Keep scopes on muzzleloaders

[ridgetops]

I would rather hunt a 5 day hunt every 3-5 years than hunt one day every year.

 

[Hawkeye]

Elkassassin asked: Can you charge for something you don’t provide?

Elkster, in my profession, I cannot charge for services that I do not provide? I doubt you can either in the plumbing business. I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at with your question but I am guessing that you are criticizing the DWR for selling tags and not doing a better job managing mule deer.

I’m not here to defend the DWR or their management practices, but as I said before Utah has pumped tens of millions of dollars into conservation and habitat improvement and our deer herds are still in the tank. But to be fair, what western state has done any better over the last 20 years? Mule deer numbers are struggling all across the west. The reality is that there are numerous factors negatively affecting mule deer some of which are difficult, if not possible, to control (weather, disease, vehicular traffic, human population growth, urban sprawl, predators, etc.).

One of the problems we are facing is the sense entitlement that we have as hunters. We seem to think that if we put in for the draws and acquire enough points that were entitled to a certain size of animal. That is false. The only thing a tag guarantees is the opportunity to be in the field and pursue an animal. Sure, I’d love to have 1 million deer in Utah and see sportsmen taking 200” bucks across every general unit but that is a pipe dream. The reality is we have a dwindling resource and a growing population of hunters that want to use that resource. Therefore, we better find ways to move more sportsmen through the system without decimating our herds. That is why I am open to changes that limit technology and reduce harvest rates.

Hawkeye

 

[middlefork]

Thanks Lumpy for your response. I remember those "good old days".

I've said before if it is successful hunters creating the problem Find a way to strategically target them, Not sweeping up the unsuccessful and throwing them out with the bath water.

Others have already brought up the drawbacks to that idea.

I don't know what the answer is. But what is the name of this web site? I appreciate that everybody can enjoy pictures of them alive or dead. But the emphases is on killing the biggest and best.

I guess it would be fun to see a thread about how long has it been since you killed a buck with a tag in your pocket.

 

[elkassassin]

Well Hawkeye!

You're Talkin LE!

So Let Me Ask You This:

If You Were Trying To Move Points Holders Through The System Quicker?

Would You Start Shooting The Spikes in LE Units?

Would You Decimate The Cows in Them LE Units?

Would You Hunt/Push Your Breeding Stock around in December/January That Are Trying To Pack Their Calves Without Losing Them?

I Don't Know Of a DAMN Sole Building Points in an LE Unit To Kill a PISSCUTTER!

If You're Gonna Keep Pounding The Game Herds Like What's Been Happening For Years You'd Best Find a way To Improve Herd Numbers Rather Than Decimating Them More By The Year!

It's FUBAR!

F'D!

Up!

Beyond!

A!

Repair!

Elkassassin asked: Can you charge for something you don’t provide?

Elkster, in my profession, I cannot charge for services that I do not provide? I doubt you can either in the plumbing business. I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at with your question but I am guessing that you are criticizing the DWR for selling tags and not doing a better job managing mule deer.

I’m not here to defend the DWR or their management practices, but as I said before Utah has pumped tens of millions of dollars into conservation and habitat improvement and our deer herds are still in the tank. But to be fair, what western state has done any better over the last 20 years? Mule deer numbers are struggling all across the west. The reality is that there are numerous factors negatively affecting mule deer some of which are difficult, if not possible, to control (weather, disease, vehicular traffic, human population growth, urban sprawl, predators, etc.).

One of the problems we are facing is the sense entitlement that we have as hunters. We seem to think that if we put in for the draws and acquire enough points that were entitled to a certain size of animal. That is false. The only thing a tag guarantees is the opportunity to be in the field and pursue an animal. Sure, I’d love to have 1 million deer in Utah and see sportsmen taking 200” bucks across every general unit but that is a pipe dream. The reality is we have a dwindling resource and a growing population of hunters that want to use that resource. Therefore, we better find ways to move more sportsmen through the system without decimating our herds. That is why I am open to changes that limit technology and reduce harvest rates.

Hawkeye

 

[hogg_65]

So you want a hunter to Buy a tag and hunt one day. Money well spent, the hunter should buy a lot of chickens with the tag money instead trying to fill his tag in a day. At least he would have something to eat.
Better have that buck spotted on those nightly scouting trips.

Are we not just throwing ideas out? Trying to get more guys in the field with a tag is a goal we need to accomplish. Shorter season, weapon restrictions are ideas to get there. These ideas are not for the long term. I'd like to see you Gator hunt big bucks in Utah every year as well as everyone else.

 

[Hawkeye]

Elkster, my comments were not just limited to LE units. Anytime a tag takes 5 or 10 or more years to draw, most hunters start thinking they are entitled to a certain type of animal with that tag. This is true for a OIL tags, LE tags and even general units tags (see Pine Valley deer unit). That where we are headed with our general season deer units. How many elk points do you have, Elkster? When you finally draw the San Juan early rifle tag, will you be satisfied with a nice 330” 6x6?

And just for the record, I am not a straight “opportunity” hunter. I would prefer to see the DWR try to balance quality and quantity. I’m not supportive of hammering cow elk unless a unit is way over objective. When it comes to mule deer, however, the writing is on the wall. I don’t think we’ll ever see deer numbers approaching anything close to where they were the 60s, 70s or 80s. Therefore, I would support limiting technology and making other changes to lower the overall harvest rate in an effort to keep moving more sportsman through the system. My goal would be to increase opportunity but keep overall harvest numbers about the same. I know that idea is not popular for some but the current path we are on is not sustainable.

Hawkeye

 

[elkassassin]

We Need To Increase The Numbers Hawkeye!

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!

Taking Technology Away Just To Try & Lower The Success Rate to Sell More Tags Is NOT Fixing The Problem!

It Does ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing To Increase Herd Numbers!

You Get That Part?

Alot Of Us Has Seen The TECHNOLOGY & GADGETRY Run Rapid For Years While Herd Numbers Continued To Fall!

But Damn I Guess it Was Fun Until We Got To Where We Are Now With a F'D Up Suffering Deer Herd!

Elkster, my comments were not just limited to LE units. Anytime a tag takes 5 or 10 or more years to draw, most hunters start thinking they are entitled to a certain type of animal with that tag. This is true for a OIL tags, LE tags and even general units tags (see Pine Valley deer unit). How many elk points do you have, Elkster? When you finally draw the San Juan early rifle tag, will you be satisfied with a nice 330” 6x6?

And just for the record, I am not a straight “opportunity” hunter. I would prefer to see the DWR try to balance quality and quantity. I’m not supportive of hammering cow elk unless a unit is way over objective. When it comes to mule deer, however, the writing is on the wall. I don’t think we’ll ever see deer numbers approaching anything close to where they were the 60s, 70s or 80s. Therefore, I would support limiting technology and making other changes to lower the overall harvest rate in an effort to keep moving more sportsman through the system. My goal would be to increase opportunity but keep overall numbers about the same. I know that idea is not popular for some but they are the current path is not sustainable.

Hawkeye

 

[elkassassin]

There Are 50+ Reasons Why The Mule Deer Herd Is Suffering!

Gonna Take More than one or Two Remedies To Fix it!

If You Don't Believe That Then You Have Not a Clue!

 

[elkassassin]

One More Thing Hawkeye!

Remember When We Went To 30+ Units For Better Management?

How'd That Pan Out For Everybody?

 

[ridgetops]

One More Thing Hawkeye!

Remember When We Went To 30+ Units For Better Management?

How'd That Pan Out For Everybody?

Did you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.

 

[cannonball]

A dead buck is still just a dead buck. A dead doe is 4,6,8, more…? deer. Until the state quits killing does, I refuse to believe any other regulations set in place are truly for the animals best interest. I don’t care if the deer are eating a farmers hay field. Their cattle are eating the publics grass all summer long. It’s a fair trade. They need to learn to deal with it.

You're right and you're wrong. Who do you think will win a battle between farmers and sportsmen? When we have 15 buck or more per hundred doe the question becomes how to increase the does in our base herds which are way down. Why are they decreasing?
Two words - - - pressure or drought. Pressure comes from predators or recreationists. Are our deer being stresses with too long of a season from hunters. It seems the season extends from the middle of August to after the first of the year as hunters chase elk. Or is it that now the other predators have added elk thru the winter when deer are of short supply. They have another ready supply of meat. Bear are also in the mix as their numbers have expanded to see a presence in towns such as my small community that has never seen the likes, in my very long life here. We now have had a bear in the middle of town last year.
Drought - - you bet! But we've done a good job over the last few years of rejuvenating the winter range. When the experts keep doing their studies, there is so much "I don't know" that nothing gets done. Don't get me wrong we need studies, but when they sit in their office and do studies until the deer are gone. Personally I think the mule deer herd demise will be stress with all of the activity in the mountains. I am passed the hunting stage, but if you hunters don't complain and write to the DWR, Wildlife Board, and yes the Governor, again I say you deserve what you get.

 

[elkassassin]

Not Gonna Argue With You Ridge On Units I Know Nothing About!

But Alot Of Units Went The Other Way!

Did you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.

 

[ridgetops]

Not Gonna Argue With You Ridge On Units I Know Nothing About!

But Alot Of Units Went The Other Way!

I agree many are worse off and taking scopes off muzzys will not help at all. That's the whole point of this thread isn't it? But all I was getting at was option 2 wasn't a complete flop.

 

[Hawkeye]

We Need To Increase The Numbers Hawkeye!

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!

And how do you propose to increase our deer herd numbers over the next 20 years? No western state has been able to do that in the last 20 years. What is the secret Elkster? Do you have the silver bullet that no other fish snd game agency has been able to figure out? Please share and don’t waste our time with that “Hell Right” fantasy. Share an idea that is feasible and doable.

My point is I don’t think we can grow our deer herds over a long term basis. I hope I’m wrong but I predict we will continue to see a gradual decline in mule deer numbers. Sorry to rain on your parade.

Hawkeye

 

[hogg_65]

I don't believe every buck that breeds a doe, gets the doe pregnant. How does anybody know if the buck or doe is capable of reproduction? How many false pregnancy does are there during the rut? I don't think that enough does get pregnant every rutting season. We need more bucks to tend to all the does, for a few seasons in a row. Let's make that happen and see if there is any positive results

 

[D33RHNTR]

Did you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.

What units do you think has improved in the central region? Don’t even start with the oquirrh stansbury. They have tanked harder than just about every unit in the state since the management switch

 

[JakeH]

I don't believe every buck that breeds a doe, gets the doe pregnant. How does anybody know if the buck or doe is capable of reproduction? How many false pregnancy does are there during the rut? I don't think that enough does get pregnant every rutting season. We need more bucks to tend to all the does, for a few seasons in a row. Let's make that happen and see if there is any positive results

I will say it again, the dwr have been pregnant checking doe's for many years now the pregnancy rate is in the 90% range, it is very high. They are getting bred, but are they carrying to term??? Lots of factors that effect that.

 

[2lumpy]

…

 

[2lumpy]

Did you not see my other response to this subject to lumpy? Several central region sub units have improved from what they once were 15 years ago.

If that is true, it is purely accident and not an improvement in management, by design.

 

[2lumpy]

We Need To Increase The Numbers Hawkeye!

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!

Taking Technology Away Just To Try & Lower The Success Rate to Sell More Tags Is NOT Fixing The Problem!

It Does ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing To Increase Herd Numbers!

You Get That Part?

Alot Of Us Has Seen The TECHNOLOGY & GADGETRY Run Rapid For Years While Herd Numbers Continued To Fall!

But Damn I Guess it Was Fun Until We Got To Where We Are Now With a F'D Up Suffering Deer Herd!

The Utah sport hunting management philosophy was established in the 1950s during a different time and a different circumstance. Utah had a small State population of hunters combined with a very large population of mule deer, at or in excess of habitat carrying capacity. With genuine anxiety over creating another starvation condition that destroyed the mule deer herd on the Kiabab National Forest. As mule deer populations hit critical mass and exploded, 1080 poison was nearly illuminating all mule deer death by predation. Fawn survival was approaching 90 fawn per hundred does. Livestock operators were constantly pushing for reduction in mule deer populations, and farmers/ranchers considered sport hunting as a asset to mule deer reduction.
Essentially, in almost every condition, the exact opposite of the State, habitat and mule deer population condition is the polar opposite today. That is, 1080 has been gone for over 60 years, predators are now at critical mass while mule deer are far far under carrying capacity and habitat is most likely better right now than it has been since the 1930s when the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 was put in place, and habitat has improving almost annually.

Today I believe the question should be…. althought I’m very concerned that it’s not, which should the DWR be forcing their energy on, Growing more opportunities or Growing more deer. I don’t believe you can successed in either if you don’t focus on one priority or the other. We all know what the focus is today. It’s not on growing deer numbers

For me, I believe the primary focus has to be on the mule deer and the secondary focus has to be on the hunting, as opposed to the focus being on hunting with the secondary focus being on mule deer population control. I can’t see how you can put hunting ahead of mule deer and not eventually loose the secondary to the primary objective, especially under the conditions and our environment today.

Yet as much as conditions have been completely reversed since the 1990s, the DWR’s management focus had not changed. From my perspective Utah’s DWR is still attempting to manage as is if conditions where like they were in the 1950’s

Have you ever heard anyone with the Division today say, we don’t know what’s wrong, we don’t know how to fix it. Many hunters believe what they say. Many hunters believe and say we’ll get mule deer populations to increase again. Many think it’s a matter of time until there know longer be a huntable population. Does that sound like a focus on mule deer or a focus on hunting?

Until the management stops being managed as if the condition were the same as they were in the 1960-1980s mule deer will never rebound. It’s the philosophy that has to change before anything else can ever change.

It’s not going to until mule deer are no longer a huntable species, in the State of Utah.

 

[2lumpy]

I will say it again, the dwr have been pregnant checking doe's for many years now the pregnancy rate is in the 90% range, it is very high. They are getting bred, but are they carrying to term??? Lots of factors that effect that.

Last data I checked showed birth rates were respectable but survival rates were extremely low.

You can’t increase annual population numbers below a 60/100 fawn survival rate, varying slightly, depending on unit conditions.

Birth rates should run from 100-120 fawns per hundred does, survival rate should exceed 75/100, years ago, most did, now very few do.

 

[Bluehair]

I Don't Know Of a DAMN Sole Building Points in an LE Unit To Kill a PISSCUTTER!

Around here, we have people who haven’t set foot in the state building points. Everyone and their dog applies.

Its too cheap and too easy. It wasn’t this way when you had to drive 4 hours through a snowstorm uphill both ways to apply.

You know, back before muzzleloaders had scopes

 

[elkassassin]

And That Is Where you are Wrong Hawkeye!

And I Quote:

"""Share an idea that is feasible and doable."""

Gonna Take a Hell of alot more than 'an' Idea Which = 'One'!

I've Told You Several Times There are 50+ Reasons Why,But You Don't Wanna Accept The Facts!

Funny How The State Right Next To Us Managed Their Deer Herd Way Better Than We Did For alot of Years!

But The GREED Set in,In That State As Well & Their Deer Are Not Doing So Well Now Either!

I Will Agree With You On One Thing Hawkeye!

It Ain't Coming Back!

We Are Out-Numbered By Opportunists that Have NO CLUE & The DWR Keeps Handing Them More!

THE UTAH DEER HERD SUCKS!!!

And how do you propose to increase our deer herd numbers over the next 20 years? No western state has been able to do that in the last 20 years. What is the secret Elkster? Do you have the silver bullet that no other fish snd game agency has been able to figure out? Please share and don’t waste our time with that “Hell Right” fantasy. Share an idea that is feasible and doable.

My point is I don’t think we can grow our deer herds over a long term basis. I hope I’m wrong but I predict we will continue to see a gradual decline in mule deer numbers. Sorry to rain on your parade.

Hawkeye

 

[Gator]

Hogg 65
You are right I only draw Utah every 2 to 3 years NR. I'm sure glad I can hunt other states.
this year i'm sitting on a big Zero across the Board. Thanks my lucky stars that I still Got bird hunting I can do.

 

[JakeH]

Last data I checked showed birth rates were respectable but survival rates were extremely low.

You can’t increase annual population numbers below a 60/100 fawn survival rate, varying slightly, depending on unit conditions.

Birth rates should run from 100-120 fawns per hundred does, survival rate should exceed 75/100, years ago, most did, now very few do.

Yep, so what's killing them, lots of factors to consider in that regard, not one of them is because of a buck getting killed.

The drought has been the biggest factor for the last few years, doe's have been aborting fawns, if they ended up having them they didn't have enough milk to keep them alive, and when they did the fawns ended up dieing due to poor conditions in the fall/winter months, then add on top of that the predators, and road kill, and it's easy to see why survival rates have been so low. The end of last year, and this year has been much better in most of the northern and central regions we should see a bounce back in the next few years if things keep going like they have. I'm seeing lots of fawns this year because we had very healthy doe's going into the fall. Also any fawns from last year that made it into the fall months should have been healthy enough to make it through the winter.

Next year should be a good year of yearlings and I net the population is a little better next year in a lot of areas.

I haven't been in the southern Units, but just from what I've herd it has not faired as well with the drought and may still be struggling.

 

[2lumpy]

Yep, so what's killing them, lots of factors to consider in that regard, not one of them is because of a buck getting killed.

The drought has been the biggest factor for the last few years, doe's have been aborting fawns, if they ended up having them they didn't have enough milk to keep them alive, and when they did the fawns ended up dieing due to poor conditions in the fall/winter months, then add on top of that the predators, and road kill, and it's easy to see why survival rates have been so low. The end of last year, and this year has been much better in most of the northern and central regions we should see a bounce back in the next few years if things keep going like they have. I'm seeing lots of fawns this year because we had very healthy doe's going into the fall. Also any fawns from last year that made it into the fall months should have been healthy enough to make it through the winter.

Next year should be a good year of yearlings and I net the population is a little better next year in a lot of areas.

I haven't been in the southern Units, but just from what I've herd it has not faired as well with the drought and may still be struggling.

 

[Gator]

More and better feed for deer and elk is the same as feeding sheep or cattle better the feed the better the young animals have to be born with good heath.
Having more feed on farm land for them would go a long ways in the fall and winter. getting them ready for spring.
20 dollars bounty a Coyote sure wouldn't hurt either.
I know lions and bears take alot BUT they are game animals that have a season.

 

[D33RHNTR]

More and better feed for deer and elk is the same as feeding sheep or cattle better the feed the better the young animals have to be born with good heath.
Having more feed on farm land for them would go a long ways in the fall and winter. getting them ready for spring.
20 dollars bounty a Coyote sure wouldn't hurt either.
I know lions and bears take alot BUT they are game animals that have a season.

Well good thing coyotes have a $50 bounty right?

One of the biggest mistakes utah ever made (and there’s been a bunch over the years) is making lion and bear a trophy hunting opportunity

 

[hogg_65]

I will say it again, the dwr have been pregnant checking doe's for many years now the pregnancy rate is in the 90% range, it is very high. They are getting bred, but are they carrying to term??? Lots of factors that effect that.

I stay up to date with the study's the dwr have been doing. No matter what information they gather, it is still a formula. An average they plot in a calculator and say this is it. I believe in the work they are doing, but I don't believe the numbers they publish. When they collar or capture the animals it is only like 10 - 20 animals on a unit. Then use those animals to represent the entire herd on the unit. I agree that there are lots of factors out there against the deer population.

 

[Bigwiffy]

I went and shot my .270 last night. Shot 3 shots at 175 yards. It seemed far to me. It put all this BS in perspective. Being able to shoot a muzzy 300+ yards with a high magnification scope is far from a primitive weapon. To some 300 is a chipshot as well.

 

[Robiland]

It’s interesting to think that scopes on muzzleloaders seems to be a western states issue mostly. The rest (most of) the states in the United States allow scopes and even smokeless powder on the muzzleloader hunts. Most of these areas are short range hunts from blinds or stands.
But out west where longer shots are the norm with big open canyons - we have restrictions.
And so we sit in our controlled environments and argue ethics amongst ourselves so DWR departments can divide and conquer. Sell less tags and change season dates if harvest success is too high - it’s pretty simple but so darned complex.

This is comparing apples to oranges too.

Back east, many of those places also allow you to kill multiple deer per season. Some up to 5 deer. Some more. If we had an abundance of deer and elk in Utah and the west, to the point of multiple tags per person to curve the exponential growth of the deer, then I bet we would not even be in this conversation about scopes or cameras for that matter.

I hunt all 3 season, I have all 3 weapons and I am 100% in support of the ban on cameras (which I have quite a few) and scopes on muzzys. If they keep pushing it further, I will support it so that I can continue to hunt.

 

[D33RHNTR]

This is comparing apples to oranges too.

Back east, many of those places also allow you to kill multiple deer per season. Some up to 5 deer. Some more. If we had an abundance of deer and elk in Utah and the west, to the point of multiple tags per person to curve the exponential growth of the deer, then I bet we would not even be in this conversation about scopes or cameras for that matter.

I hunt all 3 season, I have all 3 weapons and I am 100% in support of the ban on cameras (which I have quite a few) and scopes on muzzys. If they keep pushing it further, I will support it so that I can continue to hunt.

Keep in mind with every regulation made, they are making it harder for you to continue to hunt. Tag numbers are not increasing with these changes. They are likely to decrease even with technology changes…. I wouldn’t be so willing to give up more when they have yet to prove any of their past ideas have worked and added more opportunities for utah hunters

 

[Robiland]

Keep in mind with every regulation made, they are making it harder for you to continue to hunt. Tag numbers are not increasing with these changes. They are likely to decrease even with technology changes…. I wouldn’t be so willing to give up more when they have yet to prove any of their past ideas have worked and added more opportunities for utah hunters

I get that. I get, also, there needs to be changes one way or the other or BOTH sides loose. When I 1st started hunting and there were unlimited deer tags, that was great. But times have changed. And we need to adjust too. If we dont make changes, it wont matter, since we wont have a tag to use anyways. We cant continue to have our cake, pie and ice cream all at the same time.

If we make changes, and it doesnt work, then so be it....At least we tried something. But we do nothing and then wake up one day and its over and we didnt try anything, then we cant say..."I wonder what would have happened if we would have tried "X"?"

Got to start with something.

 

[2lumpy]

Keep in mind every year that we loose more mule deer, the fewer mule deer there are to hunt. But………. I get it…….. it doesn’t make a bit of difference how many are left, you can still hunt mule deer, if you have a deer tag.

 

[D33RHNTR]

I get that. I get, also, there needs to be changes one way or the other or BOTH sides loose. When I 1st started hunting and there were unlimited deer tags, that was great. But times have changed. And we need to adjust too. If we dont make changes, it wont matter, since we wont have a tag to use anyways. We cant continue to have our cake, pie and ice cream all at the same time.

If we make changes, and it doesnt work, then so be it....At least we tried something. But we do nothing and then wake up one day and its over and we didnt try anything, then we cant say..."I wonder what would have happened if we would have tried "X"?"

Got to start with something.

We’ve started with plenty and lost A LOT along the way. We aren’t getting that back… maybe we should quit managing for trophies and start managing for animal health and see how that goes, it’s about all we haven’t tried up to this point

 

[Zeke]

My prayer is that we don't "overregulate" and over "opportunity" ourselves right out of anything resembling quality hunting.

No, I'm not talking about animal headgear quality. I'm talking about an shortened season, overcrowding issue that's coming with these "monetary" changes being proposed.

I'm not in the "limit scopes for less harvest success" equals more "opportunity for tags sales" camp!$!$!$!

I think anything that's done, in the name of building the herd, should be given 5 years minimum, and positive results proven, BEFORE we start adding tags sales!

Zeke

 

[buckhorn]

I get that. I get, also, there needs to be changes one way or the other or BOTH sides loose. When I 1st started hunting and there were unlimited deer tags, that was great. But times have changed. And we need to adjust too. If we dont make changes, it wont matter, since we wont have a tag to use anyways. We cant continue to have our cake, pie and ice cream all at the same time.

If we make changes, and it doesnt work, then so be it....At least we tried something. But we do nothing and then wake up one day and its over and we didnt try anything, then we cant say..."I wonder what would have happened if we would have tried "X"?"

Got to start with something.

I agree 100%

Sure there are probably 50 things that can be done to help but we have got to get it started.
And not just in Utah!
Can’t just sit around squawking and bawling saying it’s FUBAR.
That doesn’t help anything!

 

[2lumpy]

Hope you won’t take offense that I just blew Diet Coke out my nose…….

 

[middlefork]

Maybe we didn't lose those who wanted to hunt when tags were reduced from 250,000 to now 73,000? Who could see that coming?

If nothing had been done where would we be now? If nothing was done in the last 20 years would the herd be better or worse than now?

Hunters have made sacrifices and I truly believe a few make decisions to not kill when the have a tag because they are picky or don't really care unless something really floats their boat. I'm one. But saving every buck for 5 years is not going to help the herd in the long run.

If hunting is a limiting factor fine make the adjustments but I don't think I've seen anything indicating this.

 

[2lumpy]

Maybe we didn't lose those who wanted to hunt when tags were reduced from 250,000 to now 73,000? Who could see that coming?

If nothing had been done where would we be now? If nothing was done in the last 20 years would the herd be better or worse than now?

Hunters have made sacrifices and I truly believe a few make decisions to not kill when the have a tag because they are picky or don't really care unless something really floats their boat. I'm one. But saving every buck for 5 years is not going to help the herd in the long run.

If hunting is a limiting factor fine make the adjustments but I don't think I've seen anything indicating this.

If you’ll look carefully, Utah tag sales had already dropped from somewhere near 250,000 to about 190,000 between 1982 and 1993. No regulation caused those nearly 60,000 sportsmen to bow out before Governor Leavitt dropped the number to a max of 97,000 tags in 1993. Hunter dissatisfaction caused it, even though during that decade more buck mule deer were killed than any decade, before or since. Hunter crowding and hunting frustration with the age class of deer being killed drove tens of thousands from the field.

When your carrying fewer that 5 or 6 bucks out of every hundred does forward each fall, 95% (give or take) of the next years harvest are yearling bucks. If you think hunters want to hunt mature bucks today, you should have heard them howling about having to kill yearlings during the 1970 and 1980’s.

Times have changed and when 90% of your bucks are yearlings, and that what hunters anticipate that’s what hunters will kill. Currently that’s what they expect……. so that’s what they shoot. I’m not going belittle hunters who kill yearlings when that is what 90% of the legal population is made up of. Don’t blame the hunter, he just hunts and kills what the State provides him to hunt.

 

[middlefork]

I heard the whining and crying during the 70's and 80's.

What percentage of bucks killed during the 60's were 4 point or better? The 70's? The 80's? I don't think anybody bothered to worry about it.

My first tag was in the mid sixty's. Yes I heard of "monster bucks" and saw the big buck contests, but as a group my family never killed a "bragging buck". They never really worried about it.

People have been killing "what the state provided" since day one. Only the expectations have changed.

 

[2lumpy]

I heard the whining and crying during the 70's and 80's.

What percentage of bucks killed during the 60's were 4 point or better? The 70's? The 80's? I don't think anybody bothered to worry about it.

My first tag was in the mid sixty's. Yes I heard of "monster bucks" and saw the big buck contests, but as a group my family never killed a "bragging buck". They never really worried about it.

People have been killing "what the state provided" since day one. Only the expectations have changed.

Being a new comer to Utah in 1975, I wasn’t very informed until I got fired up in 1983 by the BLM and USFS Office Managers and their biologists here, when they blew up over their buck doe ratio count battles with the local DWR biologists. But, I did a lot of mule deer hunting, and spent a lot of time with people like State Representative Duane Washburn, future State Representative Tom Christensen’s son, the Cowley Family, and Petersen Family, and the Torgerson Family, the Oldroyd family, the Brienholt family, the Meaham family, the McKiff family, and countless other highly regarded hunting families in the area. To a family they had social hunting norms that were as powerful as laws, inside their hunting camps. I don’t know what ever camp/family of hunters in the State’s norms and mores where in the 1970 and 1980s but to a family, from Grandfather down to Grandson, you’d better not be killing anything but a four point if you ever wanted to get invited back to that campfire……… so that was where my empirical knowledge came from…….. yours may well have come from a different experience.

I certainly understand that yearling buck were here, in large, large numbers back in sixties and seventies and huge numbers in the early 80s So much so that with an average of only 4 buck per hundred does….. in the early 80s over 82,000 buck year were killed. Based on my logic that tells me over 70,000 of them were yearlings. So yearling bucks breeding nearly every doe was what the BLM and the USFS biologist were alarmed over, especially when there were only 4 per hundred does. At that first meeting those Feds told us, “if you guys don’t get fired up and get these State DWR people to fix this, you are going to loss the entire mule deer population in Central Utah.

I called the Fish and Game head Big Game biologist in Colorado, the head Big Game Biologist in Idaho, and Montana to see what they thought about the BLM, USFS, and the Utah DWR opinions. They all agreed with the Federal Bioligists. I then called the Drpartmant Chairmen at Montana State University in Missoula, he also agreed with the Feds. I called The Department chair at Utah State, he said the same thing. I took a big game Professor from Utah State University to lunch and told him about the conflict between our local DWR biologists and the Feds. His comment was……. most of those State Biologists went to class at Utah State and they didn’t learn that buck doe ratios anywhere that low is healthy for mule deer……. We never taught them that in our program. They learn that nonsense sometime after they left Utah State University..

Those experiences are where my opinions began to form from. Right or wrong……. We have what we have, for whatever caused it. Too late to turn back the clock now. The future will be what this current generation wants it to be. It’s not your or mine……it’s theirs to give into or fight for.

I tried my best to leave it better but I failed. It bothers me everyday, but my credibility isn’t worth a pinch of pig crap. It is what it is and I’ll live with it.

 

[JakeH]

If you’ll look carefully, Utah tag sales had already dropped from somewhere near 250,000 to about 190,000 between 1982 and 1993. No regulation caused those nearly 60,000 sportsmen to bow out before Governor Leavitt dropped the number to a max of 97,000 tags in 1993. Hunter dissatisfaction caused it, even though during that decade more buck mule deer were killed than any decade, before or since. Hunter crowding and hunting frustration with the age class of deer being killed drove tens of thousands from the field.

When your carrying fewer that 5 or 6 bucks out of every hundred does forward each fall, 95% (give or take) of the next years harvest are yearling bucks. If you think hunters want to hunt mature bucks today, you should have heard them howling about having to kill yearlings during the 1970 and 1980’s.

Times have changed and when 90% of your bucks are yearlings, and that what hunters anticipate that’s what hunters will kill. Currently that’s what they expect ……. so that’s what they shoot. I’m not going belittle hunters who kill yearlings when that is what 90% of the legal population is made up of. Don’t blame the hunter, he just hunts and kills what the State provides him to hunt.

So I got a question, you say we dropped from 250,000 tags down to 190,000 from '82 to '93

And then in '93 they capped it to 97,000.

I couldn't start hunting until '98 and I remember getting a tag every year, as well as my older brothers, dad, uncles, cousins.

So my question is, if they had cut 100,000 tags in '93 how the hell could I get a tag every year and everyone in my family get one every year for many years before and after that?

That just doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[2lumpy]

According to DWR Director who will remain nameless, the demand for Resident Deer tags in Utah has been compounding by approximately 10% per year. If it has actually only grown an average of 5% compounded annually there still over 200,000 Resident applying for a tag……and some with numerous points each, so because the number of tags stays stagnate or changed little from year to year, and the number of points per applicant goes up each year, less the applicants that draw, each year your chances of getting go go down. It took a while for the compounding affect to kick in and there used to units that not as many people applied for, so for a few years after 93, if you were usually applying for a low interest unit you could have draw very often. It took while before Units like Thousand Lake started to take 3 or 4 years to draw. By now some units take longer and nearly all units have begun to take longer than they used to. Especially is Residents accumulate points and fewer tags are sold.

Not sure if those are facts but that would be my simple minded explanation. I have a son that has hunted almost every year and stills has 5 or six General Season points too.

It’s a mess.

 

[Ballistic]

Keep in mind with every regulation made, they are making it harder for you to continue to hunt. Tag numbers are not increasing with these changes. They are likely to decrease even with technology changes…. I wouldn’t be so willing to give up more when they have yet to prove any of their past ideas have worked and added more opportunities for utah hunters

I like your post and mostly agree with the exception of tag numbers and it’s overall numbers. We know that deer tags went from 250,000 to 85,000 or around that number. And when that happenned it was coincidence that elk tags went on sale for 30,000 or so. And so when the numbers go down on deer they are increased somewhere else. Season dates could be changed/tweaked to lower success on rifle and archery but that’s not being considered. When I think of quality of deer I think about all the CWMU units that are allowed to hunt outside of the suggested timeframes. So it’s pretty much a guarantee that those hunts are November and December. And how many deer come of public and winter on CWMU units ?
But nothing is being done about that - just take it out on the average lower class hunter and not big money.
So we decreased about 1200 deer tags (good move actually) for 2022 but increased elk tags (unlimited sales to youth) to make up for it. On an any bull unit you can still purchase 2 control cow tags for every hunter- even though the numbers have plummeted on most of these units for 10 years.
I know this thread is about deer and not elk but it should be considered.
In any business - success comes from leadership and accountability. With the DWR I have to question their leadership and since they are government ran -they really don’t have any accountability. It would be amazing to see someone run for the director position with the DWR just to shake up things up instead of it being appointed by the governor.
The way we hunt will change and that’s a guarantee. Taking scopes off muzzleloaders isn’t what I agree with as there’s so many other areas that need improvements on that aren’t being talked about or addressed. The scope on muzzle loader issue is dividing us.

 

[JakeH]

According to DWR Director who will remain nameless, the demand for Resident Deer tags in Utah has been compounding by approximately 10% per year. If it has actually only grown an average of 5% compounded annually there still over 200,000 Resident applying for a tag……and some with numerous points each, so because the number of tags stays stagnate or changed little from year to year, and the number of points per applicant goes up each year, less the applicants that draw, each year your chances of getting go go down. It took a while for the compounding affect to kick in and there used to units that not as many people applied for, so for a few years after 93, if you were usually applying for a low interest unit you could have draw very often. It took while before Units like Thousand Lake started to take 3 or 4 years to draw. By now some units take longer and nearly all units have begun to take longer than they used to. Especially is Residents accumulate points and fewer tags are sold.

Not sure if those are facts but that would be my simple minded explanation. I have a son that has hunted almost every year and stills has 5 or six General Season points too.

It’s a mess.

Lumpy, but in '98 and well into the 2000's general tags were by region. I live in the NE region and we never had an issue getting a rifle tag every year until about 10 years ago maybe.

Your telling me that in '93 they took 100,000 tags out of the pot more then double the number they left in and it didn't immediately cause a massive back log of people wanting a tag?

I get why we are where we're at now, but those numbers from the 90's doesn't make sense.

 

[cannonball]

Until the management stops being managed as if the condition were the same as they were in the 1960-1980s mule deer will never rebound. It’s the philosophy that has to change before anything else can ever change.

It’s not going to until mule deer are no longer a huntable species, in the State of Utah.

Lumpy, How are they going to to do that when Utah is managed by Youngsters who get their marching orders by Youngsters who get their information out of a "Cracker-Jack-Box. Hate to say it, but we are run by a bunch of bureaucrats who are afraid to do anything, so you have what you have. Good by deer.

 

[hogg_65]

After those changes in the 90's. A Lot of people quit hunting in Utah. Resident and Non Resident. Gone were the days in some southern units that had huge camps that were mostly guys from out of state. Familys quit hunting together, especially if they were traveling from out of state. The older guys were disgusted with the dwr and the state. These same guys that stopped hunting back then, would always tell us that hunting is becoming a rich man's sport.

 

[twopointdn]

After those changes in the 90's. A Lot of people quit hunting in Utah. Resident and Non Resident. Gone were the days in some southern units that had huge camps that were mostly guys from out of state. Familys quit hunting together, especially if they were traveling from out of state. The older guys were disgusted with the dwr and the state. These same guys that stopped hunting back then, would always tell us that hunting is becoming a rich man's sport.

This is true, happened to my family back then. I hunt solo now for the most part. No more big family camps and getting out of school for the deer hunt. I hope to bring this tradition back into my family with my kids.

 

[elkantlers]

Scopes on Muzzleloaders are the problem. SMH

 

[Robiland]

Scopes on Muzzleloaders are the problem. SMH

View attachment 83437

And a 400 yard muzzle loader shot isnt?

 

[2lumpy]

Lumpy, How are they going to to do that when Utah is managed by Youngsters who get their marching orders by Youngsters who get their information out of a "Cracker-Jack-Box. Hate to say it, but we are run by a bunch of bureaucrats who are afraid to do anything, so you have what you have. Good by deer.

Don’t know and I am releaved to say I have generally stopped caring if or how they are going to do it. As I have said a lot over the last 9 or 10 years. I just hunt, fish, where I can, when I can, with whom ever I can. I can honestly say I haven’t been to a single public meeting or met with a single wildlife administrator for nearly a decade. And…… their phone not ringing is me not calling. I see a couple of local gents helping the kids with their pheasant project every once in a while. I got a black bear tagged and processed last year……. That’s been it for me, since my stint on the previous Five Year Mule Deer Plan committee.

Just try to be a defacto historian now and again.

 

[2lumpy]

Lumpy, but in '98 and well into the 2000's general tags were by region. I live in the NE region and we never had an issue getting a rifle tag every year until about 10 years ago maybe.

Your telling me that in '93 they took 100,000 tags out of the pot more then double the number they left in and it didn't immediately cause a massive back log of people wanting a tag?

I get why we are where we're at now, but those numbers from the 90's doesn't make sense.

In 93 when Gov. Leavitt set the State Ceiling on tags at a high of no more than 97,000. and set the State up into 5 regions, each region was given the same “ratio” of tags out of the 97,000 as that regional area ratio had sold over the counter, the previous year. So……. until Option 2 was put into effect about 10/11 years ago, hunters could buy a regional tag, over the counter for General Season hunt…..” until” that Region’s allotment of the 97,000 tag were sold. Then they were supposed to stop sales. (us tinfoil hat types worried that the DWR were fudging and selling more tags than the a lot Ali mtment of the 97,000…..but there was no way to prove it, so it was just another conspiracy theory that got added to the napkin meeting’s minutes. Beyond that Jake, I’m at a loss……..just water under the bridge, I guess.

This State report has a fair amount of data, some suspect, some not, if you want to review recorded history on these numbers etc.

Also I copied page out of it, if you don’t want to go through the entire volume.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/annual_reports/big_game/07_bg_report.pdf

 

[Zeke]

And a 400 yard muzzle loader shot isnt?

I agree with you but aren't we all getting a little "sensational".
Honestly, how many Utah mule deer were killed last year at or past 400 yards with a muzzleloader?
My guess is as good as yours and I'll say 3-6. Let's say that it's an outlandishly high number, like 20. All this for that? Weird how we all get so worked up about technology and damn few use it to kill deer.
We all throw out number like we actually know when, in fact, we have no idea.
True, we should limit the emerging technology that takes over for the shooter but I think we are knee-jerking a bit much on scoped muzzleloaders when it's been admitted it's not a management move.

Zeke

 

[Robiland]

I agree with you but aren't we all getting a little "sensational".
Honestly, how many Utah mule deer were killed last year at or past 400 yards with a muzzleloader?
My guess is as good as yours and I'll say 3-6. Let's say that it's an outlandishly high number, like 20. All this for that? Weird how we all get so worked up about technology and damn few use it to kill deer.
We all throw out number like we actually know when, in fact, we have no idea.
True, we should limit the emerging technology that takes over for the shooter but I think we are knee-jerking a bit much on scoped muzzleloaders when it's been admitted it's not a management move.

Zeke

Let them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.

 

[ridgetops]

Let them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.

I'll tell you what's pretty simple. Keeping things the same as they are now. Sure, there was a group of guys that wanted to play " mountain man" decades ago but once the inline muzzleloader took over the market, those days of dressing up mountain man style are long past. Nobody is stopping you from dressing up in your buckskins, coonskin hat and packing around that 10+ pound hawkin rifle but please don't push that style onto the other 90 percent of the inline hunters. Nothing is stopping you guys from hunting that way. Face the fact, Utah's muzzleloader season has evolved and that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that type of progression. Utah's muzzleloader season might be unique and not the same as it's surrounding states but that's not necessary a bad thing. Something to thing about.

 

[Robiland]

I'll tell you what's pretty simple. Keeping things the same as they are now. Sure, there was a group of guys that wanted to play " mountain man" decades ago but once the inline muzzleloader took over the market, those days of dressing up mountain man style are long past. Nobody is stopping you from dressing up in your buckskins, coonskin hat and packing around that 10+ pound hawkin rifle but please don't push that style onto the other 90 percent of the inline hunters. Nothing is stopping you guys from hunting that way. Face the fact, Utah's muzzleloader season has evolved and that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that type of progression. Utah's muzzleloader season might be unique and not the same as it's surrounding states but that's not necessary a bad thing. Something to thing about.

Why not out things back they were? Even more simple! ?‍

 

[D33RHNTR]

Let them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.

The problem is, the majority of muzzleloaders today aren’t anywhere even close to meeting the definition of a modern fire are. Even entirely scopeless, muzzleloaders todays are leaps and bound ahead of what a “primitive” muzzleloader
Is defined as. Pretty much anything made after 1898 isn’t primitivez same goes for bows.

Btw, utah doesn’t have a primitive hunt. They have a muzzleloader hunt. There is a very big difference

 

[elkantlers]

Let them use their long range muzzle loaders. I honestly don't care. Just do it during the ALW hunts. Then on the muzzleloader hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) open sight muzzleloader. Pretty simple.

Agreed, as long as modern compound bows are only allowed during ALW hunts.

Then on the archery hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) recurve or long bow. Pretty simple.

 

[Robiland]

Agreed, as long as modern compound bows are only allowed during ALW hunts.

Then on the archery hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) recurve or long bow. Pretty simple.

I agree. If that is what we need to do, then do it! I am all for it. Get back to hunting, not killing.

 

[Gator]

I have one of those 69.99 plastic stock ones, So it should be good.

 

[elkfromabove]

Agreed, as long as modern compound bows are only allowed during ALW hunts.

Then on the archery hunts, use (what was once called a primitive weapon) recurve or long bow. Pretty simple.

So, how much do the modern compound bows add to the archery hunt success rates to make you want to push them into the ALW hunts? Or is it just the compound technology that makes the difference, regardless of the success rates?

 

[elkantlers]

So, how much do the modern compound bows add to the archery hunt success rates to make you want to push them into the ALW hunts? Or is it just the compound technology that makes the difference, regardless of the success rates?

I would bet if the archery hunt consisted of recurve bows only that the already low sucess rate would nosedive considerably. Especially on mature deer.

I was just trying to prove a point that every weapon type is not what it once was.

 

[elkfromabove]

I would bet if the archery hunt consisted of recurve bows only that the already low sucess rate would nosedive considerably. Especially on mature deer.

I was just trying to prove a point that every weapon type is not what it once was.

While it's true that every weapon type is not what it once was, that doesn't mean the success rates are affected that much.

Since the invention of the compound bow in 1966, the average general season archery deer success rate has risen by 2%. And that increase could also be attributed to other things, such a blinds, treestands, more realistic camo, releases, better arrows, broadheads,, sights, rests, cover scents, attractant scents, etc. BUT, bottom line, the archer has to get closer than he/she does with a rifle or muzzy and to put them in with the ALW hunts will drive most of us/them away. I'm 81 years old and haven't been able to draw and hold a recurve at full draw for many years, let alone hold it long enough to make a clean, lethal, ethical shot.

Additionally, my compound does not remove the challenges of hiding the draw, having to kneel or stand to make the shot, not using a tree, rock, branch or log as a rest, clearing the brush behind, above, below, to the front or to the side so my bow, arrow, elbow, or arm doesn't hit it and reloading for a second shot. I'm often asked what the difference is and I tell them this: "If you have a rifle and I have a bow and we see two big bucks on the other side of a big meadow, your hunt is over, but mine just started".

To put compound bow hunting in the ALW hunts would be a biig mistake! IMO, of course!

 

[yoteduster]

If they changed the archery hunt to recurve or long bow only I would bet there'd be a whole heck of alot less archery hunters in the field...

 

[Zeke]

If they changed the archery hunt to recurve or long bow only I would bet there'd be a whole heck of alot less archery hunters in the field...

I'd bet not. The F&G would just up the tags and have it as a second option or leftover option and all the guys who didn't draw the other seasons would be all over it.
I better not speak too loudly since that's exactly the plan "reduce success, increase tags (opportunity).
It won't be the weapon type that will drive hunter away, it will be overcrowding! Wait and see.

Zeke

 

[Hawkeye]

I have enjoyed the muzzleloader scope/technology discussion. I have my own personal opinions but there have been some good points made on all sides.

Do you guys know the timetable for the committee to submit its recommendations for those those recommendations to work their way through the RACs and to the WB? That will make for some entertaining meetings.

Hawkeye