Muzzleloader sights

[elkhuntn247]

Hey guys,

I’m looking to start hunting some of the CO muzzleloader deer hunts. I’ve been looking at sight options for my gun. I was pretty set on a set of Williams sights. But this would require some fitting, as well as drilling and tapping my barrel, or building a new brake with a dove tail cut in it. Not a big deal.

Then I came across the SeeAll open sights. I’ve seen them before but caught my attention this time. I’ve done a bit of research as far as legality in CO. Lots of conflicting opinions if they are legal or not. “SeeAll” themselves claim they are legal. By the way I read CO regulations I would say it’s legal. At least the fiber optic model. The tritium model I wouldn’t think is legal.

if any of you guys have first hand knowledge on this sight I’d love to know. Would just be nice to be able to change out the scope and sight for wherever I’m hunting.

out of the CO regs:
-
Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Fiber optics
and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal. Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.

 

[txhunter58]

I asked the question directly to the CPW. They said NOT LEGAL

 

[elkhuntn247]

I asked the question directly to the CPW. They said NOT LEGAL

Well dang! The ruling is just so vague. With it being an “open, fiber optic sight” it almost fits. It’s hard when the company claims legality. But I figured someone would know here. Not that I think anyone would gain any advantage from this, just an easy route to take for trying to make a gun CO legal ?

 

[elkhuntn247]

Plan B... cut a new brake with a dovetail mount and toss a Lyman globe on it ??

 

[elks96]

The issue is the fact that even open it is still using a form of magnification. That would likely be the issue that pushes it over the legal thresh hold.

 

[buckhorn]

Plan B... cut a new brake with a dovetail mount and toss a Lyman globe on it ??

View attachment 34957

Yes and get the globe with the lowest base height. I think it’s the .491
It’s just under 1/2 inch.

 

[buckhorn]

Yes and get the globe with the lowest base height. I think it’s the .491
It’s just under 1/2 inch.

Instead of a dovetail notch in the barrel I use a 12 gauge shotgun ramp with a dove tail and the .491 globe.

 

[SureShot]

I asked the question directly to the CPW. They said NOT LEGAL

I did too and they said it was legal. I guess it depends who you ask...

It meets all of the criteria in the regs: open sight, no artificial light, no batteries, no electronics, no magnification.

 

[elkhuntn247]

Instead of a dovetail notch in the barrel I use a 12 gauge shotgun ramp with a dove tail and the .491 globe.

I would do a ramp, but I don’t want it on my barrel. If I build a new brake and mount it to that, then I can swap it out when I’m hunting in scoped states.

 

[elkhuntn247]

I did too and they said it was legal. I guess it depends who you ask...

It meets all of the criteria in the regs: open sight, no artificial light, no batteries, no electronics, no magnification.

I agree with you 100%

I sent an email to Muzzle-loaders.com, because they sell the sight and figured they may know about it. They said they are not aware of a regulation that would make it illegal.

I also sent an email to SeeAll to see if they had any resources that we don’t.

SeeAll response:
“Hello
Colorado will not give us a letter saying it is Legal. Some of the officers say it is, and some say it isn’t.”

the way the regs are wrote in the guidebook and in Chapter 3, it’s 100% up to interpretation. You could argue the a peep and globe sight doesn’t fit the law just as much as the see all.

 

[buckhorn]

I would do a ramp, but I don’t want it on my barrel. If I build a new brake and mount it to that, then I can swap it out when I’m hunting in scoped states.

Here’s my front site set up with the shotgun ramp. It’s fairly low profile.

 

[buckhorn]

Williams peep sight on the rear

 

[Homer]

I would not expect much accuracy with that SeeAll sight's very short sight radius.....

 

[elkhuntn247]

I would not expect much accuracy with that SeeAll sight's very short sight radius.....

I just got it in the mail and tossed it on a rifle sitting in my safe that doesn’t have a scope. Picked a few objects to aim at out to 300 yards. Honestly think I could have hit them all with it. My muzzleloader only has around 15”-17” of drop at 300 yards(based upon 11000’). So I think it would be very accurate out to 250 yards.

I think a peep and globe would be more accurate. But if you could prove this sight legal it would be a quick way to take your gun to Colorado.

I’m gonna dive down the rabbit hole a bit on it and get the hard laws and definitions, not what the hand book says, nor some pencil pusher in Denver. Cause the way the hand book is wrote it’s a legal option.

 

[elkhuntn247]

If I can/can’t prove it legal I’ll report back here what I find for other guys that may have an interest in the sight

 

[txhunter58]

I did too and they said it was legal. I guess it depends who you ask...

It meets all of the criteria in the regs: open sight, no artificial light, no batteries, no electronics, no magnification.

I asked in an email and got my answer in writing. Was yours just in a conversation or in writing? Because different person different answer, I would want it in writing, and would carry that with me when I hunted. I was pretty interested in it because my eyes have trouble focusing on the front sight.

I seem to remember he said it was not legal because of the “lens”. But I tried to find the email and cant. I also wish they would make no magnification (1X) scopes legal.

They also say that the peep sights on bows that have a clarifying lens in it are not legal. They say it is a “scope”

If you get a reply in writing that says it’s legal, I would very much like a copy!

 

[elkhuntn247]

I asked in an email and got my answer in writing. Was yours just in a conversation or in writing? Because different person different answer, I would want it in writing, and would carry that with me when I hunted. I was pretty interested in it because my eyes have trouble focusing on the front sight.

I seem to remember he said it was not legal because of the “lens”. But I tried to find the email and cant. I also wish they would make no magnification (1X) scopes legal.

They also say that the peep sights on bows that have a clarifying lens in it are not legal. They say it is a “scope”

If you get a reply in writing that says it’s legal, I would very much like a copy!

its kinda a bunch of BS how some states game and fish handle things. we should be able to go off the readily available information provided to us the hunter, IE the guidebook. in accordance with the guide book this would be a legal open sight. if they wanted no lenses it should say "no lens", as it says "no sabots", ect. its left completely to you the hunter for your interpretation.

cause its like what is an "open sight" or even "iron sights". I have seen multiple people argue that peep sights are not legal in CO. which I would say are completely legal.

I am in the midst of researching CO state laws and definitions on a legislative level. Based of the guidebook and the physical regulations in chapter 3 there is nothing saying you cannot use this sight. Everything I have seen other people post on legality is based off whoever's opinion they talk to at CPW.

 

[elkhuntn247]

IAW: 2 CCR 406-2

Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket with any sighting device other than open or “iron” sights is prohibited.
Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to the muzzle-loading firearm.

Still back to what constitutes "open sight"?

So far IMO... If anyone was cited while using this sight, you would beat the hell out of CPW in court. they know it. they are very clear about what is "prohibited". nothing says its prohibited.

 

[txhunter58]

Definition of open sight:

a firearm rear sight having an open notch

The seeall sight doesn’t really meet that def. and it certainly isn’t an iron sight, whereas my peep sight would meet the definition of Iron sight.

I want it to be legal too, but I can’t see it meets the regs as written.

 

[SureShot]

I asked in an email and got my answer in writing. Was yours just in a conversation or in writing? Because different person different answer, I would want it in writing, and would carry that with me when I hunted. I was pretty interested in it because my eyes have trouble focusing on the front sight.

I seem to remember he said it was not legal because of the “lens”. But I tried to find the email and cant. I also wish they would make no magnification (1X) scopes legal.

They also say that the peep sights on bows that have a clarifying lens in it are not legal. They say it is a “scope”

If you get a reply in writing that says it’s legal, I would very much like a copy!

Mine was just a phone call two or three years ago. No proof in writing...I didn't think I needed it until now.

 

[txhunter58]

“Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.“

It also says this. And if they consider a verifier lens in a bow a “scope” (which they do) I have to assume they would consider this one as well

 

[buckhorn]

Is a peep sight considered an iron sight?

 

[SureShot]

“Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.“

It also says this. And if they consider a verifier lens in a bow a “scope” (which they do) I have to assume they would consider this one as well

I'm no expert, but I think there's a key difference. If I understand correctly, you can seen through a verifier lens. However, you cannot see through a See All sight. It completely obscures the target beyond.

 

[elkhuntn247]

“Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.“

It also says this. And if they consider a verifier lens in a bow a “scope” (which they do) I have to assume they would consider this one as well

my SeeAll has all kinds of notches in it haha. the problem is that is some random Wikipedia blanket statement. CO should have their own definition. by their regs on most things it says what you "can" and "cannot" have. even with sights.

with archery equipment, there is nothing saying you cant have the verifier peep, at least in the handbook. multiple states have a glossary of definition that defies everything. have yet to find it for CO.

It comes back to some pencil pushers opinion, and physical law.

If I had to bet there are many SeeAll sights on the hill in CO, as well as verifier peeps. not saying there arent any catching citations haha... but most guys dont dig too deep into regulations ?

 

[elkhuntn247]

Is a peep sight considered an iron sight?

Is definitely an iron sight. Ive seen it argued before that its not. and can be argued the same way a SeeAll is. comes down to defining what is what

 

[txhunter58]

There is a lens on the see all sight that focuses the aiming point like a scope. It even adjusts for parallax. So the aiming apparatus is in the lens even though the aiming point on an animal is just above.

Not arguing just to argue. I WANT it to be legal. But I don’t think it is.

Send the central office an email and ask them. A local office or game warden and give you one answer but go straight to the top in Denver.

 

[txhunter58]

This is the person I will try and contact:

-- Bradley Gabrielski Communication Center Wildlife Coordinator

Gabrielski - DNR, Bradley <[email protected]>

 

[txhunter58]

At least with the verifier peep I have heard there is a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Because it doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb. Hard to not see the SeeAll

But I have seen it in writing that the verifier is considered a “scope”. Don’t ask me if I have one on my bow......

 

[elkhuntn247]

At least with the verifier peep I have heard there is a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Because it doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb. Hard to not see the SeeAll

But I have seen it in writing that the verifier is considered a “scope”. Don’t ask me if I have one on my bow......

I think you'd have to be a pretty choice officer to cite someone for a see all or a verifier.

I mean the see all says "open sight" on the box... seems legit to me ??‍

 

[txhunter58]

Give it a shot and tell us how it works out..........

 

[elkhuntn247]

Give it a shot and tell us how it works out..........

I just might ? If it's just a ticket that's fine... if they wanna take my gun it's not fine.

 

[txhunter58]

Or your elk..../

 

[elkhuntn247]

Or your elk..../

My gun is a .45 so I'll have to visit elk another day ? Deer this year for me

 

[graybird]

I've been check by my local GW ... no issues. Also a friend in the NW part of the state asked his local GW ... no issues. If the GW have no issues using the SeeAll, neither do I.

Good luck

 

[elkhuntn247]

I've been check by my local GW ... no issues. Also a friend in the NW part of the state asked his local GW ... no issues. If the GW have no issues using the SeeAll, neither do I.

Good luck

Thanks for the feedback Graybird. ?

 

[Paradox]

This could be important!
I can’t use a bow due to shoulder replacement.
need to figure out how to set up a crossbow without a scope, this looks like it would be ideal.
please let us know what you find out.
Ed

 

[fallguy]

This could be important!
I can’t use a bow due to shoulder replacement.
need to figure out how to set up a crossbow without a scope, this looks like it would be ideal.
please let us know what you find out.
Ed

You don't want to use a 1x scope as allowed with a crossbow permit?

 

[Paradox]

You don't want to use a 1x scope as allowed with a crossbow permit?

Well damn! I’m just looking into it, I didn’t know that. Thank you, that would make it easier!

 

[elktaker]

I

Williams peep sight on the rear

View attachment 34987

I have a Williams peep and can hit a 10” gong at 250 yards with the fine crossair in the globe and I have the quick adjust nobe for elevation.

 

[txhunter58]

How do you see the crosshair at dusk?

 

[buckhorn]

I

I have a Williams peep and can hit a 10” gong at 250 yards with the fine crossair in the globe and I have the quick adjust nobe for elevation.

I think that sight set up is about as good as it gets for open sights.
I tried a couple different 1x scopes on my Muzzy but I could see the target better with that open sight set up.

 

[txhunter58]

I also tried that but couldn’t see the crosshairs in low light.

 

[whiteantlertip]

I painted my crosshairs with neon green paint, really helps in low light , better than white , works great on my CVA accura LR

 

[txhunter58]

Brand name? What did you buy specifically?

 

[whiteantlertip]

lyman .404 low base globe with 17 series Lee Shaver crosshair plate LS001 rear peep with shim so was dead on at a150 yards

 

[txhunter58]

No, I meant the specific paint ?. I have all the components but in don’t use the crosshairs because I can’t see them

 

[whiteantlertip]

I just use Krylon neon green , only takes a dab to do it, spray in cup and use fine artist brush Thought you needed it all

 

[txhunter58]

Do you just put a dot of it at the intersection or pant the entire crosshairs?

 

[whiteantlertip]

I center dot, also have one down about 1/3 for my 200 yd mark , you have to build that up a couple specs of paint at a time . my center dead on at 150 yd

 

[txhunter58]

Cool. Thx

 

[whiteantlertip]

hope that works for ya , let me know

 

[txhunter58]

I had tried white fingernail polish and that didn’t do enough.

 

[buckhorn]

I had tried white fingernail polish and that didn’t do enough.

I tried White and Orange but black works the best for me.
I modified the Lee shaver inserts. Grind out the original center posts and soldered in some very thin wire crosshairs. Works good!

 

[fallguy]

I tried White and Orange but black works the best for me.
I modified the Lee shaver inserts. Grind out the original center posts and soldered in some very thin wire crosshairs. Works good!

I tried white and went back to black. Can you post a pic of your modified crosshairs? Thanks.

 

[buckhorn]

I tried white and went back to black. Can you post a pic of your modified crosshairs? Thanks.

I don’t have the gun handy right now but it looks just like factory crosshairs except a bit thinner. I have a friend that works in an electronic shop and he did it with some very thin copper wire using some hi tech soldering equipment.

 

[elktaker]

I

I have a Williams peep and can hit a 10” gong at 250 yards with the fine crossair in the globe and I have the quick adjust nobe for elevation.

I agree!

 

[tracker12]

I

I have a Williams peep and can hit a 10” gong at 250 yards with the fine crossair in the globe and I have the quick adjust nobe for elevation.

How is this sight in low light

 

[elktaker]

How is this sight in low light

Depends on how good your eyes are. It's not the best but can be improved a little bit by painting a little white dot on the crossair.

 

[elkhuntn247]

For those interested I did contact CPW about the see all sight. Doesn’t look like it’s gonna be a viable option. Or at least a fight any of us want to really fight. I’m just gonna cut a dovetail in my muzzle brake for a globe sight, and Williams peep on the rear.

 

[txhunter58]

Pretty much the same letter he sent me, I just couldn't find it.

 

[Paradox]

Crap! I was really hoping for a different answer as I have the Acura v2 mr w no holes for mounting sights. Guess I’m in the market for a new gun?

 

[easyelk13]

I needed a peep sight too, called Williams and they are backordered by over 1000. Muzzleloaders.com has a peep sight made by E.ARTHUR BROWN in stock that mounts in the scope mount holes on an Acura. Model #127-813.

 

[elkhuntn247]

Crap! I was really hoping for a different answer as I have the Acura v2 mr w no holes for mounting sights. Guess I’m in the market for a new gun?

A decent smith can drill and tap your barrel no problem. Probably wouldn’t cost hardly anything.

 

[Ynothunt41]

I needed a peep sight too, called Williams and they are backordered by over 1000. Muzzleloaders.com has a peep sight made by E.ARTHUR BROWN in stock that mounts in the scope mount holes on an Acura. Model #127-813.

Did they say when they were going to get more in?

 

[easyelk13]

Williams has no idea as they are so far behind. Thousands backordered. Muzzleloaders .com has peep sights in stock.

 

[Ynothunt41]

Williams has no idea as they are so far behind. Thousands backordered. Muzzleloaders .com has peep sights in stock.

Thank you. I was hoping to get one if I drew my muzzy tag. I might have to go to plan B.

 

[Paradox]

A decent smith can drill and tap your barrel no problem. Probably wouldn’t cost hardly anything.

Yeah, thanks.
if I can find a decent Smith.
may be easier to trade in the gun?

 

[elkhuntn247]

Yeah, thanks.
if I can find a decent Smith.
may be easier to trade in the gun?

Where are you located

 

[Paradox]

Where are you located

Upstate (read rural) New York.

 

[Adventurewriter]

I would put it on the company to try and get a more solid view or answer...they have lots more dogs in the hunt and their business could hinge on it

 

[grosventrehunter]

Mine was just a phone call two or three years ago. No proof in writing...I didn't think I needed it until now.

If you were in Utah and an outfitter hunting sheep this would probably work.

Buckhorn, what muzzy is your peep on, and did you have to notch out part of your stock to make it work? The picture appears that you did.

 

[buckhorn]

If you were in Utah and an outfitter hunting sheep this would probably work.

Buckhorn, what muzzy is your peep on, and did you have to notch out part of your stock to make it work? The picture appears that you did.

It’s on one of the original Remington model 700ml.
Yes I did have to notch the stock and also I had to drill and tap the mounting holes.

 

[elkhuntn247]

Upstate (read rural) New York.

Yeah I can’t help you there ? I was gonna say if you were close to Utah I know several great gun smiths

 

[Paradox]

Yeah I can’t help you there ? I was gonna say if you were close to Utah I know several great gun smiths

Thanks anyway, I’ll figure something out.
after all, you cant have too many guns right??
may have to have one set up for scope and one for open sights. that would actually be easier than switching depending on where I can draw a tag??