Jay Gates-Mexico problems.............

[Bura Nut]

I was talking with Jay Gates and he sent me a letter regarding the trouble he ran into crossing from Mexico to the U.S. this year. Jay has been doing this hunt for over 10 years and he isnt a rookie. Listen up to the following for a blow by blow account of his troubles....... Thanks, Allen Taylor......

MEXICO HUNTING REPORT
Jay Gates
2004
"Let me start out or preface this informative report by saying this not my first rodeo hunting in Mexico this year. Believe me, I am no rookie, I have hunted and guided in Sonora, Chihuahua & Coahuila over the past 12 years harvesting many animals (Coues deer, Mule Deer, Carmen Mountain Whitetail). I loved hunting in Mexico until 2004.

My hunting buddy Jamie Jackson and I booked a Mule Deer hunt with a very reputable outfitter whom I have known and hunted with for years. If we had collected our Mule Deer early we would hunt Coues Deer. We had 12 days to hunt so we were not in any hurry to just harvest a buck and head home.

We both took good mule deer bucks (Jamie's was a monster) we packed up our gear and finally headed off to the airport to home sweet home. My home is in AZ and Jamie's is in Oregon.

The airport that you fly in and out of in Sonora, is Hermosillo. Most of the years I Hunt Sonora I fly in 2-3 times a year. I thought I knew the "ins and outs" of the proceedures in Mexico and this time was no different. When you leave the airport, you would check in your rifle (with a permit) with the military while your outfitter checks your tagged antlers and contract (i.e. type of license) with the Mexican Fish and Wildlife officers to see if the numbers on the antlers corresponsds to the numbers on the contract. All of this is being done while you are checking in at the airline desk. Then you catch your flight, fly into Sky Harbor International Airport in Phoenix where you go through customs.

All went smooth, the plane flight was fine and clearing customs was easy, Right? sometimes clearing customs is not so easy: Your deer's skull must be cleaned of all the meat and the deer's cape shoud be dried and or frozen. We then were instructed to go to the USFW line. What is this? I have never had to do this ever before but thought "oh well" and proceeded on. There were 6 hunter that were on the flight from Mexico back to the states, all with antlers. Three of the hunters were in front of us, then us then one guy behind us.

I do not know what happened to the hunter behind us but me Jamie and the three in front of us all got BUSTED and our antlers seized for the following reasons: 1. No name on our tags. "What? Never had to do this before" and 2. we did not have our contracts with us - either the Mexican Fish and Game or our outfitter kept our contracts. I asked the USFW officer if we could sign our tag's and my Mexican outfitter would be glad to fax them our contracts right to the airport. The officer then told us that would be "after the fact".

This was on a Friday, by Saturday I had contacted my attorney and by Sunday I had our original contracts in my hands. My attorney contacted the USFW on Monday and volunteered to fax the contracts to them. My attorney asked them what we were being cited for and the agent replied "A Lacey Act violation". For those that are not aware of what this is, I suggest you contact your attorney and have him research the Act- it is not pretty....In a nutshell it is a felony.......

My first attorney (after a little of that research I was referring to) told me to get another attorney that had more knowledge of the Lacey Act than he had. He passed on by fax our contracts to the USFW and forwarded the info to my new attorney.

My new attorney is a great guy to have on your side for the path that lay ahead of us. Approximately 24 day later our citations arrived and read:
Lacey Act: Did knowingly import a trophy Mule Deer in foreign commerce when the transport of said wildlife was in violation of the Laws of Mexico 16 U.S.C. & 3372(a)(2)(A)
We had 21 days to plead guilty or not-guilty. In the meantime my attorney and I were doing alot of research and making alot of contacts. Actually we were building a pretty solid defense.

My attorney lso kept in contact with the USFW trying to see what the charges actually consisted of and what happens to the violations if we plead guilty or not..........

If we chose to plead guilty we would get charged for "forfeiture of collateral" which is a technical violation that is between a civil violation and a criminal violation (??) pay a fine of FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500.00) and get our antlers and capes back. Our names would go into their Federal database and if we ever had another Lacey Act violation the violation could be a Felony.

If we chose to plead NOT guilty we would go in front of a Federal Magistrate, get mug shots, finger printed, would possibly have our firearms removed from our possession and we would not be permitted to hunt in Arizona and the other 25 reciprocal states. We would not be permitted to go out of our residing state while a trial was pending.

Through all of this, our attorneys fees would top out in the high 5 digit figures(oh...that's for each of us) and the process could take anywhere from a few months to a few years....WOW.......All of this for not signing our tags and not having our hunting contracts on our persons...

Now Jamie and I have always been ethical hunters and have always defended ourselves in business and life in general. What a dilema this had become. Do we "throw in the towel" and go against everything we have ever believed in? or do we travel through the judicial systems, complete it and in the end break our bank accounts? For what? To clear our names and fight tooth and nail with the government (an agency that is supposed to be helping us) on what we believe to be a technical violation of an unwritten, unpublished rule or regulation that's correct. Our research has shown that there's no "nuts and bolts" Mule Deer or Coues Deer hunting regulations. Only general statutes published by Mexican Fish and Game that do not deal with specific hunting regulations like we are all used to here in the U.S.

Rather than spending the monies to vindicate ourselves we decided to "throw in the towel" and "roll over". We pled guilty. Right or wrong that was the decision that Jamie and I made and never looked back. I could "bashs" our Mexican outfitter for not being more responsible and not knowing the laws of the U.S.F.W. but again, who does? I could "bash" the USFW for extortion and for harassment but that is not what this report is about.

Why can't we hunters go to Mexico on a deer hunt, get regulations, laws or proclamations from the USFW in a written statement as to what we are supposed to have and what we are supposed to do in order to be legal on both sides of the border? Do we have to go to a specific hunting organization? our representatives or Senators? Have these people put pressure on the USFW to get these "Regulations" in writing? Should this be something that should have been provided to hunters many years ago? Shouldnt there be a telephone number or address that we as hunters can contact and be given this info through the USFW?

As of this date there is only limited and general info in writing but an average hunter would have a heck of a time finding it (i.e. at the USFW in Nogalez: Import/Export trade bulletin). Yes the USFW told us we could call their "organization" and get their regulations "orally" but could not get them printed in regards to Mexico's laws. Your outfitter should take full responsibility of the hunter when hunting on the other side of the border. In all actuality I have never had any problems in Mexico. And to my knowledge I have never broken any laws. Matter of fact, I have letters from the Mexican outfitter and the Mexican Department of Fish/Wildlife (Profepa) stating that Jamie and I did not break any Mexican Laws even though that is what we were charged with.

My research has shown that between 10 and 40 hunters this season got citations exactly like this or similar to mine and Jamie's and I am sure that there were many more. I believe this could have been avoided if all of us Mexico huntes had the correct written regulations from the correct agency. For future hunting in Mexico, we should get together and resolve this issure so that it will not raise its ugly head again.

Jay Gates,


Chino Valley, Arizona

P.S. Yes, I fanally picked up our antlers and capes on 3-25-04. I also had a metting with the USFW officer when I picked up our stuff in regards to the correct way of filling out the contracts and tags. He was very cordial and very helpful, and assured me that this year there would be Written regulations to help the hunters to be legal on both sides of the border. He also stated he would meet with different organizations and discuss these regulations (I hope he sticks with these promises)

 

[bobcatbess]

YA

THAT WOULD BE ABOUT THE SAME LUCK I'D HAVE IF AND WHEN I EVER HAD THE MONEY TO GO ON A TROPHY MULE DEER HUNT!!!

THESE BORDER'S ARE A TOTAL JOKE,THEY WANT THEIR OWN RULES & REGS. & LAWS BUT DON'T WANT TO TELL ANYBODY WHAT THEY ARE!!!

I GUESS IT'S O.K. TO SMUGGLE ALL KINDS OF ILLEAGAL STUFF,BUT DON'T TRY AND BRING YOUR LEAGALLY TAKEN GAME ANIMALS BACK HUH???

I BETTER QUIT,I'M GETTING REAL AGGITATED JUST THINKING ABOUT IT!!!

SOUNDS LIKE THIS LACY ACT LAW IS GETTING PEOPLE IN ALOT OF TROUBLE THAT HAVEN'T REALY DONE MUCH WRONG???

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHEN THE HELL THIS COUNTRY IS GONNA WAKE THE HELL UP???

 

[dakotakid]

If you dont mind sharing Bura, where are you at in all of this, I know you had some difficulties at the border just like Jay did. Are you in a similar situation or did yours get cleared up?

Mike

 

[kilbuc]

Just a word of advice, never, ever trust a feseral game agent. They look at regulations in black and white and will interpret regulations in the most restrictive way possible.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

 

[AZBuckSnort]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-04 AT 05:52PM (MST)[p] This is going to be interesting to check back and see if Mr. Gates is thrashed for his admitted guilt in violating a law connected to the Lacey Act, a heretofore frequently labeled "serious wildlife crime", and if he will be tossed into the same shamed heap as all the other "poachers", as some here refer to several of the more well known trophy mule deer hunters, guides, videographers, & outfitters.
Mr. Gates has always been a respected member of the hunting community and has operated a very successful company that employs many here in Arizona. Now he's a "criminal". That is pathetic. It sounds, if the version published here are his words and accurate, that he is the victim of some lackadaisical record keeping by his party, his Mexican outfitter, the Mexican F&WS, and inconsistent enforcement by the USFW at the Mexican border.

Seems that Kirk Kelso posted some warnings about this very thing here at MM around the beginning of '04, warning everyone headed to Mexico to hunt to be careful of all their paperwork. Who needs the headache? Here's to drawing a decent hunt in the good old USA!

Bottomline, sorry to hear about Jay's troubles and let's hope he doesn't "step in anything" for the next 12 months, lest he fall deeper into the tangled web of the judicial system.

Good Luck to everyone hunting in and out of Ol' Mexico this Fall.

 

[YollaBolly]

AZ Bucksnort, Great response. One of the big issuse and one that wil only get larger is the FACT that more and more USFW employees are brain washed liberals and would love to stop hunting in general. Ofcourse, not all of them have their brains full of mush, but hell of alot of the rookies do.

Good point regarding the *serious wildlife crime". Can you imagine how much dinero in attorneys fees those guys (Navajo Operation)had to fork out?? To plead guilty for not having a companion permit!! What a joke.

Jay needs to get SCI involved in this to help alleviate some of the pain for future hunters.

 

[DeanX]

Interesting read. I'm planning a trip to Mexico, better make sure I dot my "I"s and cross all my "T"s. Thanks for the information.

 

[AlaskaJim]

The preceeding is just another reason why I choose to live and hunt exclusively in the good 'ol U.S.A. Where you are innocent until proven guilty.

Keep your American money in the U.S.

Good luck Jay, you'll need it. I hope you can continue to enjoy the sport you so dearly love.

 

[BrianID]

Sad story. To me it sounds like some animal rights activist working for the USFW wanted to make it hard for some hunters.

 

[Bura Nut]

Hopefully all of us take the time to send responses to USFW. I know about the "companion permit" issue on the Navajo and this issue is about as severe. There could be one permit like a passport that all agencies can stamp. There are alot of easier ways to conduct business and not impede or cause undue financial stress on USFW and hunters. Hopefully we can exert enough pressure to make it less problematic crossing back and forth hunting........... Allen Taylor......

 

[Bura Nut]

AlaskaJim: I understand what you are saying but what ticks me off in this whole thing is that in Jay's situation, he isnt having any problem with a foreign game department or government, its with our own United States Fish & Wildlife department which is a division of our Department of Interior. This department could use more pro-hunters and if we work with them we can come up with an easy to follow game plan when trying to cross the border then bring back a trophy or just antler sheds. I think a easy solution may be printed this year after USFW meets and finalizes their discussions with the Mexican government. I dont think our Federal Government realizes how much the Mexican economy rely's on outfitters & hunters from the U.S and other country's who spend millions (combined) each year in Mexico..... ................Allen Taylor......

 

[Couesnut]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-04 AT 08:06PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-04 AT 07:33?PM (MST)

Thanks Allen for typing Jay's letter, now I don't have too.
He's sent it to over 50 publications & Org. so this is just the start. When Jay speaks alot of people listen.
I've been laying low till all this settled down. I do have a lot of insite into this story, more then I want to type now.I do think both Jay & Jamie had to take it with out vasaline!
I also have a personal interest, as all who hunt or plan to hunt in Mexico should.
While in Mex. I have always felt secure & have trusted that my Mexican contacts had all the paper work in order & I was legal (gun permits, license, Tags, etc.) Now I'm not so sure. It's always been NO PROBLEMO" & I have'nt had any as of yet.
In the last 15 years I've been told many different things while crossing the border. Whether by the U.S. Customs, U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, Border Patrol, or the USFWS. The individual officer is'nt always clear on what is what" So he just makes a judgment call.
Right or wrong if your trophys are confiscated or a citation is written your SCREWED!!
Understand that all American Outfitters & Booking Agents are just "Middle Men" working with a Licensed Mexican Outfitter or a Registerd Land Owner. They have little if any legal standing in Mex. You may or may not have a contract with you're American, but it means nothing in Mex. We all pay for this added service. ......UHHH this typing sucks.....
I think few if any understand the laws & Regs. of the hunting buisness in Mex. They change all the time & don't translate easily.
I also believe few Americans know what the Law is on the U.S. side, as far as bringing back legally taken game in Mex. I thought I did, but now??????
THIS NEEDS TO START CHANGING NOW!
We as hunters must demand that our American Agents & Mexican Outfitters, have & understand the current Laws & Regs. of both countrys. We have to know that we are legal & safe or we're not heading South.
The USFWS needs to supply, in writing, the Laws on Importation/Exportation of wildlife from Mex.& see to it that all the agencies at the border know what they are.
You would think that with all the secuity issues we face in this country, the various agencies at the border could use the honest & ethical sportsman on their side. We are not the Criminals.
Mexico has some of the best hunting in the world. The most hospitable people & culture. I'm sure my love for it will continue. But it has always been a "Cluster Phauk" down there. You just have to go with the flow & accept it. Sometimes you just have to love the Comedy.
Over the years things have gotten worse & more exspensive. I have questioned if all the hassle is worth the high price.
If the U.S. & Mexico do'nt get their ##### together, their buisness is going to suffer a big loss.
No hunt is worth Jail or financial ruin.
Thanks, Dave Howell
To request Info. contact:
Doug McKenna.USFWS, 2450 W. Broadway Rd. Ste.#113. Mesa Az 85202
E-mail; [email protected]
Ph.# 408-967-7900 x 101

 

[huntsonora]

I would hate to be hunting with your "outfitters". The problem is not the laws of Mexico or the laws of the US, its that every weekend warrior that wants to make a few extra bucks goes down to Sonora and leases a ranch that "has never been hunted!" and has NO idea what the laws regarding exportation/importation are. There are also the guys that want to cut the outfitter out of the equation so they go down there and offer the landowners $500-$1000 more than the outfitters can and they get stopped at the border because they have no clue as to how to get out of the country. These are the guys that are driving up the prices for everybody else because the landowners talk and if one can get X amount of dollars for a deer then they all should right? The problem is not with the established outfitters that have incredible partners down there its with every Tom, ##### and Harry that dreams of hunting Sonora and either tries to do it theirselves or goes for the most inexpensive hunt. You have always had to sign a hunting permit, you have always had to have your hunt contract (for the same ranch the permit was for) among other things. I mean, it really sucks that these guys got drilled, we all know that the people that got busted this year are not criminals and I hope that everyone of these guys gets out of the situation unscathed but if you want to hunt Sonora you have nothing to fear if you go with the right people. It just really bothers me that there are all of these horror stories floating around because that has a direct effect on what I do. Either get educated and handle the paperwork yourself , go with a reputable outfitter or stay in the states.

Drummond

 

[huntsonora]

Oh, as for the middle man comment you are correct in most cases. I would stay away from those people and hunt with an American outfitter that will actually hunt with you.

Drum

 

[RLH]

brianid has the best explanation. usfw just as well be called any of the popular anti hunting organizations. they are oozing with anti hunters. might be the sorriest federal agency ever. and they will twist things to fit their agenda. their main purpose is to eliminate hunting and fishing. ever been around a usfw officer? pure slime. any liberal name fits em.

 

[cb]

It looks like Jay could have saved himself a butt-load of trouble if only he could have lost the illusions of becoming a "weekend warrior" and went with a reputable outfitter.

You know, with someone who seems to have all the regulations down pat, who thinks their is not a problem with the Mexico or US laws and not some rookie Mexican outfitter with only 15 yrs experience.

An American Outfitter that will actually hunt with him and show him where the big ones are.

 

[huntsonora]

Cal,

In reading the above post I am really confused as to what exactly you were trying to say. Please clarify.

I would like to clarify a few of my points as well. I dont think of Jay Gates a a weekend warrior, from what I have heard from people I know and trust, Jay is an incredible buck hunter that has been around the block more than a few times, I would be willing to bet that he has been down to Sonora for many more years than I have. I feel bad for Jay and the other hunters that this happened to. My problem is with the guys that try and bypass outfitters to save a few extra dollars or the guys that think that they can go down there and lease a ranch to make a few dollars off of and do not know the laws as to exportation/importation because when these guys get into trouble they tell everybody what a nightmare it is and that is a negative reflection on the people that do work their butts off to make sure all of the details are taken care of. Sonora is a great place to hunt and if you go with the right people you will not encounter these kinds of problems. I can understand why Dave is frustrated, his friend got clipped for not having the proper documentation and he is pissed. The fault should lie with the person that put these hunters on the plane. The hunters that pay good money to go down there are relying on the outfitters to take care of all of the minor details and to make sure that they will have no problems crossing the border. For this reason I feel that it is so important not to try and cut corners or save a few dollars, spend the money and do it right, go with somebody that will have all of the proper paperwork ready to go for you to make your transition a smooth one at the border. Whoever Jay was hunting with made some mistakes that never should have been made.

Drummond

 

[cb]

Drummond,

To clarify my post........ I was being a sarcastic smart-ass as I'm sure you guessed. Yeah, I'm a good friend of Jay's too and know far more about this than can be typed. I have hunted with Jay and respect him a great deal. Not only because of his hunting abilities but because of the integrity he brings to the sport that few others can match.

It's agreed by all that whoever Jay was hunting with made some major mistakes. Jay is not laying all the blame on everyone else either. His report simply says that things need to change, that written regulations be made readily available to everyone that wants to hunt MX by the USFW and Mexican Fish and Game. That these mistakes can be more easily avoided in the future.

I will guarantee you that because of Jay's action you will see some changes in the way the USFW does things. This will be a good thing for everyone...... including US outfitters.

If it happened to Jay it can happen to anyone. later, Cal

 

[kirkkelso]

I've been watching this for some time, and can't hold back any longer, so here goes!

You know it always amazes me as to why everyone always points to the other guy when a problem comes up. These people should be pointing at themselves. Did the Mexican Game Department break any rules or regulations in regards to these problems? No. Did USFWS break any rules or regulations in regard to these problems? No. And by the way, yes I have been very close to several USFWS agents, and I beg to differ with the statements made above about them! They have a job to do, as everyone else does. Just because they are the ones who write the tickets for our mistakes, doesn't make them the bad guys!

These problems, and any others that could happen in regard to import/export of wildlife can and would be avoided, if everyone who goes down there would take the time to get the facts for themselves. Now don't tell me that no one knows the real facts and don't tell me that no one will clarify them as I know for a fact this is not the case. I take the time every year to get the rules and regulations for that year. Our regulations rarely change, but Mexican rules and regulations are an ever changing proposition, and you can not rely on "What was legal last year"!Every single person wanting to hunt in Mexico or any other foriegn country should know the law. No different than someone residing in Arizona, and going to Utah to hunt, should know the law. It makes no difference what your friends tell you, or what you have heard, it's your responsibility to know.

Yes, the outfitter in Jays case was wrong, and I don't care how many years he's been in business, he's still wrong. Just as he was the year before when he lost all his heads and racks at the border that he was personally taking to the SCI convention. I too am a great admirer of Jays accomplishments in the hunting world. And I hope him the best in this case, but he of all people should know the rights and wrongs of import/export. Yes, it was probably just a lack of attention as he has hunted with this outfitter for some time and figured that he knew what needed to happen, but ultimately this has to come down to the person who's name is on that animal. It's critical to know for yourself that you are totally legal and all your paperwork is in order. This type of problem in your home state will subject you to a citation and a possible fine, but when you're coming in from a foriegn country, you're subjecting yourself to a Federal Felony.

I guess I've rambled on for long enough, but a word of advice. I don't care if you're hunting with the top Mexican Outfitters, the top American Outfitters, or God himself, KNOW THE LAW!!!

Kirk Kelso

 

[Couesnut]

Right now i have to respond to cb....
U one funy inbred sonsabeach, I'm still laafin'

 

[huntsonora]

Must be an inside joke....

 

[Couesnut]

Gentlemen,
The porpose of Jays report & these dicussions is accomplishing what is needed. To educate, change. & improve the way things are done involving a Mexico hunt. I was hoping it would stay the course, but I knew it would'nt.
Am I pissed over J & Js experience? Not really. Am I frusterated over everthing involved with Mex.? Absolutly!
I am getting Pissed-off over some of these comments.
I will applaud those that have taken the time & "attention" to fully understand the "FACTS & LAWS" of both countrys. They've done the reserch for "themselves" & know a lot more then the rest of us.
They've worked their "butts off" in travel, locating ranches, scouting, etc. Not to mention all the negotiatetions with their "Quality & Professional" contacts in Mex.
Thats why I lay down my Four to Eight Thousand $$$$$ on a deer hunt. Right Boys....
I understand that you have a Buisness to protect, But DO NOT patronize us & get off you're "Holier then Thou" attitude.
Be very careful what you want said,& where you want this to go.
As will not sugercoat it.
DH

 

[kirkkelso]

Dave,

I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that anyone is "patronizing" anyone, or where the "Holier than Thou" attitude has erupted, but your post suggests that "knowing the facts and laws" isn't the issue.

I know exactly where this issue should go, and that's what is legally required to get ones licenses, tags, gun permits and visas for legal entry into the country of Mexico. What is legally required for the Mexican Government to issue proper and legal tags and UMA's for each ranch, and what is required for each hunter to legally import his or her trophy back into the United States. It looks as though you are up to speed on this criteria, so why don't you post the proper and legal procedures, and then we will responsibly discuss them. And please do not sugercoat it, as I'm sure there are several people here who want to know the facts.

Although you are going to give us the proper procedures, and we are going to responsibly discuss it, so everyone may have an idea of what is required, I would still advise anyone going to not take yours or my word for it. They should still get this information, (that is easily obtainable), for themselves.

Kirk Kelso

 

[huntsonora]

Help me understand why some outfitters dont have issues like this and others have them on a regular basis? Could it be that the laws regarding exportation/importation are actually availabe but that it takes time and effort to fully understand the laws or could it be that the USF&G just wants to pick on a certain few?
I can only assume that you are refering to "weekend warrior" comment as patronizing and I just assumed that he had to be hunting with one of these guys that go down there to make a few bucks and have no idea what they are doing because the violations listed in Jays letter were what I would consider to be "rookie" mistakes. If that rubs you the wrong way I am sorry. Again, I am not faulting Jay or his friend but the person that they paid to handle these "minor" details that could result in felony violations regarding the Lacy Act. If I offended you by calling Jays outfitter a "weekend warrior" then I am sorry but I can guarantee you he has been called worse by his hunters that relied on him to do a job that they had paid for. There is no question that he left his hunters hanging out to dry at customs but I think that the hunters that go down there need to ask about things like this when they are deciding on an outfitter to hunt with in Mexico, the hunters themselves have to accept some of the responsibility due to the fact that they are crossing international boundaries with firearms and wildlife. There is no such thing as asking too many questions when a potential felony violation is on the line. I guarantee you that if I was oing over to hunt Marco Polo Sheep in some small obscure country I would damn sure know what the laws were regarding these details to avoid any conflict coming home. Why should it be any different for Sonora?
Dave, I dont think that anybody had a "holier than thou" attitude but you have got to understand our position and to do so you need to walk a mile in our shoes. These types of negative stories have a direct impact on what we do. I am fortunate that it probably does not effect me as much as others as I am a "small time" outfitter down there and do not rely on outfitting as my only source of income. In fact, anymore it is more of a hobby that makes me a few extra dollars a year but more importantly it allows me to hunt some of the biggest mule deer in the world for a couple weeks in January.
Jay Gates is not the only person that this has happened to and it will happen again to others but I do not feel that it is due to the difficulty of obtaining the proper laws and procedures to hunt foreign countries but the lack of effort in some cases in trying to do so. I you look at this objectivly, I think that more people should be happy that this type of thing has not happened sooner, having a hunt contract and a signature on your tag are basic things and there is a lot more to the exportation/importation process than just these minor details. If these things were not done then what else in the past has not been done? Just a question to think about.

Drummond Lindsey

 

[huntsonora]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-04 AT 03:46PM (MST)[p]Also, if you would like to call me rather than keep typinf back and forth please feel free to do so, my numbers are as follows:
(806)543-1890 Mobile, this is the best was to reach me
(806)745-5194 Home

Drummond

 

[Couesnut]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-04 AT 06:57PM (MST)[p]If you reread my first post you'll see I stated that I don't have, at this time, in WRITING what the USFWS require. They have not supplied that as of yet. That's one of the problems!
If you have them, maybe you can post it & help us all.
As you know, what we need to have, too abtain the proper paperwork in Mex. has'nt changed much. But the Docs. change all the time. Over the years we've gotten; Books with stamps,
Printed Lic., No Lic.,Contract is Lic.,Sticky Tags ,Signed or Not, etc...
I have not found these Regs. "Easily Abtainable" as you say, you just don't pick them up at Wal-Mart in Utah.
Are you telling me that every Client you have, goes over all the pages of Docs. & makes sure all the info., ###s, UMAs, dates, places, ect. all match, all the time. Some might but I bet most don't. We rely on our Mex. or Americans assurance.
As hunters we all do the same thing....We send our Pics, our gun #s, Passport, Good guy Letter, etc. & money.
Then we show up in Mex. & ASSUME all paperwork is in order & Legal, "No Problemo'.
You're right it is MY responsibility & that is what I'm doing now. Making sure we all have the Info. we need to be legal.
DH

 

[cb]

Kirk and Drummond,
You guys have tons of experience in Mexico and can "easily" get all the rules and regulations of the USFWS and Mexico Fish and Game. Please help everyone else out and tell us where you get this information...... in writing. Like a proclomation or even something someone would fax or email to you would be of great help. thanks, cb

 

[kirkkelso]

Dave,

You can rest assured that "ALL" our tags, UMA's, and contract numbers match. No doubt about it, and if you say that you doubt that most match, then you are sorely mistaken. I'm not too sure just what you meant by that, but I'll accept that I am just reading something in your post that you surely didn't mean to claim. I don't know who you have been hunting down there in the past with, but sounds like that is a common thing for you. If so, you should look very hard at your Mexico hunting, as Felony violations are nothing to sneeze at. I also wouldn't admit that these things haven't been required in the past, as they have. If they weren't done, then any animal you have brought into the country is in violation. Jay mentioned that names on tags were a new thing. I think the statement read "What" never had to do this before. Damn, don't think I would have put that in print, as it damn sure was the law last season also.

I don't remember posting anywhere that say's that all my clients go over their paperwork. They don't. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't. I take care of it for them, but they should not take my word, or anyone elses word. It's their ass if something is incorrect, and they should know the rules.

Yes, I agree that you might have a problem getting your answers at a Walmart in Utah. I hope that was a joke, as I'm sure you haven't checked there!!! You can easily get that handled with one phone call to the A.N.G.A.D.I. office in Hermosillo, or the office of SEMARNAP and PROFEPA. Your outfitter could get those numbers for you.

You wanting to do it right is a very wise thing, and you should be commended on your choice to require that. If you have a Mexican outfitter who you are comfortable with, you should demand that he get this info for you. It's really not that hard to do. I'm sure that in Jays case, Luis knew what the correct procedure was, it was just a lack of attention in making sure it was done. You can blame that on Jay or Luis, but in reality, it was both, and I feel that both are fully aware of that. Does that make them bad or criminals? Hell no, it was a mistake and thats all it was, but the law is the law and the penalty for breaking it doesn't take into account on whether it was intentional or not. I don't agree with that as most others don't, but that is life.

The whole crux of my involvement in this was to point out that you can't take someone elses "word" nor can you "assume" that everything is right. When the citation books come out, they don't right one to your Mexican or American outfitter, they right it to you. Cover your ass.

 

[kirkkelso]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-04 AT 09:05PM (MST)[p]For the record, and to help anyone who is interested, here is what was required to legally hunt and export your trophy from Mexico for 2003/2004. You can and should get these answers yourself, but this is the procedure.

1) In order to legally hunt on a ranch in Mexico, that ranch must first be registered with SEMARNAP to receive a UMA. This is in essence a Conservation permit given to the ranch by the government to allow hunting. This is obtained by taking a copy of the Deed to Semarnap and having it regestered.

2) Once this UMA is established, then the approval now must go to a SEMARNAP licensed Wildlife Biologist who must do a census of the population. This is required for Coues deer, Mule deer, Javelina, Sheep etc.

3) Once this has been done, then all must go back to SEMARNAP, and they will issue the tags based of this information. When those tags are issued, they will also issue a UMA approval form with the UMA number and the office number of who did it. This is very important as both of these numbers must be on the paperwork coming back to the United States.

4) In order to get your license (contract) and gun permit, you must fill out a personal order form with all the information required. This is name, address, etc. They also want a copy of your passport or certified birth certificate, as well as all the information regarding your rifle and ammunition. Once your outfitter has this, it must go to the military for the permit which is a permit for you to legally transport your firearms on the highways. This must be signed by the base commander of the military base that issued it as well as your outfitter. This has changed quite frequently during the past years, but this is what was required this past season.

To legally enter the US with your trophy you must have the following:

1) Your contract (license) that is filled out with your name, address, phone numbers, port of entry and departure, hunting dates and species that it is good for. It must also have the same info on the outfitter less the entry and departure ports. It must also have the UMA name and number, the number of the office that authorized it, the legal hunt dates, and the number of animals harvested. This will also have the information on your rifle that will correspond with your transportation permit. This MUST be signed by both you and your outfitter

2) The tag must be affixed to the trophy. On the tag, must be the number of tags issued on the ranch, the species with which it was issued for, the number of the office that authorized the tags, the date of that issue, the UMA number, the dates of the legal hunting season, the corresponding number from your contract (license), your name, and the Outfitters license number.

3) An (RTV) form, which must be obtained and paid for at any local bank. This form is your payment of your export fee required to export your trophy from Mexico. This cost $99.00 pesos per animal.

4) A copy of the PROFEPA Verification form, which is stamped by PROFEPA stating that your trophy was checked by them and is legal and eligible for legal exportation.

Upon your arrival into the US, you must declare your trophy and fill out and file a "Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish and Wildlife" form. Our clients fill these out in camp, but you can easily get this at the border or the airport upon your arrival. Once this is filled out, signed and stamped, you are legal.

Now, I know there are going to be a lot of guys asking "what the hell is this RTV and Profepa Verification form?" These are required for legal importation by USFWS. Most people in the past have not been checked by USFWS, they were checked by US Customs and the Agriculture Inspectors who weren't familiar with them, but I can assure you they are now!

Now this is what the law required for the 2003/2004 season. I would make no promises that this will be the same for 2004/2005. You must get those answers prior to going.

Now, as I have said several times before, don't take my word for it, get the info from your outfitter!!!!!

Kirk Kelso

 

[Couesnut]

Kirk,
My meaning was not weather the ## matched, but weather Most cliets" might personally check them out.
Thats some good Info. I would not expect average Joe client to know all that. Thanks ,
DH

 

[kirkkelso]

Dave,

You are exactly right in your assumption that most clients wouldn't know this. That is why it is so extremely important that your outfitter (Mexican or American) be able to show you this. I think that is what Drummond was trying to portray with the "Weekend Warrior" statement, in that Joe Client wouldn't know these things nor would a part-time outfitter who's running by the seat of his pants. The real scary thing to me, after being down there for several years is all the hunters who know a friend who owns a ranch and goes and hunts direct with the rancher. These ranchers don't have a clue as to what's required, and this is the year that those hunters will suffer. Don't get me wrong, as I have nothing against anyone going down there and hunting on their own. Our clientele does not consist of the do-it-yourself type of hunters, but I do have a concern that all this hype will eventually slow the desire of hunters wanting to hunt down there. Especially when all the problems arise this season from the guys who have not done their homework. That would be a shame as you and I know, it's a hell of a lot of fun, and everyone should experience it without any worries.

Kirk Kelso

 

[Bura Nut]

Despite the hot responses back and forth, I think everyone does agree that we as responsible hunters would like to see that nobody we know gets pinched going or coming from Mexico. I think that is the cruxt of this discussion. I hope to have USFW at our Arizona Deer Clinic here in AZ August 25th. Hopefully the new Mexican laws or paperwork will be finalized and USFW can provide insight into issues like we are discussing. The appropriate import/export permits, signed contracts etc......I would like to see a proclomation outlining all necessary documents so hunters are clear THEMSELVES on what is required. I would also bet that all the people trading jabs here would get along if we are/were in the same room. I think discussing stuff like this on the computer is more difficult than face to face. Thanks for all the discussion and lets try and get a written proceedure from USFW.............. Allen Taylor......

 

[B_F_E]

In my opinion, the ever broadening interpretations of the Lacy act has wielded USFWS agents the power to intimidate & badger foreign hunters, the premise that the average Joe has access to a complete, comprehensive guide to it application is also a stretch, I don't think the USFWS agents them self have a complete understanding of all its applications.
I'm sure there are agents that have a good grasp of the act, however there are others that use the ESA to further there own agenda, as was the case in my dealing with them, I personally was issued a citation & had my antlers confiscated, only later to have them returned & my charges dropped.
With unlimited legal representation, it just seems curious that they would drop everything, if the original charges had any merit.
Currently the intent of the act is;
"to combat the illegal exploitation of wildlife"
Other than bureaucratic procedure, non of the above accounts indicate that Jay harvested any game illegally.

 

[kirkkelso]

I don't think that anyone here has any reason to believe that Jay or anyone else harvested game illegally. That is not the crux of this thread. But you are right in your assessment that this is the result of a bureaucratic procedure. However, USFWS service procedures are no different than an State Game and Fish procedures in that they have them and they must be followed. If you are required to sign your tag in Arizona (which you are), and don't, you are subject to a citation and seizure of your trophy. The only difference is that you have not crossed state or international borders and are not subject to a Federal felony prosecution.

I am sure there are bad apples in the USFWS service as there are in any Federal or State services. We've all seen cases of this. How do you combat that? I don't have a clue, but that could happen driving down the street, or anywhere else for that matter.

It's not nessesary to fully understand the Lacey Act or the Endangered Species Act. In this case it is only nessesary to understand what is required to bring your Mexico deer home.

 

[Couesnut]

A few more more Pts. As per the USFWS (not written)
You're tag IS you're Lic. & You most have the ORIGINAL" Contract, not a copy.
But keep in mind the Mex. Regs will change, count on it
DH

 

[kirkkelso]

DH,

Good point. The only solid thing about Mexican Regulations is that they WILL change!!!!

KK

 

[Couesnut]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-04 AT 09:26PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-04 AT 09:19?PM (MST)

After talking to Jay, I had to go back & Reread all the past posts. It's kind of gotten off course, & I'm partially to blame.
We must remember the issue here is the LAWS of the U.S.A.
The USFWS needs to make available in writing, the Requierments for bringing Deer back from Mex.
The inconsistincys of the uninformed agents at the border are making criminals of us all.
This is not about Mexicos laws or Regs. I don't know of any hunter being busted in Mex.
Jay was cited in The U.S.A., By the USFWS for breaking Mexincan laws. He did know such thing, & has a letter from SEMERNET/PROFEPA ?? Saying just that.
So let me ask the question to Kirk, Drummond, or anyone else who might be "Close" to the USFWS.
Do you have anything Written from the USFWS, on what is needed. So we can all be informed.
I know Jay is on a Crusade" so none of his buddys go thru what he has.
DH

 

[kirkkelso]

DH,

You are exactly right. The uninformed agents on our side of the border are making crimanals out of us, but it isn't the USFWS agents it's the Border Patrol and Agriculture Department agents who are. I'll explain:

The laws for importation of trophys into the US are set by the USFWS in regard to laws associated with the country they are coming from. They will be different for every country where wildlife is being imported from. Russian trophys will be subject to different laws than Mexico, Canada, etc. If a country does not require a license or tag, such as Mexico does on exotic animals, then you don't have to have it.

Jay stated that he did not have his name on his tag and did not have his contract with him. Those are two requirements of both Mexican law and our law. It's not Mexico law that you have them when you arrive in the US, it's only required by them for you to legally hunt. If you choose to throw them in the trash on the plane or out the window at the border, they couldn't care less. They are however required by our agents as proof that you were legal. If you show up at the border without them, how would our agents know that you ever did have them? I would question any letter he would have from Profepa (who is the law division of Mexico game and fish)saying that that is not a requirement. Sure, his letter may state that he didn't break any Mexican law, as I'm sure Profepa checked them at the airport before he left. But having those antlers in Mexico with a tag with no name on it is a violation clear and simple. I know the Profepa agent who checked them at the Hermosillo airport. His name is German and he is a very large man who you might recognize if you've been there before. His job is to check everything to make sure it is right before it can leave. If German made a mistake, which he surely could have done, that doesn't change the fact that those things are required. Now don't jump off the wall and say I'm questioning anyone's integrity on that, which I am not. I can only go on my experience which is very extensive in this matter. We imported 87 deer, 17 javelina and 6 Desert Bighorns last season alone from Mexico. Anyone can make a mistake, and German may have done so, but you know and I know that the name was required on the tag, and if it wasn't there then our agents have to act accordingly. You and I also know that that contract has got to be in your possession upon your arrival in the United States. I think you are the one who even stated that it had to be the "Original " and not a copy, so you have to see my point.

Uninformed border agents have been allowing hunters to cross the border with trophys that were not being properly imported for years. USFWS has now cracked down on the uninformed Customs and Agriculture agents and this practice will stop. Have you contacted the USFWS agent at the border crossing in Nogales? That is where I get my information, as well as the Profepa office in Hermosillo. Do I have the information in writing? Yes, I do have it from the USFWS office when I recieved our companys Import/Export permits. It is very extensive, but I'll type out the area that would pertain to this.

Under Regulation #50 CFR 14, Rules and Regulations for Importation,Exportation and Transportation of Wildlfe:

Article 14.52 (c)

To obtain clearence, the importer (which can be the hunter), exporter, or the importer's or exporter's agent will make available to a Service Officer the following:

1) All shipping documents (including bill of lading, waybills and packing lists or invoices.

2) All permits, licenses or other documents required by the laws or regulations of the United States. (Export)

3) All permits or other documents required by the laws or regulations of any foreign country. (Import)

4) The wildlife being imported or exported; and

5) Any documents and permits required by the country of export or re-export for the wildlife.

Article 14:53
Refusal of clearence:

Refusal of clearence: Any officer may refuse clearence of imported or exported wildlife and any Customs officer acting under 14:54 (Officer on Duty) may refuse clearence of imported wildlife when there are responsible grounds to believe that:

1) A Federal law or regulation has been violated.

2) The correct identity and country of origin of the wildlife has not been established (In such cases, the burden is upon the owner, importer, exporter, consignor or consignee to establish such identity by scientific name to the species level or, if any subspecies is protected by the laws of this country or the origin to the subspecies level.

3) Any permit, license, or other documentation required for clearence of such wildlife is not available, is not currently valid, has been suspended or revoked, or is not authentic.

4) The importer or exporter has filed an incorrect or incomplete Declaration for Importation or Exportation form.

DAMN I HAVE WRITERS CRAMPS!!!!

Hope this helps.

 

[HogWild]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-04 AT 00:52AM (MST)[p]Man, here it is, I have an opportunity to go and hunt Mexico with my girlfriends family, and reading this post makes me think twice about it. It sounds like too much of a hassel to get all the permits and take any chances that I may have missed one. I wouldn't be going through an outfitter, just hunting with the family. Should I even bother? Your thoughts.

One other thing, this may make a little difference. We would be driving into Mexico, not flying. Would this make any differences getting the head back? I would be using their firearms, do I still need a firearm permitt? I would probably be leaving the meat with the family, and just bringing back the rack and maybe the hide.

If I decide to go through with this hunt, I would check into this myself and get the regulations. Just wanted to start here and see what people's thought about hunting in Mexico and how difficult it would be.

Should I go through an outfitter just for the licensing, applications and permitts needed to hunt Mexico and bring back my trophy (if successfull) without any problems?

Thanks, Mel

 

[huntsonora]

Mel,

Here is a solution to your problem, give Kirk and I the permits and we will go down and hunt the ranch for you this year. No need to thank us for this, we are just good guys that would be willing to take a chance like this for a fellow MM member. Actually, if you research it you will not have any problems.

Kirk,

Well said and thank you for typing all of that out, I was not going to even attempt it. Everything you typed is right on the money!

Drummond

 

[kirkkelso]

Mel,

Whether you drive, fly, walk or crawl back makes no difference. It will boil down to whether all the criteria has been accomplished in Mexico for you to be legal. Yes, an outfitter may be able to do this for you, but he would need a contract with your ranch friend in order to get the ranch registersd, do the census, etc. This itself will cost better than $1,000.00 dollars. I doubt any would do that just to help you out with the paperwork.

KK

 

[HogWild]

Thanks for your input guys.

Mel