Lifetime License auction

deadibob

Long Time Member
Messages
3,045
Let's just make them transferable so the butthurt posse can get theirs as well. Anyone care to start the bidding? Considering current auction tag prices they won't be cheap. So what are they worth to you? I wouldn't even think of giving mine up for $100,000

How about it Big John, what's your price?
 
Hey Bob?

Sounds Like they Might Give You 1/2 Price!

And not 1/2 of Your Price!

You gonna be OK with 250.00?

Damn LifeTime Tag Holders Have Destroyed the TARDville Deer Herd!:D:D:D
 
It’s not even about wanting to tag out on a deer every year. It’s about having the opportunity to carry my rifle in the field. It’s that chance of the possibility of seeing that buck of your dreams . It would be nice if my family could hunt with me. Having the opportunity to mentor my tag to a youth and hunt with them has been great. I personally haven’t tagged out on a buck in years. How can you put a price on that ?
 
No thanks Bobby. But I will donate a box of tissues to your cause!
do you need a P.O. box number or physical address to send those to? Just don't send the ones with lotion in them. I was wiping my glasses with those and it took me a while to figure out why they were so blurry and wouldn't get clean. ?
 
It’s not even about wanting to tag out on a deer every year. It’s about having the opportunity to carry my rifle in the field. It’s that chance of the possibility of seeing that buck of your dreams . It would be nice if my family could hunt with me. Having the opportunity to mentor my tag to a youth and hunt with them has been great. I personally haven’t tagged out on a buck in years. How can you put a price on that ?
PRICELESS! I was single when I bought mine but I did ask the clerk in Cedar City if I could buy some for my yet to be born children which I figured I would have someday. Nope she said.
 
Hey Bob?

Sounds Like they Might Give You 1/2 Price!

And not 1/2 of Your Price!

You gonna be OK with 250.00?

Damn LifeTime Tag Holders Have Destroyed the TARDville Deer Herd!:D:D:D
Hey Bessy maybe I'll sign you on with a mentor tag this year.;)
 
do you need a P.O. box number or physical address to send those to? Just don't send the ones with lotion in them. I was wiping my glasses with those and it took me a while to figure out why they were so blurry and wouldn't get clean. ?
How about a box of tissues and a box of wet wipes? :giggle:

Hawkeye
 
I had the chance to by a lifetime license the year they ended the program. There were probably hundreds of guys calling everyone they knew to convince them into buying the LL before the deadline. A freind of mine called me and was telling me how this would be a great way to "beat the system". We would never have to stand in line again at midnight or if and when the deer hunt goes to a draw. The LL guys will always be first in line. This is what was being sold as a selling point. The idea of buying my way to the front of the line and taking someone else's tag that they never had a chance at getting, didn't sit well with me. Even if I had a ton of money to spend, I'd never buy an auction tag because I believe those tags are being stolen from the average joe and should be in the general public draw, just like the LL tags should be.
 
Come on Ridge!

You Can't Blame Life timers for the Shape the TARDville Deer Herd is in!




I had the chance to by a lifetime license the year they ended the program. There were probably hundreds of guys calling everyone they knew to convince them into buying the LL before the deadline. A freind of mine called me and was telling me how this would be a great way to "beat the system". We would never have to stand in line again at midnight or if and when the deer hunt goes to a draw. The LL guys will always be first in line. This is what was being sold as a selling point. The idea of buying my way to the front of the line and taking someone else's tag that they never had a chance at getting, didn't sit well with me. Even if I had a ton of money to spend, I'd never buy an auction tag because I believe those tags are being stolen from the average joe and should be in the general public draw, just like the LL tags should be.
 
Come on Ridge!

You Can't Blame Life timers for the Shape the TARDville Deer Herd is in!

Elkass, nobody said the LLs are the reason our deer herd numbers are on the decline. Rather, we are questioning how to deal with the LL‘s in light of all the changes to the application system and the bonus points systems. You are the master of creating and defeating the straw man argument!

Hawkeye
 
Elkass, nobody said the LLs are the reason our deer herd numbers are on the decline. Rather, we are questioning how to deal with the LL‘s in light of all the changes to the application system and the bonus points systems. You are the master of creating and defeating the straw man argument!

Hawkeye
There is no questioning of how to deal with the Lifetime licenses, it was dealt with long ago and the current fluster cuck is the only reason people bought them when they did. It wasn't really hard to see the writing on the wall when there were several western states that were already draw only.
 
There is no questioning of how to deal with the Lifetime licenses, it was dealt with long ago and the current fluster cuck is the only reason people bought them when they did. It wasn't really hard to see the writing on the wall when there were several western states that were already draw only.
Just like I was saying. People who were buying them in that final year, were only doing it so they could beat the system. Plain and simple.
 
Well Hawkeye!

There are People on Here Blaming Life Timers!

And Wanting the Life Timers Licenses Taken away!

Or Changes made!

That is TOTAL BULLSSHHIITTT!

They Bought the Licenses Fair & F'N Square & You Can't Take them away from the Owners!

I Ain't The Master of any of the BS That Goes On!

But PLEASE do SPLAIN Why anybody is Even Thinking about making changes to the Life Timers?

Basically they Bought & Have a Contract for a Deer License for the Rest of their Lives!

Now if You Screwin with/Changing it down the Road Ain't Breach of Contract I've never seen anything that was!

GOOD GAWD!

Let's Use Our Heads & Have Some American Pride in this State & do the RIGHT Thing just once!

Oh and by the way:

I Do Not have a Lifetime License!

By the Way!

Taking Lifetime Licenses away From People Like BIGJOHN & deadibob Ain't gonna be easy!











Elkass, nobody said the LLs are the reason our deer herd numbers are on the decline. Rather, we are questioning how to deal with the LL‘s in light of all the changes to the application system and the bonus points systems. You are the master of creating and defeating the straw man argument!

Hawkeye
 
There are only about 3,000 left and they’re all getting older and are at the stage of their hunting careers where they rarely harvest a buck anyway. I don’t think they’re hurting anything.
It's not an over harvest issue, it's about having the golden ticket and getting a free pass by bypassing the draw system.
 
Last edited:
I would love to see the LL go away. My best friend and hunting partner has one. And I also hear about mentoring your grandkids. Once again, not fair. And I get its not fair to take that away from them either. But Utah needs to change the system and those 3,000 needs to be treated like the rest of us. Is there a state that has this exact same thing? I wonder why?

Let them have their lifetime license but not a lifetime tag. That system and way of thinking is long gone and cant be supported with where our deer herd is going and the demand on tags.
 
Bessy-

I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I agree that the state needs to find a fair resolution with lifetime license holders. I am just trying to point out the elephant in the room that some people refuse to recognize. The problem is the system has changed drastically since 1994. Lifetime license holders were promised a "General Deer Tag" each year. Guess what? There really are no general units anymore. We still call some deer units "General Units" even though they take 3-4 years/preference points to draw a tag. (Pine Mountain). The reality is that the entire state is now essentially Limited Entry and there are no General Deer tags.

Think about the elk system for a minute. You have Limited Entry units that require you to draw a tag and acquire bonus points and you General Units where you can buy a tag over the counter and hunt in one of several General Units. With regard to elk you have actual LE and General Units. With deer, we really only have LE Units. Sorry to break the bad news. The situation will only get worse as our deer herd numbers continue to drop, tag numbers are reduced, and application numbers increase. At this point, the two separate application systems and the separate BP and PP systems are becoming less useful each year.

So, if we reach a point in the near future where a “General Unit” such as Pine Valley takes 10 years for a resident to draw, is it fair to allow lifetime license holders to automatically get one of those tags every year? And if the state eventually makes the decision to move to a single application system and Bonus Point system for all deer units, is it fair to allow lifetime license holders to automatically pick the tag of their choosing (Henries, Paunsaugunt, etc.)? If you answered "no" to either of those questions, then you should understand where some of us are coming from in asking questions about how to address lifetime licenses in a fair and equitable manner. I don't have all of the answers, but one thing is for sure, change is coming!

Jason
 
Just like I was saying. People who were buying them in that final year, were only doing it so they could beat the system. Plain and simple.
I don't remember it that way at all. Most guys I was taking to at the time. Where saying why spend 500 bucks on a lifetime license . A Deer tag only cost 25 bucks. Does anyone remembers how much it really was in 1994 ? Hind site being 20/20. Now they wish they had bought one knowing what they know today. I don't think any of us knew what the state of hunting would be in 2021. My boys where 4 and 2 at the time. I thought about buy LL for them at the time. I tell them now I didn't know if they would even be hunters or piano playing sissies. They comment back common dad we are your boys. I wish I would have now of course. Oh and yes they did take Piano lessons for years. :)
 
A news paper article in 1994 .https://www.deseret.com/1994/3/2/19094771/last-chance-sales-soar-as-utah-drops-lifetime-hunting-licenses The article says from 1984 to 1994 only 1300 licenses where sold. Then before the close 2700 where sold and it sounded like and still going.
 
Last edited:
This is a long one.:) Bath water is cold now, but.....

The state made an agreement with LL holders and should honor it.

If you buy a life insurance policy that guarantees to pay off, would it be right 30 years down the road if the company you bought it from doesn’t have enough money to pay you off, or just doesn’t want to pay you off cause they want new customers, and wants to change the rules? No!

The state made a deal and had no problem taking our money, so they should live up to it, not try to find a way to wiggle out it. It’s not our fault they don’t have enough product (deer). But the product they already sold should be delivered first, before selling more product.

It seems quite simple to me. You sell something, you deliver to those you already took payment from first, then the others. If you don’t have enough product to sell to everyone, then you make more product (opportunity), not try to screw those you already took payment from so that you can make new sales.

When I bought my LL it took a $500 gamble that it would pay off in the long run. $500 was a LOT of money for me then. At that time there was no guarantee our deer herd would suck 30 years down the road. It could have gone the other way and deer numbers could have drastically increased and licenses could cost $10 now and deer quite plentiful, with few hunters wanting to hunt. Or I could’ve died a week after buying it without getting anything in return. It’s not right to try and change the rules now. If there were unlimited deer tags in this state now, nobody would be wanting to refund me my $500 with the gains it could have returned invested.

The honorable and right thing to do is for the UDWR to provide that deer tag they sold me 30 years ago, without an effort to try and screw me so they can sale it to someone else. It’s their job to create more product (opportunity/deer) to sale, if they want to sale more.

I know LL holders are a small minority and might be easy targets to take tags from, but my hope is that there are some old schoolers in the line of command who will honor that agreement made decades ago. I personally am not asking for a Henry Mtn. or Pauns tag, but when I handed over my $500 I had my choice as to where I wanted to hunt in about 85% or so of the state and I believe that is what should remain.

That’s my 2 cents on the subject.
 
Brian, you raise valid points. So in light of the current situation and current trends, what tag should you and the other 3000+ LL holders be guaranteed each year? If what Nevadahunter posted on the other thread is accurate, and the DWR is predicting that within the next few years, it will take 8-10 years for a resident to draw a "General Unit" tag in Southern Utah, should all 3000+ LL holders be guaranteed one of those tags? My only response to your comment is that I do not believe that we have any "General Units" anymore and it sounds like the situation will only get worse. It is a tough situation for sure and but I don't believe it is sustainable if the DWR's modeling numbers are accurate. Let's hope their numbers are wrong!

Hawkeye
 
I think that LL holders should be first in line to get the tags they bought years ago. I do believe we should have a choice amongst 80-85% of the state, just as we did 27 years or so ago when the vast majority of LL’s were purchased.

At that time there were a number of limited entry units that we knew were off limits (Pauns, San Juan, and others) as part of our license. We bought knowing that, so that’s how it should remain. If the whole state goes limited entry, then I think it should remain much the same as now. The current LE units we should have to draw just like anyone else, but we should get to pick our tag amongst the rest. I see nothing wrong with that.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the way it is now. I understand that those who didn’t buy an LL license don’t think it’s fair, but that’s life. I wish I had bought Amazon stock 20 years ago, but I didn’t. I don’t think those who did should have to give me some of their shares because it’s worth so much now and I didn’t buy then.

We took a gamble back then that was no guarantee to pay off. We shouldn’t be punished now because we happen to be on the right side of the gamble. No one knew back then how things would play out as far as deer herds, hunter numbers or our personal health. Like I said before, things could have played out much differently and there could have been 500k deer now with little hunting interest in the state and tags could be $5 and 2 or 3 for anyone who wanted one and our gamble wouldn’t look as good as it does. Or we could have just died and maybe our $500 only bought 2 licenses.
 
Best of luck to those of you with lifetime licenses. I understand your position and it has some merit. I also understand the other side of the issue that you were promised a general season deer tag each year and there really are no "General Units" anymore. Only one thing is certain -- change is coming. We will have to sit back and see how this shakes out.

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
Best of luck to those of you with lifetime licenses. I understand your position and it has some merit. I also understand the other side of the issue that you were promised a general season deer tag each year and the really are there are no "General Units" anymore. Only one thig is certain -- change is coming. We will have to sit back and see how this shakes out.

Hawkeye
LL holders are an extreme minority. All we can hope for is that those in control can see the importance of doing the right thing and honoring a deal, and not try to renege on it because it’s not working out as well for some as it is for others.
I’ll live with whatever comes down the pipe, but obviously I’m not hoping the state can find a way to screw me out of the tag they already sold me.
 
DWR has critera for limited entry and premium limited entry deer units. Buck to doe ratios. I say any unit that isn't managed as a quality unit( limited or premium limited) be available to lifetime license holders. problem solved . We will get the same tags as usual without the option to apply for the upper quality or premium permits unless we opt out of the lifetime tag. Currently , if we draw a premium or limited deer tag we forfeit our lifetime tag and pay for the premium permit. not much would change and we would have one point system .
 
Brian, you raise valid points. So in light of the current situation and current trends, what tag should you and the other 3000+ LL holders be guaranteed each year? If what Nevadahunter posted on the other thread is accurate, and the DWR is predicting that within the next few years, it will take 8-10 years for a resident to draw a "General Unit" tag in Southern Utah, should all 3000+ LL holders be guaranteed one of those tags? My only response to your comment is that I do not believe that we have any "General Units" anymore and it sounds like the situation will only get worse. It is a tough situation for sure and but I don't believe it is sustainable if the DWR's modeling numbers are accurate. Let's hope their numbers are wrong!

Hawkeye
I don't want to see LL tags taken away completely but I do think there should be a limit on each unit. Maybe 5% max on each sub unit season would be a good start. Let the LL holders list 5 different choices. That would ensure them a tag and also not over load a specific unit and if they still didn't get a tag with one of those 5 choices, then they would get first pick of the leftover tags.
 
A news paper article in 1994 .https://www.deseret.com/1994/3/2/19094771/last-chance-sales-soar-as-utah-drops-lifetime-hunting-licenses The article says from 1984 to 1994 only 1300 licenses where sold. Then before the close 2700 where sold and it sounded like and still going.
I remember that article and that is what lit a fire under our butts to buy them. Most of us had no clue they were even offered until that article came out.
 
The lifetime license contract we have specifically guarantees we will receive a deer tag every year unless the state completely shuts down the deer season. The state has closed deer hunting completely in the past. I believe it was back in the '30's but I may be off by a decade.
I still have that contract as well as every fishing, small game and big game license/tag/stamp I've ever owned since I turned twelve back in 1983.
 
Take the Lifetime Tags away & You're Gonna See 3,000 Law Suits!

Mark My F'N word on it!
One large class action lawsuit. If every lifetime license holder put $1,000 toward paying for litigation that would be $3,000,000 and for every license holder that didn't want to ante up there would be just as many who would put in 5k or more.

It would be a cut and dry case based on the contract alone and I guarantee even with all the hens clucking and crying on here that the state isn't going to consider messing with L.L. contracts.
 
The lifetime license contract we have specifically guarantees we will receive a deer tag every year unless the state completely shuts down the deer season.
I still have that contract as well as every fishing, small game and big game license/tag/stamp I've ever owned since I turned twelve back in 1983.

Hey Bobby! Now we are getting somewhere. Let’s see the contract you signed with the state. Post a photo of that contract on this thread. I’d love to see the specific language included in the contract.

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
I think every eligible hunter should be able to get their general tag of choice every year just like LL holders. That is definition of a general hunt. Maybe it is a shorter hunt with more restrictive shooting hours. Maybe you can’t use scopes. Maybe you can only use a long bow with wood flu flu arrows. Everyone gets the general hunt of their choice, just like LL holders. It is that simple.
 
Last edited:
There was no draw system at the time they were purchased and the pass was not free.
That's right. Things have changed. Look how many times the mule deer plan has changed over the years. It's time for the LL program to be tweeked. The Henries and Vernon units were closed in the mid 90s and then reopened in the late 90s but because they were draw units. You were not allowed a free pass on those units with a LL tag, you had to draw like everyone else. I remember when if you had a ded. hunter permit and drew a LE deer tag, then you could hunt all three seasons. Well, that rule got changed too. I propose the idea of having all LL tag holders be part of the draw just like everyone else in the 1st choice drawing. Then if a LL holder doesn't draw a 1st choice, they get a preference point for the following year. At that point, they get their pick of second choice tags before anyone else. That way the LL tag holder won't get that golden ticket tag to hunt that top end unit every year but still get to hunt every year.
 
That's right. Things have changed. Look how many times the mule deer plan has changed over the years. It's time for the LL program to be tweeked. The Henries and Vernon units were closed in the mid 90s and then reopened in the late 90s but because they were draw units. You were not allowed a free pass on those units with a LL tag, you had to draw like everyone else. I remember when if you had a ded. hunter permit and drew a LE deer tag, then you could hunt all three seasons. Well, that rule got changed too. I propose the idea of having all LL tag holders be part of the draw just like everyone else in the 1st choice drawing. Then if a LL holder doesn't draw a 1st choice, they get a preference point for the following year. At that point, they get their pick of second choice tags before anyone else. That way the LL tag holder won't get that golden ticket tag to hunt that top end unit every year but still get to hunt every year.
This would probably work if they put all deer tags in the same draw, which is the way it should be. I still maintain that if LL holders can’t share the burden of having to draw tags then the next fair option is go back to a statewide OTC hunt and let things sort themselves out. It is easy for LL tag holders to want tag numbers reduced when they don’t have to draw tags.
 
Were CWMU'/posted hunting units around then? If so should you be able to hunt them now they are a draw? 1st pick of those?
Try getting a 1,000 bucks from all 3,000 of those guys. Good luck with that.
There is not a contract in the world that cannot be broken.
I bet we'll less than half would put up another 500
Nothing in this world is guaranteed except death and taxes.
 
I agree that the LL licence holders tags should always be honored. That was the deal. What bothers me far more than that small group is this...

I am a lifetime Utah resident, I have lived and hunted here for 60 years. I hunt the archery season. I've drawn a tag every other year for the last dozen or so years, nothing special just a Wasatch tag, same as I have for a very long while. So every other year I get to sit home. Meanwhile I still hike in the area tag or not, and see all kinds of clueless folks stumbling around half lost who do have a tag. Have spoken to many of them, many seem to be fairly recent transplants from other states.

I know many folks who were not born here, have not resided here for more than a few years, nor have they been supporting our herds for as long as I if any at all, yet they get tags most years. Don't agree with that in the least little bit. Those of us who have been buying licences here for decades, should have some sort of priority over someone who just moved here, and has supported nothing here even a little bit.

Personally I would be great with not giving a single solitary tag to anyone who hasn't lived here for a very long while, before every single lifelong resident hunter that wanted one had one.

Gotta draw a line somewhere sooner or later, newly moved in to the state residents seem the perfect start to me, let them live here for a good long while before they can even put in for the draw. In the meantime they can volunteer to help out on habitat projects or the like to help our herds and earn their way, same as I have for most of my life.
 
I don’t have issues with out staters snagging tags that just moved here. But they should have to be pulling from the non res pool for 2-3 years before they can have a resident permit. But everyone from California can NEVER have a resident tag. Ever. Californians are a plague to other states.

What about dudes who jump ship on species all the time? What if once you applied for a OIL/LE moose, sheep, bison, elk, deer, etc... you were stuck to that species until you drew a permit or died. You choose moose and 10 years in see the writing on the wall? Too bad. You’re stuck with it. Or for general deer, you have unit specific points. You apply for ogden one year and don’t draw, you have 1 PP for ogden. Or we could do weapon specific PPs. You apply for an archery tag, you have a point for an archery tag next year.

what if we made it mandatory for anyone to draw a OIL tag, they had to have a minimum of 10 points before they were eligible for a random permit or any permit? (Excluding youth of course. They can get lucky until they are 18. Then the rule would have to apply). It would sure weed out the uncommitted guys who just apply for fun. Nothing pisses people off more than some clown that doesn’t ever hunt for the right reasons, pulling a sheep tag with 3 points.
 
Why don’t we move the deer hunt to a H/O hunt for every unit. OTC tags, 1 tag per hunter per year. 4 point of better. If you kill a deer, you can’t get a permit the following year. If you kill something smaller than a 4 point and get caught (with that many guys in the hills, you’ll get caught) you lose rights for 10 years. Divide the archery hunt into 2 hunts, 2 weeks each. Muzzy gets divided into 2 hunts, 3 days each season. Same with rifle. Can only have 1 tag. You kill, you have 24 hours to check it in.
 
Or we could just be grateful for the opportunities we currently have and quit trying to manage for “fairness” and feelings. We don’t have it that bad right now. It’s only going to get worse if we start worrying about what’s fair and how someone’s feelings are hurt cuz guys have muzzleloaders on their scopes and taking 1000 yard shots with their rifles.

I like that option the best. Everything else just sounds stupid.
 
Yes comparatively we do have it that bad now. Did you hunt here 30+ years ago? You from here? Way different is an understatement. There are far too many people vying for far too few tags, while having too few animals, something needs to give.

There are many minor rule changes that would help. Take archery for example, since that is what I do. I don't care who you are, you should have to pass a shooting test, shooting with broad-head tipped arrows, before you can even apply. Every single archer every year. I would bet my last dollar more than not would fail badly.

One example out of boatloads I have witnessed: I watched a guy taking his kid bow-hunting last year. There was a yearling buck on a steep hillside walking parallel to the paved road. It was at about 20 yards out when the kid started launching arrows at it from the middle of the road. It was about 60-70 yards out when he shot the last of his full dozen arrows. I believe he hit it in the hoof once, that was the only shot that even came within several feet of the deer.

Someone like that has no business shooting at our big game animals, regardless of how many animals there are or aren't. Period. Many small things like that, to force folks to become competent and responsible, could all add up and at least help somewhat.
 
I’m still waiting to a see a copy of Bobby’s contract. Post it up! Let’s see exactly what the state of Utah promised lifetime license holders.

Hawkeye
 
So Hawkeye?

A Mans Word/UDWR's Word is No Longer any Good?

JUDAS!

F'N!

PRIEST!


I’m still waiting to a see a copy of Bobby’s contract. Post it up! Let’s see exactly what the state of Utah promised lifetime license holders.

Hawkeye
 
Elkass, there you go again! You are the master of hyperbole and straw man arguments. I never suggested the DWR’s word is not good or binding. Rather, I am trying to understand what was agreed to by the parties and how the circumstances have changed over the last three decades. Frankly, I don’t know what exactly was promised to lifetime license holders when they bought their permits.

Numerous people on this thread have stated that the state of Utah is contractually obligated to provide a guaranteed permit to lifetime license holders even though the circumstances have changed drastically since 1994. Some folks, including you Elkass, have suggested that lifetime license holders should sue the state for breach of contract if the state made significant changes to the program. Then in post 35 above, Bobby stated that he still has a copy of his “contract” that he signed with the state of Utah. So let’s see it!

Isn’t it common sense that if you really want to understand what specifically the state promised and what obligations to State may have going forward that you should look at the contract between the state and the license holders? So rather than speculating and making hyperbolic comments, let’s have Bobby post a photo of his contract that he referenced above and see what it says. That seems like a logical step forward on this issue.

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
This Ain't Difficult Arithmetic Hawkeye!

The Lifetimers Paid 500.00 that Guaranteed them a Deer License Every Year for the Rest of their Lives!

Is it Really that Difficult to Understand?

Did You get a Marriage License?

Till Death do You part?

You Want Me to take that License away From You So I can Parade Your Wife around Town?

GEEZUS!

So In Today's World it's OK to be an Indian Trader?

As You Know!

I Don't Have a Lifetime License!

But I'm Sticking up for the Guys that do!

A Deal is a Deal and Now We got People wanting to pull a BREACH OF CONTRACT!

NOT HAPPENING!


Elkass, there you go again! You are the master of hyperbole and straw man arguments. I never suggested the DWR’s word is not good or binding. Rather, I am trying to understand what was agreed to by the parties and how the circumstances have changed over the last three decades. Frankly, I don’t know what exactly was promised to lifetime license holders when they bought their permits.

Numerous people on this thread have stated that the state of Utah is contractually obligated to provide a permit to lifetime license holders even though the circumstances have changed drastically since 1994. Some folks, including you Elkass, have suggested that lifetime license holders should sue the state for breach of contract if the state made significant changes to the program. Then in post 35 above, Bobby stated that he still has a copy of his “contract” that he signed with the state of Utah. So let’s see it!

Isn’t it common sense that if you really want to understand what specifically the state promised and what obligations to State may have going forward that you should look at the contract between the state and the license holders? So rather than speculating and making hyperbolic comments, let’s have Bobby post a photo of his contract that he referenced above and see what it says. That seems like a logical step forward on this issue.

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
Yes comparatively we do have it that bad now. Did you hunt here 30+ years ago? You from here? Way different is an understatement. There are far too many people vying for far too few tags, while having too few animals, something needs to give.

There are many minor rule changes that would help. Take archery for example, since that is what I do. I don't care who you are, you should have to pass a shooting test, shooting with broad-head tipped arrows, before you can even apply. Every single archer every year. I would bet my last dollar more than not would fail badly.

One example out of boatloads I have witnessed: I watched a guy taking his kid bow-hunting last year. There was a yearling buck on a steep hillside walking parallel to the paved road. It was at about 20 yards out when the kid started launching arrows at it from the middle of the road. It was about 60-70 yards out when he shot the last of his full dozen arrows. I believe he hit it in the hoof once, that was the only shot that even came within several feet of the deer.

Someone like that has no business shooting at our big game animals, regardless of how many animals there are or aren't. Period. Many small things like that, to force folks to become competent and responsible, could all add up and at least help somewhat.
Born and raised utah. Been hunting here my whole life. It’s better than it was, and not worse than it has been in the past.

and what’s your point? Do you hit everything you shoot at? You ever missed before. We all start somewhere. Yeah most guys would fail the archery test probably. But there’s a lot of rifle guys out there who think they are hawt chit that can’t hit the broadside of a barn. Doesn’t mean they don’t have the right to go hunting.

apparently you think you have all the answers. But none of your suggestions fix the bigger issue, which is wildlife management. Utah needs to quit social management and worry about wildlife management. That’s where we went wrong to begin with.
 
Have you read the contract recently ElkAss? What does it say? Did the state promise them a “general season deer tag” every year? Did the state promise them a deer tag of their choosing regardless of any future changes in deer management? Did the state include any exceptions in the contract? Please enlighten us. If you are like me, however, and you don’t know what the contracts says, then stop spouting off for 5 minutes and let’s see if Bobby or somebody else will post the language from the contract.

By the way, a BREECH is a part of a gun and has nothing to do with a contract. ?

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
Have you read the contract recently ElkAss? What does it say? Did the state promise them “general season deer tag” every year? Did the state promise them a deer tag of their choosing regardless of any future changes in deer management? Did the state include any exceptions in the contract? Please enlighten us. If you are like me, however, and you don’t know what the contracts says, then stop spouting off for 5 minutes and let’s see if Bobby or somebody else will post the language from the agreement.

By the way, a BREECH is a part of a gun and has nothing to do with a contract. ?
What?
 
I’m just razzing you ElkAss. You dish it out a lot so I assume you can take it once in a while! Thank goodness Founder added the edit feature on this forum!

Can you reach out to your buddy Bobby and ask him to post a copy of the contract language?

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
elkass doesn’t even hunt so why does he care? Sure he tagged along on a couple hunts over the years (surprise!) but he’s never posted an animal he’s killed. Why is that? It’s because he doesn’t hunt. A guy that has almost 100000 posts on a hunting forum doesn’t have time to hunt.

so elkass why do you care about lifetime licenses when you don’t even hunt?
 
Let me know when you guys are ready to riot, I will come down from Idaho. The State of Utah sold them a Lifetime License to hunt every year, well the experts keep saying that the number of hunters is shrinking, that hunting is a dying sport. What’s the problem they were the ones that dug deep in there pockets for that five hundred dollars to bail the State out in a time of need.
 
Thanks Big John for posting links to the relevant code section and the administrative rule. Yes, I have read those statutes before but the problem is that both of those sections have been amended and modified (probably multiple times) since 1994. So what they say today is different then what they may have said pre 1994. That is why I would like to see what the actual contract says that the state entered into with lifetime license holders.

In addition, both of those statutes clearly reference “general season” deer units. That is the point that many of us are raising is that with all of the changes to the deer management system since 1994, there really are no “general units” anymore. Once again, that is why I would like to see what the language of the contract says to see if the state included the same limitation to “general units” and to see if they included any other limitations or exceptions.

Hopefully, deadibob will post a photo of the contract language so we can all see it. He seems to have gone silent since I asked to see the contract he mentioned in Post 35 above. Have a good day boys!

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
This whole argument is just crabs in a pot!
Those who have are being pulled back info the pot....if the “bottom crab” gets his way.
It’s NOT about management! It’s about guys who have and guys who don’t and the latter guys have the strong desire for socialism.... because gawd know they want things “fair”.
3000 tags is and should be a drop in the bucket but a few self-appointed smart guys want to make deer management all about those 3000 tags.
Silly and petty.
Zeke
 
Thanks Big John for posting links to the relevant code section and the administrative rule. Yes, I have read those statutes before but the problem is that both of those sections have been amended and modified (probably multiple times) since 1994. So what they say today is different then what they may have said pre 1994. That is why I would like to see what the actual contract says that the state entered into with lifetime license holders.

In addition, both of those statutes clearly reference “general season” deer units. That is the point that many of us are raising is that with all of the changes to the deer management system since 1994, there really are no “general units” anymore. Once again, that is why I would like to see what the language of the contract says to see if the state included the same limitation to “general units” and to see if they included any other limitations or exceptions.

Hopefully, deadibob will post a photo of the contract language so we can all see it. He seems to have gone silent since I asked to see the contract he mentioned in Post 35 above. Have a good day boys!

Hawkeye
I don’t recall any contract. We paid for what they were selling and both parties had an understanding of what was being bought and sold. It’s quite simple, no written contract needed. The state has proven for 27+ years what it sold us.....a deer tag every year.

You can change the name from General to any name you want, but the bottom line is, the state sold us a deer tag that was good for a large chunk of the state for $500 for the rest of our life. I honored my part of the deal and the state should honor its part of the deal.

In the end, the state could probably find a way to screw us, but I don’t believe it will happen. I have faith that those in power will do the right thing and honor the understanding that the state and LL holders had when we exchanged money for that license.

It would take a lot of work and it would look horrible if the state was actively trying to renege on an agreement it made 27+ years ago just so that it could take our tag we already paid for and sale it to someone else. To sale the same thing twice!
 
I do not feel the state wants take away our lifetime license or deer tag. Most is just speculation of others. I do have the paper filed away some place that I got in 1994. I will try and find it. I also have a poster of sorts that the state gave me framed on my wall. Here is what I have framed on my wall. It is something most of us hold sacred.
BBCA60B2-2859-4154-9ACC-6A0E400DE33F.jpeg
 
I do not feel the state wants take away our lifetime license or deer tag. Most is just speculation of others. I do have the paper filed away some place that I got in 1994. I will try and find it. I also have a poster of sorts that the state gave me framed on my wall. Here is what I have framed on my wall. It is something most of us hold sacred. View attachment 37437
WHAT!!!??!? That’s cool. I don’t remember getting anything like that!
 
Does anyone have a proclamation from 1994?
Be interesting to see what "general" hunts are now LE? Does that mean the 3,000 lifetime guys should be able to hunt those? If not why?
 
Zeke, you and I agree that how the state handles the lifetime license issue will not change our deer herd numbers. Unfortunately, however, no western state has figured out how to consistently grow their deer herds. According to what I heard in the recent mule deer working meeting, the Utah DWR feels like it is doing everything it can in spite of factors beyond its control, including drought, that are impacting our herds.

If deer herd numbers keep dropping and tags numbers keep getting cut then we can all look forward it many more tough discussions about how to “fairly” divide up the shrinking pie. That has nothing to do with socialism. It is the reality of our ever changing world and game management systems. The one game changer would be if someone can figure out how to consistently grow our deer herds.

Hawkeye
 
BigJohn, thanks for sharing that poster. That is very cool. ?? Let us know if you can find your paperwork and contract.

Hawkeye
 
I do not feel the state wants take away our lifetime license or deer tag. Most is just speculation of others. I do have the paper filed away some place that I got in 1994. I will try and find it. I also have a poster of sorts that the state gave me framed on my wall. Here is what I have framed on my wall. It is something most of us hold sacred. View attachment 37437


There you go. It says you can hunt and fish for the rest of your life. That could mean rabbits and trout. Not necessarily deer. In the lifetime license rule, It say Lifetime license holders MAY receive a GENERAL deer permit. It does not say SHALL receive any deer permit. As soon as they change the designation to all Limited Entry units. You guys are hunting rabbits.
 
You paid to play and the State agree to it so yes the contract SHOULD be binding.
I guess the state could offer them $500 a year for life, to give back that chance.
 
I’m still trying to figure out what the lifetime license holders in the state actually agreed to? I’ve read the code section and administrative rule but it would be interesting to see some of the paperwork from that time period. Bobby said he has a copy of the actual “contract” that he signed in 1994. Hopefully, Bobby or BigJohn will post some of the paperwork or the actual contract.

Founder is correct that you do not need a written agreement to have a binding contract. Oral agreements can certainly be enforceable. If there is a written contract, however, the intent of the parties’ agreement will generally be determined from within the four corners of that document.

Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
This has me thinking...most of the private land today was transferred from the government to individuals via sales or grants such as homesteading a long time ago. What a sweet deal! All you had to do was claim the valley you wanted and take care of it for awhile and you got the deed to it. It's really not fair that they ran out of land to give away and I didn't get an opportunity to get some of that land back then and it's more valuable now than ever before. I think all of those private land owners should now be required to share their land and it should be redistributed to me.

That makes sense, right?
 
I had 4 ML300 points when that hunt went away.

As soon as the general deer tags go away so do the deer tags for Lifetime license holders.
 
So?

49 F'N Years of PISS POOR Management & there's always an Excuse?

Yup!

We gotta Drought Going on!

Let's go as LOW as Trying to do something Not Fair to Life Time Tag Holders!

Like what somebody on another Thread Said:

Bend Over!

Another MM'er Said:

That Come With Lube?




, you and I agree that how the state handles the lifetime license issue will not change our deer herd numbers. Unfortunately, however, no western state has figured out how to consistently grow their deer herds. According to what I heard in the recent mule deer working meeting, the Utah DWR feels like it is doing everything it can in spite of factors beyond its control, including drought, that are impacting our herds.

If deer herd numbers keep dropping and tags numbers keep getting cut then we can all look forward it many more tough discussions about how to “fairly” divide up the shrinking pie. That has nothing to do with socialism. It is the reality of our ever changing world and game management systems. The one game changer would be if someone can figure out how to consistently grow our deer herds.

Hawkeye
 
There you go. It says you can hunt and fish for the rest of your life. That could mean rabbits and trout. Not necessarily deer. In the lifetime license rule, It say Lifetime license holders MAY receive a GENERAL deer permit. It does not say SHALL receive any deer permit. As soon as they change the designation to all Limited Entry units. You guys are hunting rabbits.
Well good thing the only ones wanting to change the general units to limited entry units are here on this forum and not on the WB or RACs. Watch the many WB meetings in the past. They are very adamant on not wanting to get away from a “general deer hunt”. We have our limited units management for quality. We have our general units managed for opportunity. DWR isn’t looking to getting away from opportunity hunting any time soon. Wishful thinking coming from the few who want otherwise.

I think a few people here forget that their opinions and ideas stop at their own posts on the internet. You might think they have power and authority (or wish) over everyone and everything, but the reality is, all they have control over is themselves. And they aren’t happy about that, so they wish to see everyone else miserable.
 
Well good thing the only ones wanting to change the general units to limited entry units are here on this forum and not on the WB or RACs. Watch the many WB meetings in the past. They are very adamant on not wanting to get away from a “general deer hunt”. We have our limited units management for quality. We have our general units managed for opportunity. DWR isn’t looking to getting away from opportunity hunting any time soon. Wishful thinking coming from the few who want otherwise.

I think a few people here forget that their opinions and ideas stop at their own posts on the internet. You might think they have power and authority (or wish) over everyone and everything, but the reality is, all they have control over is themselves. And they aren’t happy about that, so they wish to see everyone else miserable.
When "General" Units were placed in the draw and some take 5+ points to draw they may as well be called LE.
 
State can’t take personal property without just cause and compensation. So suggesting that these people be stripped of these licenses would be unconstitutional. But what do I know I am just a red neck who likes to kill stuff
 
When "General" Units were placed in the draw and some take 5+ points to draw they may as well be called LE.
That’s your opinion, but the state still defines the hunt as general, at they treat it as such. 5+ point units are few and far between. Pine valley and thousand lake rifle is the only 2 im aware of. Please enlighten me if there are others. That leaves 28 other units and 3 other hunts on each of those units that you can draw with 0-3 points. Most are 0-1.
 
Simple solution. Make it a true statewide general hunt for all. Most people are going out with friends or family that draw at least one tag every year anyway. It will not make much difference. I met a group of six with three pickups, two campers, two side by sides, and one LL tag last year. These tag reductions are nothing burgers.
 
So Hawkeye?

How You gonna Nicely Tell Founder You're gonna Take His Life Time PISSCUTTER Tag away from Him?

BIGJOHN Ain't gonna just Hand You His!

deadibob is So F'N Mad He Can't Type!
 
Elkass, I’m not taking Founder’s lifetime license or anybody else for that matter. I have just as much say in this issue as you do – – NONE!!! Unlike you, however, I can see both sides of the issue and they both have some merit. I’m just trying to better understand the issue and get a sense where things are going. I have no inside knowledge but my gut tells me changes are coming. I would still like to see a copy of the “contract” deadibob referenced above but if he is “too f’n mad to type” then he’s probably not in the frame of mind to take a picture and post it. ???
 
Haha it’s somewhat comical to see these older guys jumping on the feelings bandwagon and getting upset because it’s not “fair”. I thought the hand my my trophy mentality was only for the kids these days. Apparently it’s slowly creeping up on the older generations as well.
 
That’s your opinion, but the state still defines the hunt as general, at they treat it as such. 5+ point units are few and far between. Pine valley and thousand lake rifle is the only 2 im aware of. Please enlighten me if there are others. That leaves 28 other units and 3 other hunts on each of those units that you can draw with 0-3 points. Most are 0-1.
If it’s not OTC it’s LE not general....
 
So those wanting to switch the general to a LE, will the 5 year waiting period apply when you draw? You’re ok with the 5 year wait before you’re eligible for another deer tag in utah? You thought elk tags were hard to draw now, wait until you send an extra 75k+ applicants annually to that pool because they can’t apply for deer permits for 5 years.

yeah that’ll definitely help create some better opportunities for hunters.
 
So those wanting to switch the general to a LE, will the 5 year waiting period apply when you draw? You’re ok with the 5 year wait before you’re eligible for another deer tag in utah? You thought elk tags were hard to draw now, wait until you send an extra 75k+ applicants annually to that pool because they can’t apply for deer permits for 5 years.

yeah that’ll definitely help create some better opportunities for hunters.
Elk has a general OTC hunt with a cap.
 
This is getting a little crazy guys! The deal was a lifetime license includes a fishing license a upland game license and a deer tag for your lifetime ! The price was 500.00 . The state started selling Lifetime license in 1984 threw 1994 when they decided not to sell them any longer. All of the contracts or wishing you had take the opportunity doesn't matter . Until the state of Utah decides to do something different or not honor the lifetime license. I will be perfectly content on Hunting and fishing and enjoying the great outdoors just as I always have ! Hope to seeing you on the mountain ! God bless and good luck on the up coming draw.
 
Last edited:
All these attempted, potential changes to lifetime hunters' annual privileges will only make some attorneys rich in the process (regardless of outcomes).
 
I had my chance and didn’t spend the 500 but the ones who did shouldn’t lose them because people are whining now. It won’t help the deer herd by changing this. Habitat grows does, does grow bucks
Lifetime license do not affect crap no matter how some want to word smith it.
 
I’m still waiting to a see a copy of Bobby’s contract. Post it up! Let’s see exactly what the state of Utah promised lifetime license holders.

Hawkeye
You can keep on waiting. The contract has nothing to do with you and doesn't effect you in any way whatsoever. I will rub some salt in it for you though about one thing that contract states. We can move out of Utah and hunt as residents in that state and we will still get our Utah deer tag every year.

That's the best of both worlds, I can move out of this schitt hole and still hunt and fish it every year.:LOL:
 
There isn't one person here that is complaining about lifetime licenses who wouldn't go back in time and buy one today if they were able to, Not one.

Since the original question I posted hasn't been answered I'll ask it differently. If 100 or even 1,000 lifetime licenses were available and auctioned off by SFW what kind of money would you expect them to bring?
 
Bearpaw Outfitters

Experience world class hunting for mule deer, elk, cougar, bear, turkey, moose, sheep and more.

Wild West Outfitters

Hunt the big bulls, bucks, bear and cats in southern Utah. Your hunt of a lifetime awaits.

J & J Outfitters

Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, shiras moose and mountain lions.

Shane Scott Outfitting

Quality trophy hunting in Utah. Offering FREE Utah drawing consultation. Great local guides.

Utah Big Game Outfitters

Specializing in bighorn sheep, mule deer, elk, mountain goat, lions, bears & antelope.

Apex Outfitters

We offer experienced guides who hunt Elk, Mule Deer, Antelope, Sheep, Bison, Goats, Cougar, and Bear.

Urge 2 Hunt

We offer high quality hunts on large private ranches around the state, with landowner vouchers.

Allout Guiding & Outfitting

Offering high quality mule deer, elk, bear, cougar and bison hunts in the Book Cliffs and Henry Mtns.

Lickity Split Outfitters

General season and LE fully guided hunts for mule deer, elk, moose, antelope, lion, turkey, bear and coyotes.

Back
Top Bottom