the preference point factor for each applicant. It isn't as easy to calculate. The bottom line is the number of applicants applying for a limited number of tags year after year divided by the number of tags will give you an estimate of your odds over the years. Yes, after I have 30 sheep points in Utah, my odds will be better than NM but for the first 10 years of applying, the odds are going to be much worse in Utah. Idaho without a doubt has much better odds with random draw than Utah's point system.

 

[roadrunner]

we were talking about NM on a UT thread

? threw me off

My intent is to compare UT's 50/50 random to NM's 100% random.

Utah is more complicated because the number of applicants for different hunt codes varies more and then the preference point factor for each applicant. It isn't as easy to calculate. The bottom line is the number of applicants applying for a limited number of tags year after year divided by the number of tags will give you an estimate of your odds over the years. Yes, after I have 30 sheep points in Utah, my odds will be better than NM but for the first 10 years of applying, the odds are going to be much worse in Utah. Idaho without a doubt has much better odds with random draw than Utah's point system.

You can if you run a Monte Carlo simulation. Here, you would see how many times the best draw number comes up against your own pool and then against all the hunters for the hunt code relative to the number of points you have for simulation runs. But then, I'm not a mathmagician either so...

It doesn't really mean anything though as any sheep hunt is near impossible to draw except for those who draw it!