New Forest ORDERS

bobby

bobby

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New orders just dropped , campgrounds closed through 6/30 and zero camp fires either . not sure what camp fires has to do with the rona , but its just a matter of time before they shut them down entirely

www.fs.usda.gov

Santa Fe - News & Events

Santa Fe - News & Events
www.fs.usda.gov
 
To be clear, you can still camp on Forest land, just not at the established campgrounds apparently; and no fires I guess, which yeah, what that has to do with the ronazz is beyond me.
 
for now yes dispersed is still allowed but no fires. This is the last step before they close them down Entirely. im sure . They want total control im sick of this nonsense already
 
This is getting stupid. I am here in NJ (alive and well and working outside today on a beautiful sunny cool spring day, don't know anybody directly who is sick and god bless those that are, but this is affecting hardly anyone directly as a % of population) and other than being cognizant of some distance, limiting your social circle and not touching your face, everything pretty much COULD be almost normal, without all of this government power grabbing and willful implosion of the country. Right about now, a lot of people in the west are realizing (as your like minded people who are "trapped" in the east (or west coast) have known for a LONG time) there is nothing government wants more than power, and they are accountable to NO ONE. So let's save the world from corona virus by shutting down the woods and open space recreation (the best kind in a pandemic by the way) bit by bit that WE OWN. Yeah that will solve it.

And there is nothing we can do but complain to each other it seems... our friendly government who works for use would just have you put your comments and concerns in the suggestion box.... it's the boxy looking thing over there with the bear-proof lid.
 
bobby said:
New orders just dropped , campgrounds closed through 6/30 and zero camp fires either . not sure what camp fires has to do with the rona , but its just a matter of time before they shut them down entirely

www.fs.usda.gov

Santa Fe - News & Events

Santa Fe - News & Events
www.fs.usda.gov
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I’m pretty sure the no fires is just because nobody wants to deal with forest fires and the zombie apocalypse at the same time
 
Protecting fire crews is great, not sure if this addresses that as most wildfires are probably arson or lighting. Please correct me if that is ill-informed as I didn't research it.

And if this is the zombie apocalypse, we have all over-prepared. Everyone can still get a drive-through latte and all milk, eggs, bread, Oreo cookies and fresh tropical fruit you can carry at any store. My dog is still able to get premium dogfood. And that's in NJ.... where it is painted RED on all the maps. I realize people in the inner cities have it tougher (due to Corona or the new rules?) But trust me, I have never seen so many people out jogging, walking their dogs, barbequing in their back yards, slacking off at work (from home) and wasting their lives on facebook…. so not much has really, I mean REALLY changed except that well-off people have a crapload of free time on their hands while all of our kids are getting set back in their education and small business owners and millions of powerless employees are having their economic lives destroyed by draconian shut-downs of the economy that are meant to make mayors and governors feel good but are completely beyond the pale compared to any reaction to prior national emergencies. And finally to add insult to injury.... they are closing the OUTSDOORS piece by peice. I am just hoping enough people scream ENOUGH.
 
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Lot of questions out there right now as to the true lethality of this thing. People need to learn to live with it and not afraid of it.

A vaccine will eventually come, but how many want to live in 1905 conditions...?
 
All forest roads were closed today in Jemez. They keep this up and someone will yank the gates open with a chain or cut the locks.
 
First of all , God be with those who are sick ,their families, and protect the rest of us that aren't .
I do agree, this is getting out of control. The state , meaning business and non essential workers are on track to resume business as usual on the first of May, but the camp grounds are closed until June 30? This is just screaming at me LIBERAL GOVERNMENT. If anyone with half a brain would look at this I think they'd agree that all forms of social lives in the cities should stay closed longer than the camp grounds . Bars, breweries, night clubs, movie theaters, zoos , festivals, etc. You get where I'm going. Makes no sense to me! Maybe it's me idk
 
BUGLEnmIN said:
First of all , God be with those who are sick ,their families, and protect the rest of us that aren't .
I do agree, this is getting out of control. The state , meaning business and non essential workers are on track to resume business as usual on the first of May, but the camp grounds are closed until June 30? This is just screaming at me LIBERAL GOVERNMENT. If anyone with half a brain would look at this I think they'd agree that all forms of social lives in the cities should stay closed longer than the camp grounds . Bars, breweries, night clubs, movie theaters, zoos , festivals, etc. You get where I'm going. Makes no sense to me! Maybe it's me idk
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It's not you. This will begin to have an extreme psychological effect on people before much longer.

And it won't be pretty I'm afraid.

As far as Nat'l Forest closures, that's BS. Both USFS and BLM are under federal authority, not state. Hope the head foresters are not taking marching orders from Michele Wuhan Grisham.
 
Mayor of Farmington to open businesses back up. It's about time someone stands up for the economy. I'm not for spreading the virus but if big box stores, grocery stores can operate the small businesses should have the same opportunity. We should limit public exposure but with limits not complete shut downs.
Like Grisham shutting down locally owned plant nurseries here in abq but yet Lowes, Home depot can still sell items in thier garden dept.
Shutting Church's down but keeping abortion clinics open. This is corrupt. NM aborts around 347,000 each year alone. The left is so upside down.
The bible states in the end they will call good evil and evil good. Were in the end no doubt.
Also Calibers suppose to open despite MLG opposition on our 2nd ammendment. Good for Calibers.
 
Barrera said:
Mayor of Farmington to open businesses back up. It's about time someone stands up for the economy. I'm not for spreading the virus but if big box stores, grocery stores can operate the small businesses should have the same opportunity. We should limit public exposure but with limits not complete shut downs.
Like Grisham shutting down locally owned plant nurseries here in abq but yet Lowes, Home depot can still sell items in thier garden dept.
Shutting Church's down but keeping abortion clinics open. This is corrupt. NM aborts around 347,000 each year alone. The left is so upside down.
The bible states in the end they will call good evil and evil good. Were in the end no doubt.
Also Calibers suppose to open despite MLG opposition on our 2nd ammendment. Good for Calibers.
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Absolutely Mr Adam! Your %100 right! Every word ????
 
Barrera said:
Mayor of Farmington to open businesses back up. It's about time someone stands up for the economy. I'm not for spreading the virus but if big box stores, grocery stores can operate the small businesses should have the same opportunity. We should limit public exposure but with limits not complete shut downs.
Like Grisham shutting down locally owned plant nurseries here in abq but yet Lowes, Home depot can still sell items in thier garden dept.
Shutting Church's down but keeping abortion clinics open. This is corrupt. NM aborts around 347,000 each year alone. The left is so upside down.
The bible states in the end they will call good evil and evil good. Were in the end no doubt.
Also Calibers suppose to open despite MLG opposition on our 2nd ammendment. Good for Calibers.
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Lawsuits flying about other liberal gov'rs closing church gatherings last weekend. Pretty sure theu could fly here. Gov'r has no authority to suppress freedom of worship, even during a health crisis.

Other places in democrat states where people are protesting at the capital bldgs about gov't overreach on local levels. Farmington is in bad enough shape with depressed oil and gas prices for a long period and now the shuttering of the other two good paying job providers. Been no secret that Wuhan Grisham wants to silence SJ county, a Republican stronghold and a thorn in the side for the left.

We are indeed in some pretty trying times where it is OK to terminate a failed abortion when the infant is alive and well on its own. There is a special place in hell for those kind of people. No wonder there is a scourge across the globe, maybe its time to turn to God and away from man...
 
could the FR closures be due to the snow and wanting to keep them from getting rutted up until they dry out?
 
Any sanctioned or organized gathering is a bad idea for the organization, Gov't or private. I've got an ME friend in NYC who signed 110 c19 death certificates in 24 hours, and she's one of ten in the city. ER docs are calling this a "boomer cleaner" -prepare for 18 months of closures, or a 10 million person death toll. 25% of hospitalized patients over 80 have died in Colorado, and that's with a 5 star critical care system that isn't overwhelmed. Closing designated campsites, bars, gyms, etc is a small price to pay in comparison to what we stand to lose.
 
Well Bluff, it is tragic that Americans do die from illness. Every single life is unique and special in the eyes of God. Death is a fact of life sir. As more information is discovered about this Coronavirus, I believe the morbidity will be close to 0.1 % which is equivalent to the current influenza morbidity rate. It is 3x more contagious but far less lethal than the fear mongers are mandating we believe. It's a lie !!!! Absolutely we should take steps to protect the vulnerable, I have loved ones in that category. The foolish Leftist who think it's just fine that everyone sit at home and collect a US government check for 12- 18 month are SO STUPID it makes my head EXPLODE. It can't and won't happen. What ever happened to our school system teaching economics and for that Matter the Constitution!!!
 
You most likely will respond to my post with how I am ignorant and promoting reckless behavior, I am neither. I will be watching your posts regarding this come September.
 
My wife’s a nurse practitioner. She puts her and my families health at risk every damn day fighting this virus. Y’all need to be glad you can sit around and complain about low morbidity rates and closed businesses. That means social distancing and the shut down has worked for your neck of the woods so far. You turn this beast loose in small town NM where you already have a struggling healthcare system you won’t have those same grips anymore I promise. Count your blessings. This isn’t a left or right issue it’s a public health issue, it’s too bad that OUR community can’t see it that way and there’s nothing but name calling and finger pointing for both sides. Bunch of ignorant babies fighting for control. It’s embarrassing. Look in the mirror. I come here to read about hunting not your opinions about abortions. Let’s keep it that way!!!
 
AlleninNM said:
Where did you hear the forest roads in the Jemez were closed? That could be a problem.
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I went up to hunt turkey like I do every year. Roads that are normally open were closed. Called Jemez forest district fo find out what's up and no one answer the phones and no recordings.
 
Called Cuba district yesterday and was informed there is no timeline established for reopening gates on fr70 due to the high volumes of people that enter the area and the department wanting to minimize the amount of people gathering.
 
Burns

Your hypocrisy is amazing. Your post has nothing to do with hunting. So this is a great place for you to voice your politics and world views but you are mad that others do? For the record, abortion is horrible and one of the most disgusting acts in the world today. However, people line up to protect and cheer it. ALL should stand firmly against that, not just here, but everywhere they have a platform.

I really appreciate medical personnel. You should be proud of your wife’s service. Most in the field are working hard against this, as they have against other diseases in the past at risk to themselves.

That said, we need to get back to normal. Testing, treatments, and intelligent reopening. Every life has value, in the womb or 90+ years old. Those at high risk will need to live accordingly, those who are voiceless need advocates.

God bless you
 
Exactly this...my wife is a CRNA and I feel the same way. All while we have taken a pay cut bc of elective surgery cancellations...

Burns said:
My wife’s a nurse practitioner. She puts her and my families health at risk every damn day fighting this virus. Y’all need to be glad you can sit around and complain about low morbidity rates and closed businesses. That means social distancing and the shut down has worked for your neck of the woods so far. You turn this beast loose in small town NM where you already have a struggling healthcare system you won’t have those same grips anymore I promise. Count your blessings. This isn’t a left or right issue it’s a public health issue, it’s too bad that OUR community can’t see it that way and there’s nothing but name calling and finger pointing for both sides. Bunch of ignorant babies fighting for control. It’s embarrassing. Look in the mirror. I come here to read about hunting not your opinions about abortions. Let’s keep it that way!!!
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Burns said:
My wife’s a nurse practitioner. She puts her and my families health at risk every damn day fighting this virus. Y’all need to be glad you can sit around and complain about low morbidity rates and closed businesses. That means social distancing and the shut down has worked for your neck of the woods so far. You turn this beast loose in small town NM where you already have a struggling healthcare system you won’t have those same grips anymore I promise. Count your blessings. This isn’t a left or right issue it’s a public health issue, it’s too bad that OUR community can’t see it that way and there’s nothing but name calling and finger pointing for both sides. Bunch of ignorant babies fighting for control. It’s embarrassing. Look in the mirror. I come here to read about hunting not your opinions about abortions. Let’s keep it that way!!!
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I don't think you or that other guy realize the even worse scenario that WILL happen if things stay as they are for the next 18 months.

Count your blessings our industries and economic infrastructure was so strong when this thing hit. 18 months from now, it won't be.

The biggest issue we face today is we think we cannot function without vaccines. This does NOT mean I don't believe in them and their benefits. It means we cannot run and hide everytime a virus pops up unexpectedly.
 
The biggest killer to Americans will be a financial collapse of our economy. Something we haven't ever experienced in our lives yet. Then there would be no hospitals etc. US can only shut down so long but will need to keep pressing forward knowing the cost at stake. I'm have severe asthma and a family to care for but also above myself need to provide for my family and country to survive for future generations God Willing. We pray for our country daily and are believers in Christ and this free country.
Theres a balance that has to be met to get through this and shutting our economy off entirely isnt the answer. The Gov cant support nation on welfare at this scale very long. That's why Trump has is attempting a plan to open up the economy before we dont have a economy.... I hope we dont have a economic collapse as that will be a virus no one can escape and take a lot longer to recover from.
 
lovehunting said:
I went up to hunt turkey like I do every year. Roads that are normally open were closed. Called Jemez forest district fo find out what's up and no one answer the phones and no recordings.
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Ok. Yeah they have not opened up roads as quickly as in previous years. Even some of the road that have a sign indicating they will open April 15 have not opened. Just wanted to make sure there was not an actual order saying the roads were to be closed. I have also called and left a message and sent an email regarding the roads. No response.
 
Do they really need a order to close roads? How come no one answer phones or see any service trucks out and about? Could they do this on the low down if none complains?
 
Ltsheets said:
Exactly this...my wife is a CRNA and I feel the same way. All while we have taken a pay cut bc of elective surgery cancellations...
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And I'm a physician here in Lea County. Keep seeing people from Albuquerque coming down in their $300,000 rigs with their $18,000 RZRs to ride off road in the dunes between us and Roswell. Meanwhile I can't even go to my church with only 60 people in a county with no cases for weeks - no thanks to the governor not keeping that virus confined where she should. Gates are closed to wilderness areas, but the gate to Mcdonalds and Walmart are wide open? As stated earlier so someone can get their latte's. Social distancing yes, confinement - no - not in areas where the disease is not endemic. The shutdown is exactly why your wife is getting a paycut LOL. Shortages are starting to happen because of a lack of production But people can't see past the end of their fear to see the real dangers
 
Well thank you provides some insight. However road 10 is usually opened by this time. Maybe their is still snow up high or they will enforce to end of May.
 
There is no way for me to summarize the volume of scientific data I have read on this as a part of my day job.

On topic, closing forests can keep people from places with lots of cases and community spread from ending up in places without cases or community spread. I'm not advocating closing dispersed recreation on forests, for the record. However, US cases were brought here by people coming from areas with community spread, like China and Italy, most of these were US citizens without any restrictions on their travel, so this can happen internally as well, and little rural places could have 100% infection rate and little hospital infrastructure and end up with a 20% death rate.

Off topic, @Servehim: you need to look at Iceland's data, along with Italy's and Spain's, and realize that your 0.1% death rate is probably a 10x underestimate. Possibly even more. Also, it is not a blanket death rate, it increases quite a bit with age. Death IS inevitable, but most of the people dying weren't going to die this year and many not in the next 5-20 years. I don't know what you do for a living, but I don't have the luxury of complaining from home about my pocketbook. This is going to take a village, a concerted effort by all US citizens on the behalf of all US citizens. I'm tired of watching people die early, and I'm tired of intubating people in their 20s and 30s without any medical problems. And I'm tired of hearing people spout uninformed or misinformed opinions they heard from unreputable sources. "Stay in your lane."

Lastly, you'll see me hunting this fall, unless I die in the line of duty from this, but I'll be doing it in the safest way possible.
 
Bluff, you can't be short sighted either about the larger impact a depressed economy will have.

Expect crime to rise considerably. Expect a shortage of basic hygiene products. Expect the medical industry to collapse in ways you cannot fathom. Expect the food supply chain to be compromised.

We are not talking about the the ones who get sick and can't work for a few days or the ones who succumb. We are talking about all of the other nuts and bolts that holds everything in place to be a smooth running engine.

You're sick and tired!? Get in line. People on edge right now because some in the healthcare/medical field will not "stay in their lane"...
 
BluffGruff,

"Death IS inevitable, but most of the people dying weren't going to die this year and many not in the next 5-20 years"

"little rural places could have 100% infection rate and little hospital infrastructure and end up with a 20% death rate."

I would have to disagree with these statements. Almost all of the people dying from COVID would likely be dead from other health issues in the next 5-20 years. It is killing a few young healthy people but the truth is a young healthy person is more than 10X more likely to die from a car wreck this year than the coronavirus.

Even if there was zero medical care, we would not see even close to a 20% death rate from COVID.

If we really want to save lives we could ban the use of all motor vehicles. I'll probably see more people die this year from MVC than COVID. While we are at it we should also dictate exactly what everyone is allowed to eat. Many more people will die in the US this year from poor dietary choices than COVID. We could save more lives if the USA outlawed all the processed garbage and fast food that people eat. There needs to be a balance between shutting down personal freedoms, the economy and keeping people safe.

Unfortunately we don't know enough about this virus yet so I think many of the social distancing measures have be wise but some have been ridiculous and do little or nothing to prevent spread. People getting mad at me for taking my dog for a walk are a perfect example of this stupidity. The risk of family members going for a walk in their neighborhood of getting or spreading the virus is minimal and the benefits outweigh the risks. The risk of spreading or getting COVID on BLM, National Forest or a lake like Elephant Butte is minimal to nonexistent.

I'm staying in my lane because I could be intubating a COVID patient at any point today and will almost certainly be intubating COVID patients over the next few months. I'm on the front lines and can tell you that at this point it looks like the curve is beginning to flatten and almost all hospitals across the US haven't even been close to being overwhelmed by COVID patients. This includes most New York hospitals. Hopefully the curve continues to flatten and we don't see any bad 2nd, 3rd or 4th waves from this virus but we do need to look at reopening the economy in areas it is safe to do so.

Unless a majority of hospital systems get overwhelmed then the small rural hospitals will continue to transfer out the really sick patients just like they always have. Small rural hospitals won't be managing a COVID patient on a vent for a week or more unless they don't have the option to transfer the patient. I'm more scared of the psychological effects of COVID than the physical effects.
 
I was just thinking we had a big dump of snow Mon night, at least here in ABQ and east mountains. Assumed that was the case in Jemez too.
 
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Campfire restrictions are in place as a preemptive measure because firefighters can’t be mobilized as normal from out of state. Firefighting capacity is greatly diminished. So let’s save a town or a home by not having a fire get out of hand in these spring winds! By the way 90% of wildfires are human caused and a great deal of those ..... wait for it.... are from ....... you guessed it.... abandoned CAMPFIRES!!!
 
BluffGruff said:
There is no way for me to summarize the volume of scientific data I have read on this as a part of my day job.

On topic, closing forests can keep people from places with lots of cases and community spread from ending up in places without cases or community spread. I'm not advocating closing dispersed recreation on forests, for the record. However, US cases were brought here by people coming from areas with community spread, like China and Italy, most of these were US citizens without any restrictions on their travel, so this can happen internally as well, and little rural places could have 100% infection rate and little hospital infrastructure and end up with a 20% death rate.

Off topic, @Servehim: you need to look at Iceland's data, along with Italy's and Spain's, and realize that your 0.1% death rate is probably a 10x underestimate. Possibly even more. Also, it is not a blanket death rate, it increases quite a bit with age. Death IS inevitable, but most of the people dying weren't going to die this year and many not in the next 5-20 years. I don't know what you do for a living, but I don't have the luxury of complaining from home about my pocketbook. This is going to take a village, a concerted effort by all US citizens on the behalf of all US citizens. I'm tired of watching people die early, and I'm tired of intubating people in their 20s and 30s without any medical problems. And I'm tired of hearing people spout uninformed or misinformed opinions they heard from unreputable sources. "Stay in your lane."

Lastly, you'll see me hunting this fall, unless I die in the line of duty from this, but I'll be doing it in the safest way possible.
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Are you a doctor bluff? If so, what kind and from where? Just curious.
 
BluffGruff said:
There is no way for me to summarize the volume of scientific data I have read on this as a part of my day job.

On topic, closing forests can keep people from places with lots of cases and community spread from ending up in places without cases or community spread. I'm not advocating closing dispersed recreation on forests, for the record. However, US cases were brought here by people coming from areas with community spread, like China and Italy, most of these were US citizens without any restrictions on their travel, so this can happen internally as well, and little rural places could have 100% infection rate and little hospital infrastructure and end up with a 20% death rate.

Off topic, @Servehim: you need to look at Iceland's data, along with Italy's and Spain's, and realize that your 0.1% death rate is probably a 10x underestimate. Possibly even more. Also, it is not a blanket death rate, it increases quite a bit with age. Death IS inevitable, but most of the people dying weren't going to die this year and many not in the next 5-20 years. I don't know what you do for a living, but I don't have the luxury of complaining from home about my pocketbook. This is going to take a village, a concerted effort by all US citizens on the behalf of all US citizens. I'm tired of watching people die early, and I'm tired of intubating people in their 20s and 30s without any medical problems. And I'm tired of hearing people spout uninformed or misinformed opinions they heard from unreputable sources. "Stay in your lane."

Lastly, you'll see me hunting this fall, unless I die in the line of duty from this, but I'll be doing it in the safest way possible.
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Just curious sir if youre still so dogmatic in following the trolls telling Americans that this virus is the end of the world as we know it IF we don't bow down ???? Well Bluff , who is Closer ? My prediction of
.1 % or yours of 1% ( 10x factor) just the facts ma'am.
 
Intubated one of the second wave of cases last night, letting a 44 year old (no health problems) who has been vented for 4 weeks die this morning. Front line work is a *****. 60K deaths, doesn't affect you now? It will. Aren't scared? Apparently not, but you will be. You will be.
 
Servehim said:
Just curious sir if youre still so dogmatic in following the trolls telling Americans that this virus is the end of the world as we know it IF we don't bow down ???? Well Bluff , who is Closer ? My prediction of
.1 % or yours of 1% ( 10x factor) just the facts ma'am.
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It looks like it will be the average of those two guesses. Probably closer to the 1% if it was left unchecked from the beginning.
 
BluffGruff said:
Intubated one of the second wave of cases last night, letting a 44 year old (no health problems) who has been vented for 4 weeks die this morning. Front line work is a *****. 60K deaths, doesn't affect you now? It will. Aren't scared? Apparently not, but you will be. You will be.
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You never answered my question. What type of dr are you?
 
It’s time to get back to work. Every life is valuable, don’t misunderstand me. Bluff may be an er doc, he may be chief of staff, he may be a nurse. It really doesn’t matter, he may be face to face with death and hurt from this that few of us can imagine. That’s hard, and bluff, I appreciate your service. However, that struggle is likely the single most powerful thing that disqualifies you from seeing this for what it is. Millions, tens of millions of people have lost their livelihood. I’m not talking about discretionary funds, they wonder how they will put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads, the heads of their kids. Millions of others are alone, unable to socialize, to have joy. This country can not be run by a dr, or an economist, or employees, or any other acute angle. It takes leadership that factors in all facets. I run a small business and I have competent advisors and employees. I value ALL of their insight but at the end of the day my cpa wants decisions based around $, my insurer wants my focus to be coverage, legal advisors look mainly at liability mitigation, employees want streamlined work. None of them can have it all, it’s my job to balance it to stay above water. Your view makes sense because your life’s work obviously involves saving lives. Thanks again for your service. However, I would encourage you to look outside of your view to see what everyone outside of front line medical fields see plainly. Just as we need to see your view on the inside. I think any reasonable view from 30,000 feet sees this as no longer a medical emergency, but something much bigger. ALL of the models have been incredibly wrong, and it’s high time for docs to admit that and stop acting like this will be the end of existence. Let’s get back to work.

God bless you and God bless America
 
I dont hurt like you might assume, no one I know personally has died, just a bunch of strangers, but every one of them had people who loved them. We need a functioning food supply, and having money to keep up even the bare-bones life we once had is important, but when your family and friends start dying because we needed to work for morale reasons like Georgia is proposing, I'm not going to be able to do much more than shrug. Huge segment of society is relatively insulated from this, but that naivity is going to quickly disappear as people go back to work. The poor will shoulder the burden of both the disease and the economics of social distancing, but a rich business owner dies about the same way as a grocery stocker or a butcher, already seen both.
 
BluffGruff said:
I dont hurt like you might assume, no one I know personally has died, just a bunch of strangers, but every one of them had people who loved them. We need a functioning food supply, and having money to keep up even the bare-bones life we once had is important, but when your family and friends start dying because we needed to work for morale reasons like Georgia is proposing, I'm not going to be able to do much more than shrug. Huge segment of society is relatively insulated from this, but that naivity is going to quickly disappear as people go back to work. The poor will shoulder the burden of both the disease and the economics of social distancing, but a rich business owner dies about the same way as a grocery stocker or a butcher, already seen both.
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The world didn't stop when my father in law died from what millions die of every year, and EVERYONE including you can die from it as well.

Naivety has NOTHING to do with anything. The real world and factual data do.
 
BluffGruff said:
The poor will shoulder the burden of both the disease and the economics of social distancing, but a rich business owner dies about the same way as a grocery stocker or a butcher, already seen both.
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BluffGruff,

Many seem to forget that their physical health is their most valuable earthly asset. I've seen many very rich and very poor men and women die under the same conditions. This virus doesn't care how rich or poor you are.

I'll admitted that I've suffered from PTSD from things I've seen working in health care. It doesn't compare to the PTSD that some of our combat veterans deal with but seeing people die does cause a degree of mental stress. Over time you become more numb to it but once and a while I still come across a situation that is particularly disturbing.

Unfortunately, I don't think we are going to get to go back to normal until we get a vaccine for this. That could take a couple years. I'm optimistic that things will get better over the next couple months but I think this is going to be particularly hard couple years for nursing homes and health care workers. At least the NM governor is becoming a little more logical by loosing some of the restrictions that did very little or nothing to prevent spread of COVID.

Even though I many not agree with some of your ideas on how to deal with this, I hope you stay safe and healthy through all this mess.
 
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BluffGruff said:
I dont hurt like you might assume, no one I know personally has died, just a bunch of strangers, but every one of them had people who loved them. We need a functioning food supply, and having money to keep up even the bare-bones life we once had is important, but when your family and friends start dying because we needed to work for morale reasons like Georgia is proposing, I'm not going to be able to do much more than shrug. Huge segment of society is relatively insulated from this, but that naivity is going to quickly disappear as people go back to work. The poor will shoulder the burden of both the disease and the economics of social distancing, but a rich business owner dies about the same way as a grocery stocker or a butcher, already seen both.
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And you still avoid my question.....
 
BrianID said:
BluffGruff,

Many seem to forget that their physical health is their most valuable earthly asset. I've seen many very rich and very poor men and women die under the same conditions. This virus doesn't care how rich or poor you are.

I'll admitted that I've suffered from PTSD from things I've seen working in health care. It doesn't compare to the PTSD that some of our combat veterans deal with but seeing people die does cause a degree of mental stress. Over time you become more numb to it but once and a while I still come across a situation that is particularly disturbing.

Unfortunately, I don't think we are going to get to go back to normal until we get a vaccine for this. That could take a couple years. I'm optimistic that things will get better over the next couple months but I think this is going to be particularly hard couple years for nursing homes and health care workers. At least the NM governor is becoming a little more logical by loosing some of the restrictions that did very little or nothing to prevent spread of COVID.

Even though I many not agree with some of your ideas on how to deal with this, I hope you stay safe and healthy through all this mess.
Click to expand...

We will get back to normal as soon as people realize we need to, vaccine or not. Life will go on, the sun will rise each day. Don't forget about the PTSD that people go through from domestic violence and sexual abuse - I'd wager that will trump most forms of PTSD.

NM's gov'r has no choice, I'm sure her office is getting a lot of crossfire right now based on how successful other states have been and their understanding of what needs to get done. She also lost her battle against the Mayor of Grants.

MLG could take a lesson from many other governors on what real leadership is all about. I hope NM remembers well this whole debacle in 2022...
 
There are two endgames to this pandemic. A working vaccine, or herd immunity. More and more data from the antibody studies now going on in NY and CA is showing that a high percentage of people had the disease with very mild or even no symptoms whatsoever. This indicates that the denominator is much larger than initially thought, meaning the death rate is going to drop by a huge margin. Yes, some young people will die from the virus, however statistically the percentage of young people who die from the disease is going to be very, very small.

Most of the European data is showing the average age of Covid patients who die is about 80 years old. Half of the deaths are in nursing home residents. I forget the country where the statistic came from, but they had more people over 100 die than people under 30.

Most healthcare advisors are trying to enact policies that limit the number of deaths from Covid 19 to the bare minimum. The problem is that they are looking at the trees, not the whole forest. When dealing with an entire country, or state, you have to take the view from 30,000 feet and look at the repercussions of these policies. If spousal abuse, child abuse, drug abuse and poverty all increase then those policies, while being a success in limiting Covid 19 deaths, have been a dismal failure.

The major failure here in NM and in many other states is that the shelter in place orders, and what are considered essential vs. non-essential businesses makes no sense. If the regulations do not make sense, then you do not get buy in from the public. Then the public does not listen to any of the orders. For example, shutting down all the small businesses and concentrating everyone at the big box stores, or closing parks and outdoor recreation areas such as golf courses.

I think that an approach such as that taken by Sweden or South Dakota is more appropriate for NM. I have followed this disease very closely since the beginning and the longer that it plays out, the more I am convinced that herd immunity is going to be the answer. The disease is transmissible enough that the policies needed to keep it totally locked down until a vaccine is available are too damaging to the economy and to other aspects of society.
 
I have heard that the government is telling fire and law enforcement agencies that if someone dies in a fire or a vehicle accident to put reason of death covid. So the numbers that the news is reporting of deaths are not even accurate.
 
roadrunner,

I totally agree we need to start opening things up. Psychologically and economically we can't wait the time it takes to develop a safe effective vaccine. Some of these government restrictions have been dumb and do nothing to prevent the spread of COVID. As I said before, I'm more worried about the psychological effects of this virus than the physical effects. I also hope NM voters remember the recent government overstep when MLG is up for reelection. Unfortunately NM has a lot of democratic voters that will vote for politicians that promise them free things from the government.

The main goal of flattening the curve was to slow the spread of the virus so that hospitals are not overwhelmed. Flattening the curve with our social distancing measures will not reduce the number of people infected, it just spreads out the infections over a greater period of time. If the extra time allows us to discover better treatments, then the severity of the illness for some people and death rate could be mitigated.

None of us have a crystal ball but at this point we do have solid evidence that the death rate of COVID isn't going to be as bad as the media and democrats told us it would be.
 
It is a rough career path to be in the healthcare profession right now. I Thank Bluff for his service in caring for those effected by the Coronavirus. I truly do mean that Bluff, Thanks. As I stated to you earlier, death is unfortunately a sad part of life . Everyone here dies it's just a Matter of when, you sir can't change that fact. This illness is with us for months if not years to come. Those who subscribe to much of what you believe should happen with regard to dealing with this illness are short sighted and foolish. Our government will collapse with no economy i.e. no tax revenue coming in and Trillions going out. A wise man must prevail, open our economy with the vulnerable among us being protected to the very best of our ability. There is no other path through this sir.
 
BrianID said:
The main goal of flattening the curve was to slow the spread of the virus so that hospitals are not overwhelmed. Flattening the curve with our social distancing measures will not reduce the number of people infected, it just spreads out the infections over a greater period of time. If the extra time allows us to discover better treatments, then the severity of the illness for some people and death rate could be mitigated.
Click to expand...

Flattening the curve is a buzz phrase used by people where the thing of threat can be isolated and maintained on a much more manageable level, such as a state, a county, a city. Not an entire nation. It's better to rip the band-aid off quickly rather than slowly. Medical people signed up for the profession and knew what could happen in times like these. Medical people being "overworked" right now (like the rest of us are during times of emergency in our industries) are a result of failed public policy.

The inherent problem with MLG's very incompetent and misguided measures are that they are keeping people in close contact with one another, and exposing those in the "hotspots" for a longer duration. The best preventive measure right now is a lot of outside time in the sun.

The NW corner of the state is being held hostage right now because of the reservation. That is a fact and it cannot be disputed.
 
We have a flu "Vaccine" now and 45 to 65k still die every year. So a new cavrona vaccine will do what ? 90 % of us will eventually get this no matter what we do. We have been had. Now they are saying you can get reinfected after you have had it, so a new vaccine will do absolutely nada.
 
cosmic_cowboy,

From the research I've read, once you get COVID19 you will likely have immunity for at least a year or possibly much longer. There have been people that have tested positive a 2nd time but I'm not aware of any cases of people getting really sick from COVID19 a 2nd time. Unless we get research showing people getting sick a 2nd time from COVID19 it is just another one of those false rumors. We know much more about the effects and treatments for this virus than we did a couple months ago. We will know even more in a couple months.

We have so many people die from the flu after getting the flu vaccine because there are many different strains of the. The vaccine given every year is targeting the strains that we believe will be most common for that flu season. Without a flu vaccine, we would see many more people die from the flu every year.

We don't know how effective of a vaccine we will be able to create for COVID19 at this point. I'm optimistic that we will have a very effective vaccine. However, it is very unlikely we will have an effective vaccine by the end of this year and it could potentially take much longer. COVID19 could also mutate and we could be dealing with multiple strains making vaccines very effective just like we have with the regular flu. Look at how effective other vaccines have been. Polio is basically nonexistent in the US. Just ask old timers or people who lived in countries without widespread polio vaccination rates on how bad polio was. In my opinion polio is a worse disease than COVID19.

With all of our medical advancements we don't accept death like people use to. 150 years ago it was common for less than 1/2 of the babies born in a family to die before they became adults. Now the death of a baby or child is rare.
 
roadrunner said:
Flattening the curve is a buzz phrase used by people where the thing of threat can be isolated and maintained on a much more manageable level, such as a state, a county, a city. Not an entire nation. It's better to rip the band-aid off quickly rather than slowly. Medical people signed up for the profession and knew what could happen in times like these. Medical people being "overworked" right now (like the rest of us are during times of emergency in our industries) are a result of failed public policy.

The inherent problem with MLG's very incompetent and misguided measures are that they are keeping people in close contact with one another, and exposing those in the "hotspots" for a longer duration. The best preventive measure right now is a lot of outside time in the sun.

The NW corner of the state is being held hostage right now because of the reservation. That is a fact and it cannot be disputed.
Click to expand...

All of us are getting tired of hearing phrases like "flattening the curve" and "social distancing".

Medical people are not getting "overworked" right now. That is a one of the biggest lies being spread by the media. Most medical people are actually getting underworked right now. I know many doctors, nurses and others that are working very little or who have being "temporarily laid off" because elective procedures have been postponed. I have a coworker that flew into New York last month to help with the COVID crisis there. A day after arriving, they told him, they no longer needed him and bought him a plane ticket home. Any healthcare worker that is working excessively during this crisis is choosing to do so. Private healthcare workers are not in the military and they can't mandate us to work more hours than we are contracted to. They can always quit their job if they think they are being overworked or don't have adequate PPE (masks, gowns, face shields, etc) People in healthcare can end up working very hard some days but so do people that work on farms, construction, restaurant industry, etc. I've had my share of "bad shifts" over the years but none of them hold a candle to what many of our combat veterans have done for their job.


I completely agree with you that we need to "rip the bandaid off". It made sense to have temporary social distancing restrictions in places like New York. I think some minor restrictions or recommendations in NM and other Western State would have been more than adequate. I do think the Navajo Nation is more vulnerable to this virus but any restrictions in NW NM should be up to the Navajo people, not MLG. Native Americans should be even less trusting of some that says "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." As long as hospitals have room for additional patients, we should relax the restrictions.

We should be all very thankful for MLG because she is now allowing golf, limited retail and some of the state parks to open. We should all forget about the harm to the mental health, personal freedoms, education and the economy that these restrictions have caused. It will be interesting to see if Swedens plan results in the same infection rate and death rate as other similar countries.
 
BrianID said:
All of us are getting tired of hearing phrases like "flattening the curve" and "social distancing".

Medical people are not getting "overworked" right now. That is a one of the biggest lies being spread by the media. Most medical people are actually getting underworked right now. I know many doctors, nurses and others that are working very little or who have being "temporarily laid off" because elective procedures have been postponed. I have a coworker that flew into New York last month to help with the COVID crisis there. A day after arriving, they told him, they no longer needed him and bought him a plane ticket home. Any healthcare worker that is working excessively during this crisis is choosing to do so. Private healthcare workers are not in the military and they can't mandate us to work more hours than we are contracted to. They can always quit their job if they think they are being overworked or don't have adequate PPE (masks, gowns, face shields, etc) People in healthcare can end up working very hard some days but so do people that work on farms, construction, restaurant industry, etc. I've had my share of "bad shifts" over the years but none of them hold a candle to what many of our combat veterans have done for their job.


I completely agree with you that we need to "rip the bandaid off". It made sense to have temporary social distancing restrictions in places like New York. I think some minor restrictions or recommendations in NM and other Western State would have been more than adequate. I do think the Navajo Nation is more vulnerable to this virus but any restrictions in NW NM should be up to the Navajo people, not MLG. Native Americans should be even less trusting of some that says "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." As long as hospitals have room for additional patients, we should relax the restrictions.

We should be all very thankful for MLG because she is now allowing golf, limited retail and some of the state parks to open. We should all forget about the harm to the mental health, personal freedoms, education and the economy that these restrictions have caused. It will be interesting to see if Swedens plan results in the same infection rate and death rate as other similar countries.
Click to expand...

The biggest problem is MLG being in a position to allow anything and the only other thing the tribe should be allowed to govern is what happens within those borders and not outside. They actually started this a while ago. The first problem in the NW region began there and worked east...
 
Isn't it nice that she targeted liquor stores around the reservations to be closed? Could you imagine how racist that would have been if a Republican governor had done it? I guess it can't be racist because it was tribal leaders that asked for it.
 
Last edited:
BrianID said:
Isn't it nice that she targeted liquor stores around the reservations to be closed? Could you imagine how racist that would have been if a Republican governor had done it? I guess it can't be racist because it was tribal leaders that asked for it.
Click to expand...

Tribal law prohibits alcohol on reservation lands. There are plenty of gas stations and grocery stores on tribal lands to get them through weekends in comfort.

Part of the other problem is, Navajo Lake State park is very, very popular and would pull a lot of prople up from Sandoval and Bernalillo counties...
 
BrianID
The point I was making is Covid 19 is out of the box and eventually 90% or more of us will get it. This year, next year, or 5 years from now. Polio is a very different it does not mutate and it didn't originate in Bats. We have opened pandora's box messing with animal viruses. How could this ever help humans ? Only for a bio weapon or cause world economic collapse. Always look to who gains/profits from this. The old saying "Follow the Money" is as true today as it ever was.
 
The news reports were saying the state was forcing the liquor stores that boarder the reservations to shut down. I haven't been to that part of the state since last year so I have no first hand knowledge of what is going on there. I wouldn't be surprised if Navajo Lake State Park stays shut down for a while. I was disappointed that Elephant Butte State Park remains closed but Caballo is open. Caballo and other lakes will be more crowded this weekend since Navajo and Elephant Butte are closed.

I shouldn't be surprised on how many people will give up their freedoms so government will take care of them. That is how dictators like Stalin and Hitler were able to gain so much power.
 
Cosmic_cowboy,

China's been trying to cover up something. Hopefully we will be able to figure out exactly what happened. There may be no witnesses or evidence left to prove anything though. I agree the easiest path is to follow the money.
 
BrianID said:
The news reports were saying the state was forcing the liquor stores that boarder the reservations to shut down. I haven't been to that part of the state since last year so I have no first hand knowledge of what is going on there. I wouldn't be surprised if Navajo Lake State Park stays shut down for a while. I was disappointed that Elephant Butte State Park remains closed but Caballo is open. Caballo and other lakes will be more crowded this weekend since Navajo and Elephant Butte are closed.

I shouldn't be surprised on how many people will give up their freedoms so government will take care of them. That is how dictators like Stalin and Hitler were able to gain so much power.
Click to expand...

Except park rangers and the state police do just what their boss tells them to do.

If grisham had half a brain, she'd know there isn't an issue in "allowing" Navajo Lake to open...
 
Looks like MLG is now locking down Gallup. The problem is many have been brain washed by MSNBC and CNN and believe people are going to die unless we all just stay in our homes and let the government take care of us. There is no doubt this virus is bad but the level of hysteria is unnecessary. This virus is going to spread and infect a high percentage of the US population regardless of what we do and there is no practical way to stop this from happening.

All of us need to be cautious and try to minimize the spread but we can't close down schools and business for a year or more when a vaccine is available. People that are more vulnerable to this virus should take extra precautions until there is a vaccine but most of us should be able to live mostly normal lives.
 
Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. New Mexicans have been more than patient with this whole debacle.

MLG tries to push the shutdown for NW NM thru May and into June, I wouldn't be surprised to see lawsuits filed in Fed court...
 
As a school teacher I’m worried as to what school is going to look like when we do open. Abbreviated schedules? Small class sizes? How are we going to manage smaller classes? I’m from a small town that is K-12 in the same building. Some classes have up to 25-30 kids. Some of our teachers are older with underlying health issues. Do they have have to risk getting sick or not get paid. There’s a lot we need to figure out before we just jump all in. What about the kids that have underlying health issues...??? Do the parents just take their chances and send them to school? I still have concerns about our kids and our safety.
 
But at the same time, you can't hold everyone back that are not as susceptible.

I would imagine provisions will be made to ensure as much as possible can be done to get back to where we need to be while protecting those who need it most.

The issue you describe is also the same scenario in multiple towns, in multiple counties, in multiple states.
 
nmarchr,

All good points and concerns. Fortunately we have learned a lot about this virus in the last couple months. We now know it isn't going to be near as bad as the media hyped it up to be back in March. We will know much more about this virus and how to deal with it by the beginning of July. It may make sense for some people with underlying health issues to avoid large crowds until there is a safe and effective vaccine. My niece has been dealing with a brain tumor for the last 8 years. She had to miss a lot of school, church and other public gatherings at times when she was immune comprised by chemo.

Life is about weighing the risks and benefits of decisions we make. Young healthy people are much more likely to die in a motor vehicle crash this year than COVID. It will be interesting to see when the numbers come out but my guess is that for the month of April, likely to be the peak death month for COVID in US, we will see that more than 10X as many people 30 years or younger died in motor vehicle crashes than COVID. If we really want to save lives then there are other things the government could do like restricting what everyone is allowed to eat. Many people die unnecessarily young due to poor dietary choices. Personal liberties and the economy should also be considered in our battle with COVID. Unfortunately many of the government decisions being made right now are heavily influenced by politics. That includes both republicans and democrats.
 
@nmarchr ... this is what the kids will look like when (if) they come back in the fall
FeralChild.jpg
 
roadrunner said:
Opens a road you don't want to go down...
Click to expand...

Democratics have already going down that road. The strategy is to slowly chip away our personal freedoms and there won’t be as much resistance. Hopefully voters remember how government is treating them right now when they go to the poles in November and 2022.
 

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