Is it time for an 80/20 split in Utah

Those who advocate for a random system in Utah don't under stand basic math. If the system is 50/50, half the tags are random already. What's the difference (in real world terms) between 1 in 200 and 1 in 400 odds? Ya, its twice as good but you'll still never have a tag! Simple.

Those who advocate for a points system don't understand math, expense, time and being help hostage by a system which is overwhelmed from day-1 and continues on into the future. Simple.

The point is: everyone can be wrong and everyone can be right (so feel however you want) and damn few will ever get premium tags regardless of the permit distribution system. There's just too much demand on the dwindling resource.

Zeke
 
You have a real uphill fight if you want to remove spike hunts in Utah.
What is your solution for elk tags in Utah? Switch LE units to general units and remove all the spike hunts and make it brow tine bulls like Colorado?
I will get some slack for what I'm going to say it but it is the truth.

I'm not saying get rid of all LE elk units get rid of the low producer like what they presented earlier this year Nine Mile and The South west desert and i think it was a cache unit maybe add 3 corners to the list...

#1 Yes get rid of the spike hunt period they are our future bulls....
#2 run the archery LE ELK hunt threw September.
#3 run the muzzleloader hunt the last week of the archery hunt with no scopes.
#4 Then move the dam rifle hunt out of the Rut and put it in place of where the spike hunt was yes this will be more of a challenge and that's what we want a challenge.

I know I have been on a lot LE units during September during the rut and it is way easy to call in a mature bull within 500 yards hell even 300 yards. The way technology is with rifle and scopes these days it needs to be move I will bet that the success rate will drop on the rifle hunt.
But the problem is $$$$ and the other problem is they will not give up there rifle rut hunt because they know it's an easy hunt and I know it is an easy hunt.

So if we stop killing spikes on LE units you will have more bulls on the landscape period. which in turn more tags issued all the way around. make it harder for the rifle hunters to harvest a bull you will have more bull left on the landscape period.

now i already know what People will say why does the archery hunter need to have the rut they already get a month to hunt well in reality they don't hunt a month the average is around 13 to 14 days and the success rate is way lower.
archers ask the same thing about the rifle rut hunt.

It is a hell of a lot easier to kill one with a rifle plain and simple Go look at the Annual report and go to afield the rifle hunters get 9 days but on average they only hunt 5 to 6 days between all the LE unit's.
then look at the harvest success rate and how many tags and now compare it with archery it's all there and that's why the rifle hunt needs moved


for everyone that thinks it will be easier for archery hunters beep wrong answer. Calling them in will be challenge because they don't want to leave their cows. Sneaking in with in bow range will be even a bigger challenge too many eyes and satellite bulls around the herd (I know been there and done that in Idaho).
You can add more tags if you make the hunt harder and lower the success rate. Sorry I should add that we can add more if we wasn't in such a drought

And as far as general season any bull hunt I would honor antler point restriction on Elk to 4 point or better then everyone would have a chance at a good bull in a few years. Colorado has some good bulls in there over the counter units.

but if people like to spike hunt that's fine don't do an antler restriction you can shoot a spike on an any bull unit anyways But then we need to shut down some LE units like what they proposed before so we can Accommodate for the spike hunters making the transition over to the any bull units.

We have to do something at least for our kids or grandchildren or in 20 years we will be waiting 10 years to get GS bull elk tag we are already heading in that direction with deer.
 
Those who advocate for a random system in Utah don't under stand basic math. If the system is 50/50, half the tags are random already. What's the difference (in real world terms) between 1 in 200 and 1 in 400 odds? Ya, its twice as good but you'll still never have a tag! Simple.

Those who advocate for a points system don't understand math, expense, time and being help hostage by a system which is overwhelmed from day-1 and continues on into the future. Simple.

The point is: everyone can be wrong and everyone can be right (so feel however you want) and damn few will ever get premium tags regardless of the permit distribution system. There's just too much demand on the dwindling resource.

Zeke

It's not so much as understanding math, it's a matter of what has the best outcome for your situation, not everyone else's. In UT's case, I'd rather have 10 chances of drawing a single number out of a hat to stand my place in line over only 1 chance for that place in line.

State's like NM you only get that 1 chance every year. It's the same 1 chance every year, after year, after year. 20 years later, you keep drawing that 1 number that puts you to back of the line. The more chances you have to draw a better number (over time) will have the higher outcome of standing closer to the front of the line.

You may still never draw that tag, but the odds of a favorable outcome increase over time, assuming you are already in the right pool. Especially when you have a shot at the first 50% and the remaining 50%.

I agree, a new comer has zero to little chance of it being you.

More tags available and getting off this stupid flat-brim "trophy quality" crap would make a big difference. People wanting the 220" muley or 395" bull causes more problems, long term, on draws than a point/no point system...
 
Do you guys really believe Utah's system is better than Nevada? I have always liked the way Nevada squared their points. Maybe it's because I have drawn 2 premium tags in Nevada and nothing is Utah. Nonetheless, I will eventually draw in Utah.....
I think Nevada has the best draw system in the western United States. I have drawn 2 antelope tags there and 7 diff deer tags. Never hunter antelope in my home state yet.
 
I will get some slack for what I'm going to say it but it is the truth.

I'm not saying get rid of all LE elk units get rid of the low producer like what they presented earlier this year Nine Mile and The South west desert and i think it was a cache unit maybe add 3 corners to the list...

#1 Yes get rid of the spike hunt period they are our future bulls....
#2 run the archery LE ELK hunt threw September.
#3 run the muzzleloader hunt the last week of the archery hunt with no scopes.
#4 Then move the dam rifle hunt out of the Rut and put it in place of where the spike hunt was yes this will be more of a challenge and that's what we want a challenge.

I know I have been on a lot LE units during September during the rut and it is way easy to call in a mature bull within 500 yards hell even 300 yards. The way technology is with rifle and scopes these days it needs to be move I will bet that the success rate will drop on the rifle hunt.
But the problem is $$$$ and the other problem is they will not give up there rifle rut hunt because they know it's an easy hunt and I know it is an easy hunt.

So if we stop killing spikes on LE units you will have more bulls on the landscape period. which in turn more tags issued all the way around. make it harder for the rifle hunters to harvest a bull you will have more bull left on the landscape period.

now i already know what People will say why does the archery hunter need to have the rut they already get a month to hunt well in reality they don't hunt a month the average is around 13 to 14 days and the success rate is way lower.
archers ask the same thing about the rifle rut hunt.

It is a hell of a lot easier to kill one with a rifle plain and simple Go look at the Annual report and go to afield the rifle hunters get 9 days but on average they only hunt 5 to 6 days between all the LE unit's.
then look at the harvest success rate and how many tags and now compare it with archery it's all there and that's why the rifle hunt needs moved


for everyone that thinks it will be easier for archery hunters beep wrong answer. Calling them in will be challenge because they don't want to leave their cows. Sneaking in with in bow range will be even a bigger challenge too many eyes and satellite bulls around the herd (I know been there and done that in Idaho).
You can add more tags if you make the hunt harder and lower the success rate. Sorry I should add that we can add more if we wasn't in such a drought

And as far as general season any bull hunt I would honor antler point restriction on Elk to 4 point or better then everyone would have a chance at a good bull in a few years. Colorado has some good bulls in there over the counter units.

but if people like to spike hunt that's fine don't do an antler restriction you can shoot a spike on an any bull unit anyways But then we need to shut down some LE units like what they proposed before so we can Accommodate for the spike hunters making the transition over to the any bull units.

We have to do something at least for our kids or grandchildren or in 20 years we will be waiting 10 years to get GS bull elk tag we are already heading in that direction with deer.

I agree with your ideas. Decrease the success rates by adjusting the dates and then they can issue more tags.
 
So what difference does it make if all the elk are killed as spikes or raghorns? Utah has way more hunters than elk. Utah has very little elk habitat without vehicle access. The only option is to limit permits. As far as the lottery options I have NEVER drawn a tag that I didn't have MAX points needed for that hunt, NEVER in 50 years of hunting. So people who have my luck would NEVER be able to hunt without preference points.
 
So what difference does it make if all the elk are killed as spikes or raghorns?
I'm guessing you mean on General Season any bull units? If that is the case it really doesn't matter what gets harvested but if you want better quality of bulls on our general season units ( when your waiting 25 plus years to draw a LE tag) then antler restriction is where it's at it don't matter too me.

Spikes are young and stupid and they are really easy to harvest. raghorns are a little smarter and it defiantly more of a challenge.
Utah has way more hunters than elk.
You might be right on this but, if you are talking about general season permits remember the harvest on the any bull units is low If i had to guess probably only 10,000 to 15,000 elk get harvested every year in this state and i might be way high on this because the only accurate data we have is the LE units data, and remember there are roughly 80,000 elk in the state.
Utah has very little elk habitat without vehicle access.
I don't understand this? we can grow elk in this state no problem Deer is what we have a problem with...

My post strictly is for LE UNITS you want to move hunters threw the draw quicker then quit shooting spikes period.
They are our future bulls and move that dam cake walk early season rifle hunt out of the rut and make it more of a challenge for rifle hunters and the guides we need to make that hunt more of a challenge and if it is more of a challenge the success rate will drop and then we can add tags to these units probably a lot more we might could double the tags and cut the draw in half....
 
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Part of the thought behind the spike hunt is that the yearlings with better genetics will be the 2-points. The rut rifle hunt in the rut is a bigger problem for the future of trophy bulls for me. Killing the best bulls before most of the cows are bred. I had the biologist at that famous big cwmu tell me that didn't matter. The cows had the genetics as well. The first year or 2 of the cwmu program they killed a lot of bulls over 370, some 390+ each year. 28 years later a bull over 360 is rare. There are still plenty of 320 - 350 and the age is still plenty old but 27 years of skimming off the top before they breed?

Now some of the public units have some terrain that will allow some monsters to survive but those 'easy' big bull will continue to decline.

Many people won't accept that most bulls genetically will never reach 340 or so even at 10yo.

As far as elk vs deer population I know a biologist that swears the elk displace the deer. When I started hunting elk in Utah the state had 30,000 elk and lots more trophy bucks. Even on that famous ranch the deer quality is down and elk numbers way up.
 
Some "in the know" argue that the biggest, oldest bulls are NOT what you want breeding. They don't breed as many cows as the younger bulls do. I'm not a biologist, but this is a narrative I have heard from more than one person that seems to think they at least know what they are talking about.

As for genetics, this always cracks me up. A bull killed at 5 years old has the exact same genetic makeup that he would pass long if he lived and bred the next three years and was killed at 8 years old...right? So if you are concerned about genetics, what age they breed is 100% irrelevant.
 
Part of the thought behind the spike hunt is that the yearlings with better genetics will be the 2-points.
Yeah they tried selling that one too me before...I have only seen a hand full of two point and 3 point bulls in 25 years of hunting elk.
I run cameras and my friends and we get tons of rag horns and spikes and 1x2 on camera and we hardly ever get any 2 or 3 points on camera
so I call BS on that good genetics can be passed on even if it is a spike....spikes are our future bulls period.
The rut rifle hunt in the rut is a bigger problem for the future of trophy bulls for me. Killing the best bulls before most of the cows are bred.
Remember genetics it don't matter how young they are they still get bred with good genetics.

Trophy bulls are a thing of the past Like you stated 28 years ago is pretty close to when they started shutting down GS areas and making them LE units and then the spike hunts started and technology has sored threw the roof and wouldn't you know it looks like it's finally has caught up with us these days a big bull is 320 to 350 bulls and probably 80% of the hunters that apply for a LE unit will be plenty happy with that I know I would be.

A prime example the Book cliffs my back yard has tank drastically over the last 10 years and all us locals know its because we keep killing spikes...

You want more tags issued and cut this 25 year waiting period in half we need to stop killing our future bulls during the rut and move it to where it is more of a challenge and quit killing spikes period...
 
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