Mule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs)

[Hiker of the Woods]

Mule Deer Antler Point Regs (APRs) Don’t Work

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/con...ive/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf

All APR strategies resulted in a short term gain in the proportion of males in the population. However, male:female ratios eventually returned to pre-APR levels after varying lengths of time, regardless whether the APR was continued. Most western states have concluded that sustainable improvements in buck:doe ratios and the number of mature bucks can only be realized by reducing harvest through: 1) a limited quota license system that decreases the total buck harvest while allowing some level of doe harvest (Bender 2011); or by setting a very short hunting season.

Further, increases in buck:doe ratios have never been shown empirically to improve either herd production or population size (deVos et al. 2003; Bishop et al. 2005).

Several observations from our analysis of APR use in Wyoming and throughout the west are summarized below:

• APRs DO increase total buck:doe ratios; however results vary and are usually temporary.

• APRs are very popular with the hunting public. However public understanding of the pros and cons appears to be limited, and is complicated by popular literature concerning APRs.

• Most benefits occur in ≤ 3 years; use of APRs beyond this often appear to result in negative impacts to both total buck ratios and mature buck ratios. Continued long term use of APRs (≥3-4 years) may result in lower total male:female ratios.

• No APR strategy produced a long-term increase in adult (mature) male:female ratios, or an increase in the number of adult bucks, except in a handful of cases where hunter participation declined significantly, coupled with good fawn production.

Temporary APRs are most effective following a year of high fawn production and recruitment or when doe harvest is increased.

• Managers have found most effective way to recover from chronically low buck:doe ratios is through a dramatic reduction in harvest pressure on males ≥2 years of age (through a conservative limited quota season or very short season length). Available data also tends to support this.

• APRs have been shown to reduce the number and potentially the quality of mature bucks over time.

• Long-term use of APRs may target legal bucks that have not realized their full antler growth potential while protecting bucks with low antler growth potential (i.e., hunters select against legal bucks with smaller antlers). Although not validated by research, this is a concern among wildlife professionals and the public.

• APRs may dramatically reduce hunter participation, harvest success, and total harvest.

• APRs increase the number of deer shot and illegally left in the field; this can be significant and has been documented in Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, and Montana.

• APRS do not increase fawn production or population size. Even in herds with singledigit buck:doe ratios, pregnancy rates are well over 90%. Large increases in buck ratios result in relatively few additional fawns (White et al. 2001). The extent to which relative proportions of yearling and mature bucks influence timing of conception and fawn recruitment/survival needs further evaluation.

• Some APRs displace hunting pressure to the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually eroding that segment of the population. Others reduce recruitment to older age classes by displacing harvest pressure to yearling males.

• APRs may decrease interest of hunters whose primary motivation is to obtain meat.

• APRs may discourage beginning and young hunters by increasing the difficulty of locating and identifying legal deer.

• Long-term use of APRs in areas with limited security/escape habitat potentially impedes maintenance of publically acceptable total and mature buck:doe ratios.

• Empirical studies of APR regulations have not been conducted. We recommend this become a priority research topic for the WAFWA.

• APRs should be viewed as a legitimate management tool in areas with chronically low male:female ratios provided they are applied on a time-limited basis. Managers and the public are cautioned that available data and experience suggest APRs result in no long term increase in either the proportion or number of mature bucks, or the total deer population.

 

[elkassassin]

APR's will have Niller & Others Wetting their High Dollar Camo!

I'm not against them!

I Just wanna see it enforced!

I Seen it work not so well in the Book Cliffs due to Trigger Happy TARDS!

 

[goofyelk]

" Don't work " ??????

Several places in the report say APRs They DO WORK.

 

[300wtby]

They sure worked in Pennsylvania. Back about 15 years ago if it had horns it was shot. There was hardly any age class in our bucks. It was a very, very hard sell from our game commission to sell the point restrictions. Now 15 years later we have age structure in our deer herd and there are some truly big bucks being harvested in our state. Unfortunately with the advent of CWD they are now considering eliminating the point restrictions and killing the entire herd.

 

[elks96]

So the only way they work is a temporary 2-3 period, but nothing in the long term. I absolutely hate APR. I watched 3 years in WY where a monster 3x2 bred doe after doe. He was brute and I would have given anything to harvest him. Even took pictures to the local warden and biologist hoping to get permission. They agreed that he was easily a 5 year old deer and as such should have been removed. Meanwhile I was seeing every little 20" 3 year old buck get dropped.

In some areas where they have been used for longer periods you can sure see a 3-point gene. In Colorado and WY both there are some units where APRs were used for extended periods and still 10-20 years later you see a very prevalent 3 points gene.

The way to have more deer and mature deer is to kill fewer deer. As mentioned you kill fewer deer by limiting opportunity.

 

[Deerlove]

Utah dwr said with shorter season MORE deer got killed??

 

[elks96]

Utah dwr said with shorter season MORE deer got killed??

The only way that might happen is if the season was so short that everyone thought they had to shoot the first one they saw???

 

[JakeH]

The only way that might happen is if the season was so short that everyone thought they had to shoot the first one they saw???

Utah used to have 5 day general season hunts on the two southern units back when the state was broke down into 5 units.

 

[jims]

I would be curious to hear what Utah guys think regarding the "management buck" strategy on the Henry's and Paunsaugunt units? It seems like a great way to preserve the fantastic genes for whopper bucks in those units? Mature bucks with the biggest, baddest headgear are likely the ones breeding does?

I'm a firm believer that not all antler restrictions are created equally! There is likely a huge difference in outcome between units with 3x vs 4 pt or better regs…..especially if conducted long-term!

As mentioned above I really think 4 pt or better restrictions are just asking for trouble. Lots of older age class 3x's aren't getting shot year after year and are doing the breeding! I also believe that culling older age class 3x's may gradually allow some of the units with an abundance of poor 3x genetics to rebound if less hunting pressure is put on 4x4 bucks. Culling mature 3x's may not be enough if hunting pressure on 4x4's remains high. In units like the Henry's where there may only be a few 3x's the biggest management bucks are likely shot and are no longer breeding does.....I would think this would benefit the herd long-term!

It may take a long time to repair the results of unit with a past history of 4 pt or better regs though! I know 1 unit in Wyo that is loaded with 3x's. I spent time in the unit after hunting season and only saw 1 4x buck....the rest were 3x's that were breeding does. The few decent 4x4's that exist get shot! Pretty pathetic if you know the potential of that particular unit!

 

[Vanilla]

Bessy, I would not support APRs because they don’t work. Despite what goofy is suggesting in interpreting the report above, it does NOT say they work.

It does say that over the first couple years you might see some increase in bucks but that doesn’t last, and it returns back to what it was in the long run. It also says if you leave them on for longer than a couple years it has long term negative impacts. I’m trying to figure out what about that is “working” to benefit the herd?

So best we can say is if you do this, you may have a couple years of higher buck:doe ratios, but they’ll return to where they were after that, with a chance is long term negative impact as a result.

Yep, put me in the “I don’t want that” group! I actually like hunting deer. I’m tired of us doing things that prevent that from happening.

 

[jims]

So Vanilla, what you are saying is that all antler restrictions are created equally and none have a chance to work for more than a couple years? I would really like to hear your thoughts in regard to my post immediately above?

FYI, none of the antler restriction types reviewed in the multi-state study you mention above look at management buck harvest of MATURE 3 pt management type buck harvests and strategies for multiple years. Almost every type reviewed in the study was 4 pt or better with a couple other types thrown in...….which is old school.....and super old news!

 

[Vanilla]

No, I'm not saying that all antler restrictions are created equally. I'm simply commenting on the study that was posted here and specifically to those that are suggesting this study supports the notion of antler point restrictions "working." It does no such thing.

I agree the 4 point or better is old news, yet that is what many on this forum have advocated for over the last month. I think you and I are in agreement on that one point. I'm not sure how other types of antler point restrictions work. I don't think at looking at management hunts on the Henrys and Pauns are good data points because their sample size is so small. Management buck, no management buck, when you're talking so few deer, does it really make a difference? I doubt it. I view that as much more of an "opportunity" hunt than a true management hunt when it comes to the impact on the herd. But that's just my opinion on that one, I have nothing to back that up.

 

[elkassassin]

Like I've Said Many Times!

Just about everybody Blames/Or wants to Try 'just one thing/One Change'!

When You Get Your #### List together with about 49 other Changes You Might Help Bring the Herd back!

Hey Niller?

You Remember "HELL-RIGHT"?

 

[jm77]

3 point APRs absolutely work and can be left on indefinitely. I have seen it. The whole idea is to protect all yearling bucks and that's what it does. Without the 3 point APR we would have to close some general areas in Wyoming and reduce opportunity.

 

[Vanilla]

jm77, can you share that data where the 3 point APR saved the herd and was left on indefinitely? I’d love to educate myself on that.

 

[jm77]

jm77, can you share that data where the 3 point APR saved the herd and was left on indefinitely? I’d love to educate myself on that.

Absolutely. If you would like, you are invited to attend our next MDI (mule deer initiative) meeting, hosted by WY G&F, here in Casper, where I am a member of the working group. We can show you how 3 point restrictions have help us maintain 27 to 35 bucks per 100 does, in an otc general area, which has enabled us to provide deer hunting to any local residents and nonresidents who can draw a region tag.

Or, you can just continue to think you know everything about APRs.

 

[goofyelk]

I sure do wish Utah would go to 3 point ARs on a few units.
I mean honestly, what would it hurt to try at this time?

 

[hawkbill]

I sure would like to see our yearling bucks make it up here in Idaho in these otc hunts. I’m not a fan of oppurtunity hunting.

 

[Vanilla]

Absolutely. If you would like, you are invited to attend our next MDI (mule deer initiative) meeting, hosted by WY G&F, here in Casper, where I am a member of the working group. We can show you how 3 point restrictions have help us maintain 27 to 35 bucks per 100 does, in an otc general area, which has enabled us to provide deer hunting to any local residents and nonresidents who can draw a region tag.

Or, you can just continue to think you know everything about APRs.

I don't think I know everything, and I even acknowledged I didn't know much outside of what is published. And what is published, is APR have not worked. At least not the way they have been administered in my state in the past. I'm legitimately asking for information to be able to educate myself on it. So you can share it, or you can continue to be kind of a jerk and just talk down to people when they are asking for information you claim to have. One way you can create an ally, the other you can create an enemy. I'm a willing learner, but if you leave me to my own conclusions, particularly after your last post, it's a really easy conclusion to make.

No, I will not be traveling to Casper for a meeting. I'd be happy to share my contact info offline if you are able to send any of the data for my review. Or, if you don't have it or are unwilling to share it, I'll continue to not be able to review it. And there you'll leave me to draw my own conclusions as to why.

 

[jm77]

I don't think I know everything, and I even acknowledged I didn't know much outside of what is published. And what is published, is APR have not worked. At least not the way they have been administered in my state in the past. I'm legitimately asking for information to be able to educate myself on it. So you can share it, or you can continue to be kind of a jerk and just talk down to people when they are asking for information you claim to have. One way you can create an ally, the other you can create an enemy. I'm a willing learner, but if you leave me to my own conclusions, particularly after your last post, it's a really easy conclusion to make.

No, I will not be traveling to Casper for a meeting. I'd be happy to share my contact info offline if you are able to send any of the data for my review. Or, if you don't have it or are unwilling to share it, I'll continue to not be able to review it. And there you'll leave me to draw my own conclusions as to why.

Here's the problem, and I'll not try and offend you by being a jerk, most if not all opinions on APRs are based around 4 point and not 3 point. Three point APR's only protect yearling bucks. Because of this, the claim that genetics are compromised is not relevant. Still there is no hard evidence that 4 point APRs ruin genetics or negatively skew buck/doe ratios, only "observations" and opinions. Buck/doe ratios are mainly effected by hunting pressure and length of season when no APRs are present.

Someone on this thread has claimed that 4 point APRs actually turned an area in Wyoming into a "3 point" buck area. That's funny, because I proved to him, through regulations, that the area had a 4 point restriction for two years in 1987 & 1988. He still claims APRs ruined the area. In reality, he doesn't know where to find the big bucks.

Vanilla, if you want, I can get you the yearly data on buck/doe ratios in the area that has had a 3 point restriction on for extended years. When the restriction was implemented, the ratio was around 10/100 and has now been maintained between 27 to 35/100.

 

[excaliber]

Depending on who is paying for the study gets the results they want. It's always been that way.
IMHO, I don't care what they say a 4 pt. restriction would work here in Idaho and we would have allot more older bucks.
Most of the deer I see killed are very young bucks. I see very few nice 4 points or larger killed.
People who kill the smaller deer are looking for an easy opportunity and will shoot the first deer they see with antlers.
Most of these people will not put forth the effort needed into finding a larger 4 pt.

Just saying it wont work so they're not going to try it is a cop out. I'd like to see less pressure on the resource.

I'm all for increasing resident and NR tag prices, implementing point restrictions. Lets stop all does hunts until further notice. Close units for a couple years and rotate as needed to rebuild populations.

Make all hunts controlled hunts. Make hunters pick their weapons/seasons and no more of this general hunt BS where you can chase deer from August 30th until the end of November.
Seasons need to be shortened for Rifle hunts.

That will increase the deer population and improve the quality of the bucks taken.

I know this wont be popular but something has to be done.

 

[Vanilla]

Does anyone know what the mule deer population trends are for Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks? I'd be interested to see if they are having population explosions of deer. If shutting down units in that general area would help rebound the deer population, then these places should be booming with mule deer since hunting hasn't been allowed in lifetimes. Is that the case? Are mule deer populations in those national parks exploding?

(That is not a rhetorical question, I don't know the answer to that.)

 

[elkassassin]

I Don't know about in the last few years Niller?

But a Few Years ago I Didn't see many Deer up there!

But Remember Niller!

The Wolf Lovers are Happy & that's what Counts!

We Got More TARDS in this State Worried about Lions than anything,when they Should be more worried about the Wolves they wanna Plant in this State!

Realize the Facts Niller:

It Will take many Changes to Fix the TARDville Deer Herd!

You ever heard of HELL-RIGHT Niller?

 

[Vanilla]

If someone starts a thread talking about the introduction of wolves and how it will impact deer, I’ll have that conversation. At this point I’d rather just stick to the claims being made in this thread and see if we can get enough info shared that we can make good decisions.

Someone suggested shutting down units entirely for a few years to allow the deer to rebound. If that would indeed work, these large areas with no hunting for decades upon decades should be full of deer. On the other hand, if they are not full of deer, then maybe it isn’t the hunting that’s causing the problems after all and shutting down the unit will only keep hunters from hunting, but have no positive impact on the herd. Seems like a pretty easy thing to look at and analyze. We have places to look at. We don’t ha e to guess or assume. That’s why I asked if anyone has the numbers.

 

[elkassassin]

Answer Niller:

Deer Numbers are Low in Our State & All the Surrounding States as Well!

HELL-RIGHT!

 

[elkassassin]

Wait Till they Plant them Tame Mutts that eventually Turn Half Wild & Start Eating on their Own!

You Boys will be BAWLING like little Sissy's!

 

[elkassassin]

So Niller?

What You Willing To 'GIVE'?

You Want Me to Post HELL-RIGHT in here?

 

[Vanilla]

Nope. Reading that junk was good enough the first time!

 

[elkassassin]

Nope. Reading that junk was good enough the first time!

JUNK My ASS!

You Won't 'GIVE' One item on the List Will You?

 

[elkassassin]

I'm Warnin You Niller!

They Gonna Take your LL!

Then what you gonna do?

 

[Vanilla]

I am willing to give. I’m just not willing to give the crap in that post. Bessy, you know we’re boys and despite my best judgment, I like you!

But that thread was total crap and doesn’t have anything to do with improving deer hunting.

 

[jims]

Teton and Yellowstone don't exactly have much prime deer habitat or winter range so that's pretty much a mute point. Rocky Mountain Park in Colo has significant drop in deer numbers the past 10 years....with 0 hunting pressure! Winterkill. disease, and the booming elk population are several culprits for the declining deer population in RNMP and elsewhere in the West. Just because an area doesn't have hunting doesn't mean there are other problems with declining deer populations.

Winter range is decreasing at an alarming rate across the West. Cheatgrass and other invasive weeds decrease browse species. Encroachment of whitetail and the booming elk population doesn't exactly help. What about predators, CWD,...the list goes on!

 

[elkassassin]

Like I've said many Times!

I Believe there are So many Problems with the Deer Herd that Average TARDS/Opportunists will Never 'GIVE' enough to try and Help the Suffering Herd!

This means it'll even get worse than it is right now!

If You care anything about your Kids/GrandKids & Them Hunting in the Future Now is Past Time to See the Light & Wake the Hell Up!

But since nobody Looks in to the Future Past tomorrow Morning Here the Hell We are!

When a DINK/PISSCUTTER becomes Big I Suppose TARDS will still be Parading them around Town like they're some kind of Trophy!

We Know this State is capable of Producing Quality Bucks & Bulls!

We Also know that it can be FUBAR!

It'll Never Change!

Wait a Minute!

Stick around!

You'll see it get worse!

 

[jims]

I try to look on the bright side and figure out strategies that will improve wild critters and their habit for the future! I actually do this every day for a living!

With that said, there is a bright star in the near future that may totally change deer health and habitat! If your area has cheatgrass or other annual invasive weeds in muledeer country this may literally be the icing on the cake!

 

[Vanilla]

jims, let’s hear more about this!

 

[elkassassin]

I try to look on the bright side and figure out strategies that will improve wild critters and their habit for the future! I actually do this every day for a living!

With that said, there is a bright star in the near future that may totally change deer health and habitat! If your area has cheatgrass or other annual invasive weeds in muledeer country this may literally be the icing on the cake!

I Don't know which state you're from jims?

And Niller Ain't old enough to have seen it!

But when I was Younger They Decided Railing the PJ Forests was the Answer!

About 40 years later they found out they were Wrong!

Niller is Looking for One Item & one Item only He can Blame the PISS POOR Deer Herd on!

When He Finally Realizes there's 49+ other things involved maybe We can get something done to Improve it!

 

[Vanilla]

Niller is Looking for One Item & one Item only He can Blame the PISS POOR Deer Herd on!

No I’m not. But I am looking for things we can do that will actually make a difference. You can keep talking about the vehicles people drive or the color of their clothing and asking “What will you GIVE?!?” The rest of us are going to try and figure out things that will actually make a difference.

And I’m still not convinced we have a PISS POOR deer herd. One that could be better? Yep. “PISS POOR?” Not quite sure on that one yet.

 

[elkassassin]

No I’m not. But I am looking for things we can do that will actually make a difference. You can keep talking about the vehicles people drive or the color of their clothing and asking “What will you GIVE?!?” The rest of us are going to try and figure out things that will actually make a difference.

And I’m still not convinced we have a PISS POOR deer herd. One that could be better? Yep. “PISS POOR?” Not quite sure on that one yet.

Well Niller!

That Tells Me You are Not Old Enough to know what The Deer Herd Once was in this State!

Or what it could still be!

Do You have Kids Niller?

Do You Have Grand-Kids Niller?

If You have any Care for Future Generations of Deer Hunters You'd Best Think it out a Little!

So Do Tell Us Niller?

What's on your 'GIVE' and/or 'TO DO' List to Improve it?

 

[Muleman]

APR will never make more deer. APRs will never work to increase buck numbers in general hunting seasons. Closing units for a couple years doesn’t increase your deer herd. All it does is let more bucks live for a couple of years which gives the illusion the deer herd is better cuz you will see more bucks when it opens. The doe numbers don’t change so if your producers don’t change you haven’t helped your deer herd.

It’s simple you want more and bigger bucks, restrict license numbers it works.

Everyone keeps bringing up bandaids for the wrong fix. You want to increase your deer herd, decrease predators, increase deer habitat, decrease competition with other species and hope the weather patterns stay good for 3 years in a row so the deer have a chance to benefit.

 

[elkassassin]

APR will never make more deer. APRs will never work to increase buck numbers in general hunting seasons. Closing units for a couple years doesn’t increase your deer herd. All it does is let more bucks live for a couple of years which gives the illusion the deer herd is better cuz you will see more bucks when it opens. The doe numbers don’t change so if your producers don’t change you haven’t helped your deer herd.

It’s simple you want more and bigger bucks, restrict license numbers it works.

Hey Muleman!

You Just Pissed Niller off!

And a Whole bunch more TARDS!

Everyone keeps bringing up bandaids for the wrong fix. You want to increase your deer herd, decrease predators, increase deer habitat, decrease competition with other species and hope the weather patterns stay good for 3 years in a row so the deer have a chance to benefit.

 

[excaliber]

APR's could work if given a chance. I know it would work here. If the fine supported the new rules you'd better be damn sure what you are shooting at.
Get rid of these stupid 2 point hunts here in units 40 and 22. You don't think there would be more bucks that survived to 4 points in a couple years?
Closing that hunt would show a population boom.

Change those units from OTC to controlled hunts. Increase tag prices and reduce tags.
Closing units to allow the population to rebound does indeed increase the deer herd and gives you more bucks. That can't be argued.
You're going to argue that if you don't kill any deer in a specific unit for 3 years that after three years you wont have more deer?
You are not going to increase habitat. Winter range has been encroached on in many areas. There is plenty of summer range habitat. What we have is a lack of deer.
Hoping and praying the weather is good for three years is a game plan to produce more deer?

The only thing I can agree on is killing more predators. That's easier said than done.
Mule deer are hurting everywhere. It's time to make some major concessions that are under our control.

APR will never make more deer. APRs will never work to increase buck numbers in general hunting seasons. Closing units for a couple years doesn’t increase your deer herd. All it does is let more bucks live for a couple of years which gives the illusion the deer herd is better cuz you will see more bucks when it opens. The doe numbers don’t change so if your producers don’t change you haven’t helped your deer herd.

It’s simple you want more and bigger bucks, restrict license numbers it works.

Everyone keeps bringing up bandaids for the wrong fix. You want to increase your deer herd, decrease predators, increase deer habitat, decrease competition with other species and hope the weather patterns stay good for 3 years in a row so the deer have a chance to benefit.

 

[elkassassin]

Agreed!

Mule Deer are Hurting Everywhere!

Maybe Niller can Disagree with me!

Again!

APR's could work if given a chance. I know it would work here. If the fine supported the new rules you'd better be damn sure what you are shooting at.
Get rid of these stupid 2 point hunts here in units 40 and 22. You don't think there would be more bucks that survived to 4 points in a couple years?
Closing that hunt would show a population boom.

Change those units from OTC to controlled hunts. Increase tag prices and reduce tags.
Closing units to allow the population to rebound does indeed increase the deer herd and gives you more bucks. That can't be argued.
You're going to argue that if you don't kill any deer in a specific unit for 3 years that after three years you wont have more deer?
You are not going to increase habitat. Winter range has been encroached on in many areas. There is plenty of summer range habitat. What we have is a lack of deer.
Hoping and praying the weather is good for three years is a game plan to produce more deer?

The only thing I can agree on is killing more predators. That's easier said than done.
Mule deer are hurting everywhere. It's time to make some major concessions that are under our control.

 

[jims]

There was an article a short time ago in Muledeer Foundation magazine in regard to cheatgrass and it's affects on muledeer habitat. Frequency of fires, loss of browse and forage species, etc. I worked at CSU in Colorado for almost 30 years conducting invasive weed research. I now work directly on land management issues at the county level putting to work many of the things I learned through the years at CSU.

There is a relatively new product called Esplanade that controls cheatgrass and other annual weeds for multiple years. In my 40 years of working in a range management setting I have never been as excited as I am about the success with a product. We are finding that deer browse doubles when released from competition from cheatgrass. Another benefit is the thatch associated with cheatgrass that acts as fine fuels for wild fires is almost eliminated 1 to 2 years after control. This means fire frequency and intensity dramatically decreases. Large scale wildfires in Nevada and elsewhere that have slowly but surely been decreasing shrub and other browse species will greatly be reduced by controlling cheatgrass. An additional benefit is the dramatic increase of native forbs and small shrubs that deer utilize throughout the year in response to cheatgrass control. Pollinators also are a big "buzz" word....increasing forbs will directly benefit pollinators, ground nesting birds and other species as well!

There is a lot of bickering going on in regard to tags, regulations, and other things but it is exciting when something can actually be done in the field that will directly benefit wildlife. If anyone is interested in Esplanade and what we are doing to improve wildlife habitat feel free to contact me directly. Land managers are already seeing incredible results throughout the Western US!

 

[elkassassin]

Why didn't they come up with that 40 years ago?

 

[jims]

I sure wish it would have been available years ago!

Unfortunately it takes time to figure out all the specifics of a product and get everything worked out on a label. The grazing label is still in the works but it can currently be sprayed on parks, open space, wildlife management areas, recreation areas, prairie and fire breaks, etc.

 

[Cooper]

That’s awesome news!!!

 

[jm77]

I sure wish it would have been available years ago!

Unfortunately it takes time to figure out all the specifics of a product and get everything worked out on a label. The grazing label is still in the works but it can currently be sprayed on parks, open space, wildlife management areas, recreation areas, prairie and fire breaks, etc.

Sounds like this product kills all grasses and plants it comes into contact with. It will be interesting to see how it is applied.

 

[notdonhunting]

Sounds like this product kills all grasses and plants it comes into contact with. It will be interesting to see how it is applied.

From what I understand what jims is stating is it only kills cheatgrass and other annual weeds and That is great news.

 

[notdonhunting]

Elkassassin I do think there is multiple reasons the deer numbers are down from the 1960 and 1970 but I do not think your 49 reasons would help increase deer numbers, maybe one or two would help.
Elkassassin you keep asking others what they would give up I got one for you.
Would you give up elk?
Elk in my opinion is one of the top 2 reasons for the lack of deer numbers.

So if you elkassassin are not willing to give up elk then I suppose you do not care about the kids or future generations. [ that is your logical way of thinking not mine]

 

[Vanilla]

There is a lot of bickering going on in regard to tags, regulations, and other things but it is exciting when something can actually be done in the field that will directly benefit wildlife. If anyone is interested in Esplanade and what we are doing to improve wildlife habitat feel free to contact me directly. Land managers are already seeing incredible results throughout the Western US!

See, this is what I like to read! No mention of the color of the clothes people wear when they go out. Just something that actually has potential to help! I like it. I look forward to seeing developments in this.

 

[elkassassin]

PISS ON ELK!

You Think them 24 Elk Points are doing me any Good?

(((RAZZIN!)))

I Like Elk Too!

I Like Deer More!

I Wouldn't Miss the Annual PUMPKIN Patch General Season Elk Hunt Fiasco!

Elkassassin I do think there is multiple reasons the deer numbers are down from the 1960 and 1970 but I do not think your 49 reasons would help increase deer numbers, maybe one or two would help.
Elkassassin you keep asking others what they would give up I got one for you.
Would you give up elk?
Elk in my opinion is one of the top 2 reasons for the lack of deer numbers.

So if you elkassassin are not willing to give up elk then I suppose you do not care about the kids or future generations. [ that is your logical way of thinking not mine]

 

[jims]

Esplanade does not injure plants with established roots (perennial forbs, shrubs, and grass, and tree species). Cheatgrass and other annual weeds are controlled. It is a very safe compound that has been used for many years in orchards, vineyards, and even has a turf label. Here in Colo there aren't many annual native species. We've been monitoring native annuals as well as several rare and endangered plants where we've sprayed Esplanade. The results look very promising!

JM77, Esplanade actually has a Section 18 Emergency Exemption order for grazing use in Wyoming, Montana, and Utah for controlling invasive annual grasses medusahead and ventenata.

Here is an article about it: http://news.agropages.com/News/NewsDetail---30764.htm

 

[elkassassin]

Why Ain't it been used before now?

 

[jims]

Esplanade wasn't looked at in a range setting until recent years. There are quite a few stepping stones required to get both range and grazing labels. Now that the research and development work is nearly complete the word is starting to get out about it's incredible potential. It's been exciting being on the cutting edge of this new range product! If you have a chance contact your local university, extension, and Bayer representatives and they can fill you in on more details. The word is slowly but surely getting out!

 

[Hiker of the Woods]

Thank you for sharing all this Jims.

 

[elkassassin]

So jims?

Did they do alot of Railing in Colorado as Well?

Esplanade wasn't looked at in a range setting until recent years. There are quite a few stepping stones required to get both range and grazing labels. Now that the research and development work is nearly complete the word is starting to get out about it's incredible potential. It's been exciting being on the cutting edge of this new range product! If you have a chance contact your local university, extension, and Bayer representatives and they can fill you in on more details. The word is slowly but surely getting out!

 

[notdonhunting]

Elkassassin we difently need to help the deer out but I hope we can do it without hurting the blue collar hunter, I do not want to see deer hunting become more of a kings sport than it already is
Dont get me wrong I like elk and we can have them in the state but they do come with there negatives. We do not need them on every mountain range in the state.

 

[jims]

I guess I'm a little confused what railing is?

 

[slamdunk]

We keep seeing posts on here and other social media platforms about APR's, they work, they don't work.

I have studied all the data I have ever seen, but I tend to not believe the one's that say they do not work.

I say that because I remember the days when Utah had APR's on the Bookcliffs and the Henry's. Both those units were general season, no draws or harvest quotas. Both those units got pounded by hunters, obviously far more pressure than they receive now due to their LE statuses and yet there were mature bucks in very high numbers and hunter success rates were high.

They removed the APR's and in 3 short seasons following, they closed both units to rebuild the herds by not hunting and drastically reducing predators through multiple years of down time.

Today we have less hunters, both units are LE with extremely limited tags on the Henry's. I feel pretty confident that very few 2 points (young bucks) are being harvested off of the Premium LE, but I also feel pretty confident that several young bucks are being harvested off the Bookcliffs, far more than there were "accidental" harvest back then.

Deer numbers on the Henry's seem pretty stable, while the Books have been in a steady decline for years.
Why?
Over harvesting and excessive predators, period.

I'd like to see them apply an APR back on the Bookcliffs for 5 seasons and see what changes.

 

[elkassassin]

Come on jims?

You surely know what Railing/Chaining a PJ forest is?

I guess I'm a little confused what railing is?

 

[jims]

I didn't know it was also called railing. They did some chaining on several winter ranges here in Colo.

Slamdunk, it wasn't too many years ago that all deer tags in Colo were OTC. The results were pretty amazing once all tags were limited and bucks were given the opportunity to age. We all know that Colo is tough to beat for quality bucks across the state!

 

[JakeH]

But when I was Younger They Decided Railing the PJ Forests was the Answer!

About 40 years later they found out they were Wrong!

Bess are you saying that clearing out of the over abundance of PJ forests in area's is not a good thing?????

It definitely improves the habitat if done properly, I do think they get a little over zealous and take out to large of chunks but no doubt the range is improved from what was there before. Personally I think they need to take smaller more strategic chunks out of the landscape rather than the huge swaths they do a lot of now.

 

[elkassassin]

Bess are you saying that clearing out of the over abundance of PJ forests in area's is not a good thing?????

No Jake!

Not Saying that at all!

But the Pro's 30-40 Years Later Claim that after Railing/Chaining the areas the Cheat Grass Exploded in them areas sucking up nearly all the Moisture not leaving other Plants/Brush any moisture for survival!

And You Know We Don't get much Rain anymore!



It definitely improves the habitat if done properly, I do think they get a little over zealous and take out to large of chunks but no doubt the range is improved from what was there before. Personally I think they need to take smaller more strategic chunks out of the landscape rather than the huge swaths they do a lot of now.

Ya!

I've Timbered More PJ's than I care to count with Chainsaws!

I Wonder if in 30-40 Years They'll say that wasn't the Answer either?

(((By Then I Won't have to worry about it!)))

 

[JakeH]

No Jake!

Not Saying that at all!

But the Pro's 30-40 Years Later Claim that after Railing/Chaining the areas the Cheat Grass Exploded in them areas sucking up nearly all the Moisture not leaving other Plants/Brush any moisture for survival!

And You Know We Don't get much Rain anymore!

Well sounds like what Jims is talking about could be a game changer in that regard. If they can actively curb cheat grass and other invading plants it will be a game changer for habitat after these projects and specifically after fires.

Honestly could be absolutely game changing.

 

[goofyelk]

Now they are Bullheadging.
And reseeding.

I spoke with one of the private bullheadger operator/owners last week. After headging, they reseed by helicopter. They are trying to get as much done as possible right now before spring growth.

He has contracts with the DWR.
He was working on the Manti.
And just moved to do another area on Panguitch.

These efforts look very promising.

 

[Hawkeye]

Any photos of the work they are doing?

 

[jims]

Here is a contrast photo. Sprayed on left side of road with Esplanade 2 years before photo was taken. Cheatgrass plus shorter shrubs on right side of road. This would be a great example of loss of dense fine fuels where cheatgrass was controlled and response of taller shrubs on the sprayed side.

 

[jims]

Here are a couple examples of native forbs that were released where there previously was an extremely dense stand of cheatgrass.

 

[jims]

Another photo of wildflowers response to Esplanade. I think the pollinators and other wildlife would be in nirvana!

 

[jims]

Coneflower also likes Esplanade!

 

[jims]

A photo of bitterbrush before spraying getting choked out by cheatgrass. Notice the dense cheatgrass fine fuels!

 

[jims]

Mountain mahogany growth after Esplanade was aerial sprayed

 

[Hiker of the Woods]

Has Esplanade been approved for the Forest Service and BLM to use? Are they using it anywhere?

 

[Tikka]

Thanks for the great information jims!!! I’m going to buy some and do a test area on my in-laws place...

 

[elkassassin]

I Knew that Question was coming!

The USFS & BLM will Spend Billions on a Study that takes 30 Years!

Just make sure your Feed is certified when taking your Horses on to USFS/Primitive!

Has Esplanade been approved for the Forest Service and BLM to use? Are they using it anywhere?

 

[elkassassin]

Will it Kill Marijuana?

They're growing it here now!

Maybe We could Thin it out a little?

 

[jims]

It's not on either of the Feds lists yet. It will be a real shame if it isn't! Every opportunity you have I would pressure them because they sure are dragging their feet. It's a shame when Esplanade is such a great, safe tool to use. It would be amazing in the preservation and improvement of sage grouse habitat! There may have been research applications sprayed on BLM in Wyoming and elsewhere but I'm not 100% sure?

Tikka, glad to hear you are planning on trying it out! If you have any questions let me know. I'm sure you will be impressed!

From my understanding marijuana is an annual plant that reproduces by seed. There is the chance that Esplanade would control it.

 

[jims]

One thing I have noticed in the large scale areas where I've sprayed Esplanade is that those areas are like ice cream to muledeer! The sprayed areas are almost like "food plots" used for whitetails and are a year-round magnet for muledeer feed. In early spring through early summer when there is fresh growth the deer hit those areas just as hard as in the fall and winter. This is especially true if surrounding areas have dense stands of cheatgrass with few native forbs and poor shrub growth. Obviously the larger the areas you can spray the better because the deer hammer the Esplanade sprayed areas so hard!

There is significant perennial grass response so it's also great for elk! We are also finding the same thing is true with increase use by pollinators, ground nesting birds, and other wildlife. A win-win for wildlife! Anyway, you can probably tell I'm super excited about this!

 

[mevertsen]

It seems to me that the best way to increase buck numbers in the field is to reduce the number if bucks being killed. If the number or ratio of bucks being killed by point number has stayed consistent for several years, then I would think as tag numbers get reduced, that ratio of class of bucks killed would stay about the same.

Where I am in NV, we have a fairly low density deer herd, with few tags. I hunt all winter, and am in the hills all spring summer and fall.

I see good ratios of bucks to does and fawns, and I see all age classes of deer all the time.

The kicker is that there are few tags.

But cutting tags would take away from opportunity. And that would piss off the people that demand a rifle runt hunt tag every year.

I fail to understand how implementing a point restriction without cutting tags would help a deer herd.

I killed a big 2x3 during archery last year. He has been the same for at least two years, only a bit bigger this year. He was spreading bad genetics. Now he is not. A 4 point APR would have prevented him from being killed. He may have been legal during a 3 point APR.

I am also not a trophy hunter, and am an opportunity hunter. I like deer meat, so I kill a deer that makes me happy. And I still see all age classes of deer all year.

 

[Bluehair]

Ok, here's the wet blanket. It may be common knowledge, but I'm curious about jims association with this product. If you don't have association with Esplanade's manufacture, sale, or application (which seems obvious) then I apologize.

Count me as cautious when it comes to spraying chemicals across the landscape. Esplanade is brought to you by Bayer, the same people who brought you roundup. At $1000 a gallon I won't be ordering any anytime soon. It sounds like the cadillac of herbicides though.

The cheatgrass in our pj's is starting to turn green.

 

[jm77]

I fail to understand how implementing a point restriction without cutting tags would help a deer herd.

I killed a big 2x3 during archery last year. He has been the same for at least two years, only a bit bigger this year. He was spreading bad genetics. Now he is not. A 4 point APR would have prevented him from being killed. He may have been legal during a 3 point APR.

What we have seen with the 3 point restriction is an immediate increase in post season yearling buck numbers. This area is not managed for trophy bucks, but for opportunity. It has a week long season and hard to access public land. It works.

That 3x2 buck you killed is absolutely legal in a 3 point restriction. It is 3 points on either antler.

 

[rocky2track]

The short term 3pt restriction over here in Region G & H looks like it has worked. I think that trial period was suppose to end for this year's hunting season. G&F statement below.

“Overall, the results of the survey were encouraging when compared to results being observed after the severe 2017 winter,” said Fralick. “The buck:doe ratio continued to rebound for the second consecutive year with a total of 41 bucks:100 does, which is a substantial increase from the 30 and 32 bucks:100 does observed in 2017 and 2018, respectively.”

High fawn survival after the 2018 winter likely led to the highest proportion of yearling bucks observed since 2015. “We expected buck ratios to bounce back once we had a couple years separating us from the 2017 winter, which resulted in a higher proportion of fawns surviving the winter and being recruited into the population,” said Fralick.

 

[rocky2track]

After reading this I talked to a buddy at our local weed & pest office. Here in Sublette Co. they have sprayed Esplanade on 2 experimental areas with cheatgrass that also are heavy deer and elk habitats during migration and winter. Early results are promising, but like you said, the main hangup is waiting for the grazing label to be approved. It's also very expensive.

One thing I have noticed in the large scale areas where I've sprayed Esplanade is that those areas are like ice cream to muledeer! The sprayed areas are almost like "food plots" used for whitetails and are a year-round magnet for muledeer feed. In early spring through early summer when there is fresh growth the deer hit those areas just as hard as in the fall and winter. This is especially true if surrounding areas have dense stands of cheatgrass with few native forbs and poor shrub growth. Obviously the larger the areas you can spray the better because the deer hammer the Esplanade sprayed areas so hard!

There is significant perennial grass response so it's also great for elk! We are also finding the same thing is true with increase use by pollinators, ground nesting birds, and other wildlife. A win-win for wildlife! Anyway, you can probably tell I'm super excited about this!

 

[jims]

I'm pretty sure the Esplanade grazing label will be good to go sometime this summer! Grass biomass is dramatically increased with cheatgrass control so that's great news for cattle ranchers....and elk as well!