Let's Talk Spike Hunting

Vanilla

Long Time Member
Messages
3,155
In Bessy's defense, the chopper pic with me as the pilot was created years ago when someone posted that DLL herded elk by copter.....he was actually defending me in that post 😁
Oh I remember! It was great comedy. The allegations that spawned the pic never made a lick of sense.
 

Vanilla

Long Time Member
Messages
3,155
Gotta be 25k by now, they ranged from 17 to 21 when I worked up there years ago.

They do it differently these days. They sell “leases” to big money folks and companies that include many tags they can distribute to their own peeps.

I’m guessing there are still a small number of tags to be had if someone wants to buy just a deer tag, but not like it used to be.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
9,169
They do it differently these days. They sell “leases” to big money folks and companies that include many tags they can distribute to their own peeps.

I’m guessing there are still a small number of tags to be had if someone wants to buy just a deer tag, but not like it used to be.
Yes, that's exactly why my outfitter pulled out, we didn't want anything to do with those corporate deals and cameras for social media.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Hey Hossy!

I Could Care Less What They Cost!

Some People Are Gonna Pay More For A Better Product!

I'm Just Sayin:

With Proper Management Things Can Be Better!

Just Keep Hunting Every Year Hossy!

Keep Harvesting All Them Trophy Animals Every Year!

You're Happy With It!

And That's All That Matters!





Ask slam what a tag costs on DLL, then let's hear you ***** about $$$$ rolling in
 

Silentstalker

Long Time Member
Messages
3,018
I completely understand DLL can be "Micro Managed", but I'd like to hear a legitimate reason why we cannot better manage our habitat usage in our public LE units.

A great pilot program would be the Book Cliffs since it's the unit facing the most negative issues.
I would love to see the book cliffs get any help it can get.

I think the legitimate reason it wouldn’t work is the inability of the state to fund or manage such a project. If it could be pulled off how much would that cost annually?

Is that not theoretically what the conservation tag money is for? I know a lot of projects are done annually but the level you’re advocating for would be massive. I’m in support of that but it’s cost prohibitive.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
9,169
I would love to see the book cliffs get any help it can get.

I think the legitimate reason it wouldn’t work is the inability of the state to fund or manage such a project. If it could be pulled off how much would that cost annually?

Is that not theoretically what the conservation tag money is for? I know a lot of projects are done annually but the level you’re advocating for would be massive. I’m in support of that but it’s cost prohibitive.
This is EXACTLY where the RMEF needs to put Utah dollars, but they don't.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
Hey Hossy!

I Could Care Less What They Cost!

Some People Are Gonna Pay More For A Better Product!

I'm Just Sayin:

With Proper Management Things Can Be Better!

Just Keep Hunting Every Year Hossy!

Keep Harvesting All Them Trophy Animals Every Year!

You're Happy With It!

And That's All That Matters!


Have I missed something? Have you put down the gun and taken up golf?

Don't ask anyone to do what your not willing to do.

And yeah. If tags cost $25k, I'm sure things might improve, but because 99% of dudes can't put out that cash.

Pretty much the point.

Maybe we leave "trophy" hunting to the rich and famous, and the rest of us slugs shoot 280 6 points every year. I'm good with that. My shlong ain't huge, I don't need a bick sausage contest yearly. Elk screaming are good enough, whether they are 280 or 400, they rut just the same
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Maybe Leave It To Rich & Famous?

Like There's a F'N Choice?

Just Keep Hunting Your 280" PISSCUTTERS!





Have I missed something? Have you put down the gun and taken up golf?

Don't ask anyone to do what your not willing to do.

And yeah. If tags cost $25k, I'm sure things might improve, but because 99% of dudes can't put out that cash.

Pretty much the point.

Maybe we leave "trophy" hunting to the rich and famous, and the rest of us slugs shoot 280 6 points every year. I'm good with that. My shlong ain't huge, I don't need a bick sausage contest yearly. Elk screaming are good enough, whether they are 280 or 400, they rut just the same
 

yak4fish

Active Member
Messages
230
My biggest issue with spike hunts, and any general hunt, is that they do not do anything to help control point creep. We complain about point creep on LE hunts, because everyone wants a LE tag, yet we still expect to have GS opportunity hunts available every year. Well guess what? That is not a reasonable expectation in Utah. There are too many people and not enough habitat. I don’t care how many MDF/RMEF/SFW banquets are thrown, we can‘t have it both ways.

Simple solution in my mind is to put all deer and elk tags in the same lottery, including antlerless hunts. This would address point creep, big time, and probably give us a chance to improve overall hunt quality for everyone.
If I knew how to make a poll this would be a good one. What would you put in for if all the elk tags were in one drawing. Draw a tag burn your elk points Spike, cow, any bull, LE .
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
If I knew how to make a poll this would be a good one. What would you put in for if all the elk tags were in one drawing. Draw a tag burn your elk points Spike, cow, any bull, LE .


I'd be great with either or.

You can put in LE, or OTC. Not both.

The loudest amongst us, would NEVER sit home decades for the "trophies" they claim they want.

But it would shut dudes up
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
Bess.

Maybe it's time to let the fellas in on your secret?

Nearly 3 decades, and you ate a tag, on the best elk unit in Utah. Maybe, perhaps, just maybe, your expectations are off the charts?
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
Bess.

Maybe it's time to let the fellas in on your secret?

Nearly 3 decades, and you ate a tag, on the best elk unit in Utah. Maybe, perhaps, just maybe, your expectations are off the charts?


But.

Remember.

I still love ya. Like my obnoxious, slow brother, but I still love ya😁😁
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
No Expectations Here!

I've Got A feel for What's in The Areas I Hunt!

But With Your Input The North Slope Must Be Way Better Than The South Slope?
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
No Expectations Here!

I've Got A feel for What's in The Areas I Hunt!

But With Your Input The North Slope Must Be Way Better Than The South Slope?


Don't know.

But hunting yearly with my boys, bro in laws, dad in law,. WAYYYYYYYY MORE IMPORTANT than a 400" bull.

Priorities I guess
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
No Expectations Here!

I've Got A feel for What's in The Areas I Hunt!

But With Your Input The North Slope Must Be Way Better Than The South Slope?


I'm gonna jump out.

Dudes I hope will remember WHY we hunt.

Food, tradition, family.

Inches should be a distant 4th at best.

BUT.

Bess is one of my favorites in this place, and I feel I'm tip toeing a line between good natured ribbing, and getting bitchy.

So, I'm gonna get off that line with Bess.

Love ya brother
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,662
Hey Lumpy!

Somebodies BS BIOLOGY Claimed That Spikes Never Evolve In To BIG Bulls!

So KILL ALL THE SPIKES HUNTS Started!

The Worst Management Plan Ever Brought In To LE Units!

I Tried To Get Them To Start 3 ANY TYPE OF BULL HUNTS/REGIONS a couple of Decades Ago!

But They Didn't & Wouldn't Do It!

The 3 Regions/Units Could & Should Be For The Opportunists!

Let Them Hunt Them Any F'N Way They Want To!

But When The 3 Units Are Destroyed They Are NOT Gonna Stomp in To LE Units & Destroy Them As Well!

Nothin Worse Than a F'N Whining Opportunist Wanting To Destroy LE Units Just Because of GREED!
They started spike Units because biologist said that spikes will never grow into a big bull.
Bess, you are joking right?


The Book Cliffs is hurting because there is too many animals (deer, elk, Buffalo, wild horses, cattle) on the unit competing for the same food sources and water.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
They started spike Units because biologist said that spikes will never grow into a big bull.
Bess, you are joking right? Not Joking At All!

I Can GAURAN-DAMN-TEE you Most Yearling Bulls Are Spikes!

They've Made Every Excuse & Then Some For These Spike Hunts!

They Are For Nothing But To Generate More Money!

They tried Comparing Ranch Calf Bulls To Wild Natural Bulls!

Do Ranchers Of Any Kind Kill All The Yearlings In Hopes Of Their Herd Improving?

If Half The Spikes That Have Been Slaughtered In LE Units Could of Grown Up & Became Mature Bulls We Could of Moved A Bunch of Points Holders out of the Draw & Reduced Point Creep a little!

If You Think Spike Hunts Helped The Younger Generation at a Chance of ever Drawing an LE Tag You Are Very Secluded!

Many Years Ago I Suggested To Start 3 Opportunist Units & Let Everybody Pound Them!

But Also Said When Them 3 Units are Totally Destroyed Don't Come BAWLING & WHINING Wanting To Destroy LE Units!

There's Been a couple of LE Elk Units Now Destroyed Due To PISS POOR Management!

One Of Them is a BIG Unit!

Now A Whole Bunch of Points Holders Are Gonna Move Camp & Drawing Odds Become Worse In Other LE Units!

It's All About The Almighty Dollar Now Days & PISS On The Quality Of Our Herds!

Letting Spike Hunters Hunt The same Times As LE Tag Holders that Waited Umpteen Years To Draw The Tag is Total BS!






The Book Cliffs is hurting because there is too many animals (deer, elk, Buffalo, wild horses, cattle) on the unit competing for the same food sources and water.
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,662
I Can GAURAN-DAMN-TEE you Most Yearling Bulls Are Spikes!

They've Made Every Excuse & Then Some For These Spike Hunts!

They Are For Nothing But To Generate More Money!

They tried Comparing Ranch Calf Bulls To Wild Natural Bulls!

Do Ranchers Of Any Kind Kill All The Yearlings In Hopes Of Their Herd Improving?

If Half The Spikes That Have Been Slaughtered In LE Units Could of Grown Up & Became Mature Bulls We Could of Moved A Bunch of Points Holders out of the Draw & Reduced Point Creep a little!

If You Think Spike Hunts Helped The Younger Generation at a Chance of ever Drawing an LE Tag You Are Very Secluded!

Many Years Ago I Suggested To Start 3 Opportunist Units & Let Everybody Pound Them!

But Also Said When Them 3 Units are Totally Destroyed Don't Come BAWLING & WHINING Wanting To Destroy LE Units!

There's Been a couple of LE Elk Units Now Destroyed Due To PISS POOR Management!

One Of Them is a BIG Unit!

Now A Whole Bunch of Points Holders Are Gonna Move Camp & Drawing Odds Become Worse In Other LE Units!

It's All About The Almighty Dollar Now Days & PISS On The Quality Of Our Herds!

Letting Spike Hunters Hunt The same Times As LE Tag Holders that Waited Umpteen Years To Draw The Tag is Total BS!






The DWR did not start spike hunts because biologist said spikes will not turn into big bulls. That is flat out not true.

You took the time to post all this, I will take the time to address your points.

Point 1- Yes most yearlings are spikes.

Point 2- No excuses being made, majority of units have done very well with the spike only managment.

Point 3- Yes the DWR does try and generate money, the State legislators do not give the DWR the money they need.

Point 4- I know nothing about the DWR comparing yearling elk to yearling beef.

Point 5- Yes most cattle operations sell most of their yearling bull/stears, unless they are a feed lot.
Most cattle operations have cut their herds up too half or more, during these drought times and they forsure did not increase the amount of unproductive bulls.

Point 6- You are right (maybe) if half of the spikes grew to be big bulls the DWR could release more permits. But only if the kill meet the DWR age objectives.

Ponit 7- No spike hunting has not helped the younger generation to improved odds of drawing out, but spike hunting has introduced younger generations to big game hunting.

Point 8- The DWR has not needed to have three units for Opportunists, the system they have had
has been working too grow mature bulls.

Point 9- I don't see very many hunters complaining about most LE Elk Units. I hear a few very loud complaining about the Book Clifs and there is bigger problems with the Books than hunting of elk of any size.

Point 10- Early rifle no Spike Hunters, late rifle no Spike Hunters. Your choice not DWR'S.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Well!

I Guess I'm Just A Little Right & Wrong!

The DWR did not start spike hunts because biologist said spikes will not turn into big bulls. That is flat out not true.

You took the time to post all this, I will take the time to address your points.

Point 1- Yes most yearlings are spikes.



Point 2- No excuses being made, majority of units have done very well with the spike only managment.


Point 3- Yes the DWR does try and generate money, the State legislators do not give the DWR the money they need.

Point 4- I know nothing about the DWR comparing yearling elk to yearling beef.

Point 5- Yes most cattle operations sell most of their yearling bull/stears, unless they are a feed lot.
Most cattle operations have cut their herds up too half or more, during these drought times and they forsure did not increase the amount of unproductive bulls.

Point 6- You are right (maybe) if half of the spikes grew to be big bulls the DWR could release more permits. But only if the kill meet the DWR age objectives.

Ponit 7- No spike hunting has not helped the younger generation to improved odds of drawing out, but spike hunting has introduced younger generations to big game hunting.

Point 8- The DWR has not needed to have three units for Opportunists, the system they have had
has been working too grow mature bulls.

Point 9- I don't see very many hunters complaining about most LE Elk Units. I hear a few very loud complaining about the Book Clifs and there is bigger problems with the Books than hunting of elk of any size.

Point 10- Early rifle no Spike Hunters, late rifle no Spike Hunters. Your choice not DWR'S.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,535
I enjoyed seeing mature animals……. when I was hunting elk and especially during the rest of the year, while they are carrying antlers. I don’t find them very interesting if they didn’t.

After a few years hunting the spike only hunts it occurred to me, meat is meat and if I let the spike live, there was a chance he might survive until the end of the spike hunt and then……….. there was a much higher chance he’d eventually become a mature bull, because he went into a more secure class. Not that two year old bulls don’t get killed but not very many do, on LE units once they grow there second set of antlers.

So………. rather than shooting spikes, and figuring elk meat is elk meat, and once the elk herds started approaching carrying capacity (before the blue like specials started) I let all the spikes l came across live and I killed a cow.

I figured it this way, I saved a bull, I could likely see it become mature, in addition to that…., some fortunate hunter was going to get to kill it……as a mature bull, (the more mature bulls, the more hunter opportunity. (The more mature bulls the more hunters can have a tag. Hard to understand but true never the less.)

At the same time, we needed to keep the antlerless elk from over populating, so remove the cow helped that way as well. I figured it was a win, win, win, win, win. quasi -win.

More mature bulls, one win, more opportunity, second win, more hunters moving through the LE elk draws, third win, more public satisfaction, forth win, more asthenic wildlife on the mountain for the visitors and cabin owners fifth win and finally more income for the Department of Wildlife Resources………. quasi win……. but what the hell do I know.

Like I said, kill ‘‘em all if you want to, I’d rather have the mule deer anyway.
 
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Deerlove

Long Time Member
Messages
5,705
I Can GAURAN-DAMN-TEE you Most Yearling Bulls Are Spikes!

They've Made Every Excuse & Then Some For These Spike Hunts!

They Are For Nothing But To Generate More Money!

They tried Comparing Ranch Calf Bulls To Wild Natural Bulls!

Do Ranchers Of Any Kind Kill All The Yearlings In Hopes Of Their Herd Improving?

If Half The Spikes That Have Been Slaughtered In LE Units Could of Grown Up & Became Mature Bulls We Could of Moved A Bunch of Points Holders out of the Draw & Reduced Point Creep a little!

If You Think Spike Hunts Helped The Younger Generation at a Chance of ever Drawing an LE Tag You Are Very Secluded!

Many Years Ago I Suggested To Start 3 Opportunist Units & Let Everybody Pound Them!

But Also Said When Them 3 Units are Totally Destroyed Don't Come BAWLING & WHINING Wanting To Destroy LE Units!

There's Been a couple of LE Elk Units Now Destroyed Due To PISS POOR Management!

One Of Them is a BIG Unit!

Now A Whole Bunch of Points Holders Are Gonna Move Camp & Drawing Odds Become Worse In Other LE Units!

It's All About The Almighty Dollar Now Days & PISS On The Quality Of Our Herds!

Letting Spike Hunters Hunt The same Times As LE Tag Holders that Waited Umpteen Years To Draw The Tag is Total BS!
Sorry Bess half the spikes are not slaughtered.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Hey Niller!

If They Culled Humans When They Were 1 Year Old Would That Not Be Considered Slaughtering?

You Know Damn Well What I'm Sayin!



Now legally harvesting a game animal is “slaughtering” them?

Goodness Bessy. Don’t worry, I won’t tell anyone in the basin what a tree hugger you are these days.
 

Togwotee

Long Time Member
Messages
5,915
Bobcat has a way of making his valid points seem dumb but he's pretty much right here.

I think UT is caught in the same thinking most states are, balancing opportunity with supply and demand. money is always a factor in everything but it's not the only issue. the fact is most hunters would rather kill 2 forkies than one 4 point and UT seems to be the same .

I don't agree but it's not my call , so I'll burn my points ASAP and get out if quality is history.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,535
Bobcat has a way of making his valid points seem dumb but he's pretty much right here.

I think UT is caught in the same thinking most states are, balancing opportunity with supply and demand. money is always a factor in everything but it's not the only issue. the fact is most hunters would rather kill 2 forkies than one 4 point and UT seems to be the same .

I don't agree but it's not my call , so I'll burn my points ASAP and get out if quality is history.
Yep…… it’s a contest. We have contests here all the time……. “How many have you killed…… prove it……… oooow, nice, you’re a killer!”

There’s more chicken, pork and shrimp recipes posted here than there is venison. Just say’en.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Hey 440!

Things Surely Ain't Getting Better In This State!

Not Only Are We Getting Out Numbered By The Other Types in The Political World!

We're Getting Out-Numbered By The Other Types Here In The Hunting World As Well!

Most Of Them Won't Look In to The Future As Far As Tomorrow Morning!

Most Of Them Don't Give A RAT'S ASS About The Younger Generation Coming Up!

The Opportunists Are A SPECIAL Breed That's For Sure!

They'd Destroy Units That Took 20 Years To Get Where They Were/Are If They Could Find A Way!

The Sad Part Is They Are Finding Ways!

Some Of The Very Worst Game Management You'll Ever See Is Right Here In DRATville!





Bobcat has a way of making his valid points seem dumb but he's pretty much right here.

I think UT is caught in the same thinking most states are, balancing opportunity with supply and demand. money is always a factor in everything but it's not the only issue. the fact is most hunters would rather kill 2 forkies than one 4 point and UT seems to be the same .

I don't agree but it's not my call , so I'll burn my points ASAP and get out if quality is history.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,787
I enjoyed seeing mature animals……. when I was hunting elk and especially during the rest of the year, while they are carrying antlers. I don’t find them very interesting if they didn’t.

After a few years hunting the spike only hunts it occurred to me, meat is meat and if I let the spike live, there was a chance he might survive until the end of the spike hunt and then……….. there was a much higher chance he’d eventually become a mature bull, because he went into a more secure class. Not that two year old bulls don’t get killed but not very many do, on LE units once they grow there second set of antlers.

So………. rather than shooting spikes, and figuring elk meat is elk meat, and once the elk herds started approaching carrying capacity (before the blue like specials started) I let all the spikes l came across live and I killed a cow.

I figured it this way, I saved a bull, I could likely see it become mature, in addition to that…., some fortunate hunter was going to get to kill it……as a mature bull, (the more mature bulls, the more hunter opportunity. (The more mature bulls the more hunters can have a tag. Hard to understand but true never the less.)

At the same time, we needed to keep the antlerless elk from over populating, so remove the cow helped that way as well. I figured it was a win, win, win, win, win. quasi -win.

More mature bulls, one win, more opportunity, second win, more hunters moving through the LE elk draws, third win, more public satisfaction, forth win, more asthenic wildlife on the mountain for the visitors and cabin owners fifth win and finally more income for the Department of Wildlife Resources………. quasi win……. but what the hell do I know.

Like I said, kill ‘‘em all if you want to, I’d rather have the mule deer anyway.
Lumpy, all that sounds great the way you laid it out, but what happens when the herd is at carrying capacity, and the only tool the dwr has to remove elk and stay in the set guidelines of Age objective herd management is to start killing cows?

You passed up spikes, now there are that many more bulls on the landscape, most of witch will not produce the antler quality that the majority of hunters that wait years for those tags are willing to kill, and the ones that do are getting killed at younger ages because they do grow the antlers desired.

So say the age objective is set for 7.5 - 8 year old bulls. There's a ton of bulls in that age objective on the landscape but most of them are in that 300-340 class and most hunters are looking for 350+

The bulls with the genetics to reach 350+ will get there at a much younger age (I've personally seen age verified 4 year old bulls that are 350) so the hunters are killing the younger bulls driving the average age down on the harvested bulls. So now the average age after the hunt is only 6.9 but the DWR is trying to manage for 7.5+ their only option is to now reduce tags because they are not at the age objective.

So to bring this back around, the unit is at its herd objective, they now have to reduce the numbers, the management strategy will not allow for more big bulls to be killed, and not enough spikes are being taken. They now have to start giving out more cow tags to get the herd in check.

Eventually you have killed so many cows that the unit has a 1-1 bull to cow ratio. And is still at or over total herd objective for the unit.

This sounds awesome right? Look at how many bulls there are, but at what cost? Now you have less cows to reproduce and build the herd, along with a bunch of old bulls that people with tags don't want to kill because it took the 20+ years to draw the tag and they have expectations of a better quality bull.

In my opinion, The spike hunt has not ruined most units, it definitely doesn't help if a unit is already struggling (book cliffs) but if the herd is healthy the spike hunt can be useful and help give people opportunity. I've never participated but know people that do and they enjoy the experience.

The new elk plan is specifically designed to try and help the scenario I just laid out by reducing the age objectives to a more plausible age objective, this should allow for more big bull tags to be given, they also shifted when the majority of the rifle hunters will be hunting this should help the bigger bulls survive to see another season, but will also hopefully get people to maybe take some of those older not as large bulls. I think it will help, time will tell.
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
And When The DRATville Elk & Deer Herd Is Managed Properly If Grows Some Of The Best Bucks & Bulls Anywhere!

It's Already Been Proven!

What A Shame To Destroy It Due To Nothing more than GREED & MONEY!
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,535
Lumpy, all that sounds great the way you laid it out, but what happens when the herd is at carrying capacity, and the only tool the dwr has to remove elk and stay in the set guidelines of Age objective herd management is to start killing cows?

You passed up spikes, now there are that many more bulls on the landscape, most of witch will not produce the antler quality that the majority of hunters that wait years for those tags are willing to kill, and the ones that do are getting killed at younger ages because they do grow the antlers desired.

So say the age objective is set for 7.5 - 8 year old bulls. There's a ton of bulls in that age objective on the landscape but most of them are in that 300-340 class and most hunters are looking for 350+

The bulls with the genetics to reach 350+ will get there at a much younger age (I've personally seen age verified 4 year old bulls that are 350) so the hunters are killing the younger bulls driving the average age down on the harvested bulls. So now the average age after the hunt is only 6.9 but the DWR is trying to manage for 7.5+ their only option is to now reduce tags because they are not at the age objective.

So to bring this back around, the unit is at its herd objective, they now have to reduce the numbers, the management strategy will not allow for more big bulls to be killed, and not enough spikes are being taken. They now have to start giving out more cow tags to get the herd in check.

Eventually you have killed so many cows that the unit has a 1-1 bull to cow ratio. And is still at or over total herd objective for the unit.

This sounds awesome right? Look at how many bulls there are, but at what cost? Now you have less cows to reproduce and build the herd, along with a bunch of old bulls that people with tags don't want to kill because it took the 20+ years to draw the tag and they have expectations of a better quality bull.

In my opinion, The spike hunt has not ruined most units, it definitely doesn't help if a unit is already struggling (book cliffs) but if the herd is healthy the spike hunt can be useful and help give people opportunity. I've never participated but know people that do and they enjoy the experience.

The new elk plan is specifically designed to try and help the scenario I just laid out by reducing the age objectives to a more plausible age objective, this should allow for more big bull tags to be given, they also shifted when the majority of the rifle hunters will be hunting this should help the bigger bulls survive to see another season, but will also hopefully get people to maybe take some of those older not as large bulls. I think it will help, time will tell.
Really Jake…………in all honesty, I’d rather have a root canal than ever having responded to this elk regulation discussion. But I did, so against my better judgement and my hopeless compulsive behavior, when I get back from my annual trip to see if McDonald is still selling Diet Coke for a $1, I’ll try to do you the courtesy of responding……….. if you promise to ignore future nonsense you see coming from my direction.
 

Airborne

Active Member
Messages
138
JakeH actually makes sense and looks at data. A lot of the other back pocket biologists around here like to MIX in CAPITALS with LowER CaSE to make their point but make no sense. A lot of folksy terms and no substance. Look at JakeH's other thread regarding bull age and score--at least he is thinking clearing and trying to come up with an argument. A few other well known posters here are dinosaurs stuck in the mud with their CAPITALS and lack of substance.

One thing I am a little interested in is if ole Bessy AKA Elk Assassin actually cashed in his elk points and then didn't kill anything. Somebody before said this happened. If it did and he hasn't owned up to it it's kinda chickensh!t. I've don't get into too much here on MM but iv'e followed along for a few years and being honest and truthful with folks is #1, being a bullsh!tter loses a heck of a lot of credibility. Lay it straight Elk Assassin--did you draw a UT LE Elk tag in 2022 and what happened? I'll believe what ya tell us.

I have 17 elk points and if I eat tag soup you can bet your sweet a$$ I would own it and post it up!
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
Hey Niller!

If They Culled Humans When They Were 1 Year Old Would That Not Be Considered Slaughtering?

You Know Damn Well What I'm Sayin!


I'm ,6'5 north of 270.

In the wild, a herd bull. How many dudes, that started as babies my size, got to be my size?

Genetics still matter
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Hey Riley!

I Must Of touched A Nerve!

Me Mentioning The Opportunist Must Of Ruffled Your F'N Feathers?

I Didn't Draw An Elk Tag in 2022!

I Can Proudly Say I've Ate A Few tags In My Day!

I have More Fun Helping Family Members & Other Friends/Hunters than Shooting Something Myself!

I Don't Care If I Ever Shoot Another Buck Or Bull But If The Right One Gets Within My Short Range Weaponry He Might Be In Trouble!

Carry On With Your BS!
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
I'm ,6'5 north of 270.

In the wild, a herd bull. How many dudes, that started as babies my size, got to be my size?

Genetics still matter And I Guess You've Never Ever Heard Me Say That,Right?
I Guess I'm Just a PISSCUTTER Hossy Because You've Got Me By Height But Not Much By Weight!:D
 

Airborne

Active Member
Messages
138
Hey Riley!

I Must Of touched A Nerve!

Me Mentioning The Opportunist Must Of Ruffled Your F'N Feathers?

I Didn't Draw An Elk Tag in 2022!

I Can Proudly Say I've Ate A Few tags In My Day!

I have More Fun Helping Family Members & Other Friends/Hunters than Shooting Something Myself!

I Don't Care If I Ever Shoot Another Buck Or Bull But If The Right One Gets Within My Short Range Weaponry He Might Be In Trouble!

Carry On With Your BS!

Fair enough! Thank you

Sorry if I got pissy—dealing with my teenagers on a Sunday sometimes sours my mood!
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
9,169
Quite a few carry-overs in this small group!
Screenshot_20230115_214559_Message+.jpg
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Hey notdon!

You Might Be Right!

hossy's BS Got Me The Worst I Think!

His Secret General Season HoneyHole!

His General PISSCUTTER Tags He Gets Every Year!

The Trophy Bucks & Bulls Every Year!

He's Taller Than Me! (Most Mud Dobbers Are!:D)

His Pecker Is Bigger Than Mine!

Ya!

It Must Be Damn Near Time To Go Back To Work!

Right Hossy?

It seems like Sundays are the worst.
Isn't that right bess. 😁
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
6,852
I enjoyed seeing mature animals……. when I was hunting elk and especially during the rest of the year, while they are carrying antlers. I don’t find them very interesting if they didn’t.

After a few years hunting the spike only hunts it occurred to me, meat is meat and if I let the spike live, there was a chance he might survive until the end of the spike hunt and then……….. there was a much higher chance he’d eventually become a mature bull, because he went into a more secure class. Not that two year old bulls don’t get killed but not very many do, on LE units once they grow there second set of antlers.

So………. rather than shooting spikes, and figuring elk meat is elk meat, and once the elk herds started approaching carrying capacity (before the blue like specials started) I let all the spikes l came across live and I killed a cow.

I figured it this way, I saved a bull, I could likely see it become mature, in addition to that…., some fortunate hunter was going to get to kill it……as a mature bull, (the more mature bulls, the more hunter opportunity. (The more mature bulls the more hunters can have a tag. Hard to understand but true never the less.)

At the same time, we needed to keep the antlerless elk from over populating, so remove the cow helped that way as well. I figured it was a win, win, win, win, win. quasi -win.

More mature bulls, one win, more opportunity, second win, more hunters moving through the LE elk draws, third win, more public satisfaction, forth win, more asthenic wildlife on the mountain for the visitors and cabin owners fifth win and finally more income for the Department of Wildlife Resources………. quasi win……. but what the hell do I know.

Like I said, kill ‘‘em all if you want to, I’d rather have the mule deer anyway.
You killed a half dozen elk when you killed that cow.

Butt…..I’ve killed a few too. Mainly helping the farmers out.:confused:
 

OpeningDay

Active Member
Messages
596
OK but what would that accomplish???? The majority of 2 year old bulls are 5x5s.

And not all 1 year olds are spikes, a lot of the better genetic bulls will at least branch out, now you want to target those bulls as well?

The spike hunt accomplishes the goal of reducing bulls while giving opportunity, if your going to change anything it needs to be removal of the spike hunt and increased LE tags, but that is going to cut a very significant number of hunters out of the field.
Jake,
I am no biologist and only speak from my own experience. I have spent a lot of time on the Wasatch the last few years hunting or helping. I cant even count the number of Rag horn bulls I have seen. Yes, I have seen a lot and even taken a few Spikes, but I would love to see a way to thin the rags. I dont see how you can add more Big Bull tags. People already cry at quality. Adding tags just gives people more of a reason to cry when they actually have to hunt with that Rut/Rifle tag. Im not the expert though. I will leave it up to you guys to figure out how to thin out the rags. haha
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,787
Jake,
I am no biologist and only speak from my own experience. I have spent a lot of time on the Wasatch the last few years hunting or helping. I cant even count the number of Rag horn bulls I have seen. Yes, I have seen a lot and even taken a few Spikes, but I would love to see a way to thin the rags. I dont see how you can add more Big Bull tags. People already cry at quality. Adding tags just gives people more of a reason to cry when they actually have to hunt with that Rut/Rifle tag. Im not the expert though. I will leave it up to you guys to figure out how to thin out the rags. haha
You gonna burn your LE points and go on a 5 year waiting period to kill a 4x4 bull?

Hell maybe there is a bigger market for this than I think there is.

Or are we supposed to now add rag bulls into the spike regulations and instead of a spike hunt we do a rag bull hunt? That adds a whole new set of challenges to the already complex rules and regulations not to mention the enforcement of those rules.

Yeah there are a ton on rag bulls on the unit, but those are you future big bulls too, I get the arguments that the guys that are anti spike hunt are giving and agree with them to an extent, now people are pushing for rag bull hunts???

They have been adding big bull tags to the wastach every year for years, and just now are they starting to meet the age objective for the unit, with hundredsof additional tags. You start double dipping and who knows where it will lead.

I personally don't feel like a rag horn hunt is the answer, but what do I know.
 

Vanilla

Long Time Member
Messages
3,155
Hey notdon!

You Might Be Right!

hossy's BS Got Me The Worst I Think!

His Secret General Season HoneyHole!

His General PISSCUTTER Tags He Gets Every Year!

The Trophy Bucks & Bulls Every Year!

He's Taller Than Me! (Most Mud Dobbers Are!:D)

His Pecker Is Bigger Than Mine!

Ya!

It Must Be Damn Near Time To Go Back To Work!

Right Hossy?

I was reading on DWR website this morning. I think we have figured out why the Books and NE Utah are struggling. The report here seems disproportionate.

Bessy, quit poachin and tell your folks out there to stop being morons! Elk herd should rebound well.

JUST RAZZIN YA BOBCAT!

3DA2A3C9-2C72-471A-BB03-F27E888DF4C7.jpeg
 

OpeningDay

Active Member
Messages
596
You gonna burn your LE points and go on a 5 year waiting period to kill a 4x4 bull?

Hell maybe there is a bigger market for this than I think there is.

Or are we supposed to now add rag bulls into the spike regulations and instead of a spike hunt we do a rag bull hunt? That adds a whole new set of challenges to the already complex rules and regulations not to mention the enforcement of those rules.

Yeah there are a ton on rag bulls on the unit, but those are you future big bulls too, I get the arguments that the guys that are anti spike hunt are giving and agree with them to an extent, now people are pushing for rag bull hunts???

They have been adding big bull tags to the wastach every year for years, and just now are they starting to meet the age objective for the unit, with hundredsof additional tags. You start double dipping and who knows where it will lead.

I personally don't feel like a rag horn hunt is the answer, but what do I know.
I dont know where burning points came into the equation. My thoughts is to include these tags within the spike hunt. Four Point or Less. (General Tag). Whether added to the Spike tag allocation or taken from it, I do believe there would be a desire for people to put in for it, or buy it. The any bull tag is essentially the same tag. Not many "trophy' bulls are being taken on general season, and the first bull most people see is being shot. Spike or Branched. (IMO of course). Spikes are future big bulls too. I dont see the difference in shooting them as spikes or rags.
 

Shadow

Very Active Member
Messages
1,490
I think it depends on where a guy is in the point pool. It might surprise you how many guys would cash in 3-4 points on a management type hunt and start building points for other species, knowing they’ll likely never draw a regular LE tag.
 

Togwotee

Long Time Member
Messages
5,915
If you're counting on 4 year old superior genetics bulls to make up your 350 class you're in for a big disappointment. while it's true many bulls will never reach 350 it's also true most don't at 4-5 years old .

You can spin this all you want but the fact is UT's quality has been dropping for years and this will speed up the decline if it's all what I think it is. but that's true most everywhere with most every species.

I took a 382 bull out of UT years ago and with my 25 points I'll take something way south of that in the next few years. I can't complain, but it's sad to watch yet another state down hill.
 

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
9,169
You gonna burn your LE points and go on a 5 year waiting period to kill a 4x4 bull?

Hell maybe there is a bigger market for this than I think there is.

Or are we supposed to now add rag bulls into the spike regulations and instead of a spike hunt we do a rag bull hunt? That adds a whole new set of challenges to the already complex rules and regulations not to mention the enforcement of those rules.

Yeah there are a ton on rag bulls on the unit, but those are you future big bulls too, I get the arguments that the guys that are anti spike hunt are giving and agree with them to an extent, now people are pushing for rag bull hunts???

They have been adding big bull tags to the wastach every year for years, and just now are they starting to meet the age objective for the unit, with hundredsof additional tags. You start double dipping and who knows where it will lead.

I personally don't feel like a rag horn hunt is the answer, but what do I know.
It wouldn't hurt the Snatch if they added 25 or so more LE tags, it wouldn't even phase it.
Not all 25 would get harvested because it's not 100%.
Burn up more point creep.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
Hey notdon!

You Might Be Right!

hossy's BS Got Me The Worst I Think!

His Secret General Season HoneyHole!

His General PISSCUTTER Tags He Gets Every Year!

The Trophy Bucks & Bulls Every Year!

He's Taller Than Me! (Most Mud Dobbers Are!:D)

His Pecker Is Bigger Than Mine!

Ya!

It Must Be Damn Near Time To Go Back To Work!

Right Hossy?


See, I was gonna be nice. But, ya must not like that.

I'm sorry some spike hunter dared step on the San Juan after your 2.5 decades. We all know, that a public resource should be under lock and key saved for you exclusively. I'm sorry you bought the fairy tale that the SJ had dozens of 400" bulls standing next to a road waiting to be shot.

I'm sorry that I know of 2 bills over 390 killed in the foothills on a unit you could have drawn twice while you waited to go play big shot with Doyle.

I'm sorry genetics and biology were taught in the basin, so you "learned" them from high fence you tube channels..

I'm sorry you foolishly believe that when tags get cut, or hunts go away, that a turd herder from eadt Utah will have one waiting for him.

I'm sorry that while you ***** about $$$ in the DWR, you burn diesel to run to SLC and hand $fw your hard earned coin.

I'm sorry that I don't expect tens of thousands of dudes to NOT go hunt elk so in 30 years you can eat another tag.

Sorry that screaming 6 point bulls in the uintas are something you apparently can't find.

Really sorry. In fact the most sorry, that "trophy" to me, is a 22" 3.5yr old 4 point that my boy shot. That one means more to me than any 30" 200" buck that exists if it means not having the chance to repeat next year, to "cut tags"(make hunting only for corporate clients)

Sorry I was born into Viking blood, and 6'5 ain't that tall.

All these things I'm sorry about.

And I am sorry, but my shlong ain't nothing to write Penthouse about👍
 

Dangbig

Active Member
Messages
182
It wouldn't hurt the Snatch if they added 25 or so more LE tags, it wouldn't even phase it.
Not all 25 would get harvested because it's not 100%.
Burn up more point creep.
5 on the cache maybe a couple more and your right they won’t kill all of these
 

Vanilla

Long Time Member
Messages
3,155
Hoss out here dropping truth bombs?

And if the rumor bessy drew his tag is true, I’m legitimately hurt!

I thought we were friend, cat? What the heck?!?!?
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
And, since "trophy" is what you care about, and seem to have forgot the HUNTING part, I'll gladly hook you up with Rulon Jones, he's got lots of 390+ bulls. He takes visa, MC, and discovery
 

OpeningDay

Active Member
Messages
596
I think it depends on where a guy is in the point pool. It might surprise you how many guys would cash in 3-4 points on a management type hunt and start building points for other species, knowing they’ll likely never draw a regular LE tag.
Food for thought. I dont even believe every bull at even 3 years old is a 5 or 6 point bull. Soooo... Does a 2 or 3 year old bull that is 4 points or less carry inferior genes to become a "trophy' than a 2 or 3 year old bull that is already a 5 point or bigger ?
 
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elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
2,356
These threads get a little tiresome (except for the part about Bessy possibly finally drawing a tag, not telling anyone, and not killing a bull - that is VERY intriguing).

Fact of the matter is, we get a few decent winters with moisture like we have received this year, and the division can balance managing age objective and harvesting of cows appropriately (i.e., STOP killing all the cows), the sky won't be falling quite as much. Just my opinion, guess we shall see!
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
.
Food for thought. I dont even believe every bull at even 3 years old is a 5 or 6 point bull. Soooo... Do does a 2 or 3 year old bull that is 4 points or less carry inferior genes to become a "trophy' than a 2 or 3 year old bull that is already a 5 point or bigger ?


I'm 6 5'

My 17yr old is 5'11. I was 6 5' at his age

My youngest is long, might get 6 5'., He's 12

His twin sister will need platforms to hit 5ft

We all love in the same place, eat the same food.

Using Bess genetics, all of my offspring should equal or surpass me.

Biology is required in HS, more dudes should have paid attention
 

Shadow

Very Active Member
Messages
1,490
Food for thought. I dont even believe every bull at even 3 years old is a 5 or 6 point bull. Soooo... Does a 2 or 3 year old bull that is 4 points or less carry inferior genes to become a "trophy' than a 2 or 3 year old bull that is already a 5 point or bigger ?
That’s just it. The genes have to be just right to produce trophy animals. Just because a 2-1/2 year old has 5 points or a yearling is forked doesn’t mean he’ll hit 400”. Half the genes come from the cow as well.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
2,356
That’s just it. The genes have to be just right to produce trophy animals. Just because a 2-1/2 year old has 5 points or a yearling is forked doesn’t mean he’ll hit 400”. Half the genes come from the cow as well.
100% correct and why it is insane to manage for 380+ bulls. You have to let A LOT of bulls live to get a 380-400” bull. Utah managed that way for a lot of years to benefit large outfitters and special interest groups, but at the expense of the “average Joe” and, as we now know, the overall productivity of the herd.

I will admit that really big bulls (380+) are awesome and we all love and want them, but I love to hunt more. The old way of managing elk kept most of us on the sidelines. This new plan balances this out a bit more to provide opportunity, but still keep several units at a higher age objective for reasonable quality. The days of 400” bulls are gone, but those days were distorted and never sustainable for many reasons. The higher age objective units will still always produce 350” bulls-if guys scoff at a 350” bull, you probably should just take up high fence hunting 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,662
.


I'm 6 5'

My 17yr old is 5'11. I was 6 5' at his age

My youngest is long, might get 6 5'., He's 12

His twin sister will need platforms to hit 5ft

We all love in the same place, eat the same food.

Using Bess genetics, all of my offspring should equal or surpass me.

Biology is required in HS, more dudes should have paid attention
Hossblur
Some day when I finally run into you I hope there is no ground shrinkage. It would sure destroy the image of a great Greek God, when you are really 5 foot nothing and only 110 pounds soaking wet.😁
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
Hossblur
Some day when I finally run into you I hope there is no ground shrinkage. It would sure destroy the image of a great Greek God, when you are really 5 foot nothing and only 110 pounds soaking wet.😁


Life beats you down, and gravity is real.

I haven't been 110 lbs since elementary.

Think a taller Buddha, and you'll be closer😉

As to the rest of me, shrinkage is a real issue 😂😂
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
31,376
Hey Hossy!

Quit Rationing The Food & Let Them Kids Eat & Grow!:D

I Think You Should Write Novels!



.


I'm 6 5'

My 17yr old is 5'11. I was 6 5' at his age

My youngest is long, might get 6 5'., He's 12

His twin sister will need platforms to hit 5ft

We all love in the same place, eat the same food.

Using Bess genetics, all of my offspring should equal or surpass me.

Biology is required in HS, more dudes should have paid attention
 

Dangbig

Active Member
Messages
182
I get nervous enough about tards shooting spikes and not counting points let alone rags.
That was a big thing when the spike hunt started and it still happens but if they put in for it their more likely to understand what is going on rather than just blasting
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,787
Last year was an anomaly. Utah had really good calf survival rates the winter of 21-22, which produced lots of spikes. I get to watch elk all winter from my home. I usually see 3-4 spikes per hundred. This winter it's more like 15. Lots of yearling cows as well.
How long have you been observing the 3-4 per 100?

That could be an anomaly as well since we have been in a historically dry cycle for the past 20+ years.

I'm not saying 15 is normal, but maybe 7-9 is. Just a thought.
 
Last edited:

notdonhunting

Very Active Member
Messages
1,662
Screenshot_20230125_095919_OneDrive.jpg

If you only have 2 spikes per 100 head maide it through their first year that would be 20 branch antlerd bulls per 1000 head of elk, with the age group of 5.5 - 6 year old bulls, that would be 600 branched antlered bulls across all units.
If you figured 5 years at the rate of 600 bulls that would be 3000 mature bulls for 2004 permits again across all units.
That would be roughly 1000 mature bulls living to become as large as their genetics will allow them. That would be 5000 bulls that are from the age of 5 to 10 years old.
Same math for 6.5-7 age bulls killed.
240 after first year after 5 years, 1200 mature bulls for 485 permits. Across all units
Same math for 7.5 - 8 age bulls killed.
120 after first year and after 5 years 720 bulls for 266 permits. I rounded up to 6000 head of elk across all units.
 

DBLung

Active Member
Messages
398
How long have you been observing the 3-4 per 100?

That could be an anomaly as well since we have been in a historically dry cycle for the past 20+ years.

I'm not saying 15 is normal, but maybe 7-9 is. Just a thought.
I was born here. I remember when it was open bull, long before the drouth. Every year the weather effects numbers. Last winter was perfect for calf/fawn survival rates. There was good snow early then mild wet conditions later through winter. This year is really taking a toll so far. We're seeing deer die off from pneumonia (according to our local biologist), and highway hits are through the roof. Overall elk numbers are down (in my opinion) from previous years, but I may not be seeing them all. Deeper snow keeps them in the junipers and brush more. Sooner or later, they will be coming for our haystacks. Then we will know what's really going on. The number of spike to cow ratio has been mostly consistent 3-4 per hundred, other than this year.
 

Themaddness

Active Member
Messages
137
I live in Utah County on the Pleasant Grove/Lindon border up on the east side close to the mountain.

I just got done looking at a giant herd of Elk, I lost count at 50 and there were probably 25 more than that kept appearing over a rise.
In the bunch, I counted 17 spike bulls, and 4 rag horns.

This brings my question and what I will say is a very valid observation.

Spike hunts are not hurting our bull numbers, absolutely not in the least.

This Timpanogas part of the Wasatch unit gets absolutely pounded by Spike hunters annually.
There is 17 carry over bulls that won't even be looked at through a rifle scope for another 5 years, and this is one single herd in an absolute giant unit.

Makes perfect sense why the biologists are saying our LE units are "Bull Heavy", because they are.

Out of these 17 spikes, maybe two will achieve "Trophy" status enough to be harvested in 5-9 years from now, the rest will just be junk bulls regardless of age.

How many spikes survive year after year after year on our LE units to be carry overs and basically useless for the duration of their lives?

More than most people care to wrap their heads around....
I do not believe any game animals are useless. "What if" that genetically useless bull breeds with a superior quality cow and produces average 320 offspring?
Better yet "What If" that useless bull gets killed off by a less than average hunter that absolutely worked for the hunt.
 

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
8,901
I do not believe any game animals are useless. "What if" that genetically useless bull breeds with a superior quality cow and produces average 320 offspring?
Better yet "What If" that useless bull gets killed off by a less than average hunter that absolutely worked for the hunt.

A 320 bull is just trash and proof that Utah is in the dumpster.

If it ain't 400, then what's the point?

In fact, if it ain't in a herd of 50 other 400" bulls, and only 3 cows, standing on the side of the road, then Utah should be ashamed
 
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