New Asian Binos/Optics Co's.

[vichris]

The quality of optics we are seeing in the past 5-10 is phenomenal. I would venture to say that the big 3 europeon optics companies are going to take a sever beating over the next several years. It's become PAINFULLY obvious that there are numerous optics companies that are producing products that are so close in optical quality to the big three that it is driving the value of those european made optics into a hole.

The bottom line is...........hold off buying those high end optics. They'll be available in the near future for dimes on the dollar.

 

[NJS]

No, what is PAINFULLY oblivious is that the oriental optical companies can copy the quality engineering of the European optical companies. But what they don't copy is the mechanical reliability and quality construction. A Kia or Hyundai isn't a Mercedes or BMW... Or do you think the same about European cars also?

 

[never_catch]

No, what is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS, not OBLIVIOUS, is that most (definitely not all) of the "Big 3 diehards" won't even look at pair of Zens with an open mind because, by gawd if they paid 3 to 4 times as much money on their glass THEY HAVE GOT TO BE 3 TO 4 TIMES BETTER...NJS all you're doing is talkin out yer ass without any backup whatsoever...with as many people I've seen buy them (ZEN RAY in particular) the past year, on here and friends of mine, why isn't everyone having negative issues if they have such a sh1tty mechanical reliability and construction??

Vichris have you found any comparable to the Big 3 spotting scopes yet?? SteveC how about yourself?? I'm still waiting for one of these companies to come out with a good one...

~Z~

 

[SteveC]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-10 AT 09:06AM (MST)[p]Zen Ray has a new spotter somewhere in their future. Since they just released two brand new binoculars, the Vista and ZRS, they may focus on the spotter. Their Sedona is decent, but not on par with their binoculars. I am not much of a spoter user, but the Nikon ED is very good for less money than the alphas.

NJS, name me ONE Asian glass that is either a Zeiss, Leica,or Swarovski knockoff. That's right there aren't any. The ZEN ED has an open bridge design, but the internals, in particular the focus design, bear no resemblance to an EL. The only thing they share in common is the Schmidt-Pechan roof prism. The S-P has been around so long it is no longer anyone's proprietary design. Zeiss uses the Abbe-Koening prism, but almost every other roof prism binocular is a S-P. So does that make Swarovski a Leica knock off? Leica(as Leitz) was around first. They both use the S-P prism design. The simple fact of life is that the two basic binocular designs, the porro and the roof systems have been around for so long, that there is no longer any mystery in how to build them. Coatings are no longer the technical challenge they once were. Same with glass.

There are lots of knock off out there in the binocular world. They are in the mid price range. Here you get a few basic designs that lots of companies, even long standing optics firms with long histories behind the name use some variation of to fill price niches in their line ups.

Your problem is that they are Chinese. That is objection enough. Leave it there. I'd suggest you actually use some time to objectively evaluate the instrument, but since that is not likely to happen, I won't. The objections to these now are coming from people who think they are wise enough to characterize them with no hands on experience.

 

[HullinPhx]

I personally think there are more to optics than what you can see through them. I use my optics a lot and durability is very high on my list as well. I agree that some of the Asian products look good now but they are new and have not had a lot of true field testing done. In a few years if they survive I will be all over them but I am not ready to give up on my Big 3 to save a buck or 2..

John

 

[Foreman4x4]

I owned a Zen-Ray 10x43 ED2, and while they're decent for the money, they ain't no Swarovski, Leica, or Zeiss! You guys buy your shoes from Payless or Kmart?

 

[mtmuley]

If the new Asian junk drives down prices on Swarovski to dimes on the dollar, Hell yeah, I will wait. THEN buy a Swarovski. We need a new forum for all you guys associatd with ZenRay. mtmuley

 

[vichris]

>If the new Asian junk drives
>down prices on Swarovski to
>dimes on the dollar, Hell
>yeah, I will wait. THEN
>buy a Swarovski. We need
>a new forum for all
>you guys associatd with ZenRay.
>mtmuley


Hmm I think you need to reread my post. I did not even mention Zen Ray and I certainly am NOT associated with them. Although I will include them in the mix now that YOU mention them. I was refering to Hawke and Meopta as well.

I will give you this even though you call them "junk", at least you have sense enough to realise that that was the gist of my post. You can call them "junk' all you want mtmuley but your post is acknowledgement that they aren't quite the junk you profess they are. They perform better (or a least as good as) than what all of the big three offered a year or two ago and are 98% of what they now offer. Ya the eye cups and a few other minor accessories aren't quite up to par but I'll be damned if I'll pay $1200-$2100 for better eyecups and a case.

When the Asian "junk" drives down the price of the european optics remember to thank those asian optic companies for infusing some reality to the optics market.

 

[vichris]

John,

At least you have an open mind. I'm not saying you should just take my word for it. Give it some time. Building a bino (or rifle/spotting scope) is not the mystery it once was.

The one point you are wrong about though is that its not a buck or two.......its multiple hundreds or even thousands of $$$$$

 

[Fortis]

The euro lovers constantly amaze me. I do in fact own Leica, so I'm not one of those euro bashers either. However, those who think that only the Germans, Austrians, Czechs, etc are the only ones' who can build durable, world class optics are kidding themselves. The Nikon EDG is just as good, if not better than any bino in the world, with one possible exception, the new Swarovision. The Nikon Premier LXL had that reputation also. The Pentax ED, Zen Ed2, and Leupold GR HD all provide superb views. For all the Swaro EL lovers out there, my group of hunting buddies have trashed 2 pair of EL's in the past 2 years. They have great glass but are no where near as durable as a Trinovid, LXL, SLC, Bushnell Elite, or a Zen Ray ED, which have all been used in the same ways and have not failed. I'll be willing to bet my newly acquired and superb Leupold GR HD binos will last just as long as any euro available.

 

[never_catch]

I don't have any ties with any optics companies but if Zen Ray wanted to start sending me checks for recommending them I'd gladly go cash them

~Z~

 

[SteveC]

There are three typical "attempted objections" to the newer Asian (both Chinese and Japanese) optics that surface. They all three came in rapid succession in this thread.

One is a searingly witty riposte something along the lines "of I tried 'em and they ain't no..." No observations on what that might be. Just some assurances from somewhere that since they say "...it ain't no..." then everybody will say "well gosh I guess that sure settles that one don't it". There is a lot more support in the various forums than ever could have been generated by a few early adopters if the product was without merit.

Then there is the "there is more to optics than image". Well that is pretty much the case, but believe it or not I happen to realize that. The absolute reliability threshold enjoyed by the alpha even ten years ago, just is not so much there anymore, that difference is probably being halved every five years, starting about ten years ago. I once ran over a cased Nikon Monarch and only cracked the outer plastic ring on the eye cup. That is not an expensive glass, but it proved plenty tough enough that day.

The next one is that anybody who actually posts something about some new glass is assumed to be affiliated with the company. I personally have no affiliation with any optics company and own optics from a bunch of brands. mtmuley, shooting the messenger is a tried and true trick, but sorry it won't work. If you can't kill the optic, kill the messenger.

I happen to agree with fortis. You euro guys amaze me too. Now the euro makers produce fine, fine optics. I never said otherwise, never will say otherwise. They happen to be at this juncture pretty overpriced for what they are. The newer Asian glass gives a budget strapped user a choice.

Funny thing is there is very, very few posts negative about them by people who own and use them. Either from the Euro or the Asian. I wonder why? Could both maybe actually work.

 

[NJS]

Foreman4x4, the Payless or K-mart shoe question was perfect... Shiny and looks great when new... but good luck having them re-soled. <Wink> NJS

 

[hunt33]

I agree with not shooting the messanger of someone bringing up something new, but it also gets so frustrating with all these social marketers clogging up every message board pimping a product. They exist on this board and everyone I visit and it becomes pretty transparent quickly who is not just giving a review but pimping a product.

 

[mtmuley]

OK, Everyone here that usually only posts on optics praising the new Asian optics aren't affiliated. Nevertheless, if prices on the "BIG Three" are driven to poverty prices by all these new upstarts, I can't wait. That being the case, Leupold and Nikon and such should be giveaways pretty soon. mtmuley

 

[vichris]

Comparatively Leupold and Nikon already are giveaways. BTW both of those two asian (Leupold uses mostly if not wholly asian components)companies would be included in the mix of "Asian optics companies", that I originally refered to. ;>)

 

[Gazelle]

Thats the beuaty of lifetime guarantees!!!1

 

[Cornhusker]

I have both Zen Ray Ed2 and Swaroviski although the Swaro's are 7 years old. The ED2 are 2 months old not any difference I can tell. The guys hunt with who both have Leica's I think and one of the two actually think the ED2 is better. The Zen's may fall apart, but I doubt it they appear well built. The Monarch's I had that I sold couldn't compare.

 

[iliveinthewoods]

It is funny that when you mention Mercedes & BMW you mention Kia and Hyundai, why don't you throw out Honda and acura, or Toyota and Lexus??? You picked the two crappiest brands on purpose, and picked the two nicest brands on purpose...

You can compare the asian optics to the Asian cars... but make sure you pick a legit comparison. All i know is that honda and toyota are doing something right, and so are these other manufacturers...

Be open minded, you here this same grip from the lovers of the big 3 as with the vortex optics...
----------------------------------------
Hoyt Katera XL
Spot Hogg Seven Deadly Pin
Fuse Acculaunch
Fuse Satori
G5 Matreo Strings
"I don't miss, I just don't hit him on purpose"

 

[Bman9900]

My question is why do you guys care about people "wasting" money on the big-3? Seriously, what is with constantly preaching the gospel of the asian knock-offs? Anyone who posts anything on here about any binos (doesn't matter which brand) is guaranteed to have someone respond by touting the virtues of Zen-Ray or Vortex. Are a lot of you guys selling these products because many posts sound like sales pitches? If so, it really turns me off. I know virtually nothing about most of the binos you guys mention here, but I do know one thing, the constant harping about them makes me wary and certainly does nothing to make me want to try them either! With that said - let the banter continue.

 

[vichris]

>My question is why do you
>guys care about people "wasting"
>money on the big-3?
>Seriously, what is with constantly
>preaching the gospel of the
>asian knock-offs? Anyone who
>posts anything on here about
>any binos (doesn't matter which
>brand) is guaranteed to have
>someone respond by touting the
>virtues of Zen-Ray or Vortex.
> Are a lot of
>you guys selling these products
>because many posts sound like
>sales pitches? If so,
>it really turns me off.
> I know virtually nothing
>about most of the binos
>you guys mention here, but
>I do know one thing,
>the constant harping about them
>makes me wary and certainly
>does nothing to make me
>want to try them either!
> With that said -
>let the banter continue.

Wasting?????

If a realestate agent told you to hold off buying a property because there were going to be some deals pending a bunch of foreclosures, would you just blow them off? Some of you all might want to looks through the optics forum at the thread with the title of "Back from the Shot Show". It's not my thread. Theres some really interesting information in that thread from a major dealer.

But he's not the only source I've heard it from. Some of you all can make this a thread about Zen Ray all you want, but that was never my intent. All I've said and will continue to say is,...... there are going to be some deals.....good deals.

 

[Bman9900]

Again, because you never answered my question - why do you and others care to save the world from those who want and like the Big 3? Your property analogy is interesting because I may very well blow a real estate agent off because the property I want is for sale, not in foreclosure, therefore, I would likely go ahead and buy the property because it is what I want - not all property is created equal. Likewise, I may blow off someone touting asian glass because I want Leica, Swaro, Zeiss (due to the fact its a great product that has stood the test of time) with the belief that all glass is not created equal. That is an individual choice and not something you should have to defend to someone else. If you and others are happy with asian glass, great and more power to you, but why the need to convert everyone else? The whole thing smells like ulterior motive to me - and no its not just about Zen Ray, its Vortex and others as well.

 

[never_catch]

People buy products they want and need based on affordability yay?? I don't happen to be rich so I like that the fact that I can now have glass as good as them without paying the same price. Bman9900 I can see what you're saying but are you taking the whole thing a little personal maybe?? I agree nobody should have to defend their choice to anyone regarding binos...people ask questions about products on here though and fans of these products are going to want to let them know how they feel...some say "it's worth it" others say "Holy **** you gotta get one of these!! They're AMAZING!!" both messages say the same thing just in different ways...have you ever noticed excited people talk with excitement...maybe that's why you feel like someone's scheming against you to convert?? I don't know??

Up in the deer and general fomums, there's a billion SFW posts going on...

Last year Stinky clogged up with entire elk forum with the single word "Dutton"....

Here in the optics forum, Zen Ray and other companies are getting brought up more and more because more and more people are getting excited about them...

~Z~

 

[Frontier]

One thing I like about a thread like this one is it livens up an otherwise some what dead forum. The other thing is I have been lead to some top tier binoculars at a fraction of the cost. I also like to see quality binoculars being sold at a mid level price and not seeing people having to re-mortgage their house in order to enjoy a set a binoculars as good as any of them.
One of the misconceptions of the big three is they are seeing things others can't and look through them longer than the other lower priced quality glass. My experience is that is totally hog-wash with some of todays mid-level glass.

 

[thirtythirty]

I didn't know a "heads up" was so offensive. I appreciate stuff like this because I am not in the know very much when it comes to hunting equipment sometimes. Even if this was a sale pitch, it wasn't too outrages and a person should be able to weed through the bs without too much trouble. A good deal or money saved on good optics just mean more money for other hunting equipment or unfortunately, stuff for the wife

 

[iliveinthewoods]

Most people read these forums for a few reasons, They are looking to make a new optics purchase that is probably the main reason they are reading these forums... I personally may take a flier on this Zen Ray product simply because everyone seems to like it...

Why do you care that people are bashing the big 3? Are you worried? Do you not want to see competition in the marketplace? If you care so much, why read the forum?

I personally think this is great that there are some other options for optics! Thank you everyone for your input...
----------------------------------------
Hoyt Katera XL
Spot Hogg Seven Deadly Pin
Fuse Acculaunch
Fuse Satori
G5 Matreo Strings
"I don't miss, I just don't hit him on purpose"

 

[vichris]

Who's trying to convert you?????? I repeat......hold off on purchasing them they'll be available at a better price. And I already said I may even buy another one if I can get them at a reasonable price. So where is the coversion factor. I NEVER said ANYWHERE that you should convert to asian optics. I've only said that asian optics WILL drive down the price of the big 3 euro's and they be available at a better price. And those are not really my own words. I'm just repeating some info I KNOW.

You know what,........Bman9900 never mind. Go get you a pair of the euro rangefinding binos tommorrow. None of the asians offer them anyway. Go ahead forget the "friendly" advice I was trying to pass on. Next time don't read the thread.

 

[mtmuley]

Sooooooo. If companies like Leupold and Nikon, and I bet the higher end Bushnell and dozens of other manufacturers, are using Asian components in their offerings in the same or lower price range as these "NEW" companies, how can the "NEW" offerings be superior to the older comparable offerings, much less the "EURO" stuff? I'm betting some of the glass is EXACTLY the same in some of these Asian products. And it's amazing how some posters know the intricate inner workings of some of these "NEW" Asian optics, but are not affiliated. mtmuley

 

[Fortis]

I'm not affiliated with any optics company, ZERO. I could also personally care less what people buy. My point is that the Asians are capable of, and do make some of the very best glass in the world, period, bar none..........i.e. Kowa Prominar spotters are Jap glass and the very best, period. Nikon photographic telephoto lenses are, and have been the reference standard lenses all over the world, period. That's just the facts. The guys that spend upwards of $1800 for their bino just can't stand it.

 

[SteveC]

muley

You don't have to be an expert to figure out how similar/different the design of any two binoculars are. Heck even you could probably figure it out. Just put the two side by side and observe. It is not difficult. Of course I suppose you have to be willing to make the observation with an objective eye, and you actually need a sample of each.

 

[Bman9900]

Nothing personal - I own or have used a wide array of optics and owe no allegiance to any one or three companies for that matter. I just want to see some honesty on here. I'm OK with a friendly exchange of info and subjective opinions because that is what these forums are all about, but I have a hard time with guys masking sales pitches for various brands under the guise of "educating" or "just expressing my opinion". My point is that I suspect many of the guys getting "excited" have a financial stake in the product somehow. If so, that's fine, but be upfront about it. If not, why get so worried about what others think if you really like the product?

 

[vichris]

>muley
>
>You don't have to be an
>expert to figure out how
>similar/different the design of any
>two binoculars are. Heck
>even you could probably figure
>it out. Just put
>the two side by side
>and observe. It is
>not difficult. Of course
>I suppose you have to
>be willing to make the
>observation with an objective eye,
>and you actually need a
>sample of each.

Spot on Steve...... what's probably missing though is the willingness and the objective eye. No one is so blind as those WHO WILL NOT SEE.

 

[mtmuley]

Hey Steve and vichris, Your childish insults are "spot on". Insinuating that people buying optics that have been around longer and that just happen to cost more than these new Asian makers are less than intelligent, amplifies your lack of it. Do you guys drive Toyotas by chance? mtmuley

 

[vichris]

>Hey Steve and vichris, Your childish
>insults are "spot on". Insinuating
>that people buying optics that
>have been around longer and
>that just happen to cost
>more than these new Asian
>makers are less than intelligent,
>amplifies your lack of it.
>Do you guys drive Toyotas
>by chance? mtmuley

mtmuley

Maybe it would help if you knew just a little about my background...................

I have 5 years experince as an optician (lab and dispensing)

I was a US Navy Opticalman for 4 years went to tech schools in both Great Lakes Il and New london CT, serviced thousands of pairs of binoculars, hundereds of periscopes, lots and lots of telescopes, numerous navigational instruments.

4 years experience servicing opthalmic intruments (eye doctors equipments) microscopes, astonomical telescopes, and tons of binoculars.

2 years experience in laser optics.

I know a little about optics and just as importantly a little inside information from some of my buddies in the optics trade.

Now that being said Steve's point is correct. We are not saying you need to be an physics engineer that majored in optics to figure out just how good some of these newer binos really are.
All it really takes is a little simple observation.

Fortunately money is not always the true measure of quality. Most here know that. Let me make myself clear on this point. I'm am not saying that you are not getting good quality with the big Three Euro optics companies. I am saying you are getting better VALUE with many of the asian optics. High quality and a great price.

Now talk about childish remarks. The references to K-mart, Payless shoes, and Toyota, are about as childish as they come.

 

[Foreman4x4]

>Maybe it would help if you
>knew just a little about
>my background...................
>
>I have 5 years experince as
>an optician (lab and dispensing)
>
>
>I was a US Navy Opticalman
>for 4 years went to
>tech schools in both Great
>Lakes Il and New london
>CT, serviced thousands of pairs
>of binoculars, hundereds of periscopes,
>lots and lots of telescopes,
>numerous navigational instruments.
>
>4 years experience servicing opthalmic intruments
>(eye doctors equipments) microscopes, astonomical
>telescopes, and tons of binoculars.
>
>
>2 years experience in laser optics.
>


That and a $1.00 might get you a cup of coffee...

 

[vichris]

>That and a $1.00 might get
>you a cup of coffee...
>


Add that to another childish remark.

 

[mtmuley]

First, I apologize for my childish remark. Second, No, your background doesn't matter, you look through and percieve optic quality just as anyone else looks through an optic and forms an opinion. Third, I will not apologize for being sceptical of all the new companies and their product as I prefer to do business with an established one. Fourth, It's hard to believe a few posters on this forum have no affiliation with these new companies. mtmuley

 

[Foreman4x4]

I was completely wrong and I apologize too. A cup of coffee is more like a $1.50......

 

[fatrooster]

Now thats funny Foreman. fatrooster.