My 3rd season observations

BenHuntn

Active Member
Messages
528
For the last 2 seasons I have noticed the 3rd season bucks are getting younger and younger. I have hunted 3000 acres of private ground in Unit 3 for 7 years now. We always seem to harvest or see bucks chasing doe's in the 170 to 180 range. The past 2 season's the vast majority of bucks chasing doe's are 2 and 3 points. They seem to be 2 and 3 year old bucks. I am trying to figure out what has changed. The season is at the right time for the rut, The same amount of hunters for 2nd and 3rd season on the ranch. I am thinking that with the new 5 year plan most of the older and mature bucks have been taken out. I hope that the CPW in the next 5 year plan goes back to the previous season dates. What are your observations this year?
Thanks,
Julius
 

1989Cohunter

Active Member
Messages
673
Pretty much the same thing I’ve seen. I ussually will see some smokers chasing on private at least. This year is way different. With the exception of one dandy all the bigger bucks I’ve seen have been 2-3 year old deer. The only good thing I’ve seen is the numbers seem to be decent. And the elk are ridiculous this year.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
A couple of years ago the CWD prevalence in the NW was above 20%, huge die offs. CPW have moved the seasons later and increased buck harvest to remove the older age class deer going forward as they seem to be the ones that are carrying the highest percentage of CWD prions. This is a statewide approach in addressing CWD, not exactly new news, everyone gets caught up in the late dates and forgets the reasoning behind it...
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
6,642
A couple of years ago the CWD prevalence in the NW was above 20%, huge die offs. CPW have moved the seasons later and increased buck harvest to remove the older age class deer going forward as they seem to be the ones that are carrying the highest percentage of CWD prions. This is a statewide approach in addressing CWD, not exactly new news, everyone gets caught up in the late dates and forgets the reasoning behind it...
We’ve had lengthy discussions here about all those thousands and thousands of deer carcasses littering the landscape.

Down here they all get packed off in the back of a pickup.
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,661
A couple of years ago the CWD prevalence in the NW was above 20%, huge die offs. CPW have moved the seasons later and increased buck harvest to remove the older age class deer going forward as they seem to be the ones that are carrying the highest percentage of CWD prions. This is a statewide approach in addressing CWD, not exactly new news, everyone gets caught up in the late dates and forgets the reasoning behind it...
Huge die offs???? BS. I've not herd of any unit having huge die offs that wasn't the result of a bad winter.
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
A couple of years ago the CWD prevalence in the NW was above 20%, huge die offs. CPW have moved the seasons later and increased buck harvest to remove the older age class deer going forward as they seem to be the ones that are carrying the highest percentage of CWD prions. This is a statewide approach in addressing CWD, not exactly new news, everyone gets caught up in the late dates and forgets the reasoning behind it...
Yeah a bunch of BS in this. No the CWD was never 20 percent. It only reached that high if they used a small same
Size in specific areas. It was skewed data. It was only 20 percent in mature bucks in specific areas

It is just a Bs sand which they tried feeding people so that they could experiment and get federal money…
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
For the last 2 seasons I have noticed the 3rd season bucks are getting younger and younger. I have hunted 3000 acres of private ground in Unit 3 for 7 years now. We always seem to harvest or see bucks chasing doe's in the 170 to 180 range. The past 2 season's the vast majority of bucks chasing doe's are 2 and 3 points. They seem to be 2 and 3 year old bucks. I am trying to figure out what has changed. The season is at the right time for the rut, The same amount of hunters for 2nd and 3rd season on the ranch. I am thinking that with the new 5 year plan most of the older and mature bucks have been taken out. I hope that the CPW in the next 5 year plan goes back to the previous season dates. What are your observations this year?
Thanks,
Julius
been COWs plan now for years. Before we had JT to stop this Bs. They give him the axe, they move to late season dates, they artificially inflate the CWD infection numbers, they adjust the herd objectives and the net result is the slaughter of thousands of deer. With a specific target on the older mature mule
Deer.

Oh and I don’t see them changing the season date as it was hunters who said they wanted longer wait times between seasons. So the dates went later because hunters said they wanted longer breaks between the seasons. So now we have the breaks.
 

hawkbill

Very Active Member
Messages
2,625
It is and was well known Colorado was going to take out the older age class Deer and issue more tags. I hunted the Basin last year and burned a lot of points, I let the two 180 class bucks live that I saw , looking for something special and I ate my tag. I ran into a lot of big Buck hunters out there after the second day they were all shooting young bucks. 95% of hunters are going to kill a 180 class Deer which I do not consider a trophy, it’s a nice Buck but not a trophy. We are in the day of opportunity hunting, there will be a few giants killed in Colorado this year, PRCnut smoked a real trophy this year. You want big Deer, you can’t shoot young Deer!
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
6,642
So, what would that population distribution look like if we cut tags in half and went forkies only for a couple years?

There’s a reason the trophy farms cull young bucks.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
been COWs plan now for years. Before we had JT to stop this Bs. They give him the axe, they move to late season dates, they artificially inflate the CWD infection numbers, they adjust the herd objectives and the net result is the slaughter of thousands of deer. With a specific target on the older mature mule
Deer.

Oh and I don’t see them changing the season date as it was hunters who said they wanted longer wait times between seasons. So the dates went later because hunters said they wanted longer breaks between the seasons. So now we have the breaks.
I'm not saying I agree with the current management of the deer herd, but I personally saw loads of sick deer over a period of a couple years and have been kicking up hundreds of dead bodies. (not winter killed) Completely ruined some of my favorite areas. Now they are killing the few deer left to keep it from spreading, not cool. And no they weren't mass murdered by some sharp shooter from the DOW in a chopper....

That being said, if you think it's not real and deer don't die from it in droves, go back to fantasy camp.... You probably think EHD and Blue tongue aren't real and don't kill deer either.

Yes, they've totally F'ed the deer herd, I'm not happy about it. They should have just let it rebound on it's own. Fairly certain its been around for decades.
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
I'm not saying I agree with the current management of the deer herd, but I personally saw loads of sick deer over a period of a couple years and have been kicking up hundreds of dead bodies. (not winter killed) Completely ruined some of my favorite areas. Now they are killing the few deer left to keep it from spreading, not cool. And no they weren't mass murdered by some sharp shooter from the DOW in a chopper....

That being said, if you think it's not real and deer don't die from it in droves, go back to fantasy camp.... You probably think EHD and Blue tongue aren't real and don't kill deer either.

Yes, they've totally F'ed the deer herd, I'm not happy about it. They should have just let it rebound on it's own. Fairly certain its been around for decades.
Where in NW colorado were you seeing tons of sick deer and bodies? Do you have proof of this?

I worked directly with the on going studies in unit 22. The loss of deer due to diseases was nonexistent. The infection rate of CWD in Unit 22, which is the migration destination for over 12 other units was under 3% for CWD.

The data I saw showed that disease was not an issue at all. I am not aware of anyone including the CPW managers in the NW that were seeing “sick” deer and tons of dead animals.

I would love to see evidence to support this claim. I would like to know the specific locations where this occurred.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
The answer is Yes…

However I don't have the time or energy to argue with you. History doesn’t bode well for that if you look through your posts through time. Every place you go you brag about being a steward for wildlife, how its the greatest place to live and hunt… until its not… The proverbial internet d!ck measuring competition.. well played. I’m done. You can go about saving the deer herd for all of us that don’t have a clue..

I’d whip mine out, but I’m a little more classy than that…
 

elkmo41

Active Member
Messages
258
Cwd was identified in the 60’s. If it was so contagious and deadly, the deer and elk would be gone by now.

CWD and “controlling” it is the “In Thing” with game and fish departments all across America lately. Some have the resources to research it and initiate a action plan. Most don’t and instead of recreating the wheel are using guidance from the states that have. Weather it’s the correct action or not, it’s all coming from the same play book.

Google what Wisconsin did a few decades ago in a vain attempt to stop Cwd. It’s still there, they still have a strong herd and positive cwd cases are as high as ever. This will go full circle with conservation departments giving up the battle and the deer and elk will carry on.
 

El Gringo

Active Member
Messages
878
Where in NW colorado were you seeing tons of sick deer and bodies? Do you have proof of this?

I worked directly with the on going studies in unit 22. The loss of deer due to diseases was nonexistent. The infection rate of CWD in Unit 22, which is the migration destination for over 12 other units was under 3% for CWD.

The data I saw showed that disease was not an issue at all. I am not aware of anyone including the CPW managers in the NW that were seeing “sick” deer and tons of dead animals.

I would love to see evidence to support this claim. I would like to know the specific locations where this occurred.


+1

I have found dead deer from winter kills, and I saw one very sick bull Elk in the Gila in NM, years ago….. I’ve run around these “CWD hotspots” a fair bit, and I call BS, on any population level losses.
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
The answer is Yes…

However I don't have the time or energy to argue with you. History doesn’t bode well for that if you look through your posts through time. Every place you go you brag about being a steward for wildlife, how its the greatest place to live and hunt… until its not… The proverbial internet d!ck measuring competition.. well played. I’m done. You can go about saving the deer herd for all of us that don’t have a clue..

I’d whip mine out, but I’m a little more classy than that…
Haha. So no evidence? I have been all over the NW corner and never saw piles of dead deer. I was genuinely curious as you are literally the only person I have crossed paths with that said they saw groups of dead deer. I have in NW Colorado killed one mule deer buck with CWD all the way back in like 2006 or so. I have found one bull that tested positive.

I also worked with the CPW when they were collected all the road killed heads. And I was in FT Collins in late 90s when they killed all the mule deer. Again even when it was at its worse I never seen a ton of dead deer.

I truly wanted to know because no one else I have crossed had claimed to see such an event.

I also challenge this, how is it that unit 22 ran under 3% infection rate?

And in the Nw corner unit 10 has arguably the oldest age class of deer in the NW corner, and has the highest buck to doe ratio, yet it does not have the CWD?

Or just north in WY, in the general WY units the age class tends to be older than in 3, 4, 5… And yet they have hardly any CWD. definitely no claims of 20 percent and no mass die offs.

Now I will say this. There were pockets 2 years ago where we saw some EHD issues. I know a few animals that had that issue but again enough to make most even notice…

Thanks for providing information, it helped make
Others understand…
 

MrDoe

Active Member
Messages
177
I will admit, I'm a pessimist. But I think this year was the beginning of the end for big CO bucks. Heading the way of Idaho.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
Where in NW colorado were you seeing tons of sick deer and bodies? Do you have proof of this?

I worked directly with the on going studies in unit 22. The loss of deer due to diseases was nonexistent. The infection rate of CWD in Unit 22, which is the migration destination for over 12 other units was under 3% for CWD.

The data I saw showed that disease was not an issue at all. I am not aware of anyone including the CPW managers in the NW that were seeing “sick” deer and tons of dead animals.

I would love to see evidence to support this claim. I would like to know the specific locations where this occurreContinue to
Haha. So no evidence? I have been all over the NW corner and never saw piles of dead deer. I was genuinely curious as you are literally the only person I have crossed paths with that said they saw groups of dead deer. I have in NW Colorado killed one mule deer buck with CWD all the way back in like 2006 or so. I have found one bull that tested positive.

I also worked with the CPW when they were collected all the road killed heads. And I was in FT Collins in late 90s when they killed all the mule deer. Again even when it was at its worse I never seen a ton of dead deer.

I truly wanted to know because no one else I have crossed had claimed to see such an event.

I also challenge this, how is it that unit 22 ran under 3% infection rate?

And in the Nw corner unit 10 has arguably the oldest age class of deer in the NW corner, and has the highest buck to doe ratio, yet it does not have the CWD?

Or just north in WY, in the general WY units the age class tends to be older than in 3, 4, 5… And yet they have hardly any CWD. definitely no claims of 20 percent and no mass die offs.

Now I will say this. There were pockets 2 years ago where we saw some EHD issues. I know a few animals that had that issue but again enough to make most even notice…

Thanks for providing information, it helped make
Others understand… You are also the guy that was asking about the latest happenings on the Wyoming task force because you didn't pay attention today?

Name the other 12+ units that make unit 22 their migration destination? No? ....why? you can't... because that's a load of crap. I call BS...prove me wrong.?

Ahhhhhh... come on .... write it down... so everyone can see how sharp you are.... or maybe you're just making crap up.

So I lied... maybe I will stoop to your level..:devilish: You know that there's a metric crap ton of research on migration in Colorado and I'm about to cram it down your throat....;)
 

yotebuster17

Active Member
Messages
302
So, what would that population distribution look like if we cut tags in half and went forkies only for a couple years?

There’s a reason the trophy farms cull young bucks.
Trophy farms don’t cull young bucks. They cull older bucks with poor genetics.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
Huge die offs???? BS. I've not herd of any unit having huge die offs that wasn't the result of a bad winter.


Yes I am right, go ahead and prove me wrong. You won't because you can't.


Homophones are words that sound the same but mean different things. They might even be different parts of speech.

Heard and herd are homophones that can both function as verbs, but only one of them is a noun. Do you know which one it is?

Never mind, continue to lecture me on transmissible prion diseases and the animals living in my "backyard" so to speak...
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,206
Here is an observation that you’ll mostly get used to. It sounds foreign and sarcastic, but after decades of having mature buck expectations, and now you have few…… if not very few, you will get used to it.

The following are the future conversations you can expect to hear in the coming years. Copy these, and prove me wrong……. I would love it if I was.

Trophy hunting is unethical.

Hunters just want the opportunity to hunt, what they kill is way down the list of what the expect to get from the hunt.

Mature buck eat valuable habitat that is needed for healthy does and fawn populations. They NEED to be removed and never be allowed to waste forage ever again.

Fawn survival is all that matters, bucks don’t have fawns!!!!!

Every unit has mature bucks, park that fricking truck and get off the road a few miles.

Outfitters and guides kill 99% of the big bucks.

Quit living in the past, everybody has had a belly full of guys b!tching about all the big bucks you old men used to shoot.

We can never have big bucks again, everything has changed and it will never be like that again.

Mature buck hunters have ruined Colorado mule deer hunting, obviously. And don’t blame the State’s biologists, they are the professionals and know better than you arm chair quarterbacks.

Please don’t ask me how I know!
 

JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,661
Homophones are words that sound the same but mean different things. They might even be different parts of speech.

Heard and herd are homophones that can both function as verbs, but only one of them is a noun. Do you know which one it is?

Never mind, continue to lecture me on transmissible prion diseases and the animals living in my "backyard" so to speak...
That's all you got??? An English lesson. Here I can do the eye roll emoji too. 🙄

Now smarty pants tell me there has been huge die offs caused by CWD and then show some proof. Or continue with your English lessons.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
That's all you got??? An English lesson. Here I can do the eye roll emoji too. 🙄

Now smarty pants tell me there has been huge die offs caused by CWD and then show some proof. Or continue with your English lessons.

Science is science, buddy. Do I really need to write a dissertation on the effect of disease on a population? Mother Nature has taken care of itself for a couple billion years, it uses disease as a means of population control. Tularemia, bubonic plague. EHD. Blue tongue. Mad cow disease. Scabies, pneumonia, whirling disease in trout. CWD too. Know what they have in common? Diseases that are obviously not good for concentrations of creatures and have high mortality rates. It's going to continue until the end of time, you can't stop it. I can continue the list if you like, there are literally thousands of diseases and the list grows daily. They found most of these diseases in captive populations of animals. Weird, right? But wild animals are way different and the don't die from that. Domestic sheep don't cause disease in Wild sheep...I can use :rolleyes: too. Disease transmission is fake. :rolleyes: Because CWD never killed those deer and elk in pens in the 80's and 90's. :rolleyes: Wild deer don't die from CWD. :rolleyes: I shoot only giant deer. :rolleyes:

Fact is... I've seen deer die from CWD. I've pulled buttloads of spinal samples/lymphnodes myself that tested positive Fact is... CWD is always fatal, question is do they die from other causes (including old age) first.? Fact is CWD has a incubation phase, but when it takes hold, it goes fast.. Would I eat CWD infected meat, for now I would until research proved otherwise, pretty sure I have.

Cancer was killing craploads of people before we knew what cancer was. Does it mean it doesn't exist? or it's mumbo jumbo because you don't know anyone that's died from it?

You and elks96 are too busy trying to shove your tinfoil hat BS down everyone's throat. You live in Utah, he bailed to another state, which is also way better than Colorado, just ask. Neither of you really give a **** about anything than your own self indulgences/opinions. You talk **** about CO, but yet you still buy tags to hunt here because the CPW have ruined the deer herd due to a fake disease. Hypocrite. Drink the cool-aid or don't, you can't have both.


I also think the deer management is crap also.... but we have a bunch of experts on the Wildlife commission that think science is also BS....just ask your local biologist...
 
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JakeH

Long Time Member
Messages
3,661
Science is science, buddy. Do I really need to write a dissertation on the effect of disease on a population? Mother Nature has taken care of itself for a couple billion years, it uses disease as a means of population control. Tularemia, bubonic plague. EHD. Blue tongue. Mad cow disease. Scabies, pneumonia, whirling disease in trout. Know what they have in common? Diseases that are obviously not good for concentrations of animals. It's going to continue until the end of time. I can continue the list if you like, there are literally thousands of diseases and the list grows daily.

Cancer was killing craploads of people before we knew what cancer was. Does it mean it doesn't exist? or it's mumbo jumbo because you don't know anyone that's died from it?


You and elks96 are too busy trying to shove your tinfoil hat BS down everyone's throat. You live in Utah, he bailed to another state, which is also way better than Colorado, just ask. Neither of you really give a **** about anything than your own self indulgences/opinions. You talk **** about CO, but yet you still buy tags to hunt here because the CPW have ruined the deer herd due to a fake disease. Hypocrite. Drink the cool-aid or don't, you can't have both.
I never said it was fake, and I have lived less than 30 miles from Colorado for my entire life, I spend a ton of time over there. Have some deer died from CWD yep, has it killed off large portions of the herd? Nope. Is it as a big a threat as they are trying to make it out to be? I don't think so, it's not tin foil hat, it's common sense. I asked you for proof of these large CWD die offs you still got Nothing.

Ohh, and just because I hunt over there doesn't make me a hypocrite, I hunt as many places as I can every year. So because I have a negative opinion on the way CPW is managing the herd I'm not allowed to hunt over there??? Your arguments are very poor. The fact you keep trying to belittle me is proof of that, let your arguments speak for themselves. The fact you can't is a clear sign you have a losing argument.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
I never said it was fake, and I have lived less than 30 miles from Colorado for my entire life, I spend a ton of time over there. Have some deer died from CWD yep, has it killed off large portions of the herd? Nope. Is it as a big a threat as they are trying to make it out to be? I don't think so, it's not tin foil hat, it's common sense. I asked you for proof of these large CWD die offs you still got Nothing.

Ohh, and just because I hunt over there doesn't make me a hypocrite, I hunt as many places as I can every year. So because I have a negative opinion on the way CPW is managing the herd I'm not allowed to hunt over there??? Your arguments are very poor. The fact you keep trying to belittle me is proof of that, let your arguments speak for themselves. The fact you can't is a clear sign you have a losing argument.
So you spend a good amount of time in 3,4,5? You should take a field trip further from the border some time. There are some spots you can't walk through washes without tripping over carcasses. Blame it on winters, its been a while... 2008, 2012... It was still pretty decent hunting following those massive winter die-off's and that was real winter kill not disease.

Specifically Bakers peak, Pole gulch and all the northern drainages of unit 3, fly creek, fortification, great divide, Black mesa. Northern half of 4. Walk the gulches a couple miles north of Baggs in Wyoming. The very far northwest corner of 2.

I'm not saying there's very little CWD prevalence in 1,10,21,22,11,211. Just saying its real as **** where I'm at...I know, I live here every single day of my life, it kills deer along with many other things. I have a friends that have raised game animals since the 80's... it ends up in their pens, it's game over...they die, or the state kills them and burns them...
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522

A skinny little bull from the dinosaur area. Surely he’s just a light eater, looks totally fine and healthy. He’ll make it. Okay, maybe he died..🤷🏽‍♂️ It was surely the snow.
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
Name the other 12+ units that make unit 22 their migration destination? No? ....why? you can't... because that's a load of crap. I call BS...prove me wrong.?
Ahhhhhh... come on .... write it down... so everyone can see how sharp you are.... or maybe you're just making crap up.

So I lied... maybe I will stoop to your level..:devilish: You know that there's a metric crap ton of research on migration in Colorado and I'm about to cram it down your throat....;)
deer migrate into 22 from units 21, 31, 32, 33, 23, 11, 211, 12, 13, 231, 131 14 and 15…. This was all from data and radio collars used in 22. granted not all deer in all those units went the same migration. But there is proof that some deer in all those units will migrate all the way into 22…

We had deer in 22 summer
In all those units and end up in 22….

Of course the majority came from 21, 11, 211, 12, 32, 23, 231, but a few came from as far away as east of oak creek…
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
So you spend a good amount of time in 3,4,5? You should take a field trip further from the border some time. There are some spots you can't walk through washes without tripping over carcasses. Blame it on winters, its been a while... 2008, 2012... It was still pretty decent hunting following those massive winter die-off's and that was real winter kill not disease.

Specifically Bakers peak, Pole gulch and all the northern drainages of unit 3, fly creek, fortification, great divide, Black mesa. Northern half of 4. Walk the gulches a couple miles north of Baggs in Wyoming. The very far northwest corner of 2.

I'm not saying there's very little CWD prevalence in 1,10,21,22,11,211. Just saying its real as **** where I'm at...I know, I live here every single day of my life, it kills deer along with many other things. I have a friends that have raised game animals since the 80's... it ends up in their pens, it's game over...they die, or the state kills them and burns them...
Haha… So now you are an expert on CWD in WY side as well? Sorry but the Baggs side of the deer herd are doing fine. Unless you have data to prove the professional biologist wrong?
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
Haha… So now you are an expert on CWD in WY side as well? Sorry but the Baggs side of the deer herd are doing fine. Unless you have data to prove the professional biologist wrong?
So you spend a good amount of time in 3,4,5? You should take a field trip further from the border some time. There are some spots you can't walk through washes without tripping over carcasses. Blame it on winters, its been a while... 2008, 2012... It was still pretty decent hunting following those massive winter die-off's and that was real winter kill not disease.

Specifically Bakers peak, Pole gulch and all the northern drainages of unit 3, fly creek, fortification, great divide, Black mesa. Northern half of 4. Walk the gulches a couple miles north of Baggs in Wyoming. The very far northwest corner of 2.

I'm not saying there's very little CWD prevalence in 1,10,21,22,11,211. Just saying its real as **** where I'm at...I know, I live here every single day of my life, it kills deer along with many other things. I have a friends that have raised game animals since the 80's... it ends up in their pens, it's game over...they die, or the state kills them and burns them...
You claim CWD kills other things? What else does CWD kill? Hell it does not even infect and kill pronghorn.

Spent plenty of time north of Baggs, actually spend around 50+ days a year north of Baggs. Never seen any mass die offs other than the heavy winters when the snow was drifted over 6 foot deep, had a crust and it was cold…

Also did see some EHD in the area 2 years ago but that is not CWD…
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
FYI… Here is a pic of the infection rate in the Baggs area. This color represents a 5-10 percent infection rate for mule deer… however this is based on voluntary sampling which inflates the percentage as people are most likely to have animals tested if they think something is off…

Also another question, even in the areas where the CPW found high infection rates the rates were only high in mature bucks. So it would stand to reason that the high numbers of dead deer from CWD wild be mature bucks. Were you finding mature bucks in piles?

B2BF027A-F39A-4053-99D2-C859AFE84D9B.png
 

one_dryboot

Long Time Member
Messages
4,837
I’ve noticed the same as the OP ona unit I’ve hunted for 15 years. Spent 12 days last year 3rd season and saw one buck over 150s which I killed(190) 10 days this year 3rd season in the same unit. This year was perfect conditions snow and cold, rutting bucks and Never saw a buck over 160s. Sad to see Colorado go down hill
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
Name the other 12+ units that make unit 22 their migration destination? No? ....why? you can't... because that's a load of crap. I call BS...prove me wrong.?

deer migrate into 22 from units 21, 31, 32, 33, 23, 11, 211, 12, 13, 231, 131 14 and 15…. This was all from data and radio collars used in 22. granted not all deer in all those units went the same migration. But there is proof that some deer in all those units will migrate all the way into 22…

We had deer in 22 summer
In all those units and end up in 22….

Of course the majority came from 21, 11, 211, 12, 32, 23, 231, but a few came from as far away as east of oak creek…
Now you're reaching... 99.999% of the deer east of the flattops go elsewhere.... and a good portion of the deer in the flattops go North, South and east as well.... tell me I'm wrong?

You forgot 10 by the way... I'll give you 1 for free...
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
Also another question, even in the areas where the CPW found high infection rates the rates were only high in mature bucks. So it would stand to reason that the high numbers of dead deer from CWD wild be mature bucks. Were you finding mature bucks in piles?
A couple seasons ago during second season we passed a number of sick bucks with my kids. You could've walked up and stuck a knife in them...droopy ears, skinny, stumbling, drooling... coincidentally the very same year that the numbers went through the roof.

Everyone keeps talking about the mass slaughter of all these giant bucks with the dates.. yet it never happens... where are all those mature bucks? oh yeah... winter kill...the unseasonable weather... the rut wasn't on... :rolleyes:

I could also tell you what happened with the WY Task Force, but its so much sweeter knowing you have no idea what's going on in your own state...:ROFLMAO:
 
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coloradoman

Very Active Member
Messages
1,621
I'm not saying I agree with the current management of the deer herd, but I personally saw loads of sick deer over a period of a couple years and have been kicking up hundreds of dead bodies. (not winter killed) Completely ruined some of my favorite areas. Now they are killing the few deer left to keep it from spreading, not cool. And no they weren't mass murdered by some sharp shooter from the DOW in a chopper....

That being said, if you think it's not real and deer don't die from it in droves, go back to fantasy camp.... You probably think EHD and Blue tongue aren't real and don't kill deer either.

Yes, they've totally F'ed the deer herd, I'm not happy about it. They should have just let it rebound on it's own. Fairly certain its been around for decades.
Hundreds of dead deer?
BS
 

Togwotee

Long Time Member
Messages
5,884
After spending the entire 3rd season in 66 these are my observations.

It's not worth the 24 points I burnt on it. but it was fun I saw good numbers of immature bucks every day. I hunted daylight until dark every day all over the unit and never saw a buck that would come close to 180. maybe one 170. a couple 160 at best. lots of 150 type bucks and many of those were dead by the end of season.

The rut was not nearly as advanced as I expected, the bucks were ready but the does weren't. large groups of does with dinks or no bucks at all.

The excuse the bucks were still high won't fly. we went up to the Powderhorn trail heads a couple times and even in the old snow there were no deer tracks up high. they started where the snow thinned and went to the river.

We stayed in town and in addition to the hunters I saw on the hill I talked to lots at the motel and restaurant from all the Gunnison units. it didn't matter who or where the story was the same, where are the mature bucks.

I had fun and the country is beautiful. all the hunters I met , mostly residents were as friendly as you could hope for, I felt very welcome and it is much appreciated.

I'm sure a nice buck or two was taken but I didn't see one or hear of any. the biggest takeaway I left with is this, it ain't what it used to be and all the talk of how it's declined is not as exaggerated as I'd hoped.
 

coloradoman

Very Active Member
Messages
1,621
So you spend a good amount of time in 3,4,5? You should take a field trip further from the border some time. There are some spots you can't walk through washes without tripping over carcasses. Blame it on winters, its been a while... 2008, 2012... It was still pretty decent hunting following those massive winter die-off's and that was real winter kill not disease.

Specifically Bakers peak, Pole gulch and all the northern drainages of unit 3, fly creek, fortification, great divide, Black mesa. Northern half of 4. Walk the gulches a couple miles north of Baggs in Wyoming. The very far northwest corner of 2.

I'm not saying there's very little CWD prevalence in 1,10,21,22,11,211. Just saying its real as **** where I'm at...I know, I live here every single day of my life, it kills deer along with many other things. I have a friends that have raised game animals since the 80's... it ends up in their pens, it's game over...they die, or the state kills them and burns them...
Walk through drainages tripping over carcasses BS
tell me a drainage and I and many other MMers will meet you there to prove your point
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
Walk through drainages tripping over carcasses BS
tell me a drainage and I and many other MMers will meet you there to prove your point
Pretty sure I did tell you some of the drainages... you quoted it in your response. Maybe focus on your reading skills. You'll need them to use a map, to read the words printed on it to find said drainages...

As far as taking you and several other people to my spots... your IQ is dropping by the minute....
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,206
After spending the entire 3rd season in 66 these are my observations.

It's not worth the 24 points I burnt on it. but it was fun I saw good numbers of immature bucks every day. I hunted daylight until dark every day all over the unit and never saw a buck that would come close to 180. maybe one 170. a couple 160 at best. lots of 150 type bucks and many of those were dead by the end of season.

The rut was not nearly as advanced as I expected, the bucks were ready but the does weren't. large groups of does with dinks or no bucks at all.

The excuse the bucks were still high won't fly. we went up to the Powderhorn trail heads a couple times and even in the old snow there were no deer tracks up high. they started where the snow thinned and went to the river.

We stayed in town and in addition to the hunters I saw on the hill I talked to lots at the motel and restaurant from all the Gunnison units. it didn't matter who or where the story was the same, where are the mature bucks.

I had fun and the country is beautiful. all the hunters I met , mostly residents were as friendly as you could hope for, I felt very welcome and it is much appreciated.

I'm sure a nice buck or two was taken but I didn't see one or hear of any. the biggest takeaway I left with is this, it ain't what it used to be and all the talk of how it's declined is not as exaggerated as I'd hoped.
Another observation. 47 years worth, in a State that was once a mule deer mecca.

It’s a process Tog.

After the State issues enough tags, the very largest, oldest, most mature bucks are killed first. Most hunters (not all but most) will kill a mature buck before they kill a younger buck. After the majority of the oldest bucks are gone, the 170” to 150” become the targeted buck. (Naturally….. because hunters generally will kill the largest buck they can find and as Tog and those he spoke to said, “there are no big bucks”, so………… most hunters will kill the next to the biggest bucks, because that the biggest they can find.

That’s where Colorado is this year.

Probably take another two years before the 170” / 160” bucks are mostly gone, like the big bucks are gone this year. In three years, the targeted bucks will be the three year olds, because that’s all left.

By the 2026 or 2027 season, Colorado hunters will be targeting yearlings and a handful of two year old. Unless regulated otherwise, hunters will kill whatever there is to kill. With in 5 to 7 years, if they continue to sell the same number of tags.

From that point forward, 99% of the harvest will be year old bucks and it will stay that way, no matter how good the habitat, predator, highway, disease control, the primary harvest will be yearling bucks.

Disease, predators, habitat, road kill, etc. are clearly a negative impact on all mule deer. Hunters kill more bucks than all the other combined reasons bucks die.

Bottom line, without resorting back to pre-current management in Colorado, the mule deer hunting there will be the same as it is in Utah right now. But a lot of Utah folks believe that’s the moral and responsible thing to do.

Just my wildly bias opinion, your investment experience my produce different results, but it’s not going to take too much longer to see if I’m right or wrong.
 
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coloradoman

Very Active Member
Messages
1,621
Pretty sure I did tell you some of the drainages... you quoted it in your response. Maybe focus on your reading skills. You'll need them to use a map, to read the words printed on it to find said drainages...

As far as taking you and several other people to my spots... your IQ is dropping by the minute....
Lol what a tool
 

bubba

Member
Messages
48
Went to Colorado for the first time in the 3rd season. My 13 year old son had a tag in the Meeker area. Coming from California my observation with Colorado is its on its way to becoming California. California most guys shoot the first legal 2 point they see. What I observed in Colorado is everyone is just filling tags. The old saying "meat in the freezer". Colorado is heading in a downward direction. The amount of young bucks being killed to holy **** the orange army fling bullets left and right. I seen a huge lack of sportsmanship in the woods. My opinion way to many hunters in the field and one time. Drove threw a couple other units and the same thing people every where.. I'll be burning my points next year because there is no reason to hold out anymore. I hope something changes.... Colorado use to be the Mule deer trophy stated, i know there is still some good ones out there but they will be hard to come by.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
I figured you wouldn’t show me your obvious BS
I don't know what you're trying to prove? I'm going to show you a bunch of carcasses (they don't actually die in piles but are scattered over large areas), (realistically hundreds of dead deer are a small percentage of the overall population but it's still mass die off, especially when it's a bunch of mature bucks in the same season for a couple years) you're going to say its winter kill and CWD is BS. I'm going to say we've had several easy winters. You're going to say where's all the heads... I'm going to say that I picked up a bunch of heads, others have been picked up by other shed hunters. I'm going to say a bunch of sarcastic crap back to you. You're going to tell me I'm stupid...You're gonna tell me how you know all about biology and how to manage the herd. I'm going to roll my eyes and say something snarky. You're going to turn red and want to punch me in the face...

Nothing's going to change. FACT.

I've seen an obscene number of sick deer over the past 5 years, less now that they are dead. How do I prove that? Just rewind my memory and screen share it to the TV?
 
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elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
A couple seasons ago during second season we passed a number of sick bucks with my kids. You could've walked up and stuck a knife in them...droopy ears, skinny, stumbling, drooling... coincidentally the very same year that the numbers went through the roof.

Everyone keeps talking about the mass slaughter of all these giant bucks with the dates.. yet it never happens... where are all those mature bucks? oh yeah... winter kill...the unseasonable weather... the rut wasn't on... :rolleyes:

I could also tell you what happened with the WY Task Force, but its so much sweeter knowing you have no idea what's going on in your own state...:ROFLMAO:
I know all about what is happening with the task force…
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
I know all about what is happening with the task force…
Just curious, did the task force decide to move ahead with increasing the special price licenses?

I was unable to watch the meeting, but I did take a few minutes to look at the public comment to the question.

It appeared that there were 200+ comments against and like 30 for the move. Figured this would be good enough they might support it…

Anything else they went over that raised a red flag?
Yeah.... okay...
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
Now you're reaching... 99.999% of the deer east of the flattops go elsewhere.... and a good portion of the deer in the flattops go North, South and east as well.... tell me I'm wrong?

You forgot 10 by the way... I'll give you 1 for free...
Read the comment again. I said we know that deer migrate into 22 from those units. Never said all deer. But 22 is a great mixing point and as a result the prevelance of CWD should
Be higher as they would get deer from all
Over that I. Theory would bring in more CWD.

Also you never mentioned the other animals you have seen sick with CWD? You said you had friend that got it in pins and killed other animals?

Also you know that most deer that die from CWD do so in isolation. That CWD affects every deer different and that one deer might live a year with CWD and other Deer might live 7 years with CWD. Since it is would be almost impossible for deer to contract the disease at the same time, and the fact that time to death is so carried, it wuld be impossible for there to piles of dead deer from CWD.

Did you call in all the sick bucks you claim
To have seen? Do you know for a fact they had CWD or are you just assuming any deer not healthy had CWD?
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
Yeah.... okay...
Haha, the last task
Force meeting was just a couple days ago. It was not broadcast like normal and I was not able to attend. I will watch the meeting once they post the video.

But that hardly pertains to anything regarding CWD and the fact that you are the only person to find piles of dead deer from CWD… No one else has seen said phenomena…
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
Haha. That is one animal, not a pile. Not hundreds. It could also be a host of other issues as well. Did you report this bull and was it tested?
Right... You asked... I conveniently just happened to have a recent video on my phone... it's CWD positive. Elk are your other animal BTW. You're beating a dead horse, just like you did when you served on the round table. You wonder why no one supported any of your crap. You argued with biologist, RFW this, landowner tags that... even when the biologists told you it was a necessary evil to manage populations on large tracts of land. You argued with landowners. You argued with outfitters, guides. If you really knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't have been ignored by all of them...
 
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elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
Boy
Right... You asked... I conveniently just happened to have a recent video on my phone... it's CWD positive. Elk are your other animal BTW. You're beating a dead horse, just like you did when you served on the round table. You wonder why no one supported any of your crap. You argued with biologist, RFW this, landowner tags that... even when the biologists told you it was a necessary evil to manage populations on large tracts of land. You argued with landowners. You argued with outfitters, guides. If you really knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't have been ignored by all of them...
Boy I sure live in your head if you are going all the way back to the round table.

But yes I argued against RFW and I still do. RFW is a sham and it is sickening that it is still allowed and around. Also argued hard against transferable land owner tags. I think that everyone except the wealthy wpuld
He better off with both the RFW and transferable landowner tags gone…

Funny there are many states that are managing wildlife without such landowner and outfitter well fare…

Haha. You sure go back a long ways…

Kind of petty and a sign that you post an argument when all you do is dig up other personal attacks…

So you had that elk tested? There is nothing else it could have been?
 

JakeSwensen

Active Member
Messages
571
The answer is Yes…

However I don't have the time or energy to argue with you. History doesn’t bode well for that if you look through your posts through time. Every place you go you brag about being a steward for wildlife, how its the greatest place to live and hunt… until its not… The proverbial internet d!ck measuring competition.. well played. I’m done. You can go about saving the deer herd for all of us that don’t have a clue..

I’d whip mine out, but I’m a little more classy than that…
Post these sick animals and show all of us non believers.
 

coloradoman

Very Active Member
Messages
1,621
I don't know what you're trying to prove? I'm going to show you a bunch of carcasses (they don't actually die in piles but are scattered over large areas), (realistically hundreds of dead deer are a small percentage of the overall population but it's still mass die off, especially when it's a bunch of mature bucks in the same season for a couple years) you're going to say its winter kill and CWD is BS. I'm going to say we've had several easy winters. You're going to say where's all the heads... I'm going to say that I picked up a bunch of heads, others have been picked up by other shed hunters. I'm going to say a bunch of sarcastic crap back to you. You're going to tell me I'm stupid...You're gonna tell me how you know all about biology and how to manage the herd. I'm going to roll my eyes and say something snarky. You're going to turn red and want to punch me in the face...

Nothing's going to change. FACT.

I've seen an obscene number of sick deer over the past 5 years, less now that they are dead. How do I prove that? Just rewind my memory and screen share it to the TV?
Thanks for proving my point!
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,303
The quantity and quality has been on a decline in 3/301 for several years now. I blamed it on a bad winter a few years ago, but I'm sure there are a lot of factors that go into it. I think it's really tough for a deer herd to recover from a hard winter anymore.
 

RRCowboyStar

Active Member
Messages
235
Just spent the 3rd season in 68/681 helping a friend look for a bull. I have hunted these units for 15 years and haved taken some nice deer over the years. The past 2 years have been a slaughter. We saw (2) Mature bucks, both on private that do not let anyone hunt.
Several camps with young bucks hanging. Large groups of does with no bucks around.
If something dosent change fast, there won't be any bucks to breed the does.
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
Boy

Boy I sure live in your head if you are going all the way back to the round table.

But yes I argued against RFW and I still do. RFW is a sham and it is sickening that it is still allowed and around. Also argued hard against transferable land owner tags. I think that everyone except the wealthy wpuld
He better off with both the RFW and transferable landowner tags gone…

Funny there are many states that are managing wildlife without such landowner and outfitter well fare…

Haha. You sure go back a long ways…

Kind of petty and a sign that you post an argument when all you do is dig up other personal attacks…

So you had that elk tested? There is nothing else it could have been?
Not really... You don't remember me because I sat quietly listening to what everyone had to say, while you interrupted everyone including the CPW guys, to tell them they were wrong about everything. A decade later....same BS. I'm not going down another rabbit hole with you arguing about RFW and landowner tags.

I spent 365 days a years, for 20+ years guiding/working for those ranches and hunting all over, working with the biologists you argued with, doing counts, habitat improvement, CWD sampling/testing. My life was been based on knowing exactly where those herds, eat, sleep, sh!t, and screw. I spent 5 months a year Sept-Jan following those specific herds In the NW from summer to winter range and made a great life doing so. Initially maybe a couple animals a year tested positive, which morphed into close to a 1:5 in localities. When it was low... I never really saw sick animals. When it was high it became a lot more common to see sick animals. Coincidence? CWD was not exactly good for business in my industry... but its real...

Do I think it will wipe out a herd.... No.... Do I think we should wipe em out... No Do I argue with the people at the CPW making decisions based on science.... No Does CWD kill efficiently when you group bunches of prion carrying ungulates together, AB- SO-EFFIN -LUTELY. It's a very slow onset disease, tough to monitor, You don't see it often, unless you are out there every single day...

I thought that elk seemed like may have possibly have had CWD. The guy didn't give a ****, shot it anyways because of the big set of horns on its head... It got tested, he got the congratulatory letter saying it was positive, don't eat it copy and paste bullshit letter that everyone gets....

You can say I'm full of BS... I'd expect nothing less, you're such a likeable fellow...
 

elks96

Long Time Member
Messages
3,225
Not really... You don't remember me because I sat quietly listening to what everyone had to say, while you interrupted everyone including the CPW guys, to tell them they were wrong about everything. A decade later....same BS. I'm not going down another rabbit hole with you arguing about RFW and landowner tags.

I spent 365 days a years, for 20+ years guiding/working for those ranches and hunting all over, working with the biologists you argued with, doing counts, habitat improvement, CWD sampling/testing. My life was been based on knowing exactly where those herds, eat, sleep, sh!t, and screw. I spent 5 months a year Sept-Jan following those specific herds In the NW from summer to winter range and made a great life doing so. Initially maybe a couple animals a year tested positive, which morphed into close to a 1:5 in localities. When it was low... I never really saw sick animals. When it was high it became a lot more common to see sick animals. Coincidence? CWD was not exactly good for business in my industry... but its real...

Do I think it will wipe out a herd.... No.... Do I think we should wipe em out... No Do I argue with the people at the CPW making decisions based on science.... No Does CWD kill efficiently when you group bunches of prion carrying ungulates together, AB- SO-EFFIN -LUTELY. It's a very slow onset disease, tough to monitor, You don't see it often, unless you are out there every single day...

I thought that elk seemed like may have possibly have had CWD. The guy didn't give a ****, shot it anyways because of the big set of horns on its head... It got tested, he got the congratulatory letter saying it was positive, don't eat it copy and paste bullshit letter that everyone gets....

You can say I'm full of BS... I'd expect nothing less, you're such a likeable fellow...
Haha. Thanks for the compliments. I don’t care much if I am like-able. If you recall the purpose of the round table was for the members to bring up issues that the public voiced concerned about. At the time and there is still a lot wrong with RFW. Through my efforts and the efforts of other outfitters and landowners around the RFW properties we saw some changes, minimal but they did help some. For example the idea that they had to hunt some animals during the regular rifle season and not allow them the harbor as much.

As for your work, I am sure you worked for one of the RFW properties that ran 2 lines of electric fence to keep the elk in, and you were likely one of the guys that sat in a truck and then go cut a herd off before it left the property after a client shot. Or maybe you were the guide that only allowed a hunter one shot and watched for over an hour while a downed bull flopped in the field with a broken spine… Not allowing g another shot until the main herd was turned back onto the property. Haha, you likely are also all in favor of the public hunter who took a decade to draw the RFW tag not getting full access to the property and also loved it when the public hunter hiked in a mile to have an elk shot out from under them by a paying client who was drove up the same hill in and shot from a heated truck… or you are likely totally fine with one of the RFW controlling several 1000 acres of of public land and that the state considered it a violation for anyone other than the RFW clients to hunt that BLM land…

As for that conversation, the biologist was claiming that without the welfare for the wealthy ranchers and the tags for their rich clients all that hunting would be lost, all that land would be developed. Which simply is not true. There are many big ranches that are not gifted the welfare that RFW are and they are still open and they are still hunting…

But again, the entire purpose of the round table was not to sit and be quiet in the corner. It was to present the issues and the concerns of the people from your area…

I also find it interesting that you just like the biologist were sucking g off the welfare tit that is RFW. Still don’t have a clue who you are, but you have some cool stories and literally no proof of your claims…

Been a fun chat, but again I would love to see your proof of all the dead mature bucks on the range? Do you a bunch of dead head a you found? I mean if you found a pile of dead mature bucks, you should have an impressive collection of dead heads…

So do you have a pile of dead heads that supports the mass die offs? Or did you just let all those dead heads lay?
 

sneakem

Active Member
Messages
522
We know their "reasons".. We just don"t buy it
That's fine... If you read carefully you'll also read that I don't necessarily buy into the way its been handled...
Haha. Thanks for the compliments. I don’t care much if I am like-able. If you recall the purpose of the round table was for the members to bring up issues that the public voiced concerned about. At the time and there is still a lot wrong with RFW. Through my efforts and the efforts of other outfitters and landowners around the RFW properties we saw some changes, minimal but they did help some. For example the idea that they had to hunt some animals during the regular rifle season and not allow them the harbor as much.

As for your work, I am sure you worked for one of the RFW properties that ran 2 lines of electric fence to keep the elk in, and you were likely one of the guys that sat in a truck and then go cut a herd off before it left the property after a client shot. Or maybe you were the guide that only allowed a hunter one shot and watched for over an hour while a downed bull flopped in the field with a broken spine… Not allowing g another shot until the main herd was turned back onto the property. Haha, you likely are also all in favor of the public hunter who took a decade to draw the RFW tag not getting full access to the property and also loved it when the public hunter hiked in a mile to have an elk shot out from under them by a paying client who was drove up the same hill in and shot from a heated truck… or you are likely totally fine with one of the RFW controlling several 1000 acres of of public land and that the state considered it a violation for anyone other than the RFW clients to hunt that BLM land…

As for that conversation, the biologist was claiming that without the welfare for the wealthy ranchers and the tags for their rich clients all that hunting would be lost, all that land would be developed. Which simply is not true. There are many big ranches that are not gifted the welfare that RFW are and they are still open and they are still hunting…

But again, the entire purpose of the round table was not to sit and be quiet in the corner. It was to present the issues and the concerns of the people from your area…

I also find it interesting that you just like the biologist were sucking g off the welfare tit that is RFW. Still don’t have a clue who you are, but you have some cool stories and literally no proof of your claims…

Been a fun chat, but again I would love to see your proof of all the dead mature bucks on the range? Do you a bunch of dead head a you found? I mean if you found a pile of dead mature bucks, you should have an impressive collection of dead heads…

So do you have a pile of dead heads that supports the mass die offs? Or did you just let all those dead heads lay?
There you go... the smell of despair. For the record, I'm the guy that advocated to a certain small group of people they could access that land legally, the parcels worth pursuing. I'm a big advocate for public lands, I hunt them all the time. I don't make the rules... the filming permit with the BLM, and flying a chopper in was the nail in the coffin and then it was politics and lawyers and government agencies. I quit guiding for them shortly after that, because I thought the whole thing was BS. I call BS on 99% of you're other claims too...

If you weren't such a jerk, I would have also offered my assistance free of charge when you had the unit 2 tag. You would have likely killed a great bull and not had to cry about how crappy the hunt was, and how you got screwed... an offer I've extended to a bunch of people because I just love to hunt...

Sorry to the moderator about the edited ****.
 
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SS!

Long Time Member
Messages
6,897
Not really... You don't remember me because I sat quietly listening to what everyone had to say, while you interrupted everyone including the CPW guys, to tell them they were wrong about everything. A decade later....same BS. I'm not going down another rabbit hole with you arguing about RFW and landowner tags.

I spent 365 days a years, for 20+ years guiding/working for those ranches and hunting all over, working with the biologists you argued with, doing counts, habitat improvement, CWD sampling/testing. My life was been based on knowing exactly where those herds, eat, sleep, sh!t, and screw. I spent 5 months a year Sept-Jan following those specific herds In the NW from summer to winter range and made a great life doing so. Initially maybe a couple animals a year tested positive, which morphed into close to a 1:5 in localities. When it was low... I never really saw sick animals. When it was high it became a lot more common to see sick animals. Coincidence? CWD was not exactly good for business in my industry... but its real...

Do I think it will wipe out a herd.... No.... Do I think we should wipe em out... No Do I argue with the people at the CPW making decisions based on science.... No Does CWD kill efficiently when you group bunches of prion carrying ungulates together, AB- SO-EFFIN -LUTELY. It's a very slow onset disease, tough to monitor, You don't see it often, unless you are out there every single day...

I thought that elk seemed like may have possibly have had CWD. The guy didn't give a ****, shot it anyways because of the big set of horns on its head... It got tested, he got the congratulatory letter saying it was positive, don't eat it copy and paste bullshit letter that everyone gets....

You can say I'm full of BS... I'd expect nothing less, you're such a likeable fellow...

😂😂😂. Just remember he’s a teacher.
 

El Gringo

Active Member
Messages
878
I will admit, I'm a pessimist. But I think this year was the beginning of the end for big CO bucks. Heading the way of Idaho.
If that’s the case, that’s because of Rifles…. That can be fixed with Management strategies, IMO
 

El Gringo

Active Member
Messages
878
Here is an observation that you’ll mostly get used to. It sounds foreign and sarcastic, but after decades of having mature buck expectations, and now you have few…… if not very few, you will get used to it.

The following are the future conversations you can expect to hear in the coming years. Copy these, and prove me wrong……. I would love it if I was.

Trophy hunting is unethical.

Hunters just want the opportunity to hunt, what they kill is way down the list of what the expect to get from the hunt.

Mature buck eat valuable habitat that is needed for healthy does and fawn populations. They NEED to be removed and never be allowed to waste forage ever again.

Fawn survival is all that matters, bucks don’t have fawns!!!!!

Every unit has mature bucks, park that fricking truck and get off the road a few miles.

Outfitters and guides kill 99% of the big bucks.

Quit living in the past, everybody has had a belly full of guys b!tching about all the big bucks you old men used to shoot.

We can never have big bucks again, everything has changed and it will never be like that again.

Mature buck hunters have ruined Colorado mule deer hunting, obviously. And don’t blame the State’s biologists, they are the professionals and know better than you arm chair quarterbacks.

Please don’t ask me how I know!


This sounds like conversations that go on, around the CPW in Gunnison…. Verbatim
 

one_dryboot

Long Time Member
Messages
4,837
Just spent the 3rd season in 68/681 helping a friend look for a bull. I have hunted these units for 15 years and haved taken some nice deer over the years. The past 2 years have been a slaughter. We saw (2) Mature bucks, both on private that do not let anyone hunt.
Several camps with young bucks hanging. Large groups of does with no bucks around.
If something dosent change fast, there won't be any bucks to breed the does.
I was in the same unit the last two years 3rd. Sad to see what it was 4-5 years ago compared to now. Pretty sad
 

Colo22Hunt

Active Member
Messages
131
LO Vouchers. Now going forward, how long until the uninformed figure out there not worth half what they’ve been going for. I bet it will be awhile.
Exactly, who’s going to spend $2,000-$3,000 or more on a voucher to kill a 140 to 150 inch buck at best.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,206
Exactly, who’s going to spend $2,000-$3,000 or more on a voucher to kill a 140 to 150 inch buck at best.
Might surprise you, if that’s the best they hope to hunt. When that’s all that’s available, I’m betting they sell as many as they have to sell. Seen it happen for 35 years around here.

Where can you go to hunt bigger, for $2,000/$3,000?
 

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
30,707
I've Seen The Same BS Happen in This State!

It Just Happened Sooner Here Than it Did In Colorado!

Anytime a State Starts Managing a Game Herd For Nothing More Than F'N Money You've Got a BIG Problem!

Have We Got CWD?

Yes We Do!

Did CWD Destroy The Quality Of Our Deer Herd?

No,It Did Not!

It's What's Known as a FUBAR:

F'D!

Up!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

Bucks turned in to Buck$!

I Gave Colorado Credit For Quite a Few Years For Managing Game Herds Better Than Utah Did For a Long Time!

But They've Started The Same Kinda BS Management We Have Here!

SAD!
 

Colo22Hunt

Active Member
Messages
131

Utah mule deer hunt auction tag nets record $410K bid​

Do you really think 2-3k means squat to many hunters?
I wouldn’t spend 2-3 k to shoot a fork antlered buck. That’s what’s going to be the norm in Colorado in a few years. Yearling 2 points will be the shooters 😂
 

tailchasers

Long Time Member
Messages
4,833
Yearling 2 points will be the shooters 😂

They already are. There is a seemingly growing metro area trend toward the meat rather then the rack with a certain amount of economics coming into play as well. These folks get a couple of days in the field 1 to 2 hrs out of the city and shoot the first legal animal they see then post up on the internet how blessed they are to fill the freezer.
 

El Gringo

Active Member
Messages
878
They already are. There is a seemingly growing metro area trend toward the meat rather then the rack with a certain amount of economics coming into play as well. These folks get a couple of days in the field 1 to 2 hrs out of the city and shoot the first legal animal they see then post up on the internet how blessed they are to fill the freezer.


If only someone had the foresight to make it cool to shoot Elk and Whitetails for the table. It’s pretty hard to abuse those rats, and mountain carp
 

Colo22Hunt

Active Member
Messages
131
They already are. There is a seemingly growing metro area trend toward the meat rather then the rack with a certain amount of economics coming into play as well. These folks get a couple of days in the field 1 to 2 hrs out of the city and shoot the first legal animal they see then post up on the internet how blessed they are to fill the freezer.
If they’re spending 2-3 k on a landowner tag to do that they’re crazy. I’d take that money and buy some beef !
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,206
If they’re spending 2-3 k on a landowner tag to do that they’re crazy. I’d take that money and buy some beef !
A lot of folks would agree with you. In fact most folks, far far more people use there money to buy beef. The people spending thousands for guides, outfitter and/or land owner tags aren’t hunting nor buying the land owner tag to eat. Enjoying wild game or wanting wild game for the natural protein isn’t the reason most people spend that kind of money on landowner tags, or buy access to private ranches. (I know a few that do, but they are the acceptation not the norm.) The folks buying those tags are buying them for a myriad of reasons but the meat is way down the list. Those folks have the resources and the interest and there are way more of them than the average hunter can imagine.

Don’t misunderstand me…..I have absolutely no problem with the folks who hunt for the meat or the folks that hunt for many other reasons. No problem with how the wealthy or the less fortunate approach it, as long as they are committed to keeping large sustainable big game herds on our public and private lands. Raise them in abundance and hunt them for any reason that is honest and legal.
 

BenHuntn

Active Member
Messages
528
Might surprise you, if that’s the best they hope to hunt. When that’s all that’s available, I’m betting they sell as many as they have to sell. Seen it happen for 35 years around here.

Where can you go to hunt bigger, for $2,000/$3,000?
Colorado $200
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,206
Colorado $200
Yep you can, the question however, was asked directly to Colo22hunt, who made this comment:

“If they’re spending 2-3 k on a landowner tag to do that they’re crazy. I’d take that money and buy some beef !”

Should have made that more clear. I know you’ve been around here long enough to know, Ben.
 

Togwotee

Long Time Member
Messages
5,884
The mule deer situation sucks and I'm just going to accept it. unless I draw a great tag I'm just going to focus my attention on elk and not worry so much about it.

If Colorado can't figure mule deer out the rest of us are SOL.
 

timmy

Member
Messages
21
What l witnessed in Colorado this year was not hunting. There was a sniper on every hill if a buck popped out it got blasted. Time and time again if you saw a buck bam it got blasted. The older bucks are gone. Montana management is what I saw. Mule deer are in trouble and we aren’t doing a damn thing to help them. I will not be back unless they move the season dates. Pathetic to say the least.
 

ORIONTHEHUNTER

Very Active Member
Messages
1,187
Well hopefully all the nonresidents take note and don't think it's just a bunch of residents blowing smoke about the deer situation. It's not good and not going to get better interested to see what they do for the next five year season structure
 

jims

Long Time Member
Messages
3,298
The best thing all of us can do is to support change in the next 5 year plan. Support return to original earlier rifle season dates, lower tag quotas, and decrease or elimination of doe tags.

Using CWD as an excuse is not an option! CWD prions are in just about every corner of Colo. Predators have done a great job of killing the few sick and weak deer present for the past 40 years that CWD has existed in Colorado!
 

heywouldya

Very Active Member
Messages
1,303
If they’re spending 2-3 k on a landowner tag to do that they’re crazy. I’d take that money and buy some beef !
Every ranch in western Colorado that charges trespass fees for deer hunting will cost you easily 2-3 k. There are a lot of N.R. paying that to shoot dink bucks. Add on a L.O. tag and that gets even more expensive. But, they pay it.
 

jims

Long Time Member
Messages
3,298
In contrast, outfitters on managed properties in the eastern plains get $6,000 to upwards of $9,000+/hunter. The best outfitters have a backlog of hunters on waiting lists chomping at the bit to hunt MATURE muley bucks! The demand and price of these hunts may actually increase because outfitters can actually manage for older age structure on their private land. Western Colo is in a world of hurt with current CPW management strategies!

My guess is, in both Western Colo and eastern plains cases, if outfitters only produced forked horned bucks the demand for those hunts would drop and they eventually would drop prices?

There are going to be a lot of bummed nonresidents in the coming years that burn a pile of pts or pay a gob of $ for disappointing deer hunts in Colorado! If I was a nonres hunting Colo I certainly would be inclined to check out recent references!
 
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elkmo41

Active Member
Messages
258
I’m kinda surprised at the number of comments regarding how the mature buck numbers are down. I thought we all knew this was coming a few years ago. My family and hunting friends made it a priority to purged all our CO deer points the last few years above all other hunts. Although it didn’t produce as hoped, it was better sooner than later.
 

BenHuntn

Active Member
Messages
528
Another observation. 47 years worth, in a State that was once a mule deer mecca.

It’s a process Tog.

After the State issues enough tags, the very largest, oldest, most mature bucks are killed first. Most hunters (not all but most) will kill a mature buck before they kill a younger buck. After the majority of the oldest bucks are gone, the 170” to 150” become the targeted buck. (Naturally….. because hunters generally will kill the largest buck they can find and as Tog and those he spoke to said, “there are no big bucks”, so………… most hunters will kill the next to the biggest bucks, because that the biggest they can find.

That’s where Colorado is this year.

Probably take another two years before the 170” / 160” bucks are mostly gone, like the big bucks are gone this year. In three years, the targeted bucks will be the three year olds, because that’s all left.

By the 2026 or 2027 season, Colorado hunters will be targeting yearlings and a handful of two year old. Unless regulated otherwise, hunters will kill whatever there is to kill. With in 5 to 7 years, if they continue to sell the same number of tags.

From that point forward, 99% of the harvest will be year old bucks and it will stay that way, no matter how good the habitat, predator, highway, disease control, the primary harvest will be yearling bucks.

Disease, predators, habitat, road kill, etc. are clearly a negative impact on all mule deer. Hunters kill more bucks than all the other combined reasons bucks die.

Bottom line, without resorting back to pre-current management in Colorado, the mule deer hunting there will be the same as it is in Utah right now. But a lot of Utah folks believe that’s the moral and responsible thing to do.

Just my wildly bias opinion, your investment experience my produce different results, but it’s not going to take too much longer to see if I’m right or wrong.
I agree with everything you said. I spoke to a biologist today. We discussed CWD, The current 5 Year Plan and tag quotas for unit 3. Since 2015 where they issued about 2200 deer tags. 2022 the quota was 4325 tags, almost double. With later seasons the big old bucks will die. My one question I asked him was will they be going back to fewer tags and earlier seasons like it was before. We will see in the next 5 year plan. It all depends on the prevalence of CWD. They would like to have 5% CDW in the deer herds. I think we are at 18%. It will all depend on the manditory testing results.
 

2lumpy

Long Time Member
Messages
6,206
The loss of the North American mule deer herds have broken my heart Ben.

When I first began to worry about mule deer, in 1983, I was totally optimistic the western big managers would right the ship.

I came by that optimism after learning that earlier in the 1900’s the US population of the whitetail deer had crashed and the eastern and midwestern States were genuinely concerned that it was crashing below recover levels. By the 1980’s those Eastern/Midwestern States agencies had researched the causes and the biological/sociological nature of the whitetail deer and completely reverse the population trend and by 1983…… whitetail deer had rebounded so vigeriously they were causing so many vehicle accidents auto-insurance companies were demanding a reduction in whitetail numbers. After discussions with whitetail research sciences at Auburn University and Mississippi State University I was certain the western States could and would respond to the decline of the mule deer in the same responsible way.

After speaking with the big game scientists at Utah State University, Montana State and Brigham Young University and numerous Western State agencies, regarding the plight of the mule deer, I was stunned……. first at the out right denial and second at the hostility, not necessarily toward me and other sportsmen expressing concern but toward the whitetail research scientists and any wildlife scientist that took a vocal and public position…….. pressing for recognition and pro-action management on behalf of mule deer. This was there response for the entire period 1983 until 2018/2019 when it had become so obvious it could no longer be denied accept by the most foolish.

Hence….. my extremely negative attitude and my prediction regarding the future of mule deer, especially mature mule deer and mule deer management in general.
 

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