Kill the Trail Cam Bill

Rimrock said:
Isn't fair chase a method of preserving animals? I see an awful lot of overlap there...
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Maybe there is overlap to you, but not to those making decisions. Again, define “fair chase.” Or tell me where it is defined in Board rules or statute so the principle can guide decisions.

Fair chase is what you believe it to be. Laws are not.
 
Vanilla,

You may want to do a little reading on the topic. It won’t take much of your time. Fair chase isn’t just “what you believe it to be”. The term is intended to guide the creation of laws as well as to encourage ethical hunter behavior. Here’s how the Boone & Crockett club defines it:

The Hunt and Fair Chase​

"Fair Chase," as defined by the Boone & Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over such game animals.

Use of any of the following methods in the taking of game is considered Unfair Chase.
  • Spotting or herding game from the air, then landing, pursuing & shooting
  • Herding, pursuing or shooting game from motor boat or motor vehicle
  • Use of illegal electronic devices for attracting, locating, or observing game, or for guiding hunter to such game (check state & provincial laws)
  • Hunting game confined by fences or enclosures, or game transplanted solely for the purpose of commercial shooting
  • Taking game illegally or using illegal methods against regulations of the federal government or any state, province, territory or tribal lands
HUNTER ETHICS
Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of supporting the conservation of natural resources. Modern hunting involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population, known as sustainable use. The hunter engages in a one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a hierarchy of ethics related to hunting...”

As another example, here’s how Alaska describes it in their hunter education program:

“Fair chase rules make sure hunters have no unfair advantage over wild game by balancing the skills and equipment of the hunter with the abilities of the animal to escape. The rules of fair chase are defined by law, regional preferences, and personal choice.
  • Fair chase emphasizes self-restraint and skills development.
    • Fair chase is primarily defined by individuals and their level of hunting ability.
    • Expert hunters may use more restrictive and less effective techniques than novice hunters.
  • Fair chase rules include banning the use of vehicles, airplanes, and radios; electronic calling; or shooting in a fenced enclosure. Many states have made these rules into law.”
Rimrock
 
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Vanilla said:
Maybe there is overlap to you, but not to those making decisions. Again, define “fair chase.” Or tell me where it is defined in Board rules or statute so the principle can guide decisions.

Fair chase is what you believe it to be. Laws are not.
Click to expand...

UDWR refers to "Fair Chase" in their Hunter Education Handbook as a "Reason For Wildlife Laws." It's also referred to countless times by Wildlife Board Members on the record, has a specific chapter in the 2020 Black Bear Guidebook, and is heavily referenced in the Bowhunter Education Course that is required for certain permits.

There's no doubt the State has shown an interest in promoting "Fair Chase." It may not be a "statue" but it's certainly a "principle."

As to the definition, I think it's best left to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when referencing obscene material, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description... But I know it when I see it."

Final point, "Fair Chase" may be ambiguous, but you're smart enough to know that with the right attorney, so are laws. Many laws involve intent or in your words, "what you believe it to be."
 
You guys keep fighting for the banning of cameras on private property in the name of fair chase then. Let me know how it goes. Clearly I’m the one here that doesn’t know what I’m talking about or will happen.

Bessy, I’ll come visit you in jail if I’m out in the Basin! Does that count?
 
Vanilla said:
You guys keep fighting for the banning of cameras on private property in the name of fair chase then. Let me know how it goes. Clearly I’m the one here that doesn’t know what I’m talking about or will happen.

Bessy, I’ll come visit you in jail if I’m out in the Basin! Does that count?
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I'm not sure to whom you're referring but I've never once advocated for the banning of cameras on private property.

My point is merely that the State has shown an interest in promoting and protecting Fair Chase ideals, and that the line between principles and law isn't as defined as you wrote.

Principles beget law and law begets principles.
 
grizzly said:
I'm not sure to whom you're referring but I've never once advocated for the banning of cameras on private property.

My point is merely that the State has shown an interest in promoting and protecting Fair Chase ideals, and that the line between principles and law isn't as defined as you wrote.

Principles beget law and law begets principles.
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And my point is Utah isn’t banning cameras on private property, no matter what someone thinks is fair chase or not. So you can keep arguing against that, or not.

I’m pretty confident I’m going to be right.
 
Rimrock said:
Vanilla,

You may want to do a little reading on the topic. It won’t take much of your time. Fair chase isn’t just “what you believe it to be”. The term is intended to guide the creation of laws as well as to encourage ethical hunter behavior. Here’s how the Boone & Crockett club defines it:

The Hunt and Fair Chase​

"Fair Chase," as defined by the Boone & Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over such game animals.

Use of any of the following methods in the taking of game is considered Unfair Chase.
  • Spotting or herding game from the air, then landing, pursuing & shooting
  • Herding, pursuing or shooting game from motor boat or motor vehicle
  • Use of illegal electronic devices for attracting, locating, or observing game, or for guiding hunter to such game (check state & provincial laws)
  • Hunting game confined by fences or enclosures, or game transplanted solely for the purpose of commercial shooting
  • Taking game illegally or using illegal methods against regulations of the federal government or any state, province, territory or tribal lands
HUNTER ETHICS
Fundamental to all hunting is the concept of supporting the conservation of natural resources. Modern hunting involves the regulated harvest of individual animals in a manner that conserves, protects, and perpetuates the hunted population, known as sustainable use. The hunter engages in a one-to-one relationship with the quarry and his or her hunting should be guided by a hierarchy of ethics related to hunting...”

As another example, here’s how Alaska describes it in their hunter education program:

“Fair chase rules make sure hunters have no unfair advantage over wild game by balancing the skills and equipment of the hunter with the abilities of the animal to escape. The rules of fair chase are defined by law, regional preferences, and personal choice.
  • Fair chase emphasizes self-restraint and skills development.
    • Fair chase is primarily defined by individuals and their level of hunting ability.
    • Expert hunters may use more restrictive and less effective techniques than novice hunters.
  • Fair chase rules include banning the use of vehicles, airplanes, and radios; electronic calling; or shooting in a fenced enclosure. Many states have made these rules into law.”
Rimrock
Click to expand...
Both Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young consider trail cameras and baiting to be fair chase.
 
Rimrock said:
Vanilla,

You may want to do a little reading on the topic. It won’t take much of your time. Fair chase isn’t just “what you believe it to be”.



The rules of fair chase are defined by law, regional preferences, and personal choice.
  • Fair chase emphasizes self-restraint and skills development.
    • Fair chase is primarily defined by individuals and their level of hunting ability.
    • Expert hunters may use more restrictive and less effective techniques than novice hunters.
    Rimrock
Click to expand...


I get lectured on saying fair chase is not defined but simple what you believe it to be, and the second part is what is used to prove me wrong?

As my friend Bessy would say....JUDAS!!!

We going to start legislating what methods people can use by how many years they’ve hunted? Or how many kills they have?

Guys, please tell me some more about how clear “fair chase” is and how our laws incorporate it.

Come on Bessy...give us a JUDAS!
 
Vanilla said:
And my point is Utah isn’t banning cameras on private property, no matter what someone thinks is fair chase or not. So you can keep arguing against that, or not.

I’m pretty confident I’m going to be right.
Click to expand...
Your reading comprehension is slipping. I've not said cameras will be banned on private land any more than you have.
 
Vanilla,

You asked for a definition of fair chase. I provided a couple of clear examples to save you some time. No lecture. Just an invitation to read up on the topic... which is still a good idea.

Rimrock
 
Rimrock said:
Vanilla,

You asked for a definition of fair chase. I provided a couple of clear examples to save you some time. No lecture. Just an invitation to read up on the topic... which is still a good idea.

Rimrock
Click to expand...

I read what you posted, and it seems to suggest just what I said it did. So thank you for that. That’s why you get a JUDAS!

Grizz, you’re arguing just to argue now. Move along.
 
And I Quote:

Grizz, you’re arguing just to argue now. Move along.

grizzly wouldn't do that!:D


Vanilla said:
I read what you posted, and it seems to suggest just what I said it did. So thank you for that. That’s why you get a JUDAS!

Grizz, you’re arguing just to argue now. Move along.
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
Guys, please tell me some more about how clear “fair chase” is and how our laws incorporate it.
Click to expand...
I already gave you four examples of Fair Chase being incorporated into law. I also gave you an example of a definition that's good enough for the Supreme Court of the United States and could certainly apply here.

You've got yourself in the unenviable position of trying to thread a needle preaching against Fair Chase as statute while falsely accusing people of saying things they didn't say by trying to connect dots that aren't there. You're sounding like Tri. Good luck with that.
 
Whatever you say. I think if you back and review the entire context of this thread with an objective eye, you will reconsider that circular argument you just made.
 
notdonhunting said:
And that has to do with Fair Chase how?
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Because he wanted to start an argument over something silly even when the very definition provided for fair chase is exactly what I said it is...simply something someone believes for him/herself.

But he can keep going.

They will not ban cameras on private property. I guarantee that. Whether that meets someone's subjective definition of "fair chase" or not is entirely irrelevant. It simply isn't going to happen.

But, tell me I'm wrong or that I'm not understanding or anything else. We'll find out eventually if I am correct or not. If I miss it on this one, I'll own up to it. I'm doubtful those who have come at me on this will do the same.
 
Nevada Proposes Game Camera Regulations - Utah Sportsmen (Good on them they need it)
Arizona Proposes Game Camera Regulations - Utah Sportsmen (Good on them they need it)
Utah Proposes Game Camera Regulations - Utah Sportsmen (Whoa whoa whoa that's unethical) :rolleyes:
 
Vanilla said:
Has change.org ever successfully brought a change to anything? Even a single time? On any topic?

Instead of signing a worthless online petition, contact your legislators and talk to them about it. Click this link, type in your address and you’ll see who you need to reach out to.

District Map

le.utah.gov le.utah.gov

I have really mixed feelings on this bill, personally. I don’t love it, but see why some people think it’s necessary. However you feel, if you want to be involved, then get involved. But do it by talking to the right people.
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I did and received no response from them.
 

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