NASA Scientists Agree - it's real

T

TFinalshot

Guest
It think one would be hard pressed to call NASA the environmental wacko arm of this debate. . .


Winter Arctic sea ice in drastic decline

* 00:04 14 September 2006
* NewScientist.com news service
* Phil McKenna


The amount of Arctic sea ice is shrinking not only in the summer but in the winter as well, a NASA scientist reported on Wednesday. Researchers are linking the change directly to global warming.

In 2005 and 2006, the extent of winter ice was about 6% smaller than the average amount over the past 26 years. The retreat is also significantly larger than the long-term decrease of 1.5% to 2% in winter ice cover observed per decade over the same time period.

Researchers have long known that warmer temperatures have been causing more and more ice to melt during summer in the northern hemisphere, with the last four summers showing record lows in ice cover.

Now, Josefino Comiso of NASA?s Cryospheric Sciences Branch in Greenbelt, Maryland, US, has used satellite data stretching back to 1979 to show that less of the meltwater is refreezing in the wintertime.

?It is the strongest evidence yet in the Arctic of global warming,? Comiso said in a press conference on Wednesday.


Mark Serreze, a senior research scientist for the US National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado, who is not on the team, agrees. "There is lots of natural climate variability ? it is a complex science ? but the best explanation of what we are seeing is the emerging signs of greenhouse warming,? he said. ?What we see in the Arctic is a [dead] canary in the coal mine.?

?I hate to say we told you so,? Serreze said of predictions on global warming from the past five years, ?but, we told you so.?

Comiso found that from 1979 to 2004, the extent of winter ice in the Arctic remained virtually the same ? despite reductions in summer cover.

He believes the recent decline is due to a reduction in the length of the Arctic ice season and unusually warm wintertime temperatures in the region. Serreze agrees: ?What is different this year is what is happening in winter."

?If the winter ice retreat continues, the effect could be very profound ? especially for marine mammals,? Comiso says.

Polar bears, which rely on drifting ice to hunt seals, are believed to be hit especially hard by the diminishing icepack. In Canada?s Hudson Bay, the bears' population has dropped 21%, from an estimated 1200 individuals in 1989 to 950 in 2004, according to Claire Parkinson, also of NASA?s Cryospheric Sciences Branch.
 
What I don't think you are getting in this is that pretty much "everyone" agrees, the globe is getting warmer and the ice caps may be getting smaller.

The problem comes when you blame mankind for earths natural changes. The history of the earth goes way beyond the time that we have been here yet we went through a drastic global cooling and a drastic global warming. That was not due to mankind, though I bet if Gore could figure out a way to do it he would blame Americans for it.
 
"What I don't think you are getting in this is that pretty much "everyone" agrees, the globe is getting warmer and the ice caps may be getting smaller.

The problem comes when you blame mankind for earths natural changes."


I completely get it. I dont think anyone blames mandkind, in almost all cases, that I am aware of, mankind is give the credit for a part of the warming, in some cases some believe that our contributions have accelerated the warming. I'm not passing any judgement on the article or your thoughts. I do happen to believe that our actions have contributed to the earths current warming cycle. Caused it, maybe not, added to or accelerated the warming, likely. . .

Any thoughts on the subject of the article?
 
I don't dought anything stated in the article, I also don't dought that if there were zero people on earth it would still be happening.

JB
 
So what.

In a few years we will be headed into another ice age. Then what?

"I told you so, I told you so" childish scientist about to wet his pants. Rediculous.

Global warming is a political issue not a scientific one. It is all about how liberals can spin this into just how bad Capitolisim is and how it is ruining the world. It's a bunch of bunk and all about a power grab.

Now all we need is Rossie O'Donnel to tell us that Capitolism is a greater force of terrorism than Muslim extreemisim.
 
Does the Earth's atmosphere primarily behave like an actual greenhouse?

No. The term "greenhouse effect" is unfortunate since it often results in a totally false impression of the activity of so-called "greenhouse gases." An actual greenhouse works as a physical barrier to convection (the transfer of heat by currents in a fluid) while the atmosphere facilitates convection. So-called "greenhouse gases" in the Earth's atmosphere do not act as a barrier to convection so the impression of actual greenhouse-like activity in the Earth's atmosphere is wrong.

Forgetting about the unfortunate-but-commonly-used terminology for a moment, is the so-called 'greenhouse effect' bad?

Only if you think undesirable a habitable planet with relatively stable temperature. Our moon, lacking greenhouse effect, makes a kind of comparison even though lack of atmosphere makes it uninhabitable regardless of temperature. The moon's mean surface temperature by day is 107 ?C (225 ?F) and by night drops to -153 ?C (-243 ?F). The Lunar temperature increases about 260 ?C from just before dawn to Lunar noon. So, if you fancy such a temperature range then a greenhouse effect-free world is for you, otherwise you might want to be pleased we have it here on Earth.

How much does the so-called 'greenhouse effect' warm the Earth?

It's estimated that the Earth's surface would be about -18 ?C (0 ?F, 255 K) with atmosphere and clouds but without the greenhouse effect and that the (we'll call it "natural") greenhouse effect raises the Earth's temperature by ~33 ?C (59 ?F). Devoid of atmosphere it would actually be a less cold -1 ?C (272 K) because the first calculation strangely includes 31% reflection of solar radiation by clouds (which could obviously not occur without an atmosphere) while clouds actually add significantly to the greenhouse effect - for simplicity, just stick with ~33 ?C.

Theoretically, if the planet's surface cooled by radiation alone, then the greenhouse-induced surface temperature would be much warmer, about 350 K (77 ?C), but atmospheric motion (convective towers carrying latent and sensible heat upwards and large scale circulation carrying it both upwards and polewards) significantly increase the "escape" of energy to space, leaving Earth's surface more than 60 ?C cooler than a static atmosphere would do.

So, despite there being far more greenhouse gas in the atmosphere than required to achieve the current greenhouse effect, and that has been so since before humans discovered fire, evapo-transpiration and thermals transport heat higher in the atmosphere where radiation to space is increased. This is why Earth remains about 15 ?C rather than about 77 ?C.

Is 'greenhouse' the same as 'global warming'?

Absolutely not. We'll look at both terms below.

What about 'climate change' then?

That's a different thing altogether. Change is what the climate is always doing and is the result of our planet's orbital eccentricities, axial wobble, solar brightness variation, cosmic ray flux, etc.. There are also plausible terrestrial drivers of climate change too, including super volcanic events and tectonic movement, but these are not in the realm of anthropogenic (manmade) effects and so we won't looking at them here.

The global mean temperature over which there has been so much obsession is only one part of climate -- for example, how wet or dry the climate happens to be is probably of far greater significance than a simple mean temperature -- in fact, it's not even clear that a global mean temperature is a particularly useful metric. However, it is the cause of great angst at present so it will remain the focus of this document for that reason alone.

So, greenhouse is all about carbon dioxide, right?

Wrong. The most important players on the greenhouse stage are water vapor and clouds. Carbon dioxide has been increased to about 0.038% of the atmosphere (possibly from about 0.028% pre-Industrial Revolution) while water in its various forms ranges from 0% to 4% of the atmosphere and its properties vary by what form it is in and even at what altitude it is found in the atmosphere. In simple terms, however, the bulk of Earth's greenhouse effect is due to water vapor by virtue of its abundance. Water accounts for about 90% of the Earth's greenhouse effect -- perhaps 70% is due to water vapor and about 20% due to clouds (mostly water droplets), some estimates put water as high as 95% of Earth's total greenhouse effect. The remaining portion comes from carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, methane, ozone and miscellaneous other "minor greenhouse gases." As an example of the relative importance of water it should be noted that changes in the relative humidity on the order of 1.3-4% are equivalent to the effect of doubling CO2.

The adjacent radiation absorption window graphic gives an idea of which molecules absorb various wavelengths. Where the shaded portions completely span between 2 lines it indicates that particular wavelength is fully absorbed and the "window" is saturated (or said to be "closed"). Rather obviously, once a window is saturated adding more gases with the same properties will do nothing. This point seems to cause confusion for some people so perhaps consider multiple shades on a window with each shade blocking half the light coming through - pull one shade and you reduce the light source by half, pull another so you block half the light coming through the first shade, etc.. The effect of each shade diminishes as you keep adding more and eventually you get no additional effect - you have saturated or blocked the radiation window and it makes no difference if you double or quadruple the number of shades again.

Well, I heard that carbon dioxide is bad -- it's pollution, isn't it?

There seem to be a few things that your informant forgot to tell you -- like carbon dioxide being an essential trace gas that underpins the bulk of the global food web. Estimates vary, but somewhere around 15% seems to be the common number cited for the increase in global food crop yields due to aerial fertilization with increased carbon dioxide since 1950. This increase has both helped avoid a Malthusian disaster and preserved or returned enormous tracts of marginal land as wildlife habitat that would otherwise have had to be put under the plow in an attempt to feed the growing global population. Commercial growers deliberately generate CO2 and increase its levels in agricultural greenhouses to between 700ppmv and 1,000ppmv to increase productivity and improve the water efficiency of food crops far beyond those in the somewhat carbon-starved open atmosphere. CO2 feeds the forests, grows more usable lumber in timber lots meaning there is less pressure to cut old growth or push into "natural" wildlife habitat, makes plants more water efficient helping to beat back the encroaching deserts in Africa and Asia and generally increases bio-productivity. If it's "pollution," then it's pollution the natural world exploits extremely well and to great profit. Doesn't sound too bad to us.

But we're responsible for all the carbon dioxide greenhouse effect?

Gracious no! Humans can only claim responsibility, if that's the word, for abut 3.4% of carbon dioxide emitted to the atmosphere annually, the rest of it is all natural (you can see the IPCC representation of the natural carbon cycle and human perturbation here or a simple schematic from Woods Hole here). Half our estimated emissions fail to accumulate in the atmosphere," "disappearing" into sinks as yet undetermined. Humans' total accumulated carbon contribution could account for perhaps 25% of the total non-water greenhouse gases (that is, accounting for all the increase since the Industrial Revolution regardless of source and irrespective of whether warming from any cause might result in an increase in natural emission to atmosphere -- we're simply claiming the lot as anthropogenic or human-caused here).

Clarification June 4: the mention of 25% of total non-water greenhouse effect above and the following mention of 2.5% of total greenhouse effect has confused a few readers, leading to some e-mails suspecting one or the other to be a typographical error. The figures are correct. Recall that water vapor accounts for about 70% and clouds (mostly water droplets) accounts for another 20%, thus water in it's various forms is 90% of the greenhouse effect, leaving 10% for non-water greenhouse effect. Of this remaining 10%, mainly atmospheric carbon, humans might be responsible for 25% of the total accumulated atmospheric carbon, thus 0.25 x 0.1 = 0.025 x 100 = 2.5% of the total greenhouse effect.
Ah, we've added 2.5% to the total greenhouse effect then?

Not exactly, if it were such a simple accumulation, we could easily determine exactly how much Earth would warm from a doubling of atmospheric CO2 (not much) and certainly that would be an improvement on the silly figures bandied about. Theoretically, in a dry atmosphere, carbon dioxide could absorb about three times more energy than it actually does, as could clouds in the absence of all other greenhouse gases -- look at it as there already being "competition" for available suitable longwave radiation (energy these gases can absorb), if you like. Readers should be aware that the temperature effect of atmospheric carbon dioxide is logarithmic (that means there is a diminishing response as you keep adding more, like the additional window shade example, above). If we consider the warming effect of the pre-Industrial Revolution atmospheric carbon dioxide (about 280 parts per million by volume or ppmv) as 1, then the first half of that heating was delivered by about 20ppmv (0.002% of atmosphere) while the second half required an additional 260ppmv (0.026%). To double the pre-Industrial Revolution warming from CO2 alone would require about 90,000ppmv (9%) but we'd never see it - CO2 becomes toxic at around 6,000ppmv (0.6%, although humans have absolutely no prospect of achieving such concentrations).

Yep there is more but it will just bore you. Basicly it is like I said.
SO WHAT!!!!
 
Well holy hot dam, NASA says it so it MUST be true. There you have it, the debate is over.

This is rediculous. Like others have said on this and other posts, it is happening but it is anybody's guess why. EVERY year there are record breaking summer temps in every part of the country. Well guess what, there are also record breaking winter temps every year. If I remember correctly, it has snowed in Phoenix, and I think LV less than 5 years ago. Who's to say that things wont turn around abruptly or significantly and we do run into another ice age? I agree, this is mostly just a bunch of political BS when it comes down to who's doing it and what exactly is happening, and why and how.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-06 AT 08:18AM (MST)[p]Citation is important because it allows the reader, if they chose, to go to the source and find more information. It's not about the person who used the words (202 in this case,) it's a way to help the reader find more information, which, is exactly why I wanted the sources. Thanks for posting the information; it is very worth reading, not with standing the opinions or beliefs of the uninformed.

Thanks for the info. . .

As for one NASA scientist stating his opinion, my intention in pointing that out, was NOT to end the discussion. It does show, however, that one of the worlds leading scientific research organizations, (not debatable) AND an extension of the current Bush administration, reports that there is a connection between the rapid rise in the earth's temperature and humans – this admission, is contrary to the current Bush position on the issue.

Therefore, in my view, it makes it less a political issue, or at least it reduces the amount of speculation. If it were a political issue, NASA would not be able to make such contradictory statements - the white house would not allow it.
 
T said
"NASA would not be able to make such contradictory statements - the white house would not allow it."
Now this is mearly your opinion and not fact T.

"the worlds leading scientific research organizations" I can agree with you on that T. But they still need funding. Doom and Gloom gets the funding........you know that. It is all about Politics.

I remain:
SO WHAT!!!!
 
Interesting view some have on this. since you can't be 100% sure that man is responsible, let's be 100% sure we do nothing about it.
 
There is absolutly posatively nothing you can do about it. Even if you stopped every man made thing on the planet, removed every living sole from the planet, the earth would still continue to warm. Just exactly like it has done in the past. Then gues what...........it will cool again too.

So I still remain:
SO WHAT!!!
 
So what? Well, let's start with rapid sea level increases. It's worth pointing out that regardless of why or how there are temperature increases the conclusions are real, un disputable, and obvious – sea levels are rising, and will continue to rise for the predictable and foreseeable future. The reason to discuss the issues and talk about potential causes is to that in the event we can come to some agreement (in time) we then can craft a plan that my help avoid a potentially devastating global event. I dont think we can stop the warming of the earth, we may be able to slow it a bit by reducing our contributions, on the other hand the snow ball may already be too large.

Now, if you think that displacing MILLIONS of humans, swamping much of south Texas and all of lower Florida is meaningless, there's no reason to care and it's makes since to ask the question you ask - so what. . .

I happen to care. I also would prefer to pay attention the models, however crude they may be, and use that information and data collected by many others to help make adjustments in how and what we as humans and governments do in the future.

Katrina is a good example. Should we rebuild NO if the predictions are (at present rates) the sea will raise even one foot in the next 50 years? If it is rebuilt, don't you think the engineers would like that kind of information when designing the new barriers? Should we plan to not allow more construction on perma frost because it's thawing at alarming rates? Should we be sensitive to the indigenous people of the north and the fact that they no longer can store their food in the earth because it's mud now and not ice? Someone needs to build some power plants, someone needs to bring power and food storage to those people, these issues are present, we must deal with them today, never mind tomorrow, next week or next year.
 
I enjoy these types of topics because they are a GREAT contribution to the betterment of the Monster Mulleys community.
 
Good debate...

Earth will continue to maintain it's living inhabitants for a couple more million years regardless of environmental disruptions. We (humans) cannot control or change it's destiny.

Ed
 
That's true this planet has been changing since it was formed and so have the life forms on it. but just like your health even though you know you're going to die in the end don't you try to take the best care of yourself and prolong your life the best you can? I think some people look at the environment the same way.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-06 AT 11:21AM (MST)[p]>That's true this planet has been
>changing since it was formed
>and so have the life
>forms on it. but just
>like your health even
>though you know you're going
>to die in the end
>don't you try to take
>the best care of yourself
>and prolong your life the
>best you can? I think
>some people look at the
>environment the same way.

Dude, my friend

I doubt that their is anyone on this site or any real outdoorsman for that matter that doesn't do what he or she can to keep this planet going for the future of our children and grandchildren and so on and so on.
 
I disagree with huntfx's last post. I very much would like to agree, but the evidence just does not allow me to believe that assumption. For example, I think that people who post on this web comments like, "I just drove three blocks in my suv to get an ice-cream cone" are not helping to better manage our very limited supply of oil. In fact, they are proud of the fact that they wasted fuel to do it, in this example; the point was just that - the guy did it because he could!

I'm not passing judgment on the decision, I'm pointing out that there are people on this site who don't give a rip about preservation or the wise and prudent use of natural resources. In fact, there are people who are racing to use as much as they can before it's gone - it's call tragedy of the commons. Garret Harden wrote about it many years ago.

I think a lot of people like to think they do their part, I'm quite sure there are lots of people who even believe they do their part, but really, it comes down to money. I think some people just spend and spend and spend and done really give much thought to their actions.

I wish that everyone would share a conservation ethic, but I'm 100% sure they do not. The evidence is overwhelming that the desire for fun far exceeds the prudent management of our limited supply of natural resources.

This is about what's happening now, not whether it's right or wrong, its about what people actually do. . .

I know that wise use is subjective, but NO one can convince me that a healthy person, driving three blocks in an suv to get ice-cream and then bragging about how much fuel is takes to do that, is a conservative principle - by any definition it is NOT conservative, unless your vehicle of choice happens to be a M1 Abram. . .
 
Now you are choosing the extreems. The guy traveling three miles is the extreem case. There are extreems the other way as well. Such as the NASA scientist article you posted. I think a lot of folks have come to the conclusion that scientist don't really know what in the heck is going on and have made huge mistakes in their findings and are constantly contradicting themselves. They can not be trusted.

"I think a lot of people like to think they do their part, I'm quite sure there are lots of people who even believe they do their part, but really, it comes down to money. I think some people just spend and spend and spend and done really give much thought to their actions."

I could not disagree more.
Please clairify what you believe to be "Their part"
 
Just to set the record straight........

TFinal , if you are refering to my comment about going for an ice-cream cone, it was tongue in cheek. We don't own a SUV, the closest ice-cream place is at least 5 miles from home and we haven't been out for an ice-cream cone in at least 10 years. We only own one vehicle, a 4 cyl. Toyota Tacoma. In fact, my wife has never had a drivers license. We average about 7000 miles a year and that includes a trip out of state for hunting once every other year.(depending if I can draw a tag somewhere).

My comment was made to express how I see the average American and their concern for global warming and energy conservation in general. I noticed with this huge rise in gas prices that people haven't cut back very much on driving. The Mall is still full when I drive by, and there is still a long line of cars at the fast food joints.

If and when a real global warming problem comes up that can be proven to be man made then you can bet good old American ingenuity will be able come up with a solution. Unless Government gets in the way of course.

Steve
 
Mark Serreze is a research scientist at the University of Colorado Boulder and the National Snow and Ice Data Center.

SERREZE: "When we look at the Arctic we see that it has shown very strong warming for at least the past 30 years. But whether this is a global warming signal is not altogether clear, because much of this warming is actually due to a change in the circulation of the atmosphere."

Serreze says the changes seen in the atmosphere may or may not be the result of human activities.
 
Oh yea and this is where I plagerised this from.............for those that care........

This is Arctic Science Journeys Radio, a production of the Alaska Sea Grant Program at the University of Alaska Fairbanks School of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences. Doug Schneider.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-06 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]" I doubt that their is anyone on this site or any real outdoorsman for that matter that doesn't do what he or she can to keep this planet going for the future of our children and grandchildren and so on and so on."
My reply addressed the fact that there are people who do not do their best to protect our homeland. That's no secret, in fact, it's more the norm for people to do just the opposite - they actually do more to damage the earth than to protect it. I'm not saying I do less or more, I'm just saying I disagree with FX.

As per "their part" it's really up to each person to decide how much mitigation for their own impacts they choose to take responsibility for. It's a personal choice and I can't tell you what you need to do. I can suggest that, for example, we all slow down and make sure we have the proper air in our tires, and good clean air filters. If we all did that we would save both more fuel, and the arctic wildlife refugee and NO one would be any the poorer for it!

Take care,
 
>Oh yea and this is where
>I plagerised this from.............for those
>that care........
>
>This is Arctic Science Journeys Radio,
>a production of the Alaska
>Sea Grant Program at the
>University of Alaska Fairbanks School
>of Fisheries and Ocean Sciences.
>Doug Schneider.


Thanks. To be honest I do care, and I like it when data is cited, helps me sort through the crap that gets thrown out there.

As to Global warming. I'll be agreeing with TF here. Maybe if its a slow week in classes I'll pull some of the data I've read over the last 3 years about it and post it up. We'll see.

Kirby
 

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