NM Wolves and the ESA

TerynItUp

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-17 AT 11:26AM (MST)[p]Reading Hank's comments about wolves on the rain tracker thread reminded me of something I wanted to share with you all that live in wolf country.

I was listening to the Meateater Podcast this weekend and Steve Rinella was chatting with John Oakleaf of the Fish and Wildlife Service, Vicente Ordonez who is the the FS liaison to the Mexican Wolf Project, and Karl Malcom of the Forest Service.

I was very surprised to hear some future plans that are in place for the Wolf Project. Originally, the Fish and Wildlife set a population objective goal at 100 wolves. Currently in the reintroduction zone, there is a population of Mexican Grey wolves that floats and hovers right around 110 wolves. Many folks assume that now that the population has reached and surpassed the goal of 100 wolves means that they could be de-listed from ESA protection. However, in this podcast, John Oakleaf states that is incorrect and that the 100 number was just a number that was thrown out as an interim goal and had nothing to do with de-listing or what they would consider a state of recovery.

John stated that a recovery population has yet to be officially defined but will likely be around 325 wolves. I doubt that NM residents are aware that there are plans for this population to increase by another 210 wolves. This will probably garner some negativity as most are not a fan on the project to begin with, but they do give insight into actual numbers of elk killed by wolves vs. total elk population and their reasoning for the numbers.

If you are interested in listening to the Podcast it can be found here:

http://www.themeateater.com/podcasts/ep-074-gray-wolves/

They discuss the population numbers around the 55:30 mark.

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
And when they reach 325, the libs will file lawsuits claiming that the number isn't accurate. When it reaches 425 they'll have another excuse to delay any delisting.

Carl
 
Very good podcast,just finished listening.
While I am a Aldo Leopoldy retired Park Ranger kind of guy I do understand the frustration in the system. I am a avid elk & deer hunter and do hate it when my personal interest is effected. No different than any one else.
I love how SR asks ?'s & the replies.
I see the typical openended replies or partial replies.The sort of acknowledge of a situation,then ignore it that gubberment does so well with a subject or direction change.Or say we don't have that info,when you know damn well they do.Like how many elk in NM,how many harvested by hunters,how many by wolves.
I do think they belong but we are not god.I do not like them personally,nor their kill style. But some control is needed.Changing the goal posts is a pisser that always happens.

Part of this leaves out NMG&F posistions,officially or off the record.Some small mentions of AZG&F.
NMG&F has not made an official change in stance since when? They kind of dropped out of the picture when the goalposts moved 2 yrs ago & the I-40 line & the 325 number came out.
325total in NM? AZ& NM? AZ,NM & MEXICO?
I am no biologist or get everywhere nor see wolves often. I do not know if every story a rancher,outfitter,hunter I know states is fact. But hearing of them thick in the El Malpais Narrrows now,the 16a stories from multiple sources,the ones about how it was in 15 last year,the sightings in the Rio Grande game reserves,the many stories from ranchers in the Plains of San Augustine & Magdelena & sightings north of Grants. I do know some honest,pissed off ranchers and I bet that was the FWS guy that had to meet up with one 4th gen rancher woman I know who was fuming the day before the meeting.lol Told her to put the pistol in the glove.
They are way out of the Blue Range. Way out of the Gila. Way out of the Apache/Sitgraves,& out of the south Cibola.
My land is for elk & other wildlife,mainly. I do see as many sides as I can & see the flaws in many folks posistions.Ranchers & hunters,city folks alike.
I'm an old F & do not really care much about anything besides being left alone & hunting elk & deer,alone.I just hope the herds don't get too hammered before I lay down here in elk heaven.
 
Love listening to Steve's podcast. I imagine we are in for the same irritations as Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming have had over the past decade regarding attempting to get wolves and grizzlies delisted.
 
Interesting thread, gentlemen. Similar concerns here in Oregon as the wolves continue to spread -- and especially that the libs and huggers will not allow sound science to govern management.
 
Exactly. Biology should determine what is listed and delisted rather than letting public opinion influence the decision.
 
I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second and ask an honest question to you all:

Assume the USFWS could prove to you that they used sound science based reasoning to determine that 210 additional wolves were needed for a healthy sustainable population, would you support the decision?

I am just trying to get at the heart of the issue and see if we as hunters think there truly is an issue with the science they are using or if we just flat out don't like wolves even if science says they fit.

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
The USFWS is currently using a wolf intro model from 1990.So no matter what they were to say , I would not believe a word of it as they do not have any source to back their stance.Again, using a 20+ year old model isn't effective or accurate.What New Mexico was in 1990 isnt the same as to the habitat of the wildlife. Also I will add that there has been many pups born and now bred in the wild of both AZ & NM, so again there isn't any solid data to prove an accurate wolf count, and those are from the words of the USFWS....
 
That is interesting Rio, thanks for the input. I am so ignorant when it comes to wolves in NM so I am finding the whole conversation and dialogue pretty fascinating.

My guess is that most hunters and ranchers could care less if the wolves disappeared from NM altogether. I am trying to form an opinion myself of whether or not there is a place for them here so hearing all angles is enlightening.

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
I have personal friends who make a living providing beef for this country, so I hear/know 1st hand the problems wolves cause.Coming from a ranching family out of northern NM I understand more than simple words.
Any person with a drivers license can drive the paved roads of southwest NM,and to see enclosed bus stops built for security from wolves and not the weather, I mean come on there IS something wrong right there.
Then you have a conversation with outdoorsman,outfitters, and you hear the damage to elk and deer herds.Then take a few hours and go drive the 16s,15,17,23, and wonder whats going on....Our animals can't have all just disappeared from summer grazing areas???? Or did they...A well respected guide on here was in 16A 2 weeks ago, extremely familiar in the 16s, and I had a talking conversation with him, and he said this is by far the worst he has ever seen it as for cow elk without yearling calves...Bears have always hammered elk, its no mystery, but now the elk are being targeted by multiple wolf packs! We read /hear to stories of Idaho, WY,MT elk herds getting thinned out to extreme measure, and I was one who said IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN HERE IN NM....Well guess what I was wrong, and its happening before my very eyes!
 
A couple thoughts/questions for you. Seriously just trying to understand this whole thing better and not wanting to come across as confrontational at all...

1. Do you think there is a healthy number of wolves you would support?
2. Is there a possibility that we have been experiencing a time of abundance with the deer and elk and the wolves have normalized populations?
3. I always have a hard time buying into a silver bullet for complex problems. I can 100% agree that the wolves have A impact but have a hard time believing it is solely a result of them. Have deer and elk tags increased in these units concurrently with the presence of wolves?
4. In the podcast, it was stated that the wolves kill 1200-1600 elk each year. Is that bogus?

Appreciate the help Rio!

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
I dont think Im the right guy to speak on this as I don't have proven data that would support my words.My words of wolf numbers are more of opinion, and thats what the Feds are living off of , thats why its bullcrap...I don't know how many elk wolves kill , its too hard to narrow down but what is simple to understand is the wolf packs that have proven to wipe out small cattle ranchers calf crop, and once the calves are thinned out , the packs press on, and thats where deer and elk herds are targeted.In NM bear and cougar were already apex predators, and at times coyotes will gather up and join to kill a deer or antelope...But they generally eat their prey/kill, wolves are proven to just kill.Add an additional X amount of wolves and boom , my words are no longer opinion but proof....TerynItIp, I appreciate you and your interest in getting facts before you make your own decision on wolves, I have been in between at times my self, though it would be awesome to hear wild wolves howl, but then the damage....I can no longer wait and hope to enjoy something at the cost of so much more....if that makes sense?
 
Sounds like you have experienced the same dilemma I am facing right now. I am trying to decide whether the benefit of their natural beauty and contribution to a diverse landscape is worth the price we pay for having them. Tough to say.

Bear in mind that I don't live in and have yet to hunt in wolf country so I am pretty far removed from the prices we must pay, but, I am leaning towards the side of thinking that the price we pay for having them here is better than driving them out of existence for eternity. The only reason I say that is because I think I would feel selfish if I was willing to drive an animal to extinction so that we could experience less heartache when searching for an elk. Who knows, if I lived down there in the 16's I might be whistling a different tune.

For now, I am going drink a cold one, ponder this a little more, then load the truck for some scouting in Northern NM and enjoy freedom from wolf problems. How's that for hypocrisy!?

Have a great weekend fellas.

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
So I was in 16D/A at the end of June and saw 4 wolves in 2 days. I saw approx. 200+ elk (all cows and calves) scattered throughout the Collins Park area the day we rolled in. I heard coyotes most the night then early in the morning there was a noticeably different howl. So we were all in agreement that it was a wolf. The next morning from camp we saw two wolves eating on something, so we went to take a closer look and as we approached a coyote came by us hauling ass (obviously running from something) behind the coyote a few hundred yards a wolf came leisurely walking down the dirt road without a care in the world. It looked right at me and walked by a camp with 4 other people in it within 150 yards and could give a #####. I don't have to say everyone was pissed/shocked/surprised and a lot of SSS was discussed. To make it worse the ELK were all disturbed and the area was quickly void of Elk. That evening I saw two spotted calves by themselves in the middle of a park without a cow with a mile. I personally have a huge problem with them and don't want any. I know there is an argument that they are natural and were there before us and all that other BS. Rattlesnakes were originally in my neighborhood but I'm not in any hurry to "reintroduce" them. They are going to decimate one of the best Elk herds in the country. they simply kill for sport and will also be a detriment to ranchers. I wouldn't have a problem if one ate a tree hugging hiker but since I cant control that I would just assume they weren't there.
That's my educated stance on it!!!
 
*Fight wolves as long as we can. Should have never been reintroduced, because they will eventually be out of control. Definitely we are losing the public opinion war. It is a shame that people that have never even spent a night in the woods are making policy on predators
 
i have seen firsthand the decimation the wolves did in wyoming in the region around yellowstone, having hunted there several times. i have also hunted units 16c,16d,15, in new mexico. i have a unit 15 tag for my son this year. the wolves are gonna be bad news for new mexico. and the pitiful part is the sportsmen who fund all the conservation efforts through tax dollars on spotting goods and license sales etc, have no say at all. its sad and i say that because my boys are just now old enough to really hunt. fortunately, i have the resources to hunt other states like colorado, utah etc. but some are not so lucky and some of my best memories as a elk hunter came from new mexico. so I'm more than a little pissed. thats my two cents worth.
 
This is my issue that I see with this specific wolf population. These are not natural wolves that had survived and then were saved from the brink of extirpation; they're wolves that were brought from another area and were bred in captivity which changes their DNA. If it was the natural population, which could have had any number of differences compared to their new population, I would be more comfortable with keeping them in check and keeping a population out there. However, I believe they should be managed to keep them inside the wilderness boundary to the best we can, that way most ranchers are saved as far as cattle and they still get to exist. I'm a wildlife major right now and I have had many heated debates with pro-wolf advocates in my classes, but the thing is the majority of them have never been out there in their country. They haven't seen the destructive capacity of wolves. They've never looked down and seen a pawprint in an area that has been void of wolves for 60 years and felt that feeling. We as humans have a natural fear of animals which are capable of hurting us or our resources. If these people were put out there and given the chance to live in those areas I'm sure it would skew many of their opinions. The problem with wolves is they're a pack animal, if they were all solitary animals that had limited contact with each other they would just be larger coyotes; however, since they are pack animals they are much bolder and are willing to try and take down much larger prey like elk or even humans if needed. They're not thinking about that cattle farmer who loses $900-1,500 every time a head gets killed. They look out more for the animals than they will for people. I just wish that people were required to go out into the woods at least once to learn how it is and see what happens.
 
Also another thing I've seen is most of these people are the people that don't believe in hunting, but are also not content with eating meat from a regular old slaughterhouse. There has to be one or the other, if we continue to lose Elk, we as hunters will have to start relying on slaughterhouses and other animals. The main reason I hunt is to know where my meat was before it hit my plate. It's completely organic and completely free range, but since it was a wild animal, to these people it doesn't count because it was killed with a fairer chance than that cow who spends its whole life in a pen and then is filed in a single file line to the chopping block. If these people claim to be animal activists they should be just as adamant about the southwestern willow flycatcher, or the cattle market, or the white sands pupfish. We have animals that are much, much more endangered than the Mexican Gray Wolf, but no one cares about them because they're not a big, iconic species that is used as a posterchild. Ask any of these activists what they know about a Southwestern Willow Flycatcher and I guarantee that 95% of them do not even know what it is. The only reason Grizzlies and Wolves are so adamantly acted on is because they're such iconic and large species. Imagine how many people would show up to try and lobby for beavers if they were going extinct. They're more important to riparian areas than wolves and grizzlies are to their habitats.
 
I find this topic interesting as well.

I don't feel like the Mexican Gray Wolf is necessarily as far off genetically from its native habitat as what has been reintroduced up north.

However, I think the idea that the wolf as an apex predator can bring balance to an ecosystem is blown way out of proportion.

There are too many factors involved when you throw in hunting and ranching into the equation.

I feel there is more emotion than science being used...

And lastly, I think too much tax payer money is being put into these wolf programs. Some will argue that money is put into reintroduction of game species, but money is made off of game species via license sales, auction, guiding, etc. A group of birdwatchers trying to spot a wolf will not spend that kind of money.
 
I can guarantee you I saw a wolf in northern NM so be careful out there as well. Had multiple encounters with that particular animal in consecutive days. I think he was coming in because I had a hound with me in heat and barking. This was behind Hopewell lake! We can't save every species and those that are doomed I'm sorry but I'm like others here thinking why "reintroduce" something. There was still some around here and there before they bred and released more so in my eyes they are only hurting the natural order of what was in place before. Also, being a guy that runs hounds, I don't want to be in the position of worrying about wolves killing my dogs like has happened to so many in other states. Enough rant for me!

Ryan
 
This. I saw on a lone wolf in the Bandelier immediately after the Los Conchas fire in 2011. They're here already.
 
I do see one fundamental mistake in what many biologists and conservationists are doing nowadays. They keep saying "recovered populations" or "native ranges" in reference to what existed pre-European contact as if that is the goal. When doing this, they completely ignore that there should also be a place for us humans as well. To think that we should strive for populations and ranges that were present before the colonization of North America seems to place animals above humans, I strongly disagree with that notion.

I think there has to be some sort of balance between the idea that wolves do not belong at all and the idea that us as humans need to make any sacrifice necessary and deal with the consequences of wolves. I think we should strive to keep a population of wolves (no clue how many) but we should not have to allow the wolves to real havoc and expand as they see fit.

I thought that the USFWS reimbursed ranchers for market value of any cattle lost to wolves? For the cases that are impossible to prove such as when a cow or calf goes missing, there is an annual amount that gets paid to all ranchers living in wolf country to offset the losses that are not easily linked to a wolf. Is that program insufficient? Curious to hear from some ranchers who receive these payments from the USFWS.

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
Terynitup, ranchers may be reimbursed, but guess who pays that? Us taxpayers. Us sportsman whose money from licenses and goods are being used for projects that we do not agree with. I think when it comes to this type of project, if you're not finding it in some way, or part of it, you should have no say. It isnt just hunters complaining about less animals, its the fact entire areas are being wiped out. There is no way for them to accurately say there were "this many" wolves before us. Its a guesstimate based on a model. Most biologists will say that the herd in Arizona and New Mexico was only around 100 wolves. Well, just in NM, pro wolf USWFS says there are 120 or so. I'd say, based on their pro wolf estimate, there's quite a bit more. I've seen them in every 16 unit I've been in, as well as western 17. They are not afraid of humans. Most i have seen have been fairly close and could care less that i am there. That is what scares me, as I have children that camp with me. They are always watched, of course, but still an eerie feeling knowing that they attack adolescent animals mostly.


*We are all in the same boat, just
wishing to be hunting right now!*
 
I hear you, tough deal no matter which way you slice it.

It was pretty interesting in the podcast that Rinella did to hear that even the cattle ranchers are divided on the issue. The USFWS guy said that some of the ranchers are of the mindset that the elk do more damage to their herds by competition than the wolves do. He said that these ranchers like the idea of wolves if it will help keep the elk in check.

All I know is that no matter what happens, there will be disagreement and division. Lastly, we need to continue helping NMDGF in any way we can so we increase our chances of healthy elk herds in our state. Help control what we can I guess right?

Thanks fellas, learned a lot from this post.

Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-08-17 AT 08:49AM (MST)[p]Just my experience , but I am yet to hear or read of a single rancher in NM or any other state for that matter ever say they would prefer wolves as they keep the elk in check over cattle grazing! I listened to the podcast too , and I call more BS, because names of "said" ranchers is never mentioned.If Im making my living raising beef and my stance is I don't mind wolves , I could care less what any other rancher or person thought , its my lively hood and family well being at stake.....So then why are these ranchers names never mentioned?
 
Bringing this back to top as was out scouting and noticed the same as many others saw a herd of 70-80 elk and not one calf from this year? Herd had plenty of last years crop tons of 1.5 yr olds and spikes. So my question is this is it really the wolves? I saw several deer and all of them had fawns, not to mention all the baby Beef cattle running around whihc would be an easier target if you ask me?

Something doesn't add up to what we are seeing last years crop of babies was great based on what i saw but nada this year deer fawns are surviving baby untagged cows are making it but not the elk ?

Im thinking or wondering if there is a disease maybe ?Anyone have any insight ? I know the wolves are a problem but every calf from this year crop but last years crop looked great ? Rio do you have any secondary thoughts? it just doesnt make sens that the folks on here combined to see 500 elk with zero calfs yet i saw deer fawns a plenty ..
 
quite often this time of year the cows and calves are off by themselves, or with a couple other cow/calfs. I don't think. they really herd up till they are a bit older.
 

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