Max range for 50 cal. on elk

D

DonV

Guest
I shoot a remington 700 ML. I want to get the gun set so I shoot as far as possible and still cleanly take an elk. I want to shoot .50 cal jacketed down to .44 handgun bullets. I currently shoot 100 grains (or maybe 110). I assume I should use the heaviest bullet possible - which is what? What would be everyone's reccomendation to get the max range out of my gun (bullet and powder). Assuming I have a rest and no the distance (I will have a laser rangefinder) I am sure I can hit an elk past the range my bullets have enough energy to assure a clean kill. I am hoping to be able to reach out to 200 yards although I think 175 is more realistic (assuming a quartering away shot).

Suggestions for loads and what I should assume is my max. range?
 
There's a million dollar question with a million answers. A lot depends on your ability, environmental conditions, position of the elk, cover, optics, etc, etc. I don't like to shoot over 125 yards with 100-grain loads and absolutely will not shoot over 150. Even with 150-grain loads, I limit myself to 150 yards. Certainly they will shoot farther but multiply the things that can go wrong by 10 for every 10 yards further you shoot. I've seen guys hit a metal gong at 1000 yards with a flintlock but is that really their effective range? Get close and there will be no problems. Of the dozens of animals I've killed with the muzzleloader, only a couple were over 100 yards. That'as part of the fun of muzzleloader hunting; getting close.
 
DonV: Listen to what "sheephunter" is telling you. You have no business trying to kill any animal at more than 125-150 yards. I don't care how much powder, what kind of powder, what kind of bullet, or weight of bullet you use. You're asking for trouble any further than that and you're taking one hell of a chance of wounding an animal and not effectively dispatching it.
 
Just from my experiance with whitetails it seemed that pushing the 150 yard mark would be really risky enerhy wise. I often do not get pass throughs on very close medium size whitetails. The bullet always hits a few bones and is just under the skin on the opposite side. However, these are close range medium size (175 # live weight) deer. I figured elk at longer ranges would require a lot more power. I figured 150 was the max. but I was hoping to stretch it bit further - but I will not. It is highly unlikely that shooting out to 150 and not 175 will ever cost me an elk.

Thanks, and good luck to everyone going out this year.
 
If'N I remember right...I don't shoot sabots anymore as CO doesn't think that they are a good idea.

But, I'm a thinking (that's scary) that a ML w/sabots pushes a .429 bullet at the same speed that it comes out of a .44 rifle. Check the websites of the big 3, Rem, Win & Fed for ballistics on their .44 loads and compare it to your ballistics.

I think .44 bullets come up to 300 grainers, if'N not more.

I'd be shooting a solid lead or copper bullet of atleast 250 grains, which would produce acceptable accuracy in my gun, or better than the others that I've tested, if'N I were you. And, I test a bunch of loads to see what shoots the best.
 
DonV: You have no business trying to shoot an elk at 150 to 175 yards with any muzzleloader. You are running far too big a risk of wounding it. Do what you are supposed to do with a muzzleloader and get closer. You are not shooting a centerfire rifle. Have a hunting experience, not a shooting experience.
 
stinky: You lost something in your equation. The amount of powder, and type of powder, is what determines the speed of the bullet. Not the bullet size.
 
Don...I'm going to elaborate on my last thread. I believe the data given on the range for your gun is conservative. .44 mag pistols have been used to down elk at 100 yards and farther. Elmer Keith thought a pistol was good for considerably farther than that (not that I do)

From the Hornady WEbsite: w/90 & 100 grns Pyrodex, fps is 1,600fps w/a 260 & 1,400 w/a 300 grainer.
(there are companies tha have sabots that are rated for 150 grains of pyro, I'm assuming your gun should handle that, and if so you should have increased fps, but do not exceeed Rem.'s recommendation for your gun)

From the Remington Website:

fps w/a 44 Rem Mag Rifle, at the muzzle 1,650 w/a 240 & 1,524 w/a 275. (you'll notice, like I said in my last thread, almost the same fps as you should be getting w/your 700ML)

fps w/a .44 Mag rifle at 100 yds w/a 240 bullet is 1,114, w/a 275 you have 1.293 at 100 and 1,093 at 200.

fps w/a 44 Rem Mag Pistol at the muzzle is 1,235 w/a 240 & 1,180 w/a 275. You'll note that the same 275 load in a rifle, has more fps at 100 yards than a pistol does at the muzzle, and about the same fps at 200 yds as it does at the muzzle out of a pistol (or actually 87 fps less)...

SO at ABOUT, 150-175 yards you have the exact same fps as a 44 pistol does at the muzzle. I pity the poor fool that doesn't KNOW that a .44 bullet has enough energy for elk when it leaves the muzzle. SO, next, at ABOUT 175-200 yards, the rifle will have the same fps as the pistol at 25 yards...MORE THAN ENOUGH ENERGY. Ask anybody if a 44 mag has enough energy for elk at 25 yards.

Now, ask pistol shooters how far away is their pistol able to knock down elk effectively, and add ATLEAST 100 yards to that, as far as the bullet having the neccessary energy...I'd say right about 200 yards (Elmer said the pistol was up to 200 yards)

Now, the next factor is you and the gun...The question is, how accurate are you at 150, 175, or 200 yards. I'm assuming that your inline has a scope on it and that w/the right load that it will shoot better than you. I do note that you believed that you could hit that far away and that your doubt was about retained energy of the bullet. Only you can answer the question about accuracy. I'll say this, being able to hit the lungs on a bull one in 4, or 3 times or half the time a'nt good enough. The range that you KNOW that you can hit the lungs 9 out of 10 times is more like it and you'll have to decide that on your own, BASED ON YOUR OWN RANGE EXPERIENCES.

Here's the thing, experiment w/loads, find what shoots in your gun, just because your bullet has the energy for a 175 yard shot, doesn't mean that you can hit the broad side of a barn, much less of an elk w/that load. If you & your gun can deliver the lead, 200 yards is not out of the question IMO.

Now, you'll notice that I'm the ONLY person that responded to you w/that opinion and that about 300 people are fixing to answer saying that I don't know a hill of beans.
 
I'd have to agree with stinky on this one. The energy is ample enough to kill an elk at 200 yds. The problem is that 95+% of the shooters out there during huntin' season with muzzleloaders won't have the right load worked up nor the skills to make a good shot consistantly in the kill zone at that range especially with open sights.

You can't argue with a chrony & ballistic tables.

If you can't hit a paper plate or milk jug at a couple hundred yards every time, forget it.
 
stinky: Let them tell you that. You do know your beans, and I totally agree with what you said.
 
For what it's worth I also shoot a 50 cal rem 700. I shoot a 235 grain bullet with 130 grains of pyrodex pellets. I shot my elk at 155 yards. The first shot went through the front shoulder and top of the heart lodging against the skin on the other side. The bull walked about ten yards and I shot him through both lungs. He went five steps and fell over dead. The gun had more than enough energy to kill cleanly.
 
DonV: I want to enter into this conversation one more time with this thought: pick your bullet first and then put together the bullet/powder combination that makes that bullet perform the way you want it to. Don't pick the powder load first, and then try to make the bullet perform.
 
Can I make the assumption that Don is going to be able to use a scope where he hunts? There might be 1 person in 100 that could shoot a blackpowder well enough past about 100-120 yards with an open or peep sight, but I am not one of them, and I don't know many of them. Personally I feel confident out to 100 yards at the range using a peep site, which means that I limit my shots in the field to 80 yards.

Please tell me you are not trying to make a 150-175 yard shot on an elk with an open/peep sight. If you and Bill Hickock are in the same class, have at it, otherwise I wouldn't do it.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I took a 6 point bull 2 years back at 138 yards with a peep. Shooting a 50cl knight. Lung then shoulder, dropped like a rock. 4 point buck last year at 135, again down on the ground before the smoke cleared. Cow at 120, fell over after 10 steps - all 100gr PP 340? Hornady. On each shot I had a dead rest with time to squeeeeez. My point - more people are shooting better at longer ranges when they take the time to work up loads and shoot. Add a range finder to know the distance, get a bipod and you can shoot well at 150 even with a peep.
 
I'm willing to take some heat I shoot out to 200 pretty regular If a great buck came out at 200 I'm going to have to take my best shot and try and put a tag on him, I just got back from Utah a couple of weeks ago and I shot one(1 shot) there at 184 yds he traveled about 55yds, I would love to have all the deer I shoot at be close but that not going to happen so I will just do the best I can.I do have meat in the freezer and that is a +.
 
Gator: Remember me telling you that the "muzzleloader Gods" are going to get you if you keep shooting at that yardage? They will.
 
About 2 years ago in AZ I shot a bull elk in a canyon and the closest that I could get was 150 yards I know because I had a range finder. Well I was shooting my old reliable CVA inline that is about 7 years old, I was shooting 250 grain T/C bullets with a 100 grains of powder. Well I shot this bull in its bed it was quartering away from me and I aimed for his last rib the bullet cut the top of the heart and lodged in its shoulder, it just jumped up ran 20 yards and stood there then it reared up on its hind legs kicking its front legs and fell over backwards dead as a door nail. I dont think I would shoot anything over 150 yards with this setup. Maybe 175 if I put 150 grains but no more you loose to much energy. Just my 2 cents
 
You guys must be direct descendents of Wild Bill. Again, I won't say it shouldn't/can't be done to shoot consistently at those ranges, but you have to be a natural that shoots all the time to do it consistently. I am with Bluelk: I think the blackpowder gods will catch up to most that try it. Hope that those that wound and lose one at that range don't sleep too well for awhile. I have also heard several people say that they "missed" one at those ranges. Wonder if they really did. Have you guys who have taken game at that range ever "missed"?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Not yet, that was my first Buck with a ML, I shoot about 3 times a week for the last 4 months, I have been shooting alot out to 200 and I do shoot alot better with a scope even if it just a 1x. Ordered a peep for my Mk-85 the other day, will put it on after this season.
 
hunter24: Think about what you just said. 150 grains isn't going to do it. Your bullet is too light in my opinion, and secondly you don't need to be shooting 150 grains of powder out of that old CVA. It ain't built for it. Go to a heavier bullet in the range of 348 grains, go to the range, sight the rifle in for 3" above the bull at 100 yards.
 
Well blueelk I still have the owners manual and it tells me that Iam fine with 150 grains, you tell me my bullet is to light how so I blew right through a bull the year after at 115 yards double lunged him and broke 2 ribs. To me that is proof enough. It works for me, but its just my 2 cents
 
bluelk,
I dont know if you have seen it or not but in the November issue of the NRA's American hunter is a several page article about shooting long range with muzzle loaders.
I dont know much about muzzle loaders myself, though I have learned quite a bit from your posts, but the article left me with the impression that they feel 200 even 300 yard shots are reasonable.
Course I could just be jaded and be reading too much into the article.
Thanks
Coues
 
From what I have seen bullet performance at 150 yards (+ or - 20) is outstanding. Pushing a 300gr to 340gr sabot and 100gr of PP will produce a full mushroom, and will punch through an elk's shoulder. Most are recovered under the hide on the other side. I have tried to work up a load using up to 150 gr PP - can't seem to keep my groups so I backed off the load.

Have I ever missed - sure - 2 6X6 elk both under 100 yards, and shooting free hand. Can't blame that on the gun, or the peep. A few years back I passed a very nice 6X6 bull as he trotted past me at 70 yards because I only had a free hand shot and did not feel good about taking it. I would have taken the shot at 150 yards with a solid rest on a standing bull.
 
I also shoot a rem. 700 50 cal, and this year switched over to triple 777 power, my gun is only recomended for 100 grains of power, which means just that don't overload it to far, I have played with the sabots, round bals and the differeent conicals out there and have got my best preformance withe the buf, 385 pre-lubed bullet.
its not the speed, but the impact/ energy that kills.
drop a volley ball on you foot, next drop a brick in the same foot. da, do you get the difference. next throw the ball, then the brick, which went further.
the point is your load needs to be worked up or down for the projectile you shoot.
I woun't have a problem shooting 150 yds, when i know i can hit that distance consistantly. and am delivering a hammer at its end.
I hunt Colorado, and you have heard the regs, there on scopes, power, and bullets.
I will make one sugestion try the new triple 777 power and it does make a difference in the overall preformance.
Good hunting and be safe.
 
coues: It is articles just like this that are causing so much havoc with the Game and Fish Commissions all over the country. It is articles just like this that are causing hunters who are not capable of hitting a kill zone at those yardages to go out and try it and end of causing needless suffering of animals who deserve to be dispatched quickly and humanely.

This is a real hot button with me, and I will always come out against these kinds of comments and articles. This is muzzleloading: not centerfire.

Mechanically these things MIGHT work, but realistically 99% of the hunters are not capable of hitting a 6" kill zone on a deer at those yardages, nor a 12" kill zone on an elk at those same yardages. And as long as all of us deal in the realm of reality, rather that hyperbole, we'll all be a lot better off.
 

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