Kaibab Archery Point Creep Big Time
- Thread starter MIG
- Start date
6 points has always been 100% draw success for NR's. Last year there was a big bump in the number of NR's applying for the hunt. Maybe the trend continued this year? I'm guessing you are NR with 7 points and you have no hits on your credit card? If yes, that is kinda surprising.
rockymtnhunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 198
Same for me; NR w/7 pts for archery tag and nothing but crickets...no matter, going to Kaibab this week and scout for big 'uns given reopening of hwy's tomorrow morn and a big portion of forest.
I too know of one, non-res with 7 points, that did not draw. On top of that, I have heard rumor of two residents with 6 points that did not draw as well. Having said that, I know many other residents with 6 that did draw. So either way, sure seems like some serious point creep going on...especially for NR!
BrianID
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,148
The switch a few years ago to 50% preference and 50% random for nonresident tags is just going to cause even more point creep than would have already taken place. I would gladly give up my points in all western states to go to a random draw like NM or Idaho.
OldBallCoach
Member
- Messages
- 9
Yeah exactly! Everyone tries to blame not drawing a tag on “point creep”. Well I haven’t drawn a controlled deer tag in Idaho since 1999 (except for an unlimited archery tag as 2nd choice). And the unit I apply for every year has averaged about 1 in 5 to 1 in 6 odds over those 21 years. Reasonably should have drawn about 3 times but nothing. That’s pretty bad “point creep”!
Fortunately I educated myself on how the points work in different states, started applying in a few and have drawn some pretty good tags. I do not want to see any states go to random draws!
Bonus points are good but you have to understand how the game is played. With bonus points you always have a "chance" to draw but it may be a very small chance. Each year you do not draw, you are rewarded with a BP and better chance of drawing the next year. Preference points suck especially for younger hunters or people just getting started in hunting. Preference points also deter hunter recruitment because they often have zero chance of drawing if they are behind in points. Random draws are too risky. I know some people who live in NM and they go long periods of not drawing anything and there is no hope of better odds after each unsuccessful draw cycle. People just need to face it. There is a very limited supply and a much bigger demand.
Most every year, the amount of points that would normally guarantee you tags gets higher and higher. You can call it anything you want - "known tags" or something to do with odds in Idaho and limited supply/bigger demand. But the fact is, it's point creep any way you want to spin it....short and sweet!
When the tag goes from basically a 100% draw odds with 6 points in the bonus pass as a NR last year, and this year people don’t draw with 7 points is all I’m saying . People that are not educated in the point/bonus draw system don’t know what true point creep is. Is all I’m saying is I’m surprised 7 points was not a forsure thing for this tag. Not trying to start an argument, but more or less give information to people that are chasing a tag.
BrianID
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,148
I'm surprised there are still many hunters out there that think points are good for them. I would ask all of you to open your minds and consider if a point system is really benefiting or hurting you. Point systems definitely benefit $$$ state game deptarments and many states have found ways to cash in on the point game. Fortunately many hunters in Idaho and NM have realized they don't want a point system and have been opposing point systems in each state for years.
The only way a point system can work well for hunters is when a tag takes less than 5 years to draw. The Kaibab was in this category for a while so a point system was keeping hunters satisfied that they could get a tag every few years. The only benefit I find in a point system is being able to predict and plan for when you will draw a particular tag.
More and more hunters are starting to realize point systems benefit the state game departments more than they benefit hunters. Point systems are like Socialism. They both sound like good ideas to keep things fair but you need to look at the long term consequences of each to realize they are bad ideas. In the next 10 to 20 years we are going to see a majority of the premium deer, elk, pronghorn, sheep, moose and goat tags being drawn by older and older hunters. Point systems are really unfair to those just getting started in hunting. Point systems encourage significantly more applicants every year than not having point systems. Guys that may not be interested in a tag that year still apply in point system states to get their points but in non point system states (Idaho and NM) they will not even apply. It is good for states departments to have more applicants $$$ but bad for those trying to draw tags. It is really simple math, more applicants results in worse draw odds.
With all that said, I still play the point game in Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana every year. If you want to increase your hunting opportunities there is no choice but to play the point game. I would still gladly give up all my points to go to a random draw in every or any state because I know in the long run, random draw will result in more tags for me than point draw.
The only way a point system can work well for hunters is when a tag takes less than 5 years to draw. The Kaibab was in this category for a while so a point system was keeping hunters satisfied that they could get a tag every few years. The only benefit I find in a point system is being able to predict and plan for when you will draw a particular tag.
More and more hunters are starting to realize point systems benefit the state game departments more than they benefit hunters. Point systems are like Socialism. They both sound like good ideas to keep things fair but you need to look at the long term consequences of each to realize they are bad ideas. In the next 10 to 20 years we are going to see a majority of the premium deer, elk, pronghorn, sheep, moose and goat tags being drawn by older and older hunters. Point systems are really unfair to those just getting started in hunting. Point systems encourage significantly more applicants every year than not having point systems. Guys that may not be interested in a tag that year still apply in point system states to get their points but in non point system states (Idaho and NM) they will not even apply. It is good for states departments to have more applicants $$$ but bad for those trying to draw tags. It is really simple math, more applicants results in worse draw odds.
With all that said, I still play the point game in Arizona, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana every year. If you want to increase your hunting opportunities there is no choice but to play the point game. I would still gladly give up all my points to go to a random draw in every or any state because I know in the long run, random draw will result in more tags for me than point draw.
Joe2Kool
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,743
That's the BP system working the way it is intended. Those with the highest points get rewarded for having the highest points, but those with low points still have a chance. Some have said it benefits the state? Yep. It sure does. I started applying in AZ about 5 years ago. AZG&F has about a thousand bucks from me and counting. If it was a strict PP system, not sure I would have started.
Bottom line, limited resources require limited access. And if you want to hunt a particular state, you gotta play their game.
I’ve got a system I wish all states would go to, but it wouldn’t create the revenue the states would like. It’s this simple, you can only apply for hunts. No buying points. If you don’t draw you get a preference point. If you do draw you lose your points no matter what, other than medical or other such circumstances. Simply put, you don’t put in unless you are willing to hunt that year.
SDBugler
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,111
I like point systems. Yes they cost money and time, but with point system you at least have a pretty good understanding ahead of time of what it might take to invest and how long it will take to draw a tag and then make the choice to start down that road or not. I have been in the points game in several states for around 15 - 25 years depending on the state. there are some tags I never started to chase because I knew I would never draw. Most other tags I when into the system with a rough idea of what it would take to draw (and considered demand and point creep in the equation). and yes I have changed plans over the years on several tags. Also, the bnefit of a points sytem is that you can somewhat plan for when you will draw a tag and plan your fall accordingly. If all states were "random" then you could go a year without a single tag, or your could also draw tags with conflicting season dates or draw more tags than you have to hunt.
There is also the argument that point systems are "unfair" to those just starting out. I have been applying for my three sons in several states/species so that they will have a good chance of drawing some premium tags sometime in their life.
there is also the argument that point systems are only good for the game agencies. Keep in mind if they have to make money somehow. if they didn't make it via "points fees" then they would make it some other way - higher license cost, higher application fees, etc.
I think the best system is exactly what we have right now throughout the west - a good mixture of states with points and states with random systems. I can "plan for" two or three tags and then still have the option of pulling a good tag in the states with random draws.
Our family has not drawn a single "random" tag this year even though we submit over 100 applications. However, we have three tags that were "planned" in states with points systems. We already have the next 2 - 3 years planned out with "planned" tags and hope to supplement with an occasional random tag.
There is also the argument that point systems are "unfair" to those just starting out. I have been applying for my three sons in several states/species so that they will have a good chance of drawing some premium tags sometime in their life.
there is also the argument that point systems are only good for the game agencies. Keep in mind if they have to make money somehow. if they didn't make it via "points fees" then they would make it some other way - higher license cost, higher application fees, etc.
I think the best system is exactly what we have right now throughout the west - a good mixture of states with points and states with random systems. I can "plan for" two or three tags and then still have the option of pulling a good tag in the states with random draws.
Our family has not drawn a single "random" tag this year even though we submit over 100 applications. However, we have three tags that were "planned" in states with points systems. We already have the next 2 - 3 years planned out with "planned" tags and hope to supplement with an occasional random tag.
They have cut the archery tags several times. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that the tag was OTC. From what I understand, there was quite a push to reduce tags because it was a bit crowded. They also have a rule that only 20% of the bucks harvested in this heard can be by archery. While I agree that it is far less crowded now, they also added a ton of doe tags for a while. The doe tags have since been cut back (some) but the end result is....less crowded, FAR fewer deer, still BIG bucks-but less of them and much longer (almost every year) to draw a tag. If you hunted there back in the 80's and 90's, you'll know what I mean.
Last edited:
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,291
Haha not if you are entering from the ground floor. Look for this system to be the next to "change". Just a word that means screw current point holders.
CactusPepper
Member
- Messages
- 56
You are onto something with the 50% preference and 50% random draw for nonresidents. It's hurting those with low points in the random draw. We picked up on this and keep our non-resident applicants separate from our resident groups.
In my opinion, those random draw states suck though because you may never draw the tag. My Dad applied for a goat tag in Montana for thirty years and never drew. That was prior to them going to a point system. It was a shame.
BrianID
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,148
That is another reason point systems are bad for hunters. The rules get changed when you already have significant time and $$$ invested in points.
That is the only real benefit point systems provide hunters in my opinion. It was nice to be able to plan a deer hunt in Colorado before the draw results with a couple friends because we knew we were very likely going to draw. I still would prefer completely random draw because I know that mathematically I would draw more tags over the next 30-40 years if there were no point systems.
BrianID
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,148
I like that AZ switched to 50% points/50% random for nonresidents. Too bad it isn't 100% random. I did pick up a good elk tag in AZ a few years ago in the random.
I've tried for moose, sheep and goat tags for close to 30 years without drawing as well. Idaho has some of the best odds of drawing a sheep tag as a nonresident or resident in the West. You may never get lucky in Idaho but the same is true in the states with point systems for sheep. Point systems won't guarantee anyone a tag. Just watch over the next 20 years on how many guys with 40+ sheep points who never draw and end up giving up on a sheep tag because they are physically no longer able to do the hunt. I would rather have a small chance at a sheep tag while I'm young enough to do the hunt. A reasonable chance of getting a sheep tag when they are 70+ years old after investing thousands of dollars in points won't do most hunters any good. 20 years from now, a majority of the sheep tags across the west may be going to old guys who's physical health held up better than other applicants in their point pool.
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,291
I was pretty stunned I wasn't hurt more by that last Arizona system morph. Was able to draw our target elk tag with just one year added on. And now with 25 points stats say I'll have ~50% chance for rifle pronghorn next year. So likely only added two years to that wait.
SDBugler
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,111
I still would prefer completely random draw because I know that mathematically I would draw more tags over the next 30-40 years if there were no point systems.
[/QUOTE]
All depends on what tags your are talking about. I doubt you can say you will mathematically draw more than one UT Pauns deer tag, or AZ unit 8, 9, 10, 27 elk tag, or CO unit 53 deer tag, etc. in 30-40 years. At least with a point system you will likely draw once.
I think what a lot of guys don't realize is that many of these tags essentially are once-in-a-lifetime tags, at least with a point system you can start out hoping for a high tier tag and then drop down a level if it is looking like it will never be reachable. Or you can switch to another unit if the one you originally started for had significant change in what you were originally looking for. Many of these tags are long term, or even lifetime, commitments in either system
[/QUOTE]
All depends on what tags your are talking about. I doubt you can say you will mathematically draw more than one UT Pauns deer tag, or AZ unit 8, 9, 10, 27 elk tag, or CO unit 53 deer tag, etc. in 30-40 years. At least with a point system you will likely draw once.
I think what a lot of guys don't realize is that many of these tags essentially are once-in-a-lifetime tags, at least with a point system you can start out hoping for a high tier tag and then drop down a level if it is looking like it will never be reachable. Or you can switch to another unit if the one you originally started for had significant change in what you were originally looking for. Many of these tags are long term, or even lifetime, commitments in either system
Fact is...it has gotten to the point at which (in some units) the max point pool only goes down because some applicants give up or die. Even with that, the next level of applicants is probably greater that the people that draw and drop out for any reason. I haven't done the math, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are already some hunts in which, if you started today applying as a child, you mathematically will never be guaranteed a tag. Yet many of us (like me) will still play the game in the hopes of drawing those random tags. I would like to see the random tag percentages increased to 50-50 or at least 75-25.
BrianID
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,148
I actually do think I have a better chance at the premium tags without a point system. I feel like I'm more likely to draw a New Mexico Gila elk tag in the next 10 years in random draw than pick up a quality elk tag in AZ. Unless I get lucky in the random 50% in AZ I'll just have 15 points elk point in AZ in 10 years. Unless the fees change significantly I will also spend twice as much $$ in application and license fees in AZ than NM in the next 10 years.
My argument is that point systems encourage more hunters to apply every year so they could get a point. There are many "half hearted" hunters that don't apply every year in random states like Idaho and NM. Those same type of "half hearted" hunters apply every year in AZ, Nevada, Utah and Colorado to get their points. It is really simple math, more applicants results in worse draw odds.
The other problem is when states change the rules after you have put in years and $$ building up points. A good example is Zim and his pronghorn points. Switching to 50/50 draw for nonresidents a few years ago was a real slap in the face to guys like Zim that built up AZ pronghorn points for over 20 years. The more educated hunters become about point systems, the more likely they will dislike them. Just like a college student will agree with liberal ideas like socialism until they start paying taxes and really understand how government works.
Last edited:
BrianID
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,148
Nonresidents already have a chance in random to draw 50% of the tags. More than 80% of the resident AZ tags are actually not in the bonus pass. I my opinion it is a better system than it was before they changed the rules about 5 years ago. That change was a bad deal to all the nonresidents that had been building points for years like Zim did.
BrianID
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,148
Death, health issues and loss of interest of max point holders is going to be a bigger factor over the next 10-20 years. I think that I'll have a reasonable chance at bighorn tags in several states in about 30 years if my physical health holds up better than others in my point pool.
AZgamefinders
Member
- Messages
- 26
A couple things to note about AZ. AZGFD had to change the rules a few years back because they were being threatened by a lawsuit from some NR's. Essentially they made the argument that G&F was telling NR's they had a chance to draw a tag but in fact they usually didn't unless they were in the max point pool. All the NR tags were filled in the 20% pass (up to 10% went to NR's). They believed G&F was misrepresenting themselves to NR's.
Also a lot of the guys who are getting too old physically to hunt but have lots of points are staying in the game because they are signing tags over to grand children or donating to vets. I know I would.
This discussion comes up every year after each draw. The best thing to do is learn each state's rules and methods and apply where it fits you most. I dropped out of Colorado & Nevada about 10 years back. Knowing that I am 3-6 years from retiring, I kinda wish I would have stuck with them. Good luck and Good hunting.
Also a lot of the guys who are getting too old physically to hunt but have lots of points are staying in the game because they are signing tags over to grand children or donating to vets. I know I would.
This discussion comes up every year after each draw. The best thing to do is learn each state's rules and methods and apply where it fits you most. I dropped out of Colorado & Nevada about 10 years back. Knowing that I am 3-6 years from retiring, I kinda wish I would have stuck with them. Good luck and Good hunting.
Curious to see how Folks truly feel about "point guard?" I do like it except for two things...and that is the fact that people get all of there points back PLUS an additional point as if they were unsuccessful in draw. If nothing else... I also think it would be more equitable if entire parties were tied to one person with a ton of points using the point guard. If any person in the party uses point guard, and that lowers the point average for that party, ...then the entire party should forfeit their tags. I believe it is these two parts in particular that are causing much of what we call "point creep." It's no secret that some Folks are using the system and selling their points for big bucks.
SDBugler
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,111
SDBugler
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,111
SDBugler
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,111
That is abusing the system, but I guess if it is legal, then nothing that can be done. I would agree that if one person in a group application returns a tag, then they all should be returned.
SlowElk
Active Member
- Messages
- 412
I've got an individual that I work with, who hunts the Kaibab (12AW) often. He has several groups that put in for points that he goes in with when they have "enough" points. So, he rides other people's points to hunt more often. I guess it's on the people he puts in with as to whether or not they choose to let him put in on their group. Never heard of people paying for that, or using point guard to let someone else use their points. This person I work with doesn't sound so bad in light of that!
There are some big name hunters that work out deals with guys who have max points. I have heard that they will pay as much as a guided hunt and get to share camp with the big name hunter. Seems like a win win IMO. Too bad I am poor and I don't have any where near max points for anything. I can't afford to buy anything and I don't have enough to sell.
I may be in the minority but I believe what a person does with their points is totally up to them. They bought and paid for them so who am I to tell someone how to use them.
I may be in the minority but I believe what a person does with their points is totally up to them. They bought and paid for them so who am I to tell someone how to use them.
justpassinthru
Member
- Messages
- 70
Along with point guard, too bad they didn't also offer point creep guard.
CatfishKev
Active Member
- Messages
- 162
As an AZ resident if they give me a loophole I'm gonna use it. You would have never even heard the name Rockefellar, Chase, Morgan, Clinton, and dare i even say it..... Trump, Bush and Reagan without tax proffenals who know how to find the loopholes and use them to their advantage.
Why wouldn't I? And I don't feel a damn bit guilty about it. Its no different then any tax credit the federal government gives you. Do you feel guilty when claiming dependants on taxes? How about that fancy dinner you wrote off because you own a buisiness?
And I'm not even a person of means. I'm self employed, married and we've had 5 kids together. I cant even afford to apply in multiple states like most of you guys, so if I can gain ANY edge whatsoever IM GONNA DO IT!
Why wouldn't I? And I don't feel a damn bit guilty about it. Its no different then any tax credit the federal government gives you. Do you feel guilty when claiming dependants on taxes? How about that fancy dinner you wrote off because you own a buisiness?
And I'm not even a person of means. I'm self employed, married and we've had 5 kids together. I cant even afford to apply in multiple states like most of you guys, so if I can gain ANY edge whatsoever IM GONNA DO IT!
Setcams4u
Member
- Messages
- 36
Good one. Lol. I'd purchase creep guard.
Outdoordan
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,142
What tag inarcher?
This made me laugh!!
Well sir....I see that you are a real A$$. And you know how I know this...it's because jealousy is a powerful emotion, so that makes you an A$$. LOL! Congrats!
AZGuy
Active Member
- Messages
- 808
It would work if they had a consequence for cheating the system. I know some real dirt bags that put in every non- hunter they know to transfer the tag their “minor” child. I’m for children having opportunities, just have a set youth quota on each hunt.
People have learned how to play the system and it’s watering it down bad.
SlowElk
Active Member
- Messages
- 412
Thank you all for teaching me the loopholes! Guess i could put my wife in for points, and, when she draws, give the tag to my grandson. Or really build her points, put in with her, and then she uses point guard to not get a tag, and keep building points. Then I go to the Kaibab nearly every year. Legal ways to cheat? Should have figured this all out years ago!
AZGuy
Active Member
- Messages
- 808
Sure can! It’s on AZGFDs radar, hopefully they will fix it!
AZ8
Active Member
- Messages
- 434
Doesn’t work that way. She can only use it once per species. Then if she draws the following year, the tag must be used and all her points will be surrendered. She can then start again with Point Guard, but all her points will be gone, sans loyalty/hunter ed(if applicable).
AZ8
Active Member
- Messages
- 434
My response was in regards to Point Guard. The “loophole“ you’re speaking of has been going on for years!
If AZGFD really wanted this fixed, it would have been addressed many moons ago. Because is still goes on today, decades later, leads me to believe they really don‘t GAF how the tag is used as long as it was attained legally and their ledger shows revenue in.
CatfishKev
Active Member
- Messages
- 162
Hasn't been decades though. Didn't point guard only start like 4 years ago? I agree though, they knew people would play the system and they aren't going to do anything about it. As long as they dont im gonna take advantage of it if i get a chance. Id be more for a mandatory 3 year wait after drawing a premium tag before eligibility to draw it again persoanlly. Weeve all seen guys draw primo tags twice in a row while max point suckers are blown to the wind.
AZNATIVE98
Active Member
- Messages
- 159
AZ used to have a 3 year wait in between elk tags and that was decades ago when there wasn't a quarter of the demand there is now. People were sitting out the 3 years and then getting back in the game and drawing tags again before people who hadn't drawn tags, so that was scrapped.
The reason why G&F does not like waiting periods is 1) reduces hunter recruitment. Have you ever tried to tell a millenial or Gen Z'er to wait for something before? They lose interest in just about everything after about 30 seconds. 2) statistically it has been proven, making people wait does almost nothing for improving the odds for other hunters.
Something that is overlooked and rarely discussed is the fact that so many more hunters are applying for the quality hunts thus making the wait even longer. You rarely hear the guys complain that are putting in for the early rifle deer hunts south of the Colorado river because they draw fairly frequently. AZ has more than 7 million people right now and is supposed to grow by 1 million more by 2030. It has grown over 2 million in the last 20 years already. Face it, AZ has a very limited supply and an extremely limited supply of quality hunts and demand that is growing at an exponential rate.
Stick with the bonus point system and at least give everyone a chance to draw a tag each year.
Congratulations to those that drew a hunt this year.
Something that is overlooked and rarely discussed is the fact that so many more hunters are applying for the quality hunts thus making the wait even longer. You rarely hear the guys complain that are putting in for the early rifle deer hunts south of the Colorado river because they draw fairly frequently. AZ has more than 7 million people right now and is supposed to grow by 1 million more by 2030. It has grown over 2 million in the last 20 years already. Face it, AZ has a very limited supply and an extremely limited supply of quality hunts and demand that is growing at an exponential rate.
Stick with the bonus point system and at least give everyone a chance to draw a tag each year.
Congratulations to those that drew a hunt this year.
AZNATIVE98
Active Member
- Messages
- 159
By the numbers:
- 52,681: The total number of hunt permit-tags issued.
- 187,732: The total number of those who applied for hunts or bonus points.
- 142,824: The total number of applications submitted.
AZ8
Active Member
- Messages
- 434
Yes, PG just started. I was just pointing out prior to PG how the system has been played. They weren’t too concerned about then and don’t seem too concerned about it now. It’s been going on loooooong before PG was even on the radar. Again, as long as the ledger shows revenue, it’ll never be addressed. i could care less what people do, really. I was just putting the info out there.
GOutes
Active Member
- Messages
- 236
"Boy the archery tag this year had some significant point creep. Surprised a NR isn’t a slam dunk with 7 points."
No surprise, Look at last years numbers
Applications vs Points
No surprise, Look at last years numbers
Applications vs Points
| Year | 12 | 11 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 2015 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 8 | 59 | 161 | 491 | 505 | 211 | |||
| 2016 | 1 | 2 | 13 | 22 | 81 | 245 | 470 | 494 | 218 | ||||
| 2017 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 9 | 30 | 25 | 46 | 41 | 71 | ||
| 2018 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 23 | 31 | 34 | 57 | 86 | 107 | ||||
| 2019 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 7 | 7 | 17 | 35 | 51 | 39 | 75 | 108 | 124 |
SlowElk
Active Member
- Messages
- 412
Hey GOUtes. Where did you get that chart? I am going to have 8 points as a resident for next year, what are the chances for early rifle in 12AW? Thanx!
CatfishKev
Active Member
- Messages
- 162
GOutes
Active Member
- Messages
- 236
Applications vs points (1st Season rifle)
| Year | 14 | 13 | 12 | 11 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 2019 | 3 | 3 | 9 | 36 | 49 | 112 | 160 | 296 | 473 | 849 | 1282 | 1109 | 519 |
Drawing Odds
| Year | TOTAL TAGS | BONUS TAGS | 14 | 13 | 12 | 11 | 10 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 2018 | 500 | 100 | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 40.2% | 20.3% | 18.5% | 15.2% | 12.1% | 9.3% | 6.4% | 3.3% | |
| 2019 | 450 | 90 | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 100.0% | 46.9% | 17.1% | 15.7% | 13.3% | 10.8% | 9.6% | 7.2% | 4.7% | 2.3% |
You hit the nail on the head "Revenue" is the key word here and nothing will ever be done that might reduce that. My real issue is the fact that it is clearly not an equal opportunity system as long as they allow points to be sold. There is a robust behind the scenes market for points and, if you have the funds, you can simply pay someone with a ton of points to go in with your party. After that, they use the point guard and you get to hunt. How many of you would pay an extra $100 - $500 - $1000 to someone that would bring your point average up? I would say that most of us would pay some amount...but at what point does it get cost prohibitive? After that, it simply becomes a rich persons option only. As for as point guard itself being used as it was intended...I'm all for it. It's the selling of points that i believe is inequitable. I also believe this contributes to the point creep that the OP referred to in the first post of this thread. Even if there are no selling of points, I believe that the entire party should have to forfeit their tags if a party member, that uses point guard, reduces the average points for that party. It's simply an unfair option/loophole that is not available to everyone.
AZNATIVE98
Active Member
- Messages
- 159
My group went into the draw with an 8 point average and we didn't draw in the bonus pass for 12AW early as residents this year.
You're talking about early rifle (not archery) correct?
I don't think the entire group should have to forfeit tag if one person in group does. Life happens and some things are just out of peoples control. I had a relative who got hired on police dept and the academy started on opening day of hunt. So he turned in his tag and got points back. Under your scenario everyone on the application would have had to surrender tag.
What about this: If the person who uses point guard has the most points of anyone on the application then they lose their points and can't turn them in and get points reinstated. This only allows them to use their points once. If they are not the highest point holder on the application then they can use point guard and get points back. This would reduce the number of times people can piggy back on someone else's points. Just a thought.
I have never been a fan of government or system that punishes people when no laws have been broken.
AZNATIVE98
Active Member
- Messages
- 159
Yes early rifle, we did draw the tags however in the 2nd pass and it was our 2nd choice. In the last 9 years we've had 3 Kaibab tags all were drawn as a 2nd choice. The first tag was a 12AW late hunt with 6pts, then we drew a 12AW early hunt with 2pts and now 12AW early with 8pts.
AZNATIVE98
Active Member
- Messages
- 159
I have never killed anything good with my bab tags, both rifle hunts I had I hunted the whole hunt and on the last day shot dink bucks. The archery tags I've had on the bab I also shot dink bucks. I'm hopeful this year I can put my tag on a good buck.
AZNATIVE98
Active Member
- Messages
- 159
Absolutely, a buddy of mine took me to the Kaibab the last year it was over the counter archery and we had a blast, plus I was able to harvest my first deer with a bow. I was born and raised in the desert of AZ and hunting the Kaibab is just incredible with the number of deer you see. I seen more bucks in 1 day on the bab then I had probably seen in 10 years in the desert. The next year it went to a draw and there were left over tags and the same buddy and I were able to get a leftover and again had a blast. Starting in 2007 my brother-in-law and I started putting in for rifle and it took us until 2011 to draw that first tag and now in 2020 this will be our 3rd tag and could possibly be our last. As much as we love the place unless you get lucky in the draw 6-8 years in between tags is just to long and since the left over whitetail tags are now near extinct I think we will probably be putting the Kaibab as a first choice and our favorite whitetail as a second choice.
AZGuy
Active Member
- Messages
- 808
Over the counter? Unless you are referring to 7,8,9 & 10s I’m confused?
There was a time 10 or 12 years ago that the kaibab deer units north of the Colorado river were over the counter tags. G&F said the archers were killing too many deer so that is the main reason it went to a draw. The draw allows them to somewhat control the number of deer killed by archers since they have a formula based on percentage of success the archers have. The higher the success rate = fewer tags issued. Like everything these days there was also some politics involved with going to draw for archers. Rifle hunters did not think it was fair archers could just go to walmart and buy a tag then go hunt one of the best mule deer locations in the country. Pretty sure BLM wasn't around back then or I'm sure they would have been claiming they were being discriminated against and would want some reparations. Antifa is a bunch of puzzies and they would never go in the woods because there is no wi-fi.
AZNATIVE98
Active Member
- Messages
- 159
I could be wrong but I believe 2007 was the last year of the over the counter archery tags for the 12's and 13A, hard to believe 13A was over the counter and now people are waiting a decade or more to draw that tag. If my timeline is correct 2008 was the first year 12A went to a draw, there were a 1000 tags if I remember right and they had leftovers the first year. Since then they have slowly cut tag numbers and now it is taking about 4 resident BP's to get in the bonus pass.
I think it's now closer to 6 points?
So the more I stare at this, the more I AM surprised at the amount of point creep. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong but last year most everybody with 6 points drew....so that bunch should have been cleared out. If you figure some with 5, a few less with 4 and so on, drew as well....it sure looks to me like 7 points should have been a slam dunk this year? With 450 tags, even looking at the move up points holders, it sure looks like there must have been some high point holders jump in for 7 points NOT to be a guaranteed tag? Even looking at the 50% bonus pass etc....Am I looking at that right???? Did anyone on here with 6 points NOT draw?
Lots of people just sit on the sidelines and buy points until they are ready to actually get drawn so they are not factored into these numbers. Also, the chart above is only for residents and does not include the NR's. I will admit, it has jumped a lot last year and again this year.
GOutes
Active Member
- Messages
- 236
Actually the chart above is for Non-Residents. I double checked it.
Arizona Hunting Guides & Outfitters
SilverGrand Outfitters
Offering mule deer, elk, antelope, bighorn sheep, javelina, and turkey hunts in Nevada and Arizona.
Arizona Elk Outfitters
Offering the serious hunter a chance to hunt trophy animals in the great Southwest.
A3 Trophy Hunts
An Arizona Outfitter specializing in the harvest of World Class big game of all species.
Arizona Strip Guides
Highly experienced and highly dedicated team of hardworking professional Arizona Strip mule deer guides.
Shadow Valley Outfitters
AZ Strip and Kaibab mule deer, big bulls during the rut, spot-n-stalk pronghorn and coues deer hunts.