Never Been a Supporter of Preference Points

[chrisamx]

Interesting article on negative aspects of preference points.

https://blog.eastmans.com/the-myth-of-preference-points/

 

[Homer]

yep....

 

[elkantlers]

Points or no points, there is still going not enough critters to go around. Points at least reward people that have put time and money into the game.
I would rather see a person that has applied consistently for many years draw a coveted tag over a first time applicant.
People bag on Utah, But the 50/50 split is probably as fair as a point system can be.
This year I drew one of the best mule deer tags in the state with only 7 points. So people can still get lucky with a point system.

 

[BOHNTR]

Points are the worst thing ever implemented for hunter recruitment

 

[El Gringo]

Points or no points, there is still going not enough critters to go around. Points at least reward people that have put time and money into the game.
I would rather see a person that has applied consistently for many years draw a coveted tag over a first time applicant.
People bag on Utah, But the 50/50 split is probably as fair as a point system can be.
This year I drew one of the best mule deer tags in the state with only 7 points. So people can still get lucky with a point system.

Couldn’t agree more. All these guys complaining about the points systems should apply in Idaho and New Mexico every year. After 10 years of drawing nothing, and never being able to count on tags, they’ll scream that preference needs to be made for them.
Arizona, Utah, and Wyoming have it right, IMO by having some kind of Hybrid system. The reality is some tags are just “once in a lifetime..... Maybe”, regardless of points, or no points.

The alternative, is states like Idaho, charging $200+ in non refundable fees to apply, with absolutely nothing gained except a single name in the hat, one time..... Hard pass for me, and I would hate to see every state go to that model. Every state has to raise money, on the backs on Non Residents, so we are going to pay to play, no matter what. You can either choose to pay, and have same drawing odds every year (very low), or pay, and have better odds over time. There’s no alternative.

I use my portfolio of points across the west every year, to get 2 or 3 decent tags a year, that I can count on. I would hate it if that were gone.

 

[El Gringo]

Points are the worst thing ever implemented for hunter recruitment

The Internet is the “worst thing ever implemented” for hunter recruitment, IMO..... Thanks Al Gore....

A counter point.... A great friend of mine, his dad, and sons accumulated a couple of points in Colorado, and are going to all draw together and have a Deer camp together, like we did when we were kids, and you could just buy tags. Those days are gone, and so are the family Deer camps, in my home state. IMO, that’s pretty solid benefit. I appreciate the diversity in the state’s systems personally, because there’s options for everyone if you look outside of your own state.

 

[elkantlers]

Points are the worst thing ever implemented for hunter recruitment

More people applied for hunting permits this year than ever before. Next year there will be more applicants than this year. and more the next. Hunter recruitment isn't the problem with point systems.

 

[Deerdon]

For the people that are employed with companies that require you to put in for vacation time WELL in advance, the preference point system is great. For the most part, you pretty much know when you will draw a tag. Sure would like to see CA go to a 25% random quota instead of 10% though.

 

[BOHNTR]

More people applied for hunting permits this year than ever before. Next year there will be more applicants than this year. and more the next. Hunter recruitment isn't the problem with point systems.

You’re trying to compare an anomaly year (COVID hunters) to others years? Let’s see what those numbers are when we’re done with this. Might surprise you.

 

[Snoopdogg]

You’re trying to compare an anomaly year (COVID hunters) to others years? Let’s see what those numbers are when we’re done with this. Might surprise you.

I hope we retain some of those folks. We need hunting to continue and although I hate point creep, I'd like to see hunting, as a whole, appreciated by new hunters.

 

[slobow]

For my kids in this state they will never ever be able to catch up to the rest of us for a coveted elk, pronghorn or coveted tag..not a fair system for the newer hunter.
As for the mass of new applicants..I personally think all the free money handed out to anyone and everyone is a major factor. Perhaps I'm wrong but this economy cannot and will not continue at this rate. When the bubble pops I believe we will see things level out..

 

[Homer]

uh....level out might be an understatement..............

 

[hntnfool]

I think Nevada’s system works the best, and possibly the “fairest”, especially since your points go to zero when you draw any tag

 

[wildfin]

I have been building points as they started to show up in various states for more than 25 years and it has worked great for me with more limited entry hunts than I may ever be able to do. there really was not a choice, did I stay home waiting for a tag, no. If you are a young hunter and not investing in your future that would be your fault or your fathers.And as elkantler said there is never going to be enough tags and if the best hunts are all you want ,you just may not even know how to hunt in the event that you draw. In nm i have applied for more than 20 years and finally dew my second elk tag, I did always shoot for the moon but most of the limited entry hunts that I have had were with point,I have also been after tags in idahoe and have yet to draw, did hunt there last year with my brother who finally drew a coveted tag. The perfect system does not exist, you need faith, and after all this is califonia and anyone on the planet can come over here and buy 2 buck tags and hunt on millions of acres no application or points needed.

 

[lif]

States make too much money selling points to get rid of it unfortunately. I like preference points but in my opinion the best system would be as follows. You don’t get a point unless you apply for a hunt and do not draw. If you draw a hunt you lose your points, PERIOD!! This simple system would eliminate almost all point creep. No purchasing points.

 

[Buckhunter1955]

I like them this year, I burned 24 NR points for a Colorado Elk tag. Would never wait that long again, at the time I started it seemed like a good strategy, in hind sight it was foolish.

 

[El Gringo]

I like them this year, I burned 24 NR points for a Colorado Elk tag. Would never wait that long again, at the time I started it seemed like a good strategy, in hind sight it was foolish.

Congratulations, it will probably be awesome.

The other side, is, you could be applying for a top tag in Idaho, Nevada, or NM for 30 years, and never draw. Statistically you would never draw a top tag randomly in your life.

 

[chrisamx]

Congratulations, it will probably be awesome.

The other side, is, you could be applying for a top tag in Idaho, Nevada, or NM for 30 years, and never draw. Statistically you would never draw a top tag randomly in your life.

Someone is drawing them. One of my inlaws got a NM Elk tag three years ago and scored. On the other hand, I know many people with Max Points here in CA and statistically most will die with their max points for elk and sheep. The real winners are the States that keep people applying, no matter what.

 

[chrisamx]

Points or no points, there is still going not enough critters to go around. Points at least reward people that have put time and money into the game.
I would rather see a person that has applied consistently for many years draw a coveted tag over a first time applicant.
People bag on Utah, But the 50/50 split is probably as fair as a point system can be.
This year I drew one of the best mule deer tags in the state with only 7 points. So people can still get lucky with a point system.

The 50 50 split is probably the best scenario, allowing most to feel that they have a chance at least. CA is the worst. Realistically in there is no chance outside of Max points, and the odd aren't that good for Max points holders either. But it does manage to create a haves - have nots division between hunters.

 

[El Gringo]

Someone is drawing them. One of my inlaws got a NM Elk tag three years ago and scored. On the other hand, I know many people with Max Points here in CA and statistically most will die with their max points for elk and sheep. The real winners are the States that keep people applying, no matter what.

California is literally the worst example of anything that could be considered rational..... Can’t protect Lions for 30 years, and have enough Deer to go around. They could have a random draw with no points, and the vast majority would die without ever getting a tag.

 

[jims]

The sad part about current limited tag systems is how much it costs to apply! The cost of application, pref/bonus pt fees is pricing a lot of young and new hunters out of applying. Old farts once drawn....or see they may never draw a tag may give up! How many guys reading this post have spent $200 to $300 just to apply 1 year for multiple species in 1 or 2 states as nonres?

The spooky part about it is that there are more people applying for tags every year so demand continues to grow. What happens 20 to 30 years from now? How about 40 years from today?

Some states change up the draw process that makes it even tougher to draw tags....especially nonres! Take a look at what happened to DIY nonres hunters in N Mexico a few years ago. They pretty much flipped the bird on DIY nonres! Consider what happens if 90/10 ever happens in Wyo! Will Wyo also flip the bird on nonres hunters? About 1/2 the current high demand limited nonres tags will be swallowed up by Wyo res! You want to talk about point leaping for nonres! Draw odds will only slightly improve for Wyo res while it will take at least twice as long for nonres to draw high demand limited tags.

Obviously there is a lot of whining going on when there are so many applicants for so few tags....and it isn't getting any better!

 

[EVILNR]

I was 5 years into the points game before I realized it was a scam.
WTH do I need to buy a hunting license if I'm not going to hunt?
I dont do points. Still do plenty of hunting.

 

[WapitiBob]

points aren't slowing anybody down.

OR apps were up 27% at the end of April with 2 weeks left for applying; a point state.

WY has had 1 species, see a decline in apps in recent memory; another points state.
4,000 people bought a WY sheep point last year giving them a single point; worthless in the draw as their only chance is a random tag.
5,000 bought that single worthless point for Moose.

Less than half of the NR buying points for Elk/Deer/Antelope at every point level actually applied for a hunt. Over 15,000 each for E/D/A bought their base level point (going from zero to one) and never even applied for a hunt.

AZ numbers are up and most buy the license every year as well as the points.

 

[ElmerFudd]

Points are based on the feeling of entitlement that everyone deserves a tag and fine when the demand is such that you can count on drawing tags in some reasonable period of time, everyone wait their turn. On the other hand, when demand is such.that enough that old age and death is the way pools clear, the wait your turn concept breaks down and is unfair. It excludes all but the first in, like a Ponzi scheme. The system will have to change at some point when enough if the have nots complain loud enough. At least the top pool will have had better chances to draw all those years, but imagine how bad those excluded by a point or two all those years will feel.Think they could have a points system for lottery tickets?

It is hard to put the genie back in the bottle, but I have always thought points systems are a unfair and stupid way to try to solve the unsolvable supply being a trickle of the demand issue.

 

[buckmster28]

I personally like point systems as I don’t seem to be lucky in draws, I understand that this means new hunters are excluded from the top coveted units, but that being said I would not consider those units I would concentrate on what I can draw. If I am in a low point situation I look at it as the people with high points are held hostage by there points and are less people trying for the tags I am going for. I have a young daughter and I realize she will not ever have enough points to draw some tags but if she wants to continue to hunt we will find opportunities for that. I have points all over the place in many states and I find the areas I have a lot of points in hold me hostage from hunting there and meanwhile in other areas I have little points in I can draw and learn and hunt effectively. I guess everyone just has to come up with there own strategy and if the best hunts are what you want and you are willing to wait you can look at the point system in place and at least have an idea if and when you will ever draw. Doesn’t always work as of now I don’t have a single tag drawn this year but that’s how it goes sometimes.

 

[Snoopdogg]

I remember when hunters whined spoke up about not being able to draw certain tags "and my neighbor has drawn 5 times" during CDFG's song and dance about a point system being implemented.

I attended my local town hall on the mayter and it was happening, they just wanted to know our tolerance for different point systems.

I prefer Cali's, but would have loved a different split, like 75/25 or ?? and I apply diligently. For deer, I hunt every year and draw an X zone every 2-4 years. For the other species in Cali, I consider those once in a lifetime.

 

[HunterHarry]

I agree with the article 100%.
Sick and tired of this ponzi scheme.

 

[heywouldya]

I bet that Idaho and New Mexico are doing fine without the point system scheme.
My bet is that that I'll be taking my points, in some states, to the grave with me.

 

[chrisamx]

points aren't slowing anybody down.

OR apps were up 27% at the end of April with 2 weeks left for applying; a point state.

WY has had 1 species, see a decline in apps in recent memory; another points state.
4,000 people bought a WY sheep point last year giving them a single point; worthless in the draw as their only chance is a random tag.
5,000 bought that single worthless point for Moose.

Less than half of the NR buying points for Elk/Deer/Antelope at every point level actually applied for a hunt. Over 15,000 each for E/D/A bought their base level point (going from zero to one) and never even applied for a hunt.

AZ numbers are up and most buy the license every year as well as the points.

I would apply for more hunts in WY if the application actually came with a point.

 

[desperatehills]

I bet all of you that don't like point systems would be the first in line to apply if Idaho and NM started having preference points. Nothing wrong with point systems when you have max points.

I drew NM oryx and Idaho moose tags the first year I applied. Many of you would say that is a good example why point systems are bad. My guide for the oryx hunt and my friend that helped on the moose hunt would disagree. Both have been applying for 20+ years without a tag and it doesn't look good for them next year either.

 

[BOHNTR]

I bet all of you that don't like point systems would be the first in line to apply if Idaho and NM started having preference points. Nothing wrong with point systems when you have max points.

I drew NM oryx and Idaho moose tags the first year I applied. Many of you would say that is a good example why point systems are bad. My guide for the oryx hunt and my friend that helped on the moose hunt would disagree. Both have been applying for 20+ years without a tag and it doesn't look good for them next year either.

No....I wouldn’t.

 

[Outdoordan]

I bet all of you that don't like point systems would be the first in line to apply if Idaho and NM started having preference points. Nothing wrong with point systems when you have max points.

I drew NM oryx and Idaho moose tags the first year I applied. Many of you would say that is a good example why point systems are bad. My guide for the oryx hunt and my friend that helped on the moose hunt would disagree. Both have been applying for 20+ years without a tag and it doesn't look good for them next year either.

If your friend is from Idaho or New Mexico than more than likely he is against point schemes. Politicians that only look at $ have been trying to get a point program in this state (Idaho) for years and the residents have told them unilaterally NO each time. My daughter just drew a bighorn sheep tag here her first year of applying. I drew the same unit in 2006 the first year I applied. Since then I have been 0-15 on my Mtn. Goat tag, but I still believe that this is the "fairest" system. That said, I would entertain a "NR only" points system as they seem to be the only group that wants one. And I bet our fish and game would spend that money...

 

[desperatehills]

No....I wouldn’t.

Do you apply every year in NM and Idaho now? If you say yes then I don't think you are being truthful. Many of us apply in these two states when we know we do not have the points to get tags elsewhere. I use those two states to fill gaps and only apply every few years.

 

[desperatehills]

What I truly like is the diversity of all the different states. Preference, bonus, or no points. It is easy to plan hunts every year and I seem to get a surprise hunt every once in a while. We could all tweak the systems to our liking but there is plenty of opportunity out west for those willing to play the game.

 

[BOHNTR]

Do you apply every year in NM and Idaho now? If you say yes then I don't think you are being truthful. Many of us apply in these two states when we know we do not have the points to get tags elsewhere. I use those two states to fill gaps and only apply every few years.

I do apply every year.....and have NO issue with not receiving a ‘point’ when not drawn. It’s a true ‘draw’ system that allows anyone the chance of drawing.

 

[desperatehills]

I do apply every year.....and have NO issue with not receiving a ‘point’ when not drawn. It’s a true ‘draw’ system that allows anyone the chance of drawing.

I think I understand. You would continue to apply if those two states started a point system. You just prefer it stays the way it is. I like having a couple states that have no point systems. I save money by not applying for those states when my preference points insure that I will have a tag elsewhere.

 

[Outdoordan]

I think I understand. You would continue to apply if those two states started a point system. You just prefer it stays the way it is. I like having a couple states that have no point systems. I save money by not applying for those states when my preference points insure that I will have a tag elsewhere.

Sorry but "points" do not insure (ensure) somebody will draw. I probably won't draw some tags/species even with high points. I only drew one tag this year even though I have 15+ points in most states, and some states 20+ points. I "put in" for 7 or 8 states this year. The only thing I know for sure is that I will die without ever drawing a tag for some species/states. I have a leg up on most as I got in early, so I am not a Noob on point systems.

I do agree that for NR, a point system gives you hope (sometimes a false or placebo effect of hope). So, I am for a NR point system if that is what NR would prefer, heck I may even be in that group.

 

[Weiserbucks]

A point system doesn't guarantee that a person will draw the top quality tags, but It DOES guarantee that future generations will never draw them.

Soooo, anyone in favor of a point system hates their children, hates their grandchildren and hates every other child that will ever want to hunt a top quality tag.

 

[desperatehills]

Sorry but "points" do not insure (ensure) somebody will draw. I probably won't draw some tags/species even with high points. I only drew one tag this year even though I have 15+ points in most states, and some states 20+ points. I "put in" for 7 or 8 states this year. The only thing I know for sure is that I will die without ever drawing a tag for some species/states. I have a leg up on most as I got in early, so I am not a Noob on point systems.

I do agree that for NR, a point system gives you hope (sometimes a false or placebo effect of hope). So, I am for a NR point system if that is what NR would prefer, heck I may even be in that group.

The points you have could have gotten you tags if you lower your standards. The premium units are a supply and demand issue. I plan hunts all the time and know within reason that I will be hunting that fall. But I will never see the Henries or have a late rifle tag on the strip. I have never drawn a sheep tag nor will I get to hunt elk in the san juans. I never understood why someone applying for the first time today should get a tag that someone else has been trying to get for 30 years

 

[Weiserbucks]

The points you have could have gotten you tags if you lower your standards. The premium units are a supply and demand issue. I plan hunts all the time and know within reason that I will be hunting that fall. But I will never see the Henries or have a late rifle tag on the strip. I have never drawn a sheep tag nor will I get to hunt elk in the san juans. I never understood why someone applying for the first time today should get a tag that someone else has been trying to get for 30 years

Because points are an entitlement system, like welfare. The longer you participate, the more you get and the states have figured out that you will pay for entitlement.

 

[Outdoordan]

There is a very good chance I will never see a desert sheep tag of ANY kind in my life time. I could go on and on but you get the picture.

 

[WapitiBob]

A point system doesn't guarantee that a person will draw the top quality tags, but It DOES guarantee that future generations will never draw them.

A bit of research into the point states of OR, AZ, UT, and WY will help you.

 

[Sierra]

Points are based on the feeling of entitlement that everyone deserves a tag and fine when the demand is such that you can count on drawing tags in some reasonable period of time, everyone wait their turn. On the other hand, when demand is such.that enough that old age and death is the way pools clear, the wait your turn concept breaks down and is unfair. It excludes all but the first in, like a Ponzi scheme. The system will have to change at some point when enough if the have nots complain loud enough. At least the top pool will have had better chances to draw all those years, but imagine how bad those excluded by a point or two all those years will feel.Think they could have a points system for lottery tickets?

It is hard to put the genie back in the bottle, but I have always thought points systems are a unfair and stupid way to try to solve the unsolvable supply being a trickle of the demand issue.

Spot on!

 

[DeerHunter53]

The sad part about current limited tag systems is how much it costs to apply! The cost of application, pref/bonus pt fees is pricing a lot of young and new hunters out of applying. Old farts once drawn....or see they may never draw a tag may give up! How many guys reading this post have spent $200 to $300 just to apply 1 year for multiple species in 1 or 2 states as nonres?

The spooky part about it is that there are more people applying for tags every year so demand continues to grow. What happens 20 to 30 years from now? How about 40 years from today?

Some states change up the draw process that makes it even tougher to draw tags....especially nonres! Take a look at what happened to DIY nonres hunters in N Mexico a few years ago. They pretty much flipped the bird on DIY nonres! Consider what happens if 90/10 ever happens in Wyo! Will Wyo also flip the bird on nonres hunters? About 1/2 the current high demand limited nonres tags will be swallowed up by Wyo res! You want to talk about point leaping for nonres! Draw odds will only slightly improve for Wyo res while it will take at least twice as long for nonres to draw high demand limited tags.

Obviously there is a lot of whining going on when there are so many applicants for so few tags....and it isn't getting any better!

Old Farts? Aren't YOU in that demographic or not far from it. So who are you calling Old Farts?

 

[DeerHunter53]

As a kid in Utah growing up I got to hunt the Henries, Pausn, Dutton where ever you wanted to go. No points just figured out where you wanted to go.
I still believe that Utah, Wyoming, and Nevada have the best points system and in all of them you can still get lucky and draw a great tag if you try.

 

[El Gringo]

A point system doesn't guarantee that a person will draw the top quality tags, but It DOES guarantee that future generations will never draw them.

Soooo, anyone in favor of a point system hates their children, hates their grandchildren and hates every other child that will ever want to hunt a top quality tag.

Every time I hear someone say something like this, I wonder, if we’re all going to live to be 200? We only get so many years on this earth, where we’re earning money to apply, and also healthy enough to get up the mountain...

Every time I hear someone predict it’s going to take 50 or 60 points to draw, I think..... Apparently we’re going to live forever in the future. I honestly think we’re very close to the top level that is sustainable for the top tier tags out there. They’re going to be “once in a Lifetime..... maybe”.

 

[chrisamx]

I often wonder if the creators of the point system ever thought it would create a division amongst hunters?

 

[elkantlers]

If Points systems were scrapped tomorrow 90% of people, including kids and grand kids and neighbors and the lady at the convenience store, would never draw a top tier permit. There are simply not enough permits to go around.

Points, at the very least, give those people that faithfully apply year after year a better chance at drawing permits. It's simple math. 1 point gives a person 2 chances to draw a tag. By my calculation that's better than 0 points where you only have 1 chance.

 

[WapitiBob]

depends on the state

 

[elkantlers]

depends on the state

true

 

[El Gringo]

Because points are an entitlement system, like welfare. The longer you participate, the more you get and the states have figured out that you will pay for entitlement.

Welfare is paid for by others’ extorted Tax money…. I and everyone else pays for their points. One of these things is NOT like the other.

 

[chrisamx]

If Points systems were scrapped tomorrow 90% of people, including kids and grand kids and neighbors and the lady at the convenience store, would never draw a top tier permit. There are simply not enough permits to go around.

Points, at the very least, give those people that faithfully apply year after year a better chance at drawing permits. It's simple math. 1 point gives a person 2 chances to draw a tag. By my calculation that's better than 0 points where you only have 1 chance.

What about the hunter who faithfully applies, but came in after the points systems were implemented? Those hunters will never enjoy the same hope that the max point holder have...at least not for several decades.

 

[WapitiBob]

Tell him to suck it up. Learn what you can and can't draw and go hunt, or complain about it.
I wasn't on the ground floor in any state but WY and have drawn good tags in OR, AZ, and UT, and can draw in every one of those again. They're decent tags other than UT, but at about $60 to apply there I consider UT a lotto ticket.

 

[Bwht4x4]

I'm 100% opposed to point systems, especially preference point systems. If I had to pick a point system I'd say Nevada does it right. To play this game of hunting in multiple states you have to play the game and the hand you're dealt. I'm loaded on points in the west; as of today 389 points across all the states. I'm only max for WY deer and CA pronghorn and DBHS. However, I draw pretty good tags every single year because I understand the draw systems and I'm patient.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Just added up all my points ??.
Just have to keep my health to enjoy using them.

 

[ElmerFudd]

Points systems do get more people and their families to apply in more states than they probably otherwise would because they don't want to miss out. Overall, points systems hurt draw odds, especially for the tougher to draw hunts. I have drawn good tags both with and without points. For sure, tags are tougher to draw than ever with more names in the hat, which there are. It seems to go against what you would think, declining hunter numbers but increasing draw applications,. Even if a state doesn't have a points system, the urge to blanket the west with applications is fueled by the philosophy, apply, apply, apply.....

 

[chrisamx]

Tell him to suck it up. Learn what you can and can't draw and go hunt, or complain about it.
I wasn't on the ground floor in any state but WY and have drawn good tags in OR, AZ, and UT, and can draw in every one of those again. They're decent tags other than UT, but at about $60 to apply there I consider UT a lotto ticket.

Or maybe tell him to try and change a blatantly unfair system.

 

[WapitiBob]

What's "fair" is a guy that's applied the longest has the better chance at a percentage of the tags.

What's "fair" is little johnny has the same chance as everyone in the draw regardless of how long they've applied.

What's "fair" is a percentage of the tags go to the county residents because they pay local taxes.

What's "fair" is some kid is guaranteed a Sheep tag because his family lives in the unit.

We can play this game all day long and I've seen people try to make their case for every one of those scenarios. Want it changed, write and submit a proposal to the game dept and follow it thru.

 

[chrisamx]

What's "fair" is a guy that's applied the longest has the better chance at a percentage of the tags.

What's "fair" is little johnny has the same chance as everyone in the draw regardless of how long they've applied.

What's "fair" is a percentage of the tags go to the county residents because they pay local taxes.

What's "fair" is some kid is guaranteed a Sheep tag because his family lives in the unit.

We can play this game all day long and I've seen people try to make their case for every one of those scenarios. Want it changed, write and submit a proposal to the game dept and follow it thru.

What's fair is everyone having an equal chance. What's not fair is a small elitist class of max holders that hold all the hope of a tag. What's really not fair are the State (s) making money off this little lottery. You have to admit, they really sucked us in.

 

[HuntnProf]

I started deer hunting later in life than some (15 years ago, and I’m 50–wife and oldest daughter joined me less than 10 yrs ago). Didn’t start collecting points outside of CA until 8 years ago. We’ve hunted X zones 5 times (myself 3 times and wife and oldest daughter once each, and I should draw again this year)

I like modified preference point systems with a % of random tags—I do wish CA would increase random % though...maybe to 25 or 30% so everyone not at a specific point level has a better chance than now.

Random in all western states would not allow for planning....now, if I only hunted CA, I could see why some may want to scrap points here.

I plan our hunts (wife, daughter's, myself) in advance-- so I can be sure work/school schedule will accommodate--not all of our fall's are the same in regards to availability, and preference points allow for this. I have a running 5-year plan/excel spreadsheet for all of us in WY, CO, AZ, and our home state of CA (though random stuff in like NM, or pie in the sky AZ hunts in there just in case). I like to know my wife and I can plan to hunt WY antelope this year, mule deer in 2022, CO elk in 2023, CO deer in 2024, ect (knowing point creep keeps this from being certain in some units/states)....and of course hunting in CA every years with 2 tags, and OTC AZ archery keeps us busy.

I wish CO would have a small percentage of random......

I don't support completly random, I think there should be a split, more % random than current would be nice in CA. I also support WY special draw, and wouldn’t mind if other states implemented something similar.

I do have a 4 year old grandson.....so in 8 years when he can start deer hunting my opinion may change—lord knows my opinion has changed on many things over the course of my adult life ;-)