Mr. Anti-public land, Mike Lee, needs to go

Oneye

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Before Mike Lee first became our Senator, I remember him stating to many people asking as he ran, that he would only do 2 terms, and call it quits. Aside from the fact he lied about that, spends most his time concerned about things that aren't a benefit to Utah, and changing in a major way to cater to the extremists in his party, he has been one of the most anti-public land representatives in the entire nation. Trying to steal our American public lands, and make them vulnerable to sale. The man is as anti-conservation, and anti-public lands as it gets, and now, in 2022, it's time to get rid of him.

Now, admittedly Lee's 2 Republican primary challengers and I don't agree on some things, but we do agree Utah can do and be better than Mike Lee. The two main challengers are Becky Edwards and Ally Isom. Both reasonable, and more moderate voices for the state. I know not all decisions in life are based off public lands so here's the two primary challengers so those who want can't overview their campaigns. I have emailed both of them to get a more firm grasp on where they stand in regards to the transfer or sale of public lands in the state, I will post it here once I get a response.

Becky Edwards

Ally Isom

The bottom line, is this is a real chance to get one of the most anti-conservation/anti-public land legislators in the country out of the United States Senate. If you are not a registered Republican, register as a Republican by March 2022 to vote in the Republican Primary. You can always switch back after if you are unaffiliated, independent etc

Here's a sampling of Mike Lee over his time in congress in relation to public lands.



Disposal of public lands Act he introduced:

Land and Water conservation fund permanent reauthorization act:
Mike Lee is one of 8 Senators to vote against this very bipartisan, public land friendly, wildlife habitat protection bill. Senator Romney voted in favor.

By the way this bill was endorsed by groups like Mule Deer Foundation, Turkey Federation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and a whole slew of other sportsman groups. Lee voted against it.


The man tells his plans for public lands himself that he would like to use/sale your public lands for development and for funding:


This is a sampling of his attacks there's plenty more, his motive is quite clear however, and he is one of the greatest threats to public lands in the United States congress. It's time to get Mike Lee gone next June.
 
I'm not here to argue. I'm posting this as an informative approach that Mike Lee is one of the most anti-public land people in America. He has no respect for them. He has two very reasonable options that are primary-ing him next spring and I would hope that we can get a better voice for our state and public lands in congress than Mike Lee.
 
Thanks @Oneye, I look forward to learning more about Isom and Edwards and their views. If anybody has info on their public land bona fides, I'd love to see it.
 
The one who really needs to go is that Deuce Mitt Romney.
Mitt has actually been far better on public lands than Lee and actually introduced legislation this year to help fix fire policy. Some of you just don’t like Mitt because he doesn’t cower to the dude you’re a fan of. Mitt does a fine job, Lee is a hack, especially on public lands.
 
Mitt has actually been far better on public lands than Lee and actually introduced legislation this year to help fix fire policy. Some of you just don’t like Mitt because he doesn’t cower to the dude you’re a fan of. Mitt does a fine job, Lee is a hack, especially on public lands.
No, mitt is just a better politician and opportunist.
 
Just not true at all, it’s actually quite the opposite of the two of them. But this thread is about public lands.

Yeah, it really is true.

Don't need to be a "Utahn" to pay attention to what's going on in the national scene. It wasn't until quite recently that mitt was an established UT politician.

Don't think for a second that romney would change his stance on public lands if it meant something in exchange...
 
Yeah, it really is true.

Don't need to be a "Utahn" to pay attention to what's going on in the national scene. It wasn't until quite recently that mitt was an established UT politician.

Don't think for a second that romney would change his stance on public lands if it meant something in exchange...
Yeah, he clearly shows he follows the pack and doesn't vote his conscience against his own political peril. Liz Cheney is the same way, that's why they're rockstars among their party.

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Yeah, it really is true.

Don't need to be a "Utahn" to pay attention to what's going on in the national scene. It wasn't until quite recently that mitt was an established UT politician.

Don't think for a second that romney would change his stance on public lands if it meant something in exchange...
So laughable. The man has been booed by his own party. The truth is many of you hate that he DID NOT sale his soul to his political party. Lee on the other hand, well he’d liken a popular politician to Jesus if it meant he could grasp a little power lol. Anyway, have a nice day.
 
So laughable. The man has been booed by his own party. The truth is many of you hate that he DID NOT sale his soul to his political party. Lee on the other hand, well he’d liken a popular politician to Jesus if it meant he could grasp a little power lol. Anyway, have a nice day.

Hardly a talking point. A better politician and opportunist means he plays the game better for his own purpose and not making better policy.

You have an even nicer day there scooter...
 
I will continue to support Mike Lee, and expect many Utahn's will as well. There is no disputing his conservative, fiscally responsible voting record. While I do not agree with him 100% on all issues, I will accept 95% and realize he is the best candidate for Utah values.
I know very little about the two challengers, but telling me how they are more moderate is not much of a reference.

Romney is a disgrace to the state of Utah. I doubt he will even run again when the time comes, but he is the ultimate swamp creature, and those vile creatures die slowly.
Bill
 
It is amazing how leftists demand conservatives need to elect more moderate candidates.
Our public lands are pretty secure.
“Leftists” lol. PS both the people running against him are quite conservative, and don’t have the horrible rap sheet Lee has in regards to public lands. I’m also a registered Republican and have been since being fo voting age.
 
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I will continue to support Mike Lee, and expect many Utahn's will as well. There is no disputing his conservative, fiscally responsible voting record. While I do not agree with him 100% on all issues, I will accept 95% and realize he is the best candidate for Utah values.
I know very little about the two challengers, but telling me how they are more moderate is not much of a reference.

Romney is a disgrace to the state of Utah. I doubt he will even run again when the time comes, but he is the ultimate swamp creature, and those vile creatures die slowly.
Bill
Romney in 2016: “Trump is an abhorrent person”
Romney in 2020: “Trump is abhorrent person”

Lee in 2016: “Trump is abhorrent person who should step out of the race and give the nomination to Pence”
Lee in 2020: “Trump is captain Moroni”

idk seems like one guy was pretty consistent in what he said, and it’s the other guy who sold his soul. Y’all just sold your soul to a horrible human right along with him. This is getting way off into the weeds at this point, but pretending Mitt is who changed is laughable. Too many sold their souls to one dude, don’t be mad not everyone will.

Both of these other candidates are also conservatives, but don’t have the horrible public land attacks reputation Lee does.

Sometimes the party isn’t right man. Something I vehemently disagree with Republicans on as well (even though a lot of them are starting to come around and acknowledge the science behind it as well) is climate change, which absolutely impacts us as sportsman as well. I’m not saying the right answers to the issue are being proposed but it’s another thing where there is clear evidence it’s happening, and that we also are a contributor to it, and pretending it’s not is really something as we witness record breaking heat and drought in this state. Watching the Great Salt Lake disappear. Watching Nevada fish and gave literally have to helicopter in water to keep bighorn sheep alive. Like it’s okay to not hold so tightly to party lines at times, it’s actually extremely stupid to do so. The extremes of both parties are a problem, and Lee is absolutely one of those extremes especially on public lands. What’s wild is people like yourself say Mitt is a disgrace while both he and Lee vote the same way like 95% of the time. Admit that your mad Mitt won’t cower to the dude you apparently think is God himself and at least be honest about it. Because those twos votes aren’t a lot different, slightly different on public land issues, but not very different at all overall.
 
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Hardly a talking point. A better politician and opportunist means he plays the game better for his own purpose and not making better policy.

You have an even nicer day there scooter...
Again, see my post above, there’s been nothing advantageous to Mitt in standing up for the right things. His voting record speaks for itself and is clearly very conservative, it’s the fact he never did and never will bow down to one of the most divisive, terrible people to hold the office and that’s many of your issues with him, because it’s certainly not his voting record, you have no argument in regards to that. In 2016 he said how he felt, and it wasn’t him who changed, it was the party, a party I’ve been a member of since I was old enough to vote, and yeah I’ve very often thought about changing my registration to independent a lot over the past few years.
 
You have 100% not helped the other two candidate's with this thread.

I visited both of the links you provided and got a bad vibe off of both. Your defense of Mitt is a clear indicator that myself and you do not align on our political beliefs, and then your spill about climate change confirmed it. And Mitt was sure buddy buddy with Trump on the lead up to his vote in 2018. Don't act like Sh!t Mitt hasn't flip flopped on Trump along the way he is a "dog face pony soldier" if there ever was one.

Good day sir.
 
Sometimes the party isn’t right man. Something I vehemently disagree with Republicans on as well (even though a lot of them are starting to come around and acknowledge the science behind it as well) is climate change, which absolutely impacts us as sportsman as well. .

Which science is that? Bet I can show you the work many have done in geophysics and paleo-climate studies that speak to a cataclysmic event that occured a few thousand years ago and the "climate change" we are witnessing is a continuation of that event achieving equilibrium again.

Has nothing to do with the internal combustion engine...
 
You have 100% not helped the other two candidate's with this thread.

I visited both of the links you provided and got a bad vibe off of both. Your defense of Mitt is a clear indicator that myself and you do not align on our political beliefs, and then your spill about climate change confirmed it. And Mitt was sure buddy buddy with Trump on the lead up to his vote in 2018. Don't act like Sh!t Mitt hasn't flip flopped on Trump along the way he is a "dog face pony soldier" if there ever was one.

Good day sir.
Lol. I don’t speak for the other two candidates. Some of you have your mind made up already and you show it. As for Mitt? Yeah you mean just like Trump who endorsed him in 2018? Mitt made no bones about how he felt and stayed who he was. You’re mad he didn’t change. Lee did a complete 180 in 4 years. He literally advocated for taking the nomination away from the dude in 2016, and you wanna talk about flip flopping. As for climate change? Look out your front door, it’s beginning to hit you in the face. I’m glad many Republicans are beginning to acknowledge it’s an issue (even folks like Lindsey Graham are). I can guarantee you you’ve never looked at a scientific study on the issue in your life, I have, and although you shouldn’t need one to look out your front door. We actually probably agree on a ton of issues, you just base things off rhetoric and not actual policy or votes placed. AGAIN Mitt and Lee have voted the same like 95% of the time. Pretending they are different is such asinine garbage. One just doesn’t cower to kiss one dudes ass and that’s your problem with him.
 
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Which science is that? Bet I can show you the work many have done in geophysics and paleo-climate studies that speak to a cataclysmic event that occured a few thousand years ago and the "climate change" we are witnessing is a continuation of that event achieving equilibrium again.

Has nothing to do with the internal combustion engine...
Who are these folks? Where did they do to school? What universities are they currently teaching at? Are they peer reviewed? What scientific journals have they been published in? Have they received any Nobel Prizes? Legitimate and sincere questions friend.
 
Which science is that? Bet I can show you the work many have done in geophysics and paleo-climate studies that speak to a cataclysmic event that occured a few thousand years ago and the "climate change" we are witnessing is a continuation of that event achieving equilibrium again.

Has nothing to do with the internal combustion engine...
99.99% of scientists will tell you you are wrong. Finding the one who is politically or financially motivated to deny it well, you’ll always find those people. The science it’s quite obvious, and you can get off Facebook news and look out your front door if you’d like proof. As the GSL, Lake Powell, Lake Mead all begin to dry up and we experience record breaking drought and heat, you just keep denying it for your political comfort friend.
 
Who are these folks? Where did they do to school? What universities are they currently teaching at? Are they peer reviewed? What scientific journals have they been published in? Have they received any Nobel Prizes? Legitimate and sincere questions friend.
They’re from Facebook articles he’s clicked on DAMMIT!!!
 
Who are these folks? Where did they do to school? What universities are they currently teaching at? Are they peer reviewed? What scientific journals have they been published in? Have they received any Nobel Prizes? Legitimate and sincere questions friend.
It’s funny, people find the .01% of “scientists” that agree with their political position and they find comfort in acting like the 99.99% are wrong and the .01% are right as if that’s some defense of their position on the subject. As I said, as we get hotter and drier, Utah will be one of the worst places to be as it happens. Reservoirs are disappearing, the Great Salt Lake continues to dry up, but by all means, hang on to that .01% while reality smacks you in the face but you try to ignore it and have never looked at most the evidence that exists. Like I mentioned, I don’t think reasonable or realistic changes have been proposed, but denying or ignoring it happening is flat earth level BS at this point.
 
Who are these folks? Where did they do to school? What universities are they currently teaching at? Are they peer reviewed? What scientific journals have they been published in? Have they received any Nobel Prizes? Legitimate and sincere questions friend.

All are Ph.D's. One did his dissertation on plate tectonics and modeled the breakup of the continents to their current locations using finite elemental analysis. Yes, they are peer reviewed. Nobel prizes are irrelevant.

Then there is the group of "scientists" that disagree to fit the narrative.

Do your own research. I'm not going to feed you the answers...
 
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They’re from Facebook articles he’s clicked on DAMMIT!!!
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

Did you go recruit this guy from that other forum for support...?

Keep in mind, all the 99.99% of these scientists support the conventional narrative backed by politicians who will tell you hippy energy is the only thing that will save us all.

Pretty obvious you don't work in an industry where those who can do, and those who can't complain about Lee...
 
It’s funny, people find the .01% of “scientists” that agree with their political position and they find comfort in acting like the 99.99% are wrong and the .01% are right as if that’s some defense of their position on the subject. As I said, as we get hotter and drier, Utah will be one of the worst places to be as it happens. Reservoirs are disappearing, the Great Salt Lake continues to dry up, but by all means, hang on to that .01% while reality smacks you in the face but you try to ignore it and have never looked at most the evidence that exists. Like I mentioned, I don’t think reasonable or realistic changes have been proposed, but denying or ignoring it happening is flat earth level BS at this point.

You two geniuses need to ask yourself, just what in the hell is an inland sea doing so far inland with vast amounts of fresh water around? Maybe massive flooding when the continents broke up, the remaining is puddled up in a low spot and is taking thousands of years to evaporate? The changed landscape around Mt. St. Helens should speak volumes for itself.

Powell and Mead is more of a function from CA stupidity in policy than anything else. Most of the the breadbasket of the USA a millennia ago was more subtopic than now.
 


I'm no fan of Romney.

But.....


Don't mention "the swamp" then continue to vote for anyone after 2 terms. Otherwise, you are voting for "the swamp".

Don't mention spending, then vote a a guy who was from "the tea party", but hasn't done jack on spending.

DONT HUNT DEER OR ELK, on public ground, then vote for a guy who 100% supports ending that.

Don't talk about "principles", Oneye quotes from Lee on Trump show he has none.


Ask a simple question. Do I hunt, fish, camp, hike, ride, on public land. Does Mike Lee support that?

What matters more to YOU? Time with YOUR family on public land, or your Senator talking on FOX.
 
You two geniuses need to ask yourself, just what in the hell is an inland sea doing so far inland with vast amounts of fresh water around? Maybe massive flooding when the continents broke up, the remaining is puddled up in a low spot and is taking thousands of years to evaporate?
In what world is a shallow salty lake within "The Great Basin" (where water can't flow out due to topography) proof that the activity of humans doesn't affect climate? I'm pretty sure nobody is arguing against tectonic shift and prehistoric Ice Ages, but it says nothing about this discussion. Heck, Mike Lee probably believes the earth is only 6,000 years old anyway

I'm agnostic on climate change as I don't need a climate scientist to want to protect Earth from our pollution, I feel it's our duty regardless of the stated purpose; but the above line of thinking is... well, ?
 
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I'm not sure why this entire thread isn't in the political forum, where people can spout off about their crazy and often misguided ideas with impunity. Little gets solved or even ideas promoted in these discussions, but apparently it is an outlet for some to vent.

I think I'll prepare my gear for the upcoming hunts - a far more productive and satisfying task.

Bill
 
I'm not sure why this entire thread isn't in the political forum, where people can spout off about their crazy and often misguided ideas with impunity. Little gets solved or even ideas promoted in these discussions, but apparently it is an outlet for some to vent.

I think I'll prepare my gear for the upcoming hunts - a far more productive and satisfying task.

Bill
Bill, you are literally one of the folks who most took this thread off it’s intended path, and because you’re a moderator I responded according.
 


I'm no fan of Romney.

But.....


Don't mention "the swamp" then continue to vote for anyone after 2 terms. Otherwise, you are voting for "the swamp".

Don't mention spending, then vote a a guy who was from "the tea party", but hasn't done jack on spending.

DONT HUNT DEER OR ELK, on public ground, then vote for a guy who 100% supports ending that.

Don't talk about "principles", Oneye quotes from Lee on Trump show he has none.


Ask a simple question. Do I hunt, fish, camp, hike, ride, on public land. Does Mike Lee support that?

What matters more to YOU? Time with YOUR family on public land, or your Senator talking on FOX.
They care more about Mike Lee going on Fox News and spouting his rhetoric. Mike Lee has been a Senator for 11 years at this point lol. But you’re right they’re worried about the swamp. Everything we’ve both said about him is true, but the fact people have let their politics become more important than even religion to them won’t let them see through that.

That simple question you asked they can’t answer honestly because the true answer is no. No. Mike Lee does not support public lands or any of the things we love to do on them and actually has fought hard to end the way we enjoy them. But darn Mitt didn’t kiss Trumps ass, and Mike Lee went from “Trump is the a horrible human being” to “he’s captain Moroni” so yup Mike Lee must be the real deal! If you can’t see who the actual fake, political swamp creature is, who would sale their soul for a little political gain, idk what to tell y’all.
 
You two geniuses need to ask yourself, just what in the hell is an inland sea doing so far inland with vast amounts of fresh water around? Maybe massive flooding when the continents broke up, the remaining is puddled up in a low spot and is taking thousands of years to evaporate? The changed landscape around Mt. St. Helens should speak volumes for itself.

Powell and Mead is more of a function from CA stupidity in policy than anything else. Most of the the breadbasket of the USA a millennia ago was more subtopic than now.
That last paragraph is really really something lol. No. They’re drying up because we are hotter, drier, and have much less snow in the winters than ever before.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

Did you go recruit this guy from that other forum for support...?

Keep in mind, all the 99.99% of these scientists support the conventional narrative backed by politicians who will tell you hippy energy is the only thing that will save us all.

Pretty obvious you don't work in an industry where those who can do, and those who can't complain about Lee...
Actually no they don’t. The rest of the discussion among them is quite diverse. But 99.99% of scientists do believe climate change is a real issue and we are a contributing cause. But you go ahead and believe that .01% and all those politicians out there who tell you it’s not real, because politicians are so much smarter and honest than scientists and pollution is a great thing and we need more of it! Do you realize how moronic that sounds?
 
Bill, you are literally one of the folks who most took this thread off it’s intended path, and because you’re a moderator I responded according.
Because lamapacker stated his support for Lee, that means he took this thread off the intended path.
Again if we all don't agree with you so called moderates that means we are wrong.
 
Because lamapacker stated his support for Lee, that means he took this thread off the intended path.
Again if we all don't agree with you so called moderates that means we are wrong.
You do realize you branded people here as "leftists" before attempting now to play the martyr, right?

And @llamapacker didn't just say he supported Lee, he called Romney a "swamp creature" and said they're "vile" and "die slowly." Hardly a post becoming of a Moderator.

It would sure be nice if people could have a discussion without the exaggerated hyperbole and juvenile name calling.

PS. If you're upset that people that disagree with you therefore think your position is wrong, does that mean that you're somehow different and think that the "so called moderates" are therefore right? Or do you think that they're just a wrong as they think you are?

Your last sentence implies that you think it's not okay for somebody to think your beliefs are wrong. That means that you think their beliefs are right, or you're calling yourself a hypocrite.

It's okay to think somebody else has an incorrect position. It's not okay to assign somebody as a "leftist" or a "so called" moderate just because they don't share your brand of conservatism.

Nothing stood out to me from @Oneye as name calling or an attack, but if he did he should refrain as well. There's plenty to talk about on issues without the extraneous BS.
 
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Oneye, your the one who made this about Mike Lee, I don't agree with his stance on public lands, show me why the other two are better, you said yourself you don't know if they will be.

Here's an idea instead of coming on and bashing Lee how bout you just promote the other two candidates.

Like I said, I visited their campaign pages and wasn't really impressed, got way to much of a mitt vibe off of both.(which is apparently why you love them) Yes I know, I know "mitt and Lee vote the same 95% of the time" blah blah blah well that 5% matters. Trump was great for this country, I almost didn't vote for him in 2016, almost threw my vote away to Evan mcnutters. (God I'm glad that didn't catch on.) But fact of the matter Trump won me over whole heartedly, I don't fault Lee for his stance on Trump in 2016 because I was right there with him, and I gladly and enthusiastically voted for the man in 2020. Still believe there was definitely some shenanigans to get Ol'Joe into office, you may not think so znd that's your pergrogative.

I feel Mitt violated his oath with his votes to impeach Trump, he let his personal dis-like of the man cloud his judgment and that is unacceptable.

Neither Trump or Lee is perfect, I never even said I was supporting Lee, probably will but my mind could be changed with the proper candidate running against him... so instead of attacking Lee lift up the other two, like I said you haven't helped them in this thread, hell you haven't even mentioned there names since the initial post.

But keep on defaming us calling us stupid that strategy is working wonders. ?
 
I'm not sure why this entire thread isn't in the political forum, where people can spout off about their crazy and often misguided ideas with impunity. Little gets solved or even ideas promoted in these discussions, but apparently it is an outlet for some to vent.

I think I'll prepare my gear for the upcoming hunts - a far more productive and satisfying task.

Bill

Are your upcoming hunts on public land?
 
Oneye, your the one who made this about Mike Lee, I don't agree with his stance on public lands, show me why the other two are better, you said yourself you don't know if they will be.

Here's an idea instead of coming on and bashing Lee how bout you just promote the other two candidates.

Like I said, I visited their campaign pages and wasn't really impressed, got way to much of a mitt vibe off of both.(which is apparently why you love them) Yes I know, I know "mitt and Lee vote the same 95% of the time" blah blah blah well that 5% matters. Trump was great for this country, I almost didn't vote for him in 2016, almost threw my vote away to Evan mcnutters. (God I'm glad that didn't catch on.) But fact of the matter Trump won me over whole heartedly, I don't fault Lee for his stance on Trump in 2016 because I was right there with him, and I gladly and enthusiastically voted for the man in 2020. Still believe there was definitely some shenanigans to get Ol'Joe into office, you may not think so znd that's your pergrogative.

I feel Mitt violated his oath with his votes to impeach Trump, he let his personal dis-like of the man cloud his judgment and that is unacceptable.

Neither Trump or Lee is perfect, I never even said I was supporting Lee, probably will but my mind could be changed with the proper candidate running against him... so instead of attacking Lee lift up the other two, like I said you haven't helped them in this thread, hell you haven't even mentioned there names since the initial post.

But keep on defaming us calling us stupid that strategy is working wonders. ?


Do you hunt public land?

Lee is 100% in his voting to stop that.

Your comments show how well his "Utah values" talking point works. He's done NOTHING on any of those values, while he assaults the one that you must care about, you are on a hunting forum.

Don't forget, Trump, who you like, supported GAOA. He supported opening refuges.

Lee, opposed that.

No land, no hunting. No land, no fishing. No land no camping.

NO LAND, NO UTAH VALUES.

Not sure how a random vote on some continuing resolution that bumps Lee "conservative score" up is nearly as valuable as that.
 
Do you hunt public land?

Lee is 100% in his voting to stop that.
Not just in his votes. He's introduced bills to seize all federal public lands, to create a "new" Homestead Act so federal land can be claimed and privatized by corporations and individuals, and a bill to build affordable housing on public land.

Luckily, he's really, really unsuccessful.

He says he supports freedom and the family, but apparently he's against the freedom for my family to camp and hunt in the National Forest.

He'll never get my vote. I'd vote for my dining table before I voted for somebody that wanted to take my land.
 
Not just in his votes. He's introduced bills to seize all federal public lands, to create a "new" Homestead Act so federal land can be claimed and privatized by corporations and individuals, and a bill to build affordable housing on public land.

Luckily, he's really, really unsuccessful.

He says he supports freedom and the family, but apparently he's against the freedom for my family to camp and hunt in the National Forest.

He'll never get my vote. I'd vote for my dining table before I voted for somebody that wanted to take my land.
Your land?

I'm in agreement with you generally. But it isn't your land, nor mine. It's the property of the American taxpayers, and as such we need to recognize that we may(aren't) not be in the majority when it comes to what we believe is the best use for some of this land. Which is why it's important to make good arguments as to why it's in the best interest of wildlife/environment. Not I want to hunt there or me me me arguments. Those don't win the support we'll need long term from people who don't hunt or recreate on federal lands.
 
That last paragraph is really really something lol. No. They’re drying up because we are hotter, drier, and have much less snow in the winters than ever before.

Actually no they don’t. The rest of the discussion among them is quite diverse. But 99.99% of scientists do believe climate change is a real issue and we are a contributing cause. But you go ahead and believe that .01% and all those politicians out there who tell you it’s not real, because politicians are so much smarter and honest than scientists and pollution is a great thing and we need more of it! Do you realize how moronic that sounds?

You derailed your own thread when you piped off about climate change. Who is saying we need more pollution? Nobody. What they are saying is we need to advance technology to have a more balanced portfolio of energy and not cancel out one over the other. The internal combustion engine isn't going to disappear overnight.

The politicians side with the "99.99%" and the other 0.01% have compelling arguments stating otherwise. There are two schools of thought on this, old earth and young earth. Look it up, and then ask yourself why these two approaches instead of wasting your time spouting off about Lee.

The problem with your argument is that it's laced with emotion and reactionary rhetoric. When a person asks someone like you to explain the other phenomena in the past that caused a change in climate, aka "climate change", you simply can't. Because there isn't anyone to blame.

I'll start.

What caused the "little ice age" to occur in the 15th to 17th centuries"?

Why in the world would an ancient, and somewhat highly advanced civilization, create a mass network of roads and structures in the greater Chaco Canyon area, only to suddenly disappear and abandon it? Several generations of work went into that. Humans don't do anything if there is not an advantage for wellbeing of some sort, so why?

Please explain why the inhabitants of Mesa Verde suddenly left.

Explain why millions of people live in such a dry and arid climate like they do in the Middle East and have for centuries. Only a idiot would live in a desert with scarce resources, yet they've thrived. How? Why? Bear in mind, that region once was fertile and lush.

You can't explain any of that, because you have no substance to your argument except regurgitating what other talking heads tell you.

CA has grossly mismanaged its water resources. Plain and simple. "We" have been hot before with drought conditions. Just as an example, the SW was in such a condition in 2004-2005 and the 99.99% experts said it would take 10 years of above average snowpack to recover. It happened in one winter. Explain that. You can't.

Guess what, orbital decay of our solar system is a real thing. That plays into it. Good luck stopping that.

Galileo was a heretic once as well, and looks like he must still be wrong according to people like you...
 
Do you hunt public land?

Lee is 100% in his voting to stop that.

Your comments show how well his "Utah values" talking point works. He's done NOTHING on any of those values, while he assaults the one that you must care about, you are on a hunting forum.

Don't forget, Trump, who you like, supported GAOA. He supported opening refuges.

Lee, opposed that.

No land, no hunting. No land, no fishing. No land no camping.

NO LAND, NO UTAH VALUES.

Not sure how a random vote on some continuing resolution that bumps Lee "conservative score" up is nearly as valuable as that.
And he's had absolutely no effect on your public lands, again point me to some one better. We all know his position on this, so who is better? And I want an actual position they have on the subject, no position is worse then Lee's at least we know where he stands.

Do the two "moderates" opposing him have a position?

I will say it again, shut up about Lee, tell me who is better. Until then I will voice my opposition to him on the things I disagree with, and support him on the things I agree with.
 
Your land?

I'm in agreement with you generally. But it isn't your land, nor mine. It's the property of the American taxpayers, and as such we need to recognize that we may(aren't) not be in the majority when it comes to what we believe is the best use for some of this land. Which is why it's important to make good arguments as to why it's in the best interest of wildlife/environment. Not I want to hunt there or me me me arguments. Those don't win the support we'll need long term from people who don't hunt or recreate on federal lands.
Yes, it is my land and it's your land too. It also belongs to my children and my grandchildren who are not yet born. We've granted the federal government the right to manage public land on our behalf and to be held in trust for future generations.

PS. The majority of Americans don't want our forests clear-cut, strip-mined, drilled, or turned into resorts and ranchettes. That desire is reserved for only the furthest extreme individuals, like Mike Lee and Ted Cruz.
 
And he's had absolutely no effect on your public lands, again point me to some one better. We all know his position on this, so who is better? And I want an actual position they have on the subject, no position is worse then Lee's at least we know where he stands.

Do the two "moderates" opposing him have a position?

I will say it again, shut up about Lee, tell me who is better. Until then I will voice my opposition to him on the things I disagree with, and support him on the things I agree with.

Really?

Have you seen any closed roads or areas? Closed because of the 10's of millions in maintenance backlogs as a direct result of lack the funding.

Ever met a FS employee. Ask them what happens when their budget is exhausted by fire fighting? Changed recently, and OPPOSED by Lee.

Who's better? In Utah, Romney. And I detest Romney. But he's the superior senator in this state on land.
 
Your land?

I'm in agreement with you generally. But it isn't your land, nor mine. It's the property of the American taxpayers, and as such we need to recognize that we may(aren't) not be in the majority when it comes to what we believe is the best use for some of this land. Which is why it's important to make good arguments as to why it's in the best interest of wildlife/environment. Not I want to hunt there or me me me arguments. Those don't win the support we'll need long term from people who don't hunt or recreate on federal lands.


Did you go outside last year?

Tags sold out in record time. Campgrounds full, fishing tackle was sold out.

Kinda silly to pretend it's only hunters.

But further, if you aren't a Repub, how do you win "hearts and minds", if guys like Lee are constantly try to force land sold?
 
Did you go outside last year?

Tags sold out in record time. Campgrounds full, fishing tackle was sold out.

Kinda silly to pretend it's only hunters.

But further, if you aren't a Repub, how do you win "hearts and minds", if guys like Lee are constantly try to force land sold?
I hope you realize most of the people in this country live east of the Mississippi, and never have and never will use public lands for the purposes the people on this forum desire.

Apathy is the friend and the enemy. You have to do a better job of convincing people who really don't care than Mike Lee's of the world.
 
I hope you realize most of the people in this country live east of the Mississippi, and never have and never will use public lands for the purposes the people on this forum desire.

Apathy is the friend and the enemy. You have to do a better job of convincing people who really don't care than Mike Lee's of the world.


I actually don't.

The big push for "transfer" is centered in Utah, with cancer in western states.
 
I hope you realize most of the people in this country live east of the Mississippi, and never have and never will use public lands for the purposes the people on this forum desire.

Apathy is the friend and the enemy. You have to do a better job of convincing people who really don't care than Mike Lee's of the world.
Are you saying that because people back east can't hunt on public land in their states that it's okay if our public land is privatized too?

When I hear that states back east don't have public land, that's all the proof I need that is imperative public land stays in federal hands.

Are you aware that a full 30% OF ALL PRIVATE PROPERTY in the state of Utah was once state-owned and has since been sold to the highest bidder? That's the track record of state-owned land in Utah. It's irrefutable.

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around what your argument has to do with why people should vote for Mike Lee, who openly wants to abolish Forest Service and BLM land.
 
99.99% of scientists will tell you you are wrong. Finding the one who is politically or financially motivated to deny it well, you’ll always find those people. The science it’s quite obvious, and you can get off Facebook news and look out your front door if you’d like proof. As the GSL, Lake Powell, Lake Mead all begin to dry up and we experience record breaking drought and heat, you just keep denying it for your political comfort friend.
It's more about the West being in a dry cycle (drought) right now, more than anything else. Within the next ten years we will be in a wet cycle and everybody will be worried about us having too much water.
 
Well we've been in global warming for the last 30 or so years so they've been saying. They said by 2020 the glaciers in glacier national Park would be gone. They had signs that stated it and then they had to take them down, because they are in fact still there. One eye what are you going to say in 10 years from now when it's a super wet year. My heck the climate has been changing ever since the Earth was created. You don't think we've had worse dry spells than we've had right now? Come on now, global warming is a joke the climate is always going to change it can be dry as heck for 20 years and all of a sudden get wet for 50 years. Ice caps have been melting ever since the ice age. If they were growing you guys would be freaking out that they're growing. Why is Trump such a horrible person? Did he say something that offended you? Because all of his actions were America first and he turned this country into a thriving country. Like him or not he was the person for the job.
 
It's more about the West being in a dry cycle (drought) right now, more than anything else. Within the next ten years we will be in a wet cycle and everybody will be worried about us having too much water.
You might be right. That's part of the reason I remain noncommittal on climate change... I just don't know.

But it doesn't change my belief that we have a duty to protect Earth and leave her better for our heirs than when we were here. To act like a locust and take everything we can without due regard to those that come behind us just doesn't sit well with me.

I don't need to be a believer in climate change to be anti-pollution.
 
You might be right. That's part of the reason I remain noncommittal on climate change... I just don't know.

But it doesn't change my belief that we have a duty to protect Earth and leave her better for our heirs than when we were here. To act like a locust and take everything we can without due regard to those that come behind us just doesn't sit well with me.

I don't need to be a believer in climate change to be anti-pollution.
Well I think anyone would agree with that. Although not sure what you mean by anti-pollution. Does that mean not driving a car? Or does that mean not trashing the Earth throwing garbage and littering everywhere? Or does that mean not ever having a fire? These people that are so called Green want you to limit everything you do but they're fine to just carry along as usual. The vast vast majority are hypocrites.
 
Well we've been in global warming for the last 30 or so years so they've been saying. They said by 2020 the glaciers in glacier national Park would be gone. They had signs that stated it and then they had to take them down, because they are in fact still there. One eye what are you going to say in 10 years from now when it's a super wet year. My heck the climate has been changing ever since the Earth was created. You don't think we've had worse dry spells than we've had right now? Come on now, global warming is a joke the climate is always going to change it can be dry as heck for 20 years and all of a sudden get wet for 50 years. Ice caps have been melting ever since the ice age. If they were growing you guys would be freaking out that they're growing. Why is Trump such a horrible person? Did he say something that offended you? Because all of his actions were America first and he turned this country into a thriving country. Like him or not he was the person for the job.

The only reason the ice caps exist is because of a heating of the earth's oceans on a massive scale, and then a cooling causing a longterm period of precipitation in the form of rain and snow.

The young earth model demonstrates this when one large land mass broke up through rapid subduction through plate techtonics pushing massive amounts of magna up from the mantle. An old earth model prevents this phenomena. The 99.99% are old earth modlers.

Before this, there were no polar ice caps. Polar bears and penguins are two species that adapted to a new environment and will again.

The earth is still trying to reach it's point of equilibrium. The plates still move and earthquakes are the result of continents moving up and down much like when you push an ice cube down in a glass of water. The ice bobs up and down until it reaches its buoyant equilibrium point.
 
I just saw that Mike Lee introduced a bill that went into law that allows ATV use on certain trails inside capital reef national park. Keep up the good work Mr. Lee. Our public lands need more multi uses for all types of users.

Of course he did. The bill has zero to do with UTVs. It's solely to create a precident where state OHV law Trump's the Park Service.

It ain't nothing new, his type figured out they couldn't frontal assault public land, so now they chip at the edges. That's why it's just Capitol reef. If he "truly believed" UTV should be in parks, they would be welcomed IN ALL PARKS.

Here's the dirty little secret. His hope is that dudes will get off road. He hopes they will tear it up. He wants it destroyed, then he and his ilk can come along and demand the state take it over because the feds are incompetent and incapable. Once in the states hands, it's a lot easier to buy off part time state legislatures, than federal, and the ultimate goal gets accomplished.

He and his buddies already attempted this previously. For years they starved the forest service for $$, causing huge maintenance backlogs. Then campaigned about how horrible the FS was at maintaining parks claiming the state would do a much better job, thus "transfer" was necessary.

The guy wants to dispose of ALL public land. If you think he's creating laws that support it, add to increased usage, or enjoyment, YOUR WILLFULLY STUPID.
 
Hey hossblur, you and ole 1eye need to go have lunch sometime. You sure would have plenty to talk about.
 
Are you saying that because people back east can't hunt on public land in their states that it's okay if our public land is privatized too?

When I hear that states back east don't have public land, that's all the proof I need that is imperative public land stays in federal hands.

Are you aware that a full 30% OF ALL PRIVATE PROPERTY in the state of Utah was once state-owned and has since been sold to the highest bidder? That's the track record of state-owned land in Utah. It's irrefutable.

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around what your argument has to do with why people should vote for Mike Lee, who openly wants to abolish Forest Service and BLM land.
The land sold is called School Trust Land, maybe you should look into SITLA you might find out SITLA is not considered public property, the land is treated like private ownership. The false sense of SITLA being public property is the fact they allow pepole to use the land as such but they can and do lock up SITLA property and never let you or anyone else to enjoy the land.
 
Who are these folks? Where did they do to school? What universities are they currently teaching at? Are they peer reviewed? What scientific journals have they been published in? Have they received any Nobel Prizes? Legitimate and sincere questions friend.

Update for you, one eye, and the devil:

John Baumgardner, PhD - Geophysics
D. Russell Humphreys, PhD - Physics
Larry Vardimann, PhD - Atmospheric Physics
Steven A. Austin, PhD - Sedimentary Geology
Andrew A. Snelling, PhD - Hardrock Geology
Kurt P. Wise, PhD - Paleontology

John is the one who modeled continental drift and changed conventional "wisdom".

I dare you to go toe-to-toe with them...
 
The land sold is called School Trust Land, maybe you should look into SITLA you might find out SITLA is not considered public property, the land is treated like private ownership. The false sense of SITLA being public property is the fact they allow pepole to use the land as such but they can and do lock up SITLA property and never let you or anyone else to enjoy the land.
Right, I'm familiar with SITLA, but you may notice my post didn't say it was "public," I said it was "state-owned."

Also, if you listen to the proponents of land transfer they say it's for money for schools. That money comes from property tax, which won't happen if it remains public land. Land for hunting and camping doesn't generate taxes, selling it does. The only way that public property has a financial benefit to schools is if it's privatized. The land grab proponents are open about their desires to sell public property, it just requires doing the math that 2+2=4.
 
This is James from Team Ally. Thank you so much for reaching out. We are committed to listening to Utahns like yourself as we tackle the tough issues like you have mentioned.

Ally believes in compassionate conservatism, free market innovation, and fiscal discipline and I'm sure will defer to such principles on policy actions relating to public lands. I am sure you will have your specific questions answered through Ally's words and actions as we campaign. She has spent her career bringing people together to tackle tough issues and feels she has a responsibility to do that now by running for Senate.

If you want to keep an eye out on what Ally and the campaign are doing (including her Listening Tour of Utah), find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Ally For Utah. You can interact with us there, or reach out here again.

Best,
James Ostergar
 
Update for you, one eye, and the devil:

John Baumgardner, PhD - Geophysics
D. Russell Humphreys, PhD - Physics
Larry Vardimann, PhD - Atmospheric Physics
Steven A. Austin, PhD - Sedimentary Geology
Andrew A. Snelling, PhD - Hardrock Geology
Kurt P. Wise, PhD - Paleontology

John is the one who modeled continental drift and changed conventional "wisdom".

I dare you to go toe-to-toe with them...
So your authorities for climate change are all young earth creationists, most of which have been employed at one time or another by various creationist organizations. Ok...thank you for providing me their names, I do appreciate it.

Few sincere questions friend:

-Do you believe the earth is flat or round?
-How old do you believe the earth to be?
-Do you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution?

I have not said one mean thing to you Mr Roadrunner. I have asked a few sincere questions. I am not here to debate you nor do I have any 'alliance' with any other forum members on this thread. You are welcome to ignore my questions and move on but we don't need to be disrespectful with each other. Thank you sir.
 
We Narrowed The Evolution Theory down to two options:

Ocho either was delivered by the Stork!

Or He Evoluted from SLIME!
 
elkassassin:

Have you ever killed an elk?

Also, I am trying to tell what your avatar picture is. Is it a cat looking through a scoped rifle while using a persons backside as a rest?

That's kinda strange don't ya think?--can you explain it please--I'm legit intrigued. What is the cat aiming at? How did you train it to use a rifle? Wouldn't the persons head get in the way of the cat's aim and if the cat did fire wouldn't the muzzle blast hurt the ears of the person (maybe they have hearing protection?)? What is the thing next to the person (shoes?)?

I know you are a legend on MM and I think you are pretty flippin funny but that picture is something else!
 
This is James from Team Ally. Thank you so much for reaching out. We are committed to listening to Utahns like yourself as we tackle the tough issues like you have mentioned.

Ally believes in compassionate conservatism, free market innovation, and fiscal discipline and I'm sure will defer to such principles on policy actions relating to public lands. I am sure you will have your specific questions answered through Ally's words and actions as we campaign. She has spent her career bringing people together to tackle tough issues and feels she has a responsibility to do that now by running for Senate.

If you want to keep an eye out on what Ally and the campaign are doing (including her Listening Tour of Utah), find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Ally For Utah. You can interact with us there, or reach out here again.

Best,
James Ostergar

Is this the worst answer on this topic you’ve ever seen? Free market innovation and fiscal discipline sound like code words for “transfer to the state” to me.
 
Is this the worst answer on this topic you’ve ever seen? Free market innovation and fiscal discipline sound like code words for “transfer to the state” to me.
That sounds like a form answer that is given regardless of the question asked. I don't think we know anything about the challenger's position on public lands at this point.

Worst-case scenario they're like Lee and Cruz, anything else would be an improvement. I'm waiting to see their positions before forming an opinion as to how I'll vote.
 
elkassassin:

Have you ever killed an elk?

Also, I am trying to tell what your avatar picture is. Is it a cat looking through a scoped rifle while using a persons backside as a rest?

That's kinda strange don't ya think?--can you explain it please--I'm legit intrigued. What is the cat aiming at? How did you train it to use a rifle? Wouldn't the persons head get in the way of the cat's aim and if the cat did fire wouldn't the muzzle blast hurt the ears of the person (maybe they have hearing protection?)? What is the thing next to the person (shoes?)?

I know you are a legend on MM and I think you are pretty flippin funny but that picture is something else!
Ol' elkass was originally called Bobcatbess. I don't know for sure but maybe that plays a role in his choice of avatar.

That cat is straight up blasting some ass though. ???
 
Is this the worst answer on this topic you’ve ever seen? Free market innovation and fiscal discipline sound like code words for “transfer to the state” to me.


Yup. Not going to beat Lee by saying nothing about anything
 
I don’t like Lee on public land issues. But he fights back on radical left policies. As far as his change on trump. I’ll bet some of you got a new boss one time at work and you hated him or her. Then he proved himself to you and you changed your stance on him or her. It’s ok to change the way you feel about someone. That’s part of personal growth!
 
So your authorities for climate change are all young earth creationists, most of which have been employed at one time or another by various creationist organizations. Ok...thank you for providing me their names, I do appreciate it.

Few sincere questions friend:

-Do you believe the earth is flat or round?
-How old do you believe the earth to be?
-Do you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution?

I have not said one mean thing to you Mr Roadrunner. I have asked a few sincere questions. I am not here to debate you nor do I have any 'alliance' with any other forum members on this thread. You are welcome to ignore my questions and move on but we don't need to be disrespectful with each other. Thank you sir.
Like I said, a different perspective to the conventional approach that makes just as valid an argument as the other 99.9%. I did mention in other posts the two approaches; young earth and old earth.

Your questions implied debate and skepticism, and were not as "sincere" as you may think...

Especially when one-eye and the devil liked your offense approach to what the OP eludes to that all in the scientific community are in agreement because many of them aren't.

Perhaps I should have directed this particular post to one-eye as he is the one who clearly does not get it.
 
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-Do you believe the earth is flat or round?
-How old do you believe the earth to be?
-Do you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution?

The earth is elliptical in shape due to the centrifugal forces as it rotates around its axis. But for the purposes of your question, it is round.

Old earth approach says it is 4.5 billion years old, Young earth says it should be around 7,000 years old. I don't believe it's 4.5 billion...

Darwin was a fool and his approach was developed to support an old earth model. Darwin's failure is that he assumes mutation is a benefit when it's not. Also, Darwin incorrectly assumes a species can make changes to its own genetic code on demand when it can't. No change can happen in a genome that is not already written into the genetic code.
 
I’ve seen vishnu schist. It’s pretty old. It took a hell of a long time to pile all that other rock on top of it too.
 
I don’t like Lee on public land issues. But he fights back on radical left policies. As far as his change on trump. I’ll bet some of you got a new boss one time at work and you hated him or her. Then he proved himself to you and you changed your stance on him or her. It’s ok to change the way you feel about someone. That’s part of personal growth!


I don't fault him on that. I changed my opinion on Trump as well.

I fault him for his lying and dishonesty. I fault him for not representing his constituents over his donors on land poll.

Utahns don't support selling off public land. By a huge margin. They don't support running it into the ground and not doing maintenance, by a huge margin.

Mike Lee does, and has.

Yet, just like every example I've stated, he doesn't have the stones to ACTUALLY put up a bill. Sure he'll give speeches, take campaign money based on those speeches, but there isn't any real teeth in the form of law making.

No bill to end abortion, no bill for nationwide carry. No bill on balanced budgets, or spending. And, no bill to sell off 640 million acres.

He will vote to starve budgets, to delay funding. He will back room deal, plan and scheme. But he's too chicken*@&# to stick his neck out.

My family rolled into town the year after Brigham did, like many of yours. Not sure being a weasel, a liar, and a coward, are Utah values either.

But then, Mike really isn't from Utah, he shows up when there is PR to be had. He's from DC, and his values and actions fit DC.
 
I’ve seen vishnu schist. It’s pretty old. It took a hell of a long time to pile all that other rock on top of it too.

Or, suddenly all at once. The difference between the two approaches is one took forever and the other was quick and catastrophic. As far as the one that took forever, the conservation of energy relative to momentum and the collision of two large masses, does not support the forming of the Himalayas, or any other mountain range for that matter, and the fact that the two highest peaks in the world fluctuate back and forth.

Conventional wisdom tells us it took forever.

And, I just love how I'm able to get under the devils skin by his compulsive use of the 'HaHa' emoji...
 
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Or, suddenly all at once. The difference between the two approaches is one took forever and the other was quick and catastrophic. As far as the one that took forever, the conservation of energy relative to momentum and the collision of two large masses, does not support the forming of the Himalayas, or any other mountain range for that matter, and the fact that the two highest peaks in the world fluctuate back and forth.

Conventional wisdom tells us it took forever.

And, I just love how I'm able to get under the devils skin by his compulsive use of the 'HaHa' emoji...
97E2D588-8AC1-4C16-A188-1B4EA1E815B0.jpeg
 
Romney in 2016: “Trump is an abhorrent person”
Romney in 2020: “Trump is abhorrent person”

Lee in 2016: “Trump is abhorrent person who should step out of the race and give the nomination to Pence”
Lee in 2020: “Trump is captain Moroni”

idk seems like one guy was pretty consistent in what he said, and it’s the other guy who sold his soul. Y’all just sold your soul to a horrible human right along with him. This is getting way off into the weeds at this point, but pretending Mitt is who changed is laughable. Too many sold their souls to one dude, don’t be mad not everyone will.

Both of these other candidates are also conservatives, but don’t have the horrible public land attacks reputation Lee does.

Sometimes the party isn’t right man. Something I vehemently disagree with Republicans on as well (even though a lot of them are starting to come around and acknowledge the science behind it as well) is climate change, which absolutely impacts us as sportsman as well. I’m not saying the right answers to the issue are being proposed but it’s another thing where there is clear evidence it’s happening, and that we also are a contributor to it, and pretending it’s not is really something as we witness record breaking heat and drought in this state. Watching the Great Salt Lake disappear. Watching Nevada fish and gave literally have to helicopter in water to keep bighorn sheep alive. Like it’s okay to not hold so tightly to party lines at times, it’s actually extremely stupid to do so. The extremes of both parties are a problem, and Lee is absolutely one of those extremes especially on public lands. What’s wild is people like yourself say Mitt is a disgrace while both he and Lee vote the same way like 95% of the time. Admit that your mad Mitt won’t cower to the dude you apparently think is God himself and at least be honest about it. Because those twos votes aren’t a lot different, slightly different on public land issues, but not very different at all overall.
Romney in December 2016 gets down on his knees and says to Trump: I'll do anything for a cabinet position. Trump says no and Romney then immediately becomes the number one Anti-Trump agenda blocker (Republican in name only) going so far as to create a fake twitter account under the name Pierre Delecto and gets caught doing it.

Where actually is Romney from, Michigan, Massachusetts, Utah? The truth is Mittens is a carpetbagger much like Hillary's move from Arkansas to New York. He goes wherever is best for his political career. He knew his only play to stay relevant was moving to Utah and counting on his religion to get elected.

At least with a democrat you know what you are getting and what they stand for. Romney is a deceiver and has stolen an important Senate seat which under any other circumstance would belong to a true conservative.

The reason Romney became Senator is due solely to the GREEN JELLO/SHREDDED CARROT WOMEN'S COALITION OF UTAH.
 
Mitt is a puke of human and perfect example of a sell out Republican. The state of Utah can not get rid of him quick enough. If you are a Mitt supporter you are in my eyes an enemy of this country. He came to Utah because he knew he could manipulate and he was right. He is literally the best example of how corrupt and manipulative our current government is.
 
The latest reminder of legislation Mike Lee voted against, that directly benefits public lands in our own backyards, and local businesses. The funds for these came from grant from the Great American Outdoors Act. Some of these were…decades past when they needed to be replaced. Good to see. Good to see the money go into local business and citizens pockets, and improve facilities on public lands in our back yard…but Mike Lee was a no on that.


 
I don't fault him on that. I changed my opinion on Trump as well.

I fault him for his lying and dishonesty. I fault him for not representing his constituents over his donors on land poll.

Utahns don't support selling off public land. By a huge margin. They don't support running it into the ground and not doing maintenance, by a huge margin.

Mike Lee does, and has.

Yet, just like every example I've stated, he doesn't have the stones to ACTUALLY put up a bill. Sure he'll give speeches, take campaign money based on those speeches, but there isn't any real teeth in the form of law making.

No bill to end abortion, no bill for nationwide carry. No bill on balanced budgets, or spending. And, no bill to sell off 640 million acres.

He will vote to starve budgets, to delay funding. He will back room deal, plan and scheme. But he's too chicken*@&# to stick his neck out.

My family rolled into town the year after Brigham did, like many of yours. Not sure being a weasel, a liar, and a coward, are Utah values either.

But then, Mike really isn't from Utah, he shows up when there is PR to be had. He's from DC, and his values and actions fit DC.
Hoss,

I get what your saying. I don't think Lee walks on water there has to be someone much better and look at who's running against him Mcmullin. He's no better he's a clown just like Liz Cheyney. That's what sucks with politics in Utah we simply are not getting the brightest and best people running. We basically elect soft democrats like Mitt and Cox. And it's all because they are Mormon. Utah voters see that credential with an R next to it and they pounce.
 
Hoss,

I get what your saying. I don't think Lee walks on water there has to be someone much better and look at who's running against him Mcmullin. He's no better he's a clown just like Liz Cheyney. That's what sucks with politics in Utah we simply are not getting the brightest and best people running. We basically elect soft democrats like Mitt and Cox. And it's all because they are Mormon. Utah voters see that credential with an R next to it and they pounce.

Good thing that was cleared up.
 
Hoss,

I get what your saying. I don't think Lee walks on water there has to be someone much better and look at who's running against him Mcmullin. He's no better he's a clown just like Liz Cheyney. That's what sucks with politics in Utah we simply are not getting the brightest and best people running. We basically elect soft democrats like Mitt and Cox. And it's all because they are Mormon. Utah voters see that credential with an R next to it and they pounce.
I love how Mitt and Cox are “soft Democrats” just because they don’t like Trump, yet vote with Trump/the Republican Party 90%+ of the time. This is a fact by the way. Mitt specifically votes one way 90% of the time. So no he’s not a Democrat just because he doesn’t care to kiss the ***** grabbers ass. Which btw, I don’t agree with his votes plenty of the time. I’m much more into moderation. Neither Romney nor Cox vote like moderates. The truth is most of you just don’t like that they don’t kiss the one dudes ass. And good for them, that dude is a POS. McMullin will also vote conservative most the time, but also is not a Trump ass kisser which some of you just can’t stand.
 
I love how Mitt and Cox are “soft Democrats” just because they don’t like Trump, yet vote with Trump/the Republican Party 90%+ of the time. This is a fact by the way. Mitt specifically votes one way 90% of the time. So no he’s not a Democrat just because he doesn’t care to kiss the ***** grabbers ass. Which btw, I don’t agree with his votes plenty of the time. I’m much more into moderation. Neither Romney nor Cox vote like moderates. The truth is most of you just don’t like that they don’t kiss the one dudes ass. And good for them, that dude is a POS. McMullin will also vote conservative most the time, but also is not a Trump ass kisser which some of you just can’t stand.

And that's why that other party is so united and frequently more successful in federal elections. They put their petty differences aside to push the agenda.
 
And that's why that other party is so united and frequently more successful in federal elections. They put their petty differences aside to push the agenda.
No they are not. Joe Manchin is called a Republican by Democrats and has been the most powerful politician in America over the last year specifically because he doesn’t just go along with his party. If you want Utah to have power, you get it by electing people like Manchin or McMullin who you have to work for their vote to do what’s best for their respective state vs an automatic political extreme vote like Mike Lee. Here’s the thing. Manchin isn’t a Republican, Romney is as far from a Democrat as about anyone in the Senate with the way he votes, he just has never kissed Trumps ass. The idea the dude is a soft Democrat is just someone proving they truly pay attention to nothing but the rhetoric. Someone like Manchin is more in the middle than someone like Mitt. If you want to know the truth I think McMullin would govern somewhere between Romney and Lee, which isn’t what I’d prefer, but it’s better than Lee who has shown how hostile he is to public lands, wildlife, and wild places. Not kissing one dudes ass, who has proven himself to be….ridiculous in a lot of ways, does not make you a democrat. If Democrats are more successful it’s because they have tied themselves to their policies while Republicans have tied themselves to one guy and not their values or policies. Someone like Liz Cheyney I can agree made a show of it and went overboard. But calling someone like Mitt or Cox a soft Democrat is asinine bullshit based in nothing but the fact they don’t like the one guy. One party worries about it’s policies, the other party has gotten fully distracted by its obsession over one candidate and former President.
 
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No they are not. Joe Manchin is called a Republican by Democrats and has been the most powerful politician in America over the last year specifically because he doesn’t just go along with his party. If you want Utah to have power, you get it by electing people like Manchin or McMullin who you have to work for their vote to do what’s best for their respective state vs an automatic political extreme vote like Mike Lee. Here’s the thing. Manchin isn’t a Republican, Romney is as far from a Democrat as about anyone in the Senate with the way he votes, he just has never kissed Trumps ass. The idea the dude is a soft Democrat is just someone proving they truly pay attention to nothing but the rhetoric. Someone like Manchin is more in the middle than someone like Mitt. If you want to know the truth I think McMullin would govern somewhere between Romney and Lee, which isn’t what I’d prefer, but it’s better than Lee who has shown how hostile he is to public lands, wildlife, and wild places. Not kissing one dudes ass, who has proven himself to be….ridiculous in a lot of ways, does not make you a democrat. If Democrats are more successful it’s because they have tied themselves to their policies while Republicans have tied themselves to one guy and not their values or policies. Someone like Liz Cheyney I can agree made a show of it and went overboard. But calling someone like Mitt or Cox a soft Democrat is asinine bullshit based in nothing but the fact they don’t like the one guy. One party worries about it’s policies, the other party has gotten fully distracted by its obsession over one candidate and former President.

Okay. Whatever.
 
I love how Mitt and Cox are “soft Democrats” just because they don’t like Trump, yet vote with Trump/the Republican Party 90%+ of the time. This is a fact by the way. Mitt specifically votes one way 90% of the time. So no he’s not a Democrat just because he doesn’t care to kiss the ***** grabbers ass. Which btw, I don’t agree with his votes plenty of the time. I’m much more into moderation. Neither Romney nor Cox vote like moderates. The truth is most of you just don’t like that they don’t kiss the one dudes ass. And good for them, that dude is a POS. McMullin will also vote conservative most the time, but also is not a Trump ass kisser which some of you just can’t stand.
No I just don’t like Covid lockdown, mask mandate, they/them, Black Lives Matter, I stand with Ukraine pussies that spend your money and have the balls to raise your taxes! Those two Jack asses check every box on that list. What has Cox done with all that money he promised rural American.
 
No I just don’t like Covid lockdown, mask mandate, they/them, Black Lives Matter, I stand with Ukraine pussies that spend your money and have the balls to raise your taxes! Those two Jack asses check every box on that list. What has Cox done with all that money he promised rural American.
Neither supported Covid lockdown lol. Guess what? Utah was one of the most open states in the nation with…ding ding ding….you guessed it. Cox as Governor. As for the pronoun thing. Sure it’s dumb. But the student asked him on a zoom call. God forbid he’s not a political ******* to a 12 year old and just answered them respectfully. I know, he should have told that student what an idiot they are. (You suck if you actually believe he did anything wrong there lol). As for Black Lives Matter? The organization is a farce, but there’s plenty of racism issues within the country still and acknowledging that and supporting improvements on it is perfectly good and worthwhile….unless you’re racist I suppose. Mask mandate? I mean for a short period of time when very little was known about Covid there was a mask mandate, it’s amazing that people like yourself who want to ignore racism is a real issue to this day, will bemoan the fact you had to wear a mask for a while during a pandemic like you were being mistreated in some terrible way. Btw out of all these things what exactly did Romney have to do with them? Does he actually check any of the boxes on that list? Or are you just spewing political rhetoric because you don’t believe there can be a level of civility. Because it seems what you truly don’t like is…they don’t like Trump, and you don’t like that they’re civil to the other side. If you truly think Cox is a soft Democrat because he answered a question a grade school child specifically asked him instead of being a prick to a 12 year old, idk what to tell you. Go watch more Tucker Carlson and rot your brain some more I guess. Romney’s voting record is clear, he’s no where near the center and votes very conservative. So clearly you don’t pay attention to how these people actually vote, you just want them to spew the political nonsense of divisive politics that’s running us down a really shitty road right now. You don’t have to treat the other side horribly to say you belong to the party with which you do, which seems to be the standard anymore. Both their voting records pretty clearly prove you wrong. They are very right Republicans who simply still believe civility is a thing. Not my endorsement of them either. They both vote on bills in ways I dislike way more than I like. But the difference between someone like Romney and Trump is nothing more than the rhetoric one of them spews vs what the other one doesn’t. In fact Romney is probably more conservative than Trump if you look at their record.
 
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Racism is on life support. It's the one thing the democrat party clings to. Now Biden is a true racist. Romney isn't conservative he's a woke mormon. And Trump isn't conservative either you he's independent. You can't win as an independent shows how little you know. As far as the covid lockdown and mask mandate just sitting back is as bad as voting for it, you're complicit at that point. During the spanish flu a real pandemic the president told the people we have a war to win figure it out and he told the media shut up about it and it will pass. And if you didn't catch what happened this week Ukrainian parlement just voted themselves a 70% raise on yours and my dime. Hope you enjoy that on your new tax bill at the end of the year. Things sure were good when the mean tweet orange man steered the ship. Pedo Peter doesn't know where the ship is.
 
Racism is on life support. It's the one thing the democrat party clings to. Now Biden is a true racist. Romney isn't conservative he's a woke mormon. And Trump isn't conservative either you he's independent. You can't win as an independent shows how little you know. As far as the covid lockdown and mask mandate just sitting back is as bad as voting for it, you're complicit at that point. During the spanish flu a real pandemic the president told the people we have a war to win figure it out and he told the media shut up about it and it will pass. And if you didn't catch what happened this week Ukrainian parlement just voted themselves a 70% raise on yours and my dime. Hope you enjoy that on your new tax bill at the end of the year. Things sure were good when the mean tweet orange man steered the ship. Pedo Peter doesn't know where the ship is.

What's a "woke mormon"?
 
Racism is on life support. It's the one thing the democrat party clings to. Now Biden is a true racist. Romney isn't conservative he's a woke mormon. And Trump isn't conservative either you he's independent. You can't win as an independent shows how little you know. As far as the covid lockdown and mask mandate just sitting back is as bad as voting for it, you're complicit at that point. During the spanish flu a real pandemic the president told the people we have a war to win figure it out and he told the media shut up about it and it will pass. And if you didn't catch what happened this week Ukrainian parlement just voted themselves a 70% raise on yours and my dime. Hope you enjoy that on your new tax bill at the end of the year. Things sure were good when the mean tweet orange man steered the ship. Pedo Peter doesn't know where the ship is.
Bad day for racism being on life support when someone can yell the N word from a college stadium multiple times and no one around them address it? How many times is this for Utah sports making national headlines for this garbage in the last 5 years? Seems like a lot. But sure, racism isn’t prevelant. There’s just a headline every month out of Utah of racist POS acting like racist POS right? To be clear, I live in rural Utah, racism being on life support is no where near true. I know that for a fact and you certainly can’t hide it from me. Racism very much still runs deep in this state and continuing to pretend it doesn’t is just outright lying and never going to fix a problem that absolutly exists.


Romney? Yeah, he’s conservative. His voting record proves it. So what you going to do? Just lie on every front? This is super easily disprovable. All you have to do is look at his votes. He’s conservative, and very very much so. Oh he doesn’t like Trump? Guess what? He said that up front. He’s voted conservative his entire time in congress. I get it, we’re into the whole idea that principles mean nothing and political rhetoric is everything, but Mitt is very much to the right right right side of the political spectrum.


Basically, this post and the garbage in it, shows me you are in fact the liar I’ve mentioned above. Go burry your head in some Fox News.
 
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Racism is on life support.
When was the last time you sat down and had a one-on-one conversation with a Black person about the racism they currently experience in Utah?

I honestly had no idea what minorities still go through here. My friend that I speak often with regarding his experiences of racism were mind-blowing to me. All I can do is acknowledge that he lives in a different world than I do, with me having grown up a straight white middle-class male in Utah and him growing up gay and Black in Detroit.

He thought being gay would be the more difficult obstacle when he moved to Utah, but found little resistance there. It is his race that has caused him the most angst.

It would be far too easy for me to sit in my shell and say racism didn't exist anymore, but after talking to him about it over the years, I know I'd be wrong. It absolutely does.
 
To be clear, I live in rural Utah, racism being on life support is no where near true. I know that for a fact and you certainly can’t hide it from me.
I witnessed, with my own eyes, at a political rally in southern Utah before the last presidential election, two signs being held by rally-goers, one that said, "White is Right" and the other said, "One Nation One Color"

PS. The "moron" and "loser" are unnecessary and what cause threads to be locked.
 

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