It's not just predators

Bigwiffy

Active Member
Messages
598
No doubt Boulder has been hammered by overgrazing, Pauns as well. Maybe something will be done?......Maybe not
 

TheOneRidgeRunner

Active Member
Messages
153
I recently hunted the Manti and seen some major devastation from over grazing of sheep in a few areas.
Don't know how the FS manages it but they need to address some of the owners/herders practices. A few canyons you'd be hard pressed to fill a wheel barrow with grass, yet you'd be able to get dump truck loads of sheep sh!t.
 

Gator

Long Time Member
Messages
17,405
Dry years don't help when they keep the same amount of animals on the same ground. Wet years it can and will come back.
No rain close it down or at least cutback the amount of livestock that can be ran.
I'm a pro Rancher and Pro BLM and FS grazing.
 

Sallaberry

Active Member
Messages
719
A cow eats as much as 32 antelope a day. I’m sure it’s in the teens or twenty’s for deer. It’s a good thing they keep ranchers on game boards.
 

ruger1022

Active Member
Messages
218
A cow eats as much as 32 antelope a day. I’m sure it’s in the teens or twenty’s for deer. It’s a good thing they keep ranchers on game boards.
That’s a little excessive. A very large cow might eat as much as 14 small antelope, but antelope and cows don’t target the same plants. Antelope and deer are primarily browsers, while cows graze. That doesn’t mean a cow won’t eat a little browse and an antelope won’t eat a little grass.

Just like poachers don’t represent all hunters, the ranchers who overgraze don’t represent all ranchers. There is absolutely public land that is overgrazed, but the good majority is managed well.

Public land ranchers and hunters are using the same public renewable resource. They should be allies not enemies.
 

ruger1022

Active Member
Messages
218
How About The Illegal ATV Abuse?

They Break a New Illegal Trail in to Closed Territory & The Following Year The USFS Puts a Number Sign on it!

WTF?
I have multiple areas I used to love to hunt. Roadless canyons that would take 10-15 minutes to hike into. Used to be great hunting, and there were a lot of cows there. The deer where there because of the water the ranchers brought in.

There is now a four-wheeler trail up every single one of those canyons. I haven’t seen a buck in those areas in years.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
That’s a little excessive. A very large cow might eat as much as 14 small antelope, but antelope and cows don’t target the same plants. Antelope and deer are primarily browsers, while cows graze. That doesn’t mean a cow won’t eat a little browse and an antelope won’t eat a little grass.

Just like poachers don’t represent all hunters, the ranchers who overgraze don’t represent all ranchers. There is absolutely public land that is overgrazed, but the good majority is managed well.

Public land ranchers and hunters are using the same public renewable resource. They should be allies not enemies.


Yup. But just like hunters love to turn in poachers, ranchers need to step up and police there own
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
I noticed in the one picture multiple roadways, but no mention of that in the article.
Pictures can and are misleading.
Hoss,
You get that news release from BHA and the Sierra Club.

It's always "interesting" to me when guys who have spent any time on a MTN, try to pretend that what they see with their own eyes can't be true because a bush hippy sees it as well.

I guess, according to your logic, it's much better to destroy the habitat of the animals we hunt, rather than agree with a hippy? I mean sure, critter numbers are down, tags will follow, but at least you didn't agree with the Sierra Club on overgrazing, right?🙄
 

Warbo

Active Member
Messages
173
Just like poachers don’t represent all hunters, the ranchers who overgraze don’t represent all ranchers. There is absolutely public land that is overgrazed, but the good majority is managed well.
Yessir that’s for sure. My grandpa and uncle run about 1800 pair plus bulls and replacement heifers and they do lots of work for and with the forest service and dwr. Not all ranchers are bad and selfish but with that said there defiantly are some who are.
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,083
2 million acres in the desert were overgrazed? There are a lot of details left out of the article. Oh, what does this have to do with predators?
 

JPblind

Active Member
Messages
369
See the samething here in Idaho this year. Everything is chewed down to stubble and the few springs we do have are caked with cattle ****. Ranchers still have their cattle out on public land this time of year. I don't see any of this local beef in our super markets (hope its not being shipped over seas). So where is the return for using our dollars to maintain these lands?
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
2 million acres in the desert were overgrazed? There are a lot of details left out of the article. Oh, what does this have to do with predators?


Not just predators putting hurt on wildlife, lack of food, particularly calorie dense food as they head to winter, does as much if not more to hurt
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
See the samething here in Idaho this year. Everything is chewed down to stubble and the few springs we do have are caked with cattle ****. Ranchers still have their cattle out on public land this time of year. I don't see any of this local beef in our super markets (hope its not being shipped over seas). So where is the return for using our dollars to maintain these lands?


That's the rub, especially in Utah. It gets grazed to dust(same ranchers year in year out), which forces the wildlife into town, onto farms, and, onto private(CWMU).

For CWMU there is a double financial incentive to over graze public, and save the private.


Nutrition= deer. Nutrition = elk. Winter kill and mortality kill a ton more than any cat or coyote.

Fact is, it's the same handful of ******** ranchers who overgraze and destroy. Problem is, no good rancher ever steps up and leads the charge to stop it.

Hunters and bush hippies shouldn't be the ones pointing it out
 

ruger1022

Active Member
Messages
218
Another thing to consider is with this drought, sometimes range managers will let a producer over graze for a year because there is literally nowhere else to go. Private pasture is impossible to find this year and the price of hay is extremely high. The condition is if they hammer the feed this year they will have to cut back next year even if there is plenty of rain to give the plants a chance to recoup.

There’s plenty of ungrazed range ground that looks hammered this year. You know what makes everyone a great wildlife manager, range specialists, or rancher? Rain and snow
 

elks96

Very Active Member
Messages
2,743
Sorry but this is a pretty hack article. He is nothing more than another extremist, a green decoy. Sorry but his entire website is nothing but political hot topics and writings filled with 1/2 truths and lies.

Grazing is regulated, it may look rough in such droughts as we see now, but no one prints or uses these photos or claims when there is even average moisture. Yes in extreme times like now it is concerning, but these article and photos never seem to be relevant on average years and you never hear this at all on good years.
 

HikeHunt61

Active Member
Messages
216
Ya elks96, seems like a pretty far-left org disguised by a former hunter. The articles on carbon emissions from cattle always crack me up. If you count how many bison, elk and other ungulates that used to be in North America before the evil white man came- and compared them to cattle population + current wildlife today, you have a wash. Yet cattle are the ultimate evil of the left. Farts I guess :) And then they talk about forest management- and I simply had to stop reading before I added to the carbon problem...
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
Another thing to consider is with this drought, sometimes range managers will let a producer over graze for a year because there is literally nowhere else to go. Private pasture is impossible to find this year and the price of hay is extremely high. The condition is if they hammer the feed this year they will have to cut back next year even if there is plenty of rain to give the plants a chance to recoup.

There’s plenty of ungrazed range ground that looks hammered this year. You know what makes everyone a great wildlife manager, range specialists, or rancher? Rain and snow


That true. But that's kinda the point that even the author made, when does livestock outweigh wildlife?

And in fairness, there's lots of hay, most of it was shipped to China and Saudi Arabia.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
Ya elks96, seems like a pretty far-left org disguised by a former hunter. The articles on carbon emissions from cattle always crack me up. If you count how many bison, elk and other ungulates that used to be in North America before the evil white man came- and compared them to cattle population + current wildlife today, you have a wash. Yet cattle are the ultimate evil of the left. Farts I guess :) And then they talk about forest management- and I simply had to stop reading before I added to the carbon problem...


And there it is.

A Bush hippies, sees overgrazing, but because he's a bush hippy, we look past the issue, which affects us, and attack the messenger.

It's ironic, some of the same guys that mock California for lack of forest management, will look past lack of range management, because a D said it🙄


Bet ya $50 whichever lease owner did it this year, does it every year, drought or not.

Hard for the DWR to grow herds, if they are eating dirt and dust
 

elks96

Very Active Member
Messages
2,743
The other issue with this of mentality displayed by the author is they give no credit for the benefits ranchers provide to wildlife. In Colorado for example the only people left doing predator management and the only reason we have any predator control at all on the state or federal level is due to ranchers and livestock. The only other large group that stood against reintroduction were ranchers. When the trapping bans occur ranchers and hunters tend to be on the same side.

As mentioned above the development of water sources, springs, wind mills, pumps, etc. All done by ranchers. Fighting noxious weeds that are spread by all sorts of activities are addressed by and for ranchers. It is short sighted and intellectually dishonest not to look at the benefits in combination with the cost.

Are there times where ranchers go to far, as there times where land managers overgraze, and need to do better, the answer is yes.

For me the most important aspect, is being involved. Letting your voice be heard at the governing agencies. Letting the land managers know you are watching and that you expect them to maintain a certain level of quality. When they fail be knocking down that door and pressure them o fix the issue.
 

elks96

Very Active Member
Messages
2,743
And there it is.

A Bush hippies, sees overgrazing, but because he's a bush hippy, we look past the issue, which affects us, and attack the messenger.

It's ironic, some of the same guys that mock California for lack of forest management, will look past lack of range management, because a D said it🙄


Bet ya $50 whichever lease owner did it this year, does it every year, drought or not.

Hard for the DWR to grow herds, if they are eating dirt and dust

Willing to bet not, simply because if they over graze every year they eventually have nothing to graze and the rancher is out of business. Sorry but it was a hack article devoid of facts and full of trumped up bs.

The article with written with a single purpose in mind and excluded anything that did not fit the narrative that ranchers are evil.

Sorry but even if a place is grubbed down does not mean it has been over grazed. Then even if it is over grazed does not mean it has been destroyed. It all depends on the management approach and the system being used. With out any actual knowledge of the grazing system used we have no idea what the actual status of this range is. Is this a rotational allotment? Is is a bank allotment? Are they using a system where one year the graze it hard, then cut back grazing every year for a decade then end up with a surplus and hammer it again? Was this in fact a one time emergency use situation?

Simply put any rancher who constantly overgrazes will eventually be out of the business.

There is literally no facts, no science presented in the article at all. It is all assumptions. That is why this is a hack article. They presented nothing showing that range in the pictures presented has had any negative impact on the wildlife. When you do such studies, you will find some very interesting things. But scapegoating all ranchers for the decrease in game is short sighted and dishonest at best.
 

ruger1022

Active Member
Messages
218
And there it is.

A Bush hippies, sees overgrazing, but because he's a bush hippy, we look past the issue, which affects us, and attack the messenger.

It's ironic, some of the same guys that mock California for lack of forest management, will look past lack of range management, because a D said it🙄


Bet ya $50 whichever lease owner did it this year, does it every year, drought or not.

Hard for the DWR to grow herds, if they are eating dirt and dust
All the producers I work with took big cuts this year, the drought is just that bad.

About growing herds… I’m blown away with cutting tags during drought. The DWR is doing the exact opposite of what you should be doing during a drought. Cut number (increase tags)… yet we cut tags when populations can’t grow, but give out more tags during good years when the land can support good numbers.

These bad drought years are when we should be taking numbers down so the animals we leave have to compete less and be able to raise their young. To me, this is a horrible year to be cutting tags.
 

HikeHunt61

Active Member
Messages
216
Hoss- I'm not saying that sometimes some rancher does not overgraze an area. Just like in every profession, there are good ones and bad ones. Zero doubt there are those in the industry that don't care or feel they have no choice or whatever it is that leads to a bad situation. What I am saying is, Elks96 is right about the author and the website. The author concludes that termination of grazing privileges due to "vandalism" and "annihilation" is the response. They will only show the one side (the worst pictures of some place possible) to make their point. I haven't been to the Dixie NF to see the big picture, so can't comment specifically. I have been to many, many other places and do not see the same thing. Frankly, I look at every one of those fenced off zones to see the difference (you know, the ones the forest service or BLM puts up to show the grazing impact). I'm always amazed to see so little if any difference.

Maybe this one time, in this one place, this "bush hippy" is right. Maybe. But his motivation is much, much broader than that.
 

DW

Long Time Member
Messages
14,333
Where's grizz to admonish hoss for believing everything he reads? The
Ranchers are one of the users BHA shoulda threw in with. Instead, they went with Yvon.......
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
Willing to bet not, simply because if they over graze every year they eventually have nothing to graze and the rancher is out of business. Sorry but it was a hack article devoid of facts and full of trumped up bs.

The article with written with a single purpose in mind and excluded anything that did not fit the narrative that ranchers are evil.

Sorry but even if a place is grubbed down does not mean it has been over grazed. Then even if it is over grazed does not mean it has been destroyed. It all depends on the management approach and the system being used. With out any actual knowledge of the grazing system used we have no idea what the actual status of this range is. Is this a rotational allotment? Is is a bank allotment? Are they using a system where one year the graze it hard, then cut back grazing every year for a decade then end up with a surplus and hammer it again? Was this in fact a one time emergency use situation?

Simply put any rancher who constantly overgrazes will eventually be out of the business.

There is literally no facts, no science presented in the article at all. It is all assumptions. That is why this is a hack article. They presented nothing showing that range in the pictures presented has had any negative impact on the wildlife. When you do such studies, you will find some very interesting things. But scapegoating all ranchers for the decrease in game is short sighted and dishonest at best.


I missed the "all" part. It did in fact show pics of, and made reference to Dixie NF, and more particular, the boulder.

And NO. They don't get forced out of buisness. Cloven Bundy proves that daily
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,239
Willing to bet not, simply because if they over graze every year they eventually have nothing to graze and the rancher is out of business. Sorry but it was a hack article devoid of facts and full of trumped up bs.

The article with written with a single purpose in mind and excluded anything that did not fit the narrative that ranchers are evil.

Sorry but even if a place is grubbed down does not mean it has been over grazed. Then even if it is over grazed does not mean it has been destroyed. It all depends on the management approach and the system being used. With out any actual knowledge of the grazing system used we have no idea what the actual status of this range is. Is this a rotational allotment? Is is a bank allotment? Are they using a system where one year the graze it hard, then cut back grazing every year for a decade then end up with a surplus and hammer it again? Was this in fact a one time emergency use situation?

Simply put any rancher who constantly overgrazes will eventually be out of the business.

There is literally no facts, no science presented in the article at all. It is all assumptions. That is why this is a hack article. They presented nothing showing that range in the pictures presented has had any negative impact on the wildlife. When you do such studies, you will find some very interesting things. But scapegoating all ranchers for the decrease in game is short sighted and dishonest at best.
Hoss
Listen to someone that knows the buisness
It's always "interesting" to me when guys who have spent any time on a MTN, try to pretend that what they see with their own eyes can't be true because a bush hippy sees it as well.

I guess, according to your logic, it's much better to destroy the habitat of the animals we hunt, rather than agree with a hippy? I mean sure, critter numbers are down, tags will follow, but at least you didn't agree with the Sierra Club on overgrazing, right?🙄
I can go out this weekend and take pictures too show land that looks just as bad if not worse and no cattle or sheep grazed on the land, it is not hard to take some pictures and use them to misguided people's opinions.
The BLM and Forest Service control the range management if there is bad management going on talk to the proper agency.
I know of multiple cattle owners that had permit numbers and length of grazing seriously cut back last year and again this year.

That true. But that's kinda the point that even the author made, when does livestock outweigh wildlife?

And in fairness, there's lots of hay, most of it was shipped to China and Saudi Arabia.
The statement "there's lots of hay, most of it is going to China and Saudi Arabia" is flat out lack of knowledge or a lie.
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,083
Not just predators putting hurt on wildlife, lack of food, particularly calorie dense food as they head to winter, does as much if not more to hurt
Just messin with ya! The cattle should definitely be taken off of public land in a timely manner. Typically it's in early October in some states, I believe. Also, they should only run enough head to properly leave enough forage for wildlife and to be able to graze the following year, especially during drought condistions.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
Hoss
Listen to someone that knows the buisness

I can go out this weekend and take pictures too show land that looks just as bad if not worse and no cattle or sheep grazed on the land, it is not hard to take some pictures and use them to misguided people's opinions.
The BLM and Forest Service control the range management if there is bad management going on talk to the proper agency.
I know of multiple cattle owners that had permit numbers and length of grazing seriously cut back last year and again this year.


The statement "there's lots of hay, most of it is going to China and Saudi Arabia" is flat out lack of knowledge or a lie.


Google Baileys, in Ephraim, tell me where the Sanpete hay goes.

And a big chunk out of the surrounding counties.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
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1,239
Google Baileys, in Ephraim, tell me where the Sanpete hay goes.

And a big chunk out of the surrounding counties.
Come on hoss that is not what you claimed.
I know all about Baileys and the cubing operations throughout Utah and they are fighting for every bale of hay tgey can get.
Look into Salina Producer's Livestock Auction they are selling cattle at record amounts week end and week out. I was talking to an employee from Producer's and she said they Auctioned until after midnight this last week, they had cattle coming from the east Colorado to the West Nevada from the north in Idaho to the south Grand Canyon country.
I supposed that is because there is "lots of hay" to feed the livestock.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
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6,299
Come on hoss that is not what you claimed.
I know all about Baileys and the cubing operations throughout Utah and they are fighting for every bale of hay tgey can get.
Look into Salina Producer's Livestock Auction they are selling cattle at record amounts week end and week out. I was talking to an employee from Producer's and she said they Auctioned until after midnight this last week, they had cattle coming from the east Colorado to the West Nevada from the north in Idaho to the south Grand Canyon country.
I supposed that is because there is "lots of hay" to feed the livestock.


Never said cheap hay. But further, so what? My materials are jumping 15% every quarter. Gas costs me $3.99.. The government isn't cutting me some deal.

So in order to keep Saudi dairy farms supplied with hay, we should allow MTN permits to feed into dust? We should sacrifice our herds, and yeah that Manti herd is suffering, so the Chinese can feed their cows?

I know. Some bush hippy said it, gotta be wrong. Reality is, overgrazing happens. Just like there are bad hunters, there are bad permit holders. And NO, they don't go out of business. It's near impossible to get their permit taken from them.

I'm still pro public grazing, Im just not willfully blinded by political persuasion
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
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4,745
I just can’t resist a good cow rant. But this seems to be about ranchers, who I am generally supportive of.

In my observation, rich welfare cowboys (some around here are big ‘tard operations) will let their cows eat the very last blade of grass if the forest circus would let them.

However, the hippies have had their birkenstocks on their throats for a couple of decades now. So you can barely walk thru the woods in most places for the undergrowth.

BLM is another matter entirely.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,239
Never said cheap hay. But further, so what? My materials are jumping 15% every quarter. Gas costs me $3.99.. The government isn't cutting me some deal.

So in order to keep Saudi dairy farms supplied with hay, we should allow MTN permits to feed into dust? We should sacrifice our herds, and yeah that Manti herd is suffering, so the Chinese can feed their cows?

I know. Some bush hippy said it, gotta be wrong. Reality is, overgrazing happens. Just like there are bad hunters, there are bad permit holders. And NO, they don't go out of business. It's near impossible to get their permit taken from them.

I'm still pro public grazing, Im just not willfully blinded by political persuasion
Capitalism, the Free Market have you ever heard of that?
I am not arguing about hay going over to China or Saudi, i am arguing the average alfalfa producer produced more than 1/3 less of hay this year than last year and some areas 2/3 less. That means livestock owners have less to buy and yes big money operations like Baileys are going to outbid the smaller operations.
Finally you admit what others have been trying to point out that there is some bad ranchers but most are good. Good on you hoss it only took 39 posts to see you state that.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
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6,299
Capitalism, the Free Market have you ever heard of that?
I am not arguing about hay going over to China or Saudi, i am arguing the average alfalfa producer produced more than 1/3 less of hay this year than last year and some areas 2/3 less. That means livestock owners have less to buy and yes big money operations like Baileys are going to outbid the smaller operations.
Finally you admit what others have been trying to point out that there is some bad ranchers but most are good. Good on you hoss it only took 39 posts to see you state that.


Read my OP, sorry you missed my "Im pro grazing".

Funny. You mention capitalism, then talk about grazing. Not exactly the same thing.

Not a lot of "capitalism" in gov programs. Or did I miss the open market bidding on acreages or tonnages.


Like I said. It can't be some hippy pointing out shitty land management, because that offended that R gang jersey, and you'd rather starve off the wildlife, than admit a hippy is right.

No worries, I won't force you To admit, you've seen the same practices, unless your Ray Charles

But that's the point. It's a drought. Reservoirs dried up. As you point out, hay crops were down 1/3-2/3. So was the MTN feed. Same water that didn't grow hay, didn't grow grass. Yet, there wasn't 1/3-2/3 reduction in livestock on the MTN. Yeah, they were delayed a week or so, but not shut off 25-75%.

Which is why the range, in more than one place "next to a road", looks like it does.


The simple point, I and others know who the hacks are in my industry. And we have no problem pointing it out, and calling it out. The same can be true for ranchers
 
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Messages
90
This may be a controversial statement but I’d strongly support a bill that would outlaw public land grazing domestic sheep aka mountain maggots. They damn near wiped out bighorns because spreading of disease and the habitat destruction has been horrendous also.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
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6,299
This may be a controversial statement but I’d strongly support a bill that would outlaw public land grazing domestic sheep aka mountain maggots. They damn near wiped out bighorns because spreading of disease and the habitat destruction has been horrendous also.


Come on. According to notdon, we can't point that out, because there are good ranchers. Plus, I know those hippies at BHA have been on that, so obviously, it can't be true🙄
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,872
No doubt Boulder has been hammered by overgrazing, Pauns as well. Maybe something will be done?......Maybe not
The Paunsaugunt has one of the healthiest mule deer populations in the country, even with grazing. The only thing hurting it was lack of rain this summer.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,239
Read my OP, sorry you missed my "Im pro grazing".

Funny. You mention capitalism, then talk about grazing. Not exactly the same thing.

Not a lot of "capitalism" in gov programs. Or did I miss the open market bidding on acreages or tonnages.


Like I said. It can't be some hippy pointing out shitty land management, because that offended that R gang jersey, and you'd rather starve off the wildlife, than admit a hippy is right.

No worries, I won't force you To admit, you've seen the same practices, unless your Ray Charles

But that's the point. It's a drought. Reservoirs dried up. As you point out, hay crops were down 1/3-2/3. So was the MTN feed. Same water that didn't grow hay, didn't grow grass. Yet, there wasn't 1/3-2/3 reduction in livestock on the MTN. Yeah, they were delayed a week or so, but not shut off 25-75%.

Which is why the range, in more than one place "next to a road", looks like it does.


The simple point, I and others know who the hacks are in my industry. And we have no problem pointing it out, and calling it out. The same can be true for ranchers
Do you really call out the bad apples in your industry, I have no idea you do
Do you know forsure ranchers are not calling out the bad livestock operations, I have no idea if they are.

Maybe you should check with livestock operations most took some real cuts in numbers and time on range.
Yes I know personally two operations running on BLM that took permit cuts 15% and cuts on time cattle could be on the range a little over a month.
 

DW

Long Time Member
Messages
14,333
Do you really call out the bad apples in your industry, I have no idea you do
Do you know forsure ranchers are not calling out the bad livestock operations, I have no idea if they are.

Maybe you should check with livestock operations most took some real cuts in numbers and time on range.
Yes I know personally two operations running on BLM that took permit cuts 15% and cuts on time cattle could be on the range a little over a month.


But that's not what the Bush hippies said, so Hoss has a hard time believing it.
 

eelgrass

Long Time Member
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28,020
Given that the ultimate goal of the bush hippie is to reduce the number of cattle to cut back on methane gas and thus save the planet from climate change, it is no surprise.

The same bush hippie will sue you if you talk of reducing feral horses. It's almost like they have another goal in mind.
 

antlerradar

Active Member
Messages
586
Edit: would not want to slander the brush hippy.


People like this need a villain to help with fund raising for there organization. It is likely not a coincidence that now that the Biden Administration has put the breaks on oil and gas that negative stories are showing up about grazing. If the brush hippy's ever get the ranchers beat down to very little, I predict it will not be long and hunting will be in their sights.
 
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hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
Do you really call out the bad apples in your industry, I have no idea you do
Do you know forsure ranchers are not calling out the bad livestock operations, I have no idea if they are.

Maybe you should check with livestock operations most took some real cuts in numbers and time on range.
Yes I know personally two operations running on BLM that took permit cuts 15% and cuts on time cattle could be on the range a little over a month.


So?

So hay production due to drought, using your numbers was down 25-75%, and a couple dudes you know supposedly were cut 15%?

It's really is amazing watching you stand on your head trying so desperately to not admit what everyone knows just because a bush hippy said it. Your right. There is zero overgrazing. Guys like Cliven Bundy don't really exist. Malnourished wildlife doesn't happen. All the data on "green waves", nutrients in fawn mortality, or noxious weed takeover, isn't true. None of it, because God forbid, a D wrote an article.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
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6,299
But that's not what the Bush hippies said, so Hoss has a hard time believing it.


Bush hippy said the Dixie Forest was grazed to dirt.

Seeings how the Dixie Forest has been in extreme drought for years, it's probably true, in places.

No worries though, it's not like the Boulder(the area specifically mentioned) produces and good wildlife anyway, so who cares if the natural grasses are destroyed and replaced by noxious weeds, right. I mean it's only the best elk unit in the state, and probably top 5 in the country. But, that stupid hippy said it, so F them elk!!
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
Edit: would not want to slander the brush hippy.


People like this need a villain to help with fund raising for there organization. It is likely not a coincidence that now that the Biden Administration has put the breaks on oil and gas that negative stories are showing up about grazing. If the brush hippy's ever get the ranchers beat down to very little, I predict it will not be long and hunting will be in their sights.
[/QU

If they don't police there own, it won't just be some bush hippy coming for them.

Not sure on a hunting forum wildlife is such a distant concern on PUBLIC LAND, to oil drillers and grazers.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,239
So?

So hay production due to drought, using your numbers was down 25-75%, and a couple dudes you know supposedly were cut 15%?

It's really is amazing watching you stand on your head trying so desperately to not admit what everyone knows just because a bush hippy said it. Your right. There is zero overgrazing. Guys like Cliven Bundy don't really exist. Malnourished wildlife doesn't happen. All the data on "green waves", nutrients in fawn mortality, or noxious weed takeover, isn't true. None of it, because God forbid, a D wrote an article.
So according to you a month less of BLM grazing does not count as a cut.
I supposed if the government did not let you work for a month that would be no big deal, that lost income would mean nothing at the end of the year.
Hoss where have I said overgrazing does not happen.
But keep that mantra up hossblur the only way for you to continue to denigrate is to put words in others mouths or should we say typed on the screen.
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,083
G
This may be a controversial statement but I’d strongly support a bill that would outlaw public land grazing domestic sheep aka mountain maggots. They damn near wiped out bighorns because spreading of disease and the habitat destruction has been horrendous also.
Good luck
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
So according to you a month less of BLM grazing does not count as a cut.
I supposed if the government did not let you work for a month that would be no big deal, that lost income would mean nothing at the end of the year.
Hoss where have I said overgrazing does not happen.
But keep that mantra up hossblur the only way for you to continue to denigrate is to put words in others mouths or should we say typed on the screen.


As opposed to yours where anyone who says something you dont agree with gets news releases from "BHA or Sierra Club"?

So overgrazing does happen, you just can't bring yourself to agree with the source. That's some real intellectual honesty.

You don't get it both ways, it either does, or doesn't happen. And it's much more likely to happen on the Dixie, than the Uintas, based solely on precipitation amounts.

You keep talking about "the government" cutting. The government, job is to MANAGE the range for ALL parties, not just the producer. And it's no secret. Producers are more than welcome to lease or buy pasture land, if they don't like the terms. The reason they don't, the rates are extremely fair.

I'll also notice you didn't mention many of them got extended this fall, so that "month" didn't end up being that.

WE as hunters are dumping a ton of money into research on deer/elk. The results are showing NUTRITION as the biggest factor in herd improvements. In good years, grazing does little to affect that. In continual drought years, it does to a greater affect. In extreme drought, it's not just food, but water sources become a bigger deal. Deer and elk won't march into a spring surrounded by cows. Neither compete with them.

So yeah, there are a majority of good ranchers. But in bad years, the bad ones magnify issues.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
27,933
Big Stiffy is Looking at the Rain We Had Later in the Early Fall I Guess?

I Can't Vouch for the Pauns?

But Several Other Place I've Been Were Mighty GAWD-DAMNED Dry Early in the year!

I Seen A Couple of Bulls This Year That I Seen Last Year that were 40"-50" Smaller This Year!





Then why were there approximately 15 tags turned in "due to severe drought conditions" according to DWR?
 

Bigwiffy

Active Member
Messages
598
Then why were there approximately 15 tags turned in "due to severe drought conditions" according to DWR?
I guess reading stuff off the internet is more reliable than being there? Top end on the Pauns has been creamed off. That's why the tags were turned in.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,872
I guess reading stuff off the internet is more reliable than being there? Top end on the Pauns has been creamed off. That's why the tags were turned in.
I don't know where you get your information, but nothing has been "creamed off", there has been some fantastic bucks harvested there this year.
It's just tougher now because they can't hunt over piles of apples.
 

Bigwiffy

Active Member
Messages
598
I don't know where you get your information, but nothing has been "creamed off", there has been some fantastic bucks harvested there this year.
It's just tougher now because they can't hunt over piles of apples.
If 175" bucks are "fantastic" bucks then have at it. So you say there are fantastic bucks killed, but yet due to the drought and no big bucks people have turned their tags in??? 🤔 Check the water report, Pauns Plateau is above average.
 

elks96

Very Active Member
Messages
2,743
As opposed to yours where anyone who says something you dont agree with gets news releases from "BHA or Sierra Club"?

So overgrazing does happen, you just can't bring yourself to agree with the source. That's some real intellectual honesty.

You don't get it both ways, it either does, or doesn't happen. And it's much more likely to happen on the Dixie, than the Uintas, based solely on precipitation amounts.

You keep talking about "the government" cutting. The government, job is to MANAGE the range for ALL parties, not just the producer. And it's no secret. Producers are more than welcome to lease or buy pasture land, if they don't like the terms. The reason they don't, the rates are extremely fair.

I'll also notice you didn't mention many of them got extended this fall, so that "month" didn't end up being that.

WE as hunters are dumping a ton of money into research on deer/elk. The results are showing NUTRITION as the biggest factor in herd improvements. In good years, grazing does little to affect that. In continual drought years, it does to a greater affect. In extreme drought, it's not just food, but water sources become a bigger deal. Deer and elk won't march into a spring surrounded by cows. Neither compete with them.

So yeah, there are a majority of good ranchers. But in bad years, the bad ones magnify issues.
I would love to see these studies you claim are overwhelmingly showing that nutrition is a main factor and that livestock grazing is the cause of decreased nutrition. Studies I personally have worked in NW Colorado have shown that nutrition is not currently a limiting factor on mule deer. In fact the study showed the opposite. Deer in NW Colorado today are fatter, more likely to have and carry twins to term, they have higher body scores both pre and post winter on average than they ever did in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Yes nutrition is a actor but as you pointed out, that lack of nutrition is usually associated with drought and not necessarily with grazing.

So please share the studies that support your claim that nutrition is the issue and that lack of nutrition is directly tied to grazing by domestic livestock.
 

BrowningRage

Long Time Member
Messages
3,534
My own anecdotal experience with this is regarding the Book Cliffs. In 2009 and 2011 my uncle and dad had tags for the unit. While hunting in October, there were no cows anywhere.

Fast forward to 2016 when I had the tag, and this year my cousin had a tag... There were cows everywhere. I know the deer herd in the Book Cliffs has been declining, and it seems cattle grazing has increased there. Maybe there IS correlation... :unsure::unsure:
 

elks96

Very Active Member
Messages
2,743
My own anecdotal experience with this is regarding the Book Cliffs. In 2009 and 2011 my uncle and dad had tags for the unit. While hunting in October, there were no cows anywhere.

Fast forward to 2016 when I had the tag, and this year my cousin had a tag... There were cows everywhere. I know the deer herd in the Book Cliffs has been declining, and it seems cattle grazing has increased there. Maybe there IS correlation... :unsure::unsure:
But how can you say that without actual knowledge of the grazing permits and practice? Without knowing what process the land manager and rancher are using... There are many different systems that you can use for rotational grazing etc. Some systems give a pasture a break for 2-3 years then slowly increase grazing for 5 years then a 2 year break. Some pasture or permit areas are "grass" banks where they are only grazed in extreme conditions (like when a fire displaces grazing some place else or excessive drought), Some areas might allow grazing early and late, others may allow them at different times. I just point this out because there are some general rules to permits, but individual areas and ranchers may be doing and trying different things.

I only point this out because people often simplify the issue and fail to realize that it can be much more complex than just you get X number of cows X number of days. Which is exactly why the original pictures that the article shared are suspect. The one side of fence looks different than the other. We have no idea why that is occurring. There are dozens of possibilities... One side is the grass bank, once side was only grazed early and the other late, or the permit in the area switched every 5 years from one side to the other, or the water on the side was way far away and the other side there was a pond 100 yards away.

That is the exact problem with the original article, the problem with most of these debates. No one actually takes the time to consult with the land managers or the ranchers to determine the process, no facts, no data just assumptions.

This was not meant to be a shot at you as much as at the entire thread.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,239
If 175" bucks are "fantastic" bucks then have at it. So you say there are fantastic bucks killed, but yet due to the drought and no big bucks people have turned their tags in??? 🤔 Check the water report, Pauns Plateau is above average.
The water year starts October1 so if you are looking at the current report then it does show the Paunsaugunt is above average because the Paunsaugunt and most of the State is above moisture average since October 1.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,872
If 175" bucks are "fantastic" bucks then have at it. So you say there are fantastic bucks killed, but yet due to the drought and no big bucks people have turned their tags in??? 🤔 Check the water report, Pauns Plateau is above average.
You may want to expand your sources on harvests, I've not said anything about any 175" bucks.

That's great the water reports are above average, my quote was from the DNR's mouth to me on how many tags were returned and their reasoning for doing so.
 

BrowningRage

Long Time Member
Messages
3,534
But how can you say that without actual knowledge of the grazing permits and practice? Without knowing what process the land manager and rancher are using... There are many different systems that you can use for rotational grazing etc. Some systems give a pasture a break for 2-3 years then slowly increase grazing for 5 years then a 2 year break. Some pasture or permit areas are "grass" banks where they are only grazed in extreme conditions (like when a fire displaces grazing some place else or excessive drought), Some areas might allow grazing early and late, others may allow them at different times. I just point this out because there are some general rules to permits, but individual areas and ranchers may be doing and trying different things.

I only point this out because people often simplify the issue and fail to realize that it can be much more complex than just you get X number of cows X number of days. Which is exactly why the original pictures that the article shared are suspect. The one side of fence looks different than the other. We have no idea why that is occurring. There are dozens of possibilities... One side is the grass bank, once side was only grazed early and the other late, or the permit in the area switched every 5 years from one side to the other, or the water on the side was way far away and the other side there was a pond 100 yards away.

That is the exact problem with the original article, the problem with most of these debates. No one actually takes the time to consult with the land managers or the ranchers to determine the process, no facts, no data just assumptions.

This was not meant to be a shot at you as much as at the entire thread.
I only shared an anecdote, and I said "maybe there's a correlation"... elks96, my friend, go destroy a couple targets at your favorite range, eat a cheeseburger and relax a bit. 🙂🙂
 

elks96

Very Active Member
Messages
2,743
I only shared an anecdote, and I said "maybe there's a correlation"... elks96, my friend, go destroy a couple targets at your favorite range, eat a cheeseburger and relax a bit. 🙂🙂
Yeah read to the end. I clearly stated this was not so much about you but about the thread in general. And how people over simplify the process with out any actual facts, data etc. Again just like the article cited, it lacked any facts or science to support the claims and completely ignored some very important details... I was hoping that was apparent that it was not so much about your comment but about the tone of the thread over all.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
27,933
Hey Big Stiffy?

Was The Water/Rain/Precip During the First 7 Months of the Year on the PAUNS Normal/Average?

I'M Asking Because I Don't Know?

Yes,Later in the Fall We Got Quite a Bit of Precip!

But In Most Places it was Too Late In the Year!





If 175" bucks are "fantastic" bucks then have at it. So you say there are fantastic bucks killed, but yet due to the drought and no big bucks people have turned their tags in??? 🤔 Check the water report, Pauns Plateau is above average.
 

longshooter338

Active Member
Messages
834
the way the state statute reads , in utah Its a fence out rule not a fence in rule , so its in the best interest for a cattleman to let his cows go where they please and public land is where they will end up , between the cows and the horses where i hunt the elk numbers are way down over the past 10 years , but deer are all over the place
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
7,872
the way the state statute reads , in utah Its a fence out rule not a fence in rule , so its in the best interest for a cattleman to let his cows go where they please and public land is where they will end up , between the cows and the horses where i hunt the elk numbers are way down over the past 10 years , but deer are all over the place
No body likes a bragger 😂🤣
 

Nebsy

Member
Messages
97

I'm pro public grazing, buuuuuuutttttttt, we've all seen what happens. And the elk and deer pay for bad management
I find this article inflammatory. Not arguing that overgrazing doesn't occur.. there is always room for improvement. But, the picture appears to me to be taken along a road in an area where livestock would congregate. I highly doubt it is representative of the entire grazing allotment. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.
The author doesn't appear to have taken the time to get off the literal 'beaten path' to investigate the state of the allotment further from his vehicle then his camera lens would reach.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
I find this article inflammatory. Not arguing that overgrazing doesn't occur.. there is always room for improvement. But, the picture appears to me to be taken along a road in an area where livestock would congregate. I highly doubt it is representative of the entire grazing allotment. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong.
The author doesn't appear to have taken the time to get off the literal 'beaten path' to investigate the state of the allotment further from his vehicle then his camera lens would reach.


Sooooooo, it's cool to overgraze, or better yet not adjust to conditions on the ground, if there is that one spot, where cattle don't congregate and it isn't destroyed.

Or, cattle will naturally congregate where there is water, and better feed(same place wildlife need for survival), so perhaps not allow them to do so?
 

Nebsy

Member
Messages
97
Sooooooo, it's cool to overgraze, or better yet not adjust to conditions on the ground, if there is that one spot, where cattle don't congregate and it isn't destroyed.

Or, cattle will naturally congregate where there is water, and better feed(same place wildlife need for survival), so perhaps not allow them to do so?
Soooo.... congrats to the author on inflaming his audience. ;)
Read it again Hoss. Read it again.
I'll even attempt to be clearer: The author, in my opinion, is lazy in their reporting. Literally presenting a snapshot and using it as evidence of a persistent problem.
Might as well take a picture of somebodies anus, blow it up and call it their portrait. It's pathetic reporting, in my opinion. Precisely why we (as citizens of the state and nation) employ range biologists to conduct long term evaluation of grazing lands and implement best strategies. NOT make management decisions based on a politicians whim or a 'reporters' photo and ten minute diatribe hastily posted to an internet site.
To be transparent... I'm not defending public land grazing. Nor am I condoning it. As I grow older the more I lean towards seeing the resource utilized by wildlife and less by private/corporate livestock. On the other hand... livestock has a place on public lands.. without a doubt. Livestock is beneficial in replicating the vast herds of wildlife that once roamed this land but are no longer feasible considering the extent of human habitation.
 

longshooter338

Active Member
Messages
834
The biggest issues is the speed the federal government moves ....... that being said they hold the cattleman off till there range managers tell them they can move on , then it goes through 10 different desks , finally hits the right desk , cows go on the range , this usually is 6-8 weeks to late grass is allready starting to dininish due to drought , then the cattleman is allready pissed so when they turn out they put 1/3 to 1/4 more pairs than alloted , and dont even get me started on the absalute bullshit $ amount they pay for grazing its pennies then utah's livestock agents are nonexistant , so nobody but the cattleman really knows this number , then when there told to pull off the range they drag there feet for weeks , and in most cases up to a month , because its money out of there pockets if they do, now if you have section after section of public land, the wildlife after oct 30 get whats left over plain and simple, like it or hate it thats facts and i have never , nor will i ever agree with this practice.
 

bugleb

Active Member
Messages
288
it is not just public land that is overgrazed in this drought year. I was just noticing today how grazed down our private pastures are right now. I have sold off 30% of my herd already because of a lack of feed and water this year. Hay production was down 60% so I will have to buy some at exorbitant prices or sell more cows to make it through the winter.

Overgrazing hurts the rancher that did the overgrazing the most. If you hunt the Salt River Range in Wyoming's famous region G, there are many many places where past sheep grazing has eliminated the grass. The only thing growing now is weeds and and occasional single blade of grass. Now, instead of lush pastures, there is very little feed for livestock and the range won't pasture very many head as it should. Overgrazing hogs in the past have ruined it for the present and future for livestock and game animals.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
6,299
Soooo.... congrats to the author on inflaming his audience. ;)
Read it again Hoss. Read it again.
I'll even attempt to be clearer: The author, in my opinion, is lazy in their reporting. Literally presenting a snapshot and using it as evidence of a persistent problem.
Might as well take a picture of somebodies anus, blow it up and call it their portrait. It's pathetic reporting, in my opinion. Precisely why we (as citizens of the state and nation) employ range biologists to conduct long term evaluation of grazing lands and implement best strategies. NOT make management decisions based on a politicians whim or a 'reporters' photo and ten minute diatribe hastily posted to an internet site.
To be transparent... I'm not defending public land grazing. Nor am I condoning it. As I grow older the more I lean towards seeing the resource utilized by wildlife and less by private/corporate livestock. On the other hand... livestock has a place on public lands.. without a doubt. Livestock is beneficial in replicating the vast herds of wildlife that once roamed this land but are no longer feasible considering the extent of human habitation.


I'm pro public grazing.

I'm also old enough to remember range riders. Now, the cows are turned loose, then they wander down the MTN end of Sept, oct.

The old cows are in control, all summer.

Yeah. The author has a radical point of view. So? Because a bush hippie says something we automatically have to argue, despite what we all see with our own eyes, because he's a hippie.

The answer to there being shitty livestock producers, and shitty BLM management, isn't "there are good ranchers". It's WTH is wrong with those who aren't, and why is it tolerated?
 

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