Judging sheep

R

rutnbuck

Long Time Member
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I really really think this might be the year. Sitting crosslegged and all my fingers crossed. Used green ink on my app. What else? However knowing little about judging sheep. Only been on one sheep hunt. There was only one sheep on the mountain. Turns out it was the #1 Utah Cali Bighorn. Thom Jukes Ram. Other then the oh wow factor. I really haven't a clue as to what to look for. I have been watching sheep on a unit for the last 25 years or so and have only seen one oh wow sheep in all them years. And have watched plenty. So tell me what are some of your clues and what to look for in judging a ram. Just figure I am kind of dumb and can use all or any help. 20 points
Rutnbuck
 
I have a pretty good DVD on Judging Bighorn Rams.


If ya wanna borrow it Kelly, reach out to me.



I'm pulling for ya man, If it's 'that' unit, I sure as heck wanna be there.



Robb
 
So I'm not the greatest judge, but I will pass on some pointers that have been shared with me over the years. I'm going to assume you are talking about judging bighorns, since thinhorns don't live down here. And if you really want to know more, then you should access Robb's DVD.
If your standard for judging is the B&C scoring system, make sure you know what the average ram for the unit you are hunting is. Sheep can vary a great deal from one unit to another, depending on the breed stock. If you are trying to judge a desert ram and you know average sheep in the unit have 13.5 bases, that kind of gives you a benchmark. But that is a lot different from a Rocky unit where rams average 15.5-16 inch bases.

MASS is king, when it comes to sheep. Length is secondary. If you don't believe that then you should check out the giant that Jason Carter killed in Arizona this year. (17+" bases)
Judging mass is really hard unless you have time to seriously study an animal. Look at space between the ear and the horn base. Also space between the two bases. If you are fortunate enough to have other rams around, compare them. I once saw a ram in Nevada that didn't look that impressive until he stood next to another ram. Comparing the two made it obvious that his bases were enormous. A hunter eventually killed him and he made the book, with nearly 16" bases. That's huge for a desert ram.

Also look for horn drop. A tight curl that doesn't drop always looks more massive than a big loop. If a horn does not drop below the jaw, then the curl is probably tight and won't score as much as it looks.

I could go on and on, but that's enough from one Sheep hunter wannabe. You probably should just get the DVD...:) :)
 
Robb Thanks You will be the first to know if I draw. Going to be tough. 800 applicants jumping ship from AI. You would be more then welcome to come along. LBH good stuff thanks. Going for the Rocky. Rutnbuck
 
I drew a sheep tag two years ago and was in the same boat. It was a lot of fun learning what to look for. The main points I learned:

1) The fullness of the curl (5/8, 3/4 curl, etc) doesn't affect the score at all so what you want to look for is the LENGTH of the curl. Does the inside ring of the curl (where the ears are) look like a basketball or a grapefruit? I saw several rams with full curls but the inside circle was tiny. I ended up killing a 3/4 curl with a big circle.

2) Similar to judging bears by how big their ears look on their head, you can get a good idea of the mass by how close together the ram's horns look at the base. If they are far apart he most likely doesn't have much mass. The closer together the horns look the more mass he probably has.

3) One of the most important score factors is how well he carries the mass throughout the curl. My sheep didn't carry it through the horn very well, but he had pretty big bases. If you find a sheep with big bases, pay close attention to how much the horn tapers off in mass throughout the curl.

The best lesson I learned during the hunt is that getting too hung up on the score of the horns will distract you from the awesome experience of getting to hunt such a cool animal. I spent a good chunk of my hunt "chasing ghosts" by looking for a supposedly huge ram that someone had seen in the area two years before my hunt. I couldn't find that one after numerous days of tough hunting, so on my last day I "settled" for the sheep I took. I spent the next few days feeling sad or mopey about not getting the big guy, but over time I came to realize what a poor attitude that was, and I just started reflecting on the experience of getting to hunt sheep with my dad. The mount took a year to complete and by the time I picked it up, my attitude had changed so much that I was blown away by how big and beautiful my ram looked. I couldn't be happier. Best of luck.
 
Following up from my post, here is a pic of my finished mount. He looked unique from the other rams I saw on the hunt because his curl stayed out pretty wide instead of going in towards his face. His curl isn't full, but it goes high and drops low (basketball vs. grapefruit - I would consider him a basketball curl). Bases are large but he tapers off quite a bit.

Not a record book ram but I am so beyond thrilled with him.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dD4s0YCx7ncVYmDyEVrG-GjZOmnrrLUN/view?usp=sharing
 
Rutnbuck
Thanks guys all good stuff. Not looking for record book ram Just be able to compare 1 to the next.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-19 AT 10:02AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-19 AT 10:00?AM (MST)

Don't get to hung up on score. Look for a ram that has the look you like. If I ever draw a good tag, I like the look of a ram with a tight curl that comes around, with the tips flaring outwards. Only ram I shot (when I was pretty new to hunting) has good mass and drops well, but isn't even 3/4 curl - wish I could have a do over...
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-19 AT 11:57AM (MST)[p]rbuck,
If I could say one other thing it would be to look for age. (count anuli if you are close enough)
In my book, an old ram is a trophy, regardless of score. If a bighorn is tipped, he is probably young, and probably deserves more years on the mountain. Many Dall outfitters in the NWT won't let their hunters shoot a ram younger than 9-10 years old regardless of what they might score. You may not have the luxury of setting an age limit, but I would at least pay attention to that factor.
Good luck in the draw

Good Article on judging tips
https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/become-an-expert-at-field-judging-bighorn-sheep#gs.B40utEHV
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-19 AT 12:31PM (MST)[p]LBH is pretty much spot on, but there are exceptions.

I hunted with a good friend of mine for this ram, that he killed in Montana. Its not broomed at all and is 10.5 years old, over 40 on both horns, scored 179 gross green.

This is me with my buddies ram:

tomsram2.jpg


It was bedded next to another ram that was heavily broomed and at the time 13.5 years old. That ram was killed the next year at 14.5 and scored just a pinch over 180 net. I saw a picture of that ram when it was killed, doubtful it would have made another year. I was sort of surprised it made it the year we saw it. I don't recall the exact horn length, but I doubt it was over 35 inches.

My Dad drew a ram tag in Montana some years back and I looked at probably close to 100 rams over 3/4 curl. The best 5-6 were all book rams.

A few of the rams I got picture of, this one probably 175ish would be my guess:

IMG_0696.JPG


This was a pretty looking ram if you like ones that aren't broomed, but like LBH pointed out, very young and likely would never reach B&C size due to small bases. Pretty ram though:

IMG_0708.JPG


Same ram, looks long, but doubt he was over 35 inches:

IMG_0723.JPG


This ram here is the one my Dad liked the best, even though I found one other that probably scored a bit more. Dad liked the shape, the fact is wasn't broomed a whole lot, and had good mass all along the length. I guessed horn length at about 38.

IMG_0693.JPG


The long horn ended up being over 40, good mass throughout and net scored 183 and some change, 8.5 years old.

IMG_0763.JPG


IMG_0745.JPG
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-02-19 AT 02:08PM (MST)[p]Nice photos Buzz!

I'm wondering how sharing photos of rams from the good ole days in Montana is going to help much in Utah? It's similar to comparing Alaska vs shiras moose! There may be some nice rams in Utah but I have a feeling 180+ rams are relatively few and far between?

If the Utah Division of Wildlife has harvest reports for your particular unit you'll likely have a better feel for rams....and top end rams in the unit you are hunting. Some states actually have harvest reports with length and mass measurements from rams checked in after harvest. Many states may even have photos of ram horns/skulls. If you can get your hands on ram photos or actual horns from the unit you'll be hunting that will help a lot. Here in Colo there are sheep units scattered across the state. Every region of sheep tends to have a different horn confirmation.

Sometimes you can look at ram horns or mounted sheep heads from local taxidermists. I often bring a tape along to measure mass and length.

As mentioned above, mass makes up the largest chunk of sheep score. The only other measurement is horn length. A tighter curl usually means less horn length. Deep dropping horns with a softball+ gap hole in the center of the horn generally means much longer horn length.

It sounds like you have a feel for rams in your unit so have a jump on things when you do draw a tag. One thing I did on my son's recent sheep hunt was to get up close and personal with rams prior to the season when they were less spooky. I took a lot of close-up video footage and photos while scouting that I took home to compare rams. If you get close enough you can usually count rings on horns. By the time season opens it's possible to pretty much have the bigger rams named!

In regard to sheep videos....Duncan Gilcrest had several videos available many years ago. A couple of the videos were pretty good for field judging but unfortunately the majority of video are of giant Montana rams from years ago. I think you would be better off taking video of actual rams from your unit that you can compare at home on your big screen.

Good luck pulling a tag!
 
So let me say right off I'm no expert. Not even close.

I agree with LBH that you have to know what your unit is capable of producing. You will have a hard time finding a 180 ram in a unit that has never produced a ram over 160. Can he be there? Yes. Should you expect him to be there going in to a hunt in that unit? Not unless you have some inside info on an extraordinary ram.

I also agree you shouldnt get hung up on score. That's easier to say than do since we all compare that way. As for length vs mass... you can get to the same number several different ways. Not all those ways may satisfy what you want in a ram. Mass is crucial for score. But for some, length is important for looks. Sometimes looks is more important than score (some sheep are just ugly).

If you're in a unit that often produces book heads, be prepared to look over some rams before you shoot. If you're in a very tough unit with less of a track record, know what you are comfortable with before opening day. Only you can decide. That ram is going to be on your wall the rest of your life.

The biggest thing is to make the most out of it. Do your homework and set your sights at something achievable. But most of all enjoy that damn hunt! You dont get very many like it in a lifetime and the memories will mean more than the inches as time goes on.
 
For me character and cool factor rate high...brooming roman nose chunks out of horns.... age... There is a ram I saw a couple of times when I was elk hunting hung with a group of eight one horn was busted at 5 inches the other horn was full curl and broomed...busted nose square head...old face...I liked him the best...
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-19 AT 06:49AM (MST)[p]When I had my sheep tag 2 yrs ago, there was a group of 6 rams, I picked mine out as he was laying facing away just from the mass of his bases, there was one more ram with similar length laying broad side and the rest were just youngsters, find one you like the looks of and enjoy the hunt, good luck ? and hope you draw!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-19 AT 08:18AM (MST)[p]I agree with the posts above, once you set eyes on the ram you are truly interested in your heart will likely start pounding! I think a lot of guys tend to get caught up with score..which isn't always important!

Looking back at all of the hunts I've had over the years sheep hunts are the cream of the crop. If you truly want to take advantage of your tag you really owe it to yourself to spend as many quality hours in the sheep hills as possible prior to your hunt. The country where sheep live is literally breath-taking! You will be able to relax and watch sheep...and all the other critters that call that country home without the pressure of a weapon in your hand and tag in your pocket! It's also exciting just watching sheep. You will likely learn a lot about sheep habits and behavior.

I'm always amazed when hunters wait a lifetime to draw a tag and aren't willing to spend time research and scouting. Some of these hunters end up getting nervous about harvesting a ram and shoot the first legal ram they see. They are really missing out! Another benefit to scouting is you will likely have every ram you are interested in named and know exactly where he hangs out.

Doubledropmuley, love the mass on your ram! It also looks like he has a super nice, dark cape! I bet he looks impressive on your wall!
 
As to the judging aspect, its all the same concept no matter if its a sheep in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, or Utah.

The only thing you need to consider is the average mass and horn length on the rams you're hunting. If the area you draw has rams that only have 15 inch bases on average, consider that and use that as your baseline. But, from there, judging how well they carry that mass, how old they are, etc. is still the same. To get the best scoring ram in the area you're hunting, even if its NOT a B&C contender, you judge them the same way.

Also, the suggestion of trying to find those judging videos from Duncan Gilchrist isn't a bad idea. Again, the way you judge a ram is the same and his methods described in those videos is relevant no matter where you hunt.

I knew Duncan fairly well, a good friend of mine was his neighbor. When Duncan was writing his book on dall sheep, he wanted to use pictures of my ram, but I declined. He was always fun to chat with about sheep and goats.

I would also suggest, like others, that you spend significant time looking at the sheep in your area as much as possible. When I drew my desert tag in Arizona, I shot my ram within the first hour of legal hunting light. I did all my "hunting" the 2 weeks prior to the season opening and knew exactly what ram I wanted after looking over a vast majority of the rams in the unit.

I never scored that ram, but it was scored pretty close by the AZGF when I checked it at Kingman. It was 165 and change gross green IIRC.

A few pictures:

IMG_0945.JPG


My ram is the one on the right, 3-4 days before the season opened:

IMG_0948.JPG


My ram again:

IMG_0944.JPG


Opening morning:

IMG_0966.JPG


This one was a cool ram too, and one I would have been happy with:

IMG_0934.JPG
 
In my experience, don't make a hasty decision on a ram going away from you. Most mediocre rams look bigger going away. I call it "the death look". Especially if you feel like hes getting away. Always try to get as many angles on a ram as possible.

It's very hard to judge a ram without seeing him from the side and a straight head on view. From the back you can see how massive he is and how "full" his horns are in the back (mass). Look to see if a cross section of the horn would be triangular or rounded and bulging out in the back.

You also need to be able to see how much mass he has in the bottom. There will be a big difference between a ram with 6 inches of mass in his final quarter and a ram with 8 1/2. You probably just picked up 10 to 12 inches overall even if the bases start out about the same.

I usually dont get down to trying to calculate a score. I look at rams in a bracket. To me a XXX type sheep means plus or minus 2 or even 3 points. I'm not a guide so I dont need to be trying to split hairs and I'm not that good at it. Those guys that guide a lot of sheep hunts are usually VERY good at estimating score.

One other thing. If you have to really study a ram to get to a number, be careful! You will talk yourself into something you may not like later. The best guide I know has ice water in his veins. I recall watching some desert rams one time and I was trying very hard to split hairs and make one of them seem big. I turned and looked at my friend to ask what he thought. He had already moved on and was looking at new sheep. The ram didnt meet his criteria and he was no longer fixated on him. I was trying to make him grow.

My final advice is never, never, ever leave the tagholder alone or let him make a sneak alone. Anxiety, adrenaline, pressure to succeed often result in hasty decisions. Almost every instance I know about of shooting the wrong ram happened because there wasnt someone else there to keep the hunters feet on the ground.
 
Considering the sheep forum was dead. All the info, stories, and pic's. are great love em. You guys are awesome! Thanks for all the info. Now to try and apply it! And get that tag!
Rutnbuck
 
NVBighorn's suggestion for getting a look at a ram's horns from different angles and views is right on the money! The same thing holds true for field judging antelope, muledeer, mtn goat, and other game.

If you really have the sheep bug there are several books and videos available. Duncan's book "Quest for Giant Bighorns" is good as is Sheep Hunting in Alaska by Tony Russ. One of my favorite dall sheep videos is Black Shale White Sheep by Rick French. I'm sure there are others that are newer but those are some of the old school ones available.

Beware...the sheep bug is contagious!
 
I've always called em a band of sheep. Probably a regional term. A flock sounds to disneyish to me.


#livelikezac
 
> Good read DW. Just
>curious do you guys refer
>to a group of
>sheep as a flock or
>a heard?
>Rutnbuck

Flock sounds too much like domestics. Herd works if you are talking overall herd in an area. I like group, bunch or occasionally a shitload.
 
I'd never use the term "flock" unless it was for ducks, geese or "mountain maggots"(domestic sheep) .
If it's a group of rams, it's a "band" in my book.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-19 AT 00:15AM (MST)[p]I got super lucky last year and drew a OIL tag in NM for RMBHS. I studied sheep for months and found myself obsessing with score and had people I didn't even know telling me that I needed to kill a 180 or bigger ram or I would be wasting that tag. Long story short, don't get too caught up in the whole score thing and enjoy your hunt. When you see a ram you like and is a trophy to you, take the shot.
There isn't an actual category for width, but my ram is #4 all time widest ram in the P&Y record book. And to me that's pretty cool! He was super wide and had some awesome flare, which is an unusual characteristic for Rocky Mtn BHS. When I saw him, I decided he was a trophy to me. And being able to get it done with a bow, even sweeter.



http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2019/5075282ca91bfb7ff4d39b813ed28a02f9022.jpeg

http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2019/93471e8e47545b40740c1ac8b487d0edcd44f.jpeg

http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2019/930955d35dc89f3c84e1ab49e186f1288801d.jpeg
 
The characteristics I learned when I drew and started hunting sheep was how to tell the age of a ram without trying to count the growth rings.

A quick rule to determine an older age ram (Utah would be 9+) is to get a straight on view. If his outside horn looks boxy or squared he is probably an older ram. I know there are exceptions to that because some huge rams will flare out. But for the most part an older rams horns will start to form a square box shape as the horn grows to maturity.

Obviously age class is the first sign you are on to a well scoring animal.

As to mass, I've always been told to get a good close up of out big a gap there is between his ear and horn. The closer or smaller that opening is the heavier he will be.
 
>So I'm not the greatest judge,
>but I will pass on
>some pointers that have been
>shared with me over the
>years. I'm going to
>assume you are talking about
>judging bighorns, since thinhorns don't
>live down here. And
>if you really want to
>know more, then you should
>access Robb's DVD.
>If your standard for judging is
>the B&C scoring system, make
>sure you know what the
>average ram for the unit
>you are hunting is.
>Sheep can vary a great
>deal from one unit to
>another, depending on the breed
>stock. If you are trying
>to judge a desert ram
>and you know average sheep
>in the unit have 13.5
>bases, that kind of gives
>you a benchmark. But that
>is a lot different from
>a Rocky unit where rams
>average 15.5-16 inch bases.
>
>MASS is king, when it comes
>to sheep. Length is
>secondary. If you don't
>believe that then you should
>check out the giant that
>Jason Carter killed in Arizona
>this year. (17+" bases)
>Judging mass is really hard unless
>you have time to seriously
>study an animal. Look
>at space between the ear
>and the horn base.
>Also space between the two
>bases. If you are
>fortunate enough to have other
>rams around, compare them.
>I once saw a ram
>in Nevada that didn't look
>that impressive until he stood
>next to another ram.
>Comparing the two made it
>obvious that his bases were
>enormous. A hunter eventually
>killed him and he made
>the book, with nearly 16"
>bases. That's huge for a
>desert ram.
>
>Also look for horn drop.
>A tight curl that doesn't
>drop always looks more massive
>than a big loop.
>If a horn does not
>drop below the jaw, then
>the curl is probably tight
>and won't score as much
>as it looks.
>
>I could go on and on,
>but that's enough from one
>Sheep hunter wannabe. You
>probably should just get the
>DVD...:) :)


Read this again!
LBH is too modest being he's whacked all 4 NA wild sheep and all are excellent+ rams!

Zeke

#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-19 AT 07:57AM (MST)[p] great info from all the posters, thanks.

Suddenly and miraculously I am extremely interested in learning how to judge rams. Bow hunting them in Colorado this year...

KHunter

>>====Hostess Donettes Pro Staff=====>
 
Oh hell all this good info. This was so much fun. We have to do it again next year!! I am a slow learner and my memory is like the second shortest thing on my body. My little toe being the shortest. So we start over next year. Guess you can't draw a sheep tag if you draw a LE Deer. SJ elk ridge. Thanks for all the info you guys are awsome. Rutnbuck
 
Thanks Robb I was hoping you and I would be up on top the beartop this year. Will let him grow one more year. Rutnbuck
 
Well rutnbuck, at least you drew something!
When I was putting in for my desert sheep I always just applied for elk points because I didn't want to mess up my OIL tag prospects. It ends up that I was the absolute last person to draw a sheep tag out of my point pool. I probably would have drawn my elk a long time ago if I'd followed your plan!
SJ deer can be fun. Best of luck man
You'll have to post a Judging Deer thread! :)
 

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