Non resident in wilderness

Deepcolor

Active Member
Messages
795
I am sure the answer is on the Wyoming Game and Fish web page but this is way easier. I am not here to argue the law that is in place, simply wanting to understand what the requirements are.

What documents are needed for a nonresident to hunt with a resident in the wilderness areas? Is it any resident or does it have to be a close relative?
 
Any Resident, but the resident will have to get the free guide license. Can get the guide license from local warden or regional office
 
>Is it a one to one
>or can the resident take
>multiple hunters?


Two non resident per 1 resident. Must stay together.
 
The resident can get the free guide lic. tag at the game and fish. takes 2 minutes. Only the resident has to be present to do this. They will ask the resident for name/address/years of residents and then ask the name of the non-resident and tag that they have. its very painless.

I always suggest have the resident call the office before and ask if they should bring any documentation .
 
Its 2 per resident...but this law needs to be revisited. I think more along the lines of 4-5 per resident is more reasonable.

Really, as a resident I should be able to take as many NR's into a wilderness area as I want.
 
I disagree. If they let anyone take as.many people as they want they should do away with it all together. The law is to protect people that dont know anything about the wyoming wilderness. One guy is not going to be able to protect 5 elmer fuds from a grizzly bear
 
Even a professional guide in wyoming can only take 2 hunters at one time the law on numbers has good reasoning
 
>I disagree. If they let anyone
>take as.many people as they
>want they should do away
>with it all together. The
>law is to protect people
>that dont know anything about
>the wyoming wilderness. One guy
>is not going to be
>able to protect 5 elmer
>fuds from a grizzly bear
>



But remember 5 elmer fuds can fish/hike/camp all they want in the wilderness and that's without a resident
 
>I disagree. If they let anyone
>take as.many people as they
>want they should do away
>with it all together. The
>law is to protect people
>that dont know anything about
>the wyoming wilderness. One guy
>is not going to be
>able to protect 5 elmer
>fuds from a grizzly bear
>

That's honestly what you believe?

Its outfitter welfare, pure and simple.
 
>Even a professional guide in wyoming
>can only take 2 hunters
>at one time the law
>on numbers has good reasoning
>


Not true.
 
"If you are planning to hunt any State or Federally designated Wilderness area within Wyoming you will need a licensed Guide, or Resident Guide with you in those areas. State Law requires that at least one (1) licensed Guide or Resident Guide accompany each two (2) nonresident hunters" better brush up on your regulations there jm
 
>"If you are planning to hunt
>any State or Federally designated
>Wilderness area within Wyoming you
>will need a licensed Guide,
>or Resident Guide with you
>in those areas. State Law
>requires that at least one
>(1) licensed Guide or Resident
>Guide accompany each two (2)
>nonresident hunters" better brush up
>on your regulations there jm
>

This is your comment: ">Even a professional guide in wyoming
>can only take 2 hunters
>at one time the law
>on numbers has good reasoning"

And that is not true.
 
>Its 2 per resident...but this law
>needs to be revisited. I
>think more along the lines
>of 4-5 per resident is
>more reasonable.
>
>Really, as a resident I should
>be able to take as
>many NR's into a wilderness
>area as I want.


Buzz- I found something I totally agree with you on!!
 
>I disagree. If they let anyone
>take as.many people as they
>want they should do away
>with it all together. The
>law is to protect people
>that dont know anything about
>the wyoming wilderness. One guy
>is not going to be
>able to protect 5 elmer
>fuds from a grizzly bear
>

Bookhead-why do you feel we need protection from a grizzly bear? Many of us have hunted and hiked all over grizzly infested country. Every resident in Montana, every resident in Alaska, every resident in Idaho, and even some residents in non grizzly states that have drawn or hunted non-wilderness areas outside and around Cody, Yellowstone park area. For that mater any non-resident that hunts Idaho, Montana, Alaska moose/caribou has lived in the woods with grizzly bears without a body guard thank you very much. Your comment needs some re-thinking there pal!

And trust me, that law isn't about safety it's about control and the Wy Outfitters association.
 
>I disagree. If they let anyone
>take as.many people as they
>want they should do away
>with it all together. The
>law is to protect people
>that dont know anything about
>the wyoming wilderness. One guy
>is not going to be
>able to protect 5 elmer
>fuds from a grizzly bear
>


BS!!!!The law is nothing but welfare and government cheese for outfitters.
 
>>I disagree. If they let anyone
>>take as.many people as they
>>want they should do away
>>with it all together. The
>>law is to protect people
>>that dont know anything about
>>the wyoming wilderness. One guy
>>is not going to be
>>able to protect 5 elmer
>>fuds from a grizzly bear
>>
>
>
>BS!!!!The law is nothing but welfare
>and government cheese for outfitters.
>

YEP, that's why I said earlier a non-resident can fish,hike,ride horses,camp and do anything but hunt in the wilderness.
 
I'm sure Wyoming hunters would never hunt Montana wilderness just on principle

just a foot or two over the line puts you in grave danger, we must protect you all

I hunted the unlimited units in Montana for years, full of grizzlies, seemed to have survived just fine
 
>I disagree. If they let anyone
>take as.many people as they
>want they should do away
>with it all together. The
>law is to protect people
>that dont know anything about
>the wyoming wilderness. One guy
>is not going to be
>able to protect 5 elmer
>fuds from a grizzly bear
>
Thats a comical explanation. Please tell me you weren't serious!
 
I'm a wyo resident and I agree the wilderness/non-res law should not be legal and needs to be changed. It seems unconstitutional to hold hunters from hunting public land. If anyone disagrees, please state your reason.

Give non-res wilderness access and hold them to 10% tag allocation statewide, except for leftovers tags. The dept. can get their money from out of staters that will quickly jump on leftovers at a premium.
 
>I'm a wyo resident and I
>agree the wilderness/non-res law should
>not be legal and needs
>to be changed. It seems
>unconstitutional to hold hunters from
>hunting public land. If anyone
>disagrees, please state your reason.
>
>
>Give non-res wilderness access and hold
>them to 10% tag allocation
>statewide, except for leftovers tags.
>The dept. can get their
>money from out of staters
>that will quickly jump on
>leftovers at a premium.


Completely agree. It's public land and non-residents are able to hunt wilderness in all other states without a guide including Montana and Idaho. This law appears to be in place purely catering to the outfitters.
 
Anyone should be able to hunt wilderness, but Wyoming could put a stipulation by species, like Alaska, that require the use of a guide!

If I (a non-resisdent) am going to hunt wilderness in Wyoming with a resident friend, am I allowed to scout by myself? What if the season is open? Can I pack my rifle if by myself, just for grizz protection?
 
Book head,

Please Explain yourself. Are you comparing Wyoming to Alaska, rather than Idaho or Montana in regards to size and amount of wilderness and species?

Do you support that non res are restricted to non wilderness only I wyoming ? Please explain your reason or justification? Thanks.
 
>If I (a non-resisdent) am going
>to hunt wilderness in Wyoming
>with a resident friend, am
>I allowed to scout by
>myself?

Yes


What if the season
>is open?

Are you hunting or scouting? Scouting yes.

Can I pack
>my rifle if by myself,
>just for grizz protection?

You can pack any legal firearm in the wilderness when you are by yourself. Same for National Park.
 
>
> Can I pack
>>my rifle if by myself,
>>just for grizz protection?
>
>You can pack any legal firearm
>in the wilderness when you
>are by yourself. Same for
>National Park.

So then I can only get a ticket if I shoot something? I feel like if I have a valid license, season is in, I have a rifle and just scouting that I will be ticketed for hunting.
 
>
>>
>> Can I pack
>>>my rifle if by myself,
>>>just for grizz protection?
>>
>>You can pack any legal firearm
>>in the wilderness when you
>>are by yourself. Same for
>>National Park.
>
>So then I can only get
>a ticket if I shoot
>something? I feel like if
>I have a valid license,
>season is in, I have
>a rifle and just scouting
>that I will be ticketed
>for hunting.

(vii) "Take" means hunt, pursue, catch, capture, shoot, fish, seine, trap, kill, or possess, or attempt to hunt, pursue, catch, capture, shoot, fish, seine, trap, kill, or possess;

(a) No nonresident shall hunt big or trophy game animals on any designated wilderness area, as defined by federal or state law, in this state unless accompanied by a licensed professional guide or a resident guide.  There shall be at least one (1) licensed professional guide or resident guide accompanying each two (2) nonresident hunters.  The commission may also specify other areas of the state, or specific big or trophy game species, for which a licensed professional or resident guide is required for nonresidents, for purposes of proper game management, protection of hunter welfare and safety, or better enforcement of game and fish laws.  The commission may allow licensed guides to accompany more than two (2) hunters but no more than six (6) hunters in specific areas.

I guess it's up to them to prove if you were hunting or not.
 
I think I would have to leave the rifle in the truck and pack bear spray or I would be ticketed for hunting.
 
This comes up often however does anyone know what the fine is if a NR hunts in the wilderness w/o a guide? $6000 guide and a $1000 elk tag, to SOME a fine to hunt our public land can just be added to the cost of the hunt.
 
>This comes up often however does
>anyone know what the fine
>is if a NR hunts
>in the wilderness w/o a
>guide? $6000 guide and
>a $1000 elk tag, to
>SOME a fine to hunt
>our public land can just
>be added to the cost
>of the hunt.

Just an fyi, I am definitely not planning on shooting without my resident friend/guide with me, just wanted to know if I was going to get a ticket if I was toting a rifle around by myself in a wilderness with a valid tag for an open season. I am curious to know what the fine is though as that may dictate if I carry my rifle or not - definitely won't be shooting anything except for those coyotes :)
 
While we are discussing rules, can my bullet pass through the wilderness air if I and my target are both outside the wilderness or does the wilderness/outfitters/state of Wyoming own the airspace up to 300 feet? This could definitely come up on some ridges where the wilderness boundary is the top of the ridge.
 
Yes what is the fine amount and has anyone ever been issued a citation for this?

I've looked everywhere and can't find what the fine is.
 
I'd assume if you shot something in the wilderness without having a resident with you they'd probably confiscate the animal but I'm not sure? I think it's a total BS regulation and is simply in place to benefit outfitters.
 
>I'd assume if you shot something
>in the wilderness without having
>a resident with you they'd
>probably confiscate the animal but
>I'm not sure? I
>think it's a total BS
>regulation and is simply in
>place to benefit outfitters.


To benefit the outfitter and proposed by the outfitter.
 
In Wyoming It is prima facie evidence of a violation if a person possesses any weapon in an area that may be inhabited by wildlife in a designated wilderness area while having in his possession and control any device for taking wildlife during any prescribed hunting season. In other words, if you pack a gun in a wilderness area you better be accompanied by a guide or resident guide during any hunting season or you will be found guilty. A BS law for sure, but nobody in Wyoming has a vested interest to get the law changed and many benefit directly by it. Though the wolves have decimated many of these back country wilderness areas and they aren’t all they are all cracked up to be. Many of the best elk in Wyoming are killed within 5 miles of agricultural areas.
 
Yes it is legal to hike, camp, fish, hunt grouse but the game warden will prima facie your arse and you won’t like how it feels much If he finds out you have a big game license for the Wilderness area, and have any weapon.
 
Couldn't you scout it with a rifle, just don't take your big game tag with you and take your small game license?

Prior to the season, yes. During it would be considered a Prima facie evidence against you as you have a weapon in hand during a big game season. Game Wardens do patrol the backcountry quite often. The wardens from Jackson, Cody and Pinedale all have multiple horses and you see them patrolling regularly for this.
 
I've seen exactly one biologist on horseback in 20 years here while hunting, no wardens on horseback.

No doubt they patrol, but lots of other things keep them busy during hunting season.
 
I've seen exactly one biologist on horseback in 20 years here while hunting, no wardens on horseback. No doubt they patrol, but lots of other things keep them busy during hunting season.
I've seen exactly one biologist on horseback in 20 years here while hunting, no wardens on horseback. No doubt they patrol, but lots of other things keep them busy during hunting season.
I've seen exactly one biologist on horseback in 20 years here while hunting, no wardens on horseback. No doubt they patrol, but lots of other things keep them busy during hunting season.

Many Game Wardens spend over 100+ days in the field on horseback. In Jackson they have a cabin they occupy all season long patrolling. Cody and Pinedale wardens spend extensive time on horseback and the Game and Fish trains their Wardens on horsemanship skills.
 
^+1 I usually run into the local wardens at least once a year in those areas that border or include wilderness here in Sublette County. Couple areas up here where they love to sit up on a ridge where then can see Area/wilderness boundaries and glass hunter(s) activity.
 
Many Game Wardens spend over 100+ days in the field on horseback. In Jackson they have a cabin they occupy all season long patrolling. Cody and Pinedale wardens spend extensive time on horseback and the Game and Fish trains their Wardens on horsemanship skills.

Rather than google for information like you did flyer, I called a warden I know who has horses and resided in Jackson for part of his career. He laughed when I mentioned 100 days horseback! He explained, given his other duties, there would be no way he could see more than 50 days horseback even in extreme circumstances and usually didn't ride that many. Also, if you rode with a pack animal in tow, each day was considered two horseback days. Many wardens, he explained, don't even like riding horseback. He also mentioned cruising the wilderness looking for unguided nonresidents never crossed his mind.

He also explained writing tickets on prima facia evidence better be backed up by something factual or circumstantial or it wouldn't hold up in court. And like anywhere else, they mostly stick to the trails while horseback, primary riding through areas where hunters traditionally camp. You are more likely to see a warden on horseback during the summer, checking fisherman, than during the fall checking hunters.

I have never personally never run into a game warden horseback on any backcountry trip, and my dad and I went on many pack trips hunting western Wyoming for deer, elk and moose.

By the way, I recognized several people in that video and guarantee they haven't been on a horse since.
 
In Wyoming It is prima facie evidence of a violation if a person possesses any weapon in an area that may be inhabited by wildlife in a designated wilderness area while having in his possession and control any device for taking wildlife during any prescribed hunting season. In other words, if you pack a gun in a wilderness area you better be accompanied by a guide or resident guide during any hunting season or you will be found guilty. A BS law for sure, but nobody in Wyoming has a vested interest to get the law changed and many benefit directly by it. Though the wolves have decimated many of these back country wilderness areas and they aren’t all they are all cracked up to be. Many of the best elk in Wyoming are killed within 5 miles of agricultural areas.

why does this gibberish bring back memories of a corner crossing thread...
 
jm77 gets it. My experience is about the same. In this area, I have run into Warden Queen on horseback (including this year). I have never seen Warden "Birkenstock Boy" (Travis?) on horseback ever. I have only run into one biologist in the wilderness on horseback. That was Doug McWhirter, and he has moved to another part of Wyoming.

By the way, prima facie is a legal term that means "a fact PRESUMED to be true unless disproved by some evidence to the contrary". I would think that arming yourself in Wyoming in the wilderness to engage in self preservation (lions, wolves, criminals, bears and now treasure hunters) would be enough to rebut the presumption.

I think this subject has been beat to death. just sayin...mh
 
“why does this gibberish bring back memories”. Probably because it is well established Law and court challenged. If you want to try and recommend Illegal gibberish and Nonsense like it is ok to pack a gun during a hunting season in Wilderness be my guest but those Deluded enough to follow such advice should be ready to accept the Warden enforced consequences. https://law.justia.com/cases/wyoming/supreme-court/1986/121527.html
 
“why does this gibberish bring back memories”. Probably because it is well established Law and court challenged. If you want to try and recommend Illegal gibberish and Nonsense like it is ok to pack a gun during a hunting season in Wilderness be my guest but those Deluded enough to follow such advice should be ready to accept the Warden enforced consequences. https://law.justia.com/cases/wyoming/supreme-court/1986/121527.html

BFD...the guy admitted to hunting elk in the wilderness. That doesn't prove anything in regard to prima facie...

Sorry Mr. Game Warden, I have a valid bird license and I only hunt dusky blue grouse in the wilderness. My preferred weapon of choice is a 300 Winchester, which is legal round to hunt blue grouse with. Now, have yourself a nice day!
 
BFD...the guy admitted to hunting elk in the wilderness. That doesn't prove anything in regard to prima facie...

Sorry Mr. Game Warden, I have a valid bird license and I only hunt dusky blue grouse in the wilderness. My preferred weapon of choice is a 300 Winchester, which is legal round to hunt blue grouse with. Now, have yourself a nice day!

Game warden to hunter, nice try Mr. Hunter I also seen you glassing that herd of elk up here in the wilderness area, calling out with both that cow call and bugle tube and see you have a large meat saw and possess an elk license for this area. Now you can try and tell that gibberish to the Circuit Judge. Here is your citation. Have a nice day. LMAO.
 
Game wardens hate it when people try to pull one over on them. If they think your lying to them they are going to find something to site you for. They also do not want to take a BS charge before a judge. The judges know the officers and which ones are more likely the waste their time. No game warden wants to have a judge annoyed with them.
 
Maybe some people just look guilty.
On my last interaction with a Wyoming Warden, he asked for my license and my response was, "it's in my kill kit, in my pack, under that lashed down bowcase, so I'd rather not dig it out." He asked if it and my other docs were signed and after my response, I started in on corner crossing. His reply to that was "keep a gps track and if the LO shows up, record the conversation, hunter harassment is illegal in Wyoming"
 
That’s great advice!!!
As Wyoming hunting gets even more crowded and tougher to hunt.more guys are gonna do whatever it takes.
Wyoming is going to be forced to put
residents into a draw.
Its only a matter of time.
They are gonna be forced to open the wilderness to everyone.I don’t know what the fine is but it eventually will be worth taking the chance of getting fined.
A ticket is nothing if you get to keep the animal.
Then no more Outfitter Welfare.
 
high fast flyer,

So some of us speak gibberish. You cite a case from 34 years ago. The fine was $ 100. The justices from that case are all retired from the bench and all new judges now sit on the court. The case was not appealed to a federal court despite the fact that the defenses raised were primarily federal in nature. I do think any non-resident who hunts in the wilderness does so at his or her own peril. Will you receive a citation from the warden? Who knows? Will they confiscate a harvested animal in the wilderness? Again, who knows?

In an earlier post, I mentioned that we have many laws at the local, state and federal level that are never enforced. Are you aware of the current enforcement status concerning the wearing of hunter orange while hunting in Wyoming. The hunter orange law has some holes in it definitionally. You might be surprised what the wardens are being told to do on the subject when confronted with a violation.

just sayin...mh (class of 1980 University of Idaho School of Law)
 
Game warden to hunter, nice try Mr. Hunter I also seen you glassing that herd of elk up here in the wilderness area, calling out with both that cow call and bugle tube and see you have a large meat saw and possess an elk license for this area. Now you can try and tell that gibberish to the Circuit Judge. Here is your citation. Have a nice day. LMAO.

Oh, so now if you even look at elk in Wilderness area and you're a non resident its prima facie...under what Statute or Regulation is the warden going to cite you for regarding glassing elk?

Probably right next to the regulation or statute regarding the carrying of binoculars, possession of elk calls, and meat saws being illegal.

Good grief...
 
“why does this gibberish bring back memories”. Probably because it is well established Law and court challenged. If you want to try and recommend Illegal gibberish and Nonsense like it is ok to pack a gun during a hunting season in Wilderness be my guest but those Deluded enough to follow such advice should be ready to accept the Warden enforced consequences. https://law.justia.com/cases/wyoming/supreme-court/1986/121527.html
After reading that in entirety. It sounds like the state of Wyoming's primary defense is that the average non-resident would be unsafe in a wilderness setting while hunting and that it would be hard for the state to regulate non-residents hunting in a wilderness setting.

What if you were a Wyoming hunting guide who hunted the wilderness, but then became a non-resident to Wyoming? It seems like it might be difficult to prosecute that person with the same reasons outlined in the 1984 case.

I think all of the major reasons for not allowing non-residents in the Wilderness could be overcome by a non-resident by taking a test (knowing all of the game laws), showing Wilderness competency, showing knowledge of the Wilderness you are entering....heck, the non-resident could even pay for the price to take such a test.

My question is "outfitter welfare" a valid reason? If yes, then non-residents don't really have a chance moving forward. If no, then it seems like one could fight everything else and show that non-residents are capable in a wilderness setting. "Outfitter welfare" is never mentioned in this case.
 
Knowing your hunting illegally is just totally bad ethics. That is what gives tree huggers more power against us hunters.
I do agree it is a stupid law.
Can we move on to another subject please!!
 
A nonresident who is either a licensed outfitter or guide, can take NR hunters in the wilderness.

Whatever the reason, and we all know what it is, the state can regulate hunting as it sees fit, including discriminating against NRs. End of story...

The irony is that the same NR guide who can take other NR hunters hunting in the wilderness can not hunt the same wilderness on his own tag by him/herself? Or is this incorrect? I’m honestly not sure...
 
The irony is that the same NR guide who can take other NR hunters hunting in the wilderness can not hunt the same wilderness on his own tag by him/herself? Or is this incorrect? I’m honestly not sure...
I think that is correct unless he pays the outfitter. Can he make a deal and outfit himself for a cheap fee though?
 
high fast flyer,

So some of us speak gibberish. You cite a case from 34 years ago. The fine was $ 100. The justices from that case are all retired from the bench and all new judges now sit on the court. The case was not appealed to a federal court despite the fact that the defenses raised were primarily federal in nature. I do think any non-resident who hunts in the wilderness does so at his or her own peril. Will you receive a citation from the warden? Who knows? Will they confiscate a harvested animal in the wilderness? Again, who knows?

In an earlier post, I mentioned that we have many laws at the local, state and federal level that are never enforced. Are you aware of the current enforcement status concerning the wearing of hunter orange while hunting in Wyoming. The hunter orange law has some holes in it definitionally. You might be surprised what the wardens are being told to do on the subject when confronted with a violation.

just sayin...mh (class of 1980 University of Idaho School of Law)
If you are man enough to try these are the current penalties depending upon the nature of the offense.


  • Low Misdemeanor: A fine of up to $1,000, imprisonment for up to six months, revocation of your hunting license for the remainder of the current year, and suspension of your right to have a hunting license for up to three years
  • High Misdemeanor: A fine of up to $10,000, imprisonment for up to one year, revocation of your hunting license for the remainder of the current year, and suspension of your right to have a hunting license for up to six years
 
highfastflyer,
This statute is ripe for review and you know it. I am a long time Wyoming resident and like the fact that nonresidents are kept out of the wilderness. My reasons are mostly selfish. I hunt mule deer and some elk in the NW Wyoming wilderness.

I don't believe that all nonresidents are ready for sharing the woods with grizzly bears. I have hiked and hunter around grizzly bears for many, many years. I have lost elk quarters to aggressive bears. I have also been bluff charged way too many times while hiking and hunting in and out of the wilderness areas. Does anyone think that the grizzly bears are confined only to areas designated wilderness? A few years ago, I was hunting with a nonresident in the wilderness (North Fork of the Shoshone) with the appropriate resident guide license. He was much younger than I am. He got ahead of me on the trail and sat down to glass a basin we were headed to. When I walked up to him a few minutes later, I noticed a sow grizzly with two cubs gnawing on a quartered out mule deer carcass 60 feet to his left. The sow was covered in blood and all bristled up. This hunter obviously wasn't paying attention. The look on his face, after I pointed out the bears to him, was priceless. In case you haven't got the memo, sows with cubs are the worst. We backed out, moved on, and later that day he took a decent muley buck.

I will ignore your challenge to my manhood. I do not understand why people on the internet forums make such statements. The penalties are like a lot of laws enacted by government. They are intended to frighten people away from behavior that the legislature has deemed a crime. Did you think that the stated penalty would be a $ 100 fine, 8 hours in jail, or an hour of community service. To try to enforce the heavy penalties you mentioned, would likely guarantee a challenge of any state conviction in the federal court system. That is certainly not what the G&F wants. If you have any knowledge of real law (that which you gain from practicing law) you would know that what I am stating is true.

If you choose to violate the law, you do so at your own peril. I stated that in my earlier post. Carry on. just sayin...mh
 
highfastflyer,
This statute is ripe for review and you know it. I am a long time Wyoming resident and like the fact that nonresidents are kept out of the wilderness. My reasons are mostly selfish. I hunt mule deer and some elk in the NW Wyoming wilderness.

I don't believe that all nonresidents are ready for sharing the woods with grizzly bears. I have hiked and hunter around grizzly bears for many, many years. I have lost elk quarters to aggressive bears. I have also been bluff charged way too many times while hiking and hunting in and out of the wilderness areas. Does anyone think that the grizzly bears are confined only to areas designated wilderness? A few years ago, I was hunting with a nonresident in the wilderness (North Fork of the Shoshone) with the appropriate resident guide license. He was much younger than I am. He got ahead of me on the trail and sat down to glass a basin we were headed to. When I walked up to him a few minutes later, I noticed a sow grizzly with two cubs gnawing on a quartered out mule deer carcass 60 feet to his left. The sow was covered in blood and all bristled up. This hunter obviously wasn't paying attention. The look on his face, after I pointed out the bears to him, was priceless. In case you haven't got the memo, sows with cubs are the worst. We backed out, moved on, and later that day he took a decent muley buck.

I will ignore your challenge to my manhood. I do not understand why people on the internet forums make such statements. The penalties are like a lot of laws enacted by government. They are intended to frighten people away from behavior that the legislature has deemed a crime. Did you think that the stated penalty would be a $ 100 fine, 8 hours in jail, or an hour of community service. To try to enforce the heavy penalties you mentioned, would likely guarantee a challenge of any state conviction in the federal court system. That is certainly not what the G&F wants. If you have any knowledge of real law (that which you gain from practicing law) you would know that what I am stating is true.

If you choose to violate the law, you do so at your own peril. I stated that in my earlier post. Carry on. just sayin...mh
By stating that not all nonresidents are ready to share the woods with grizzlies, imply that all residents are? Is a greater percentage of Wyoming residents prepared to share woods with grizzlies than nonresident hunters? Come on man! The simple comment should be that not all people, regardless of residency, are ready to share the woods with grizzlies. The law does not exist to keep nonresidents safe. It exists solely to help line an outfitters pocket.
 
Founder,

I do think that many Wyoming residents are not ready to be in the wilderness. The implication you made about my comments was your choice not mine. The greatest teacher of what to do and not what to do in the Wyoming wilderness comes from experience. You don't gain that experience from TV, a book, G&F lectures, pamphlets or a you tube video. It isn't gained overnight. You don't gain that knowledge from only hunting critters in Colorado, California, and Utah? This isn't Kansas. You may not get that experience hunting in the Greys. It is very dangerous hunting in those portions of Wyoming that are infested with grizzly bears. When nonresidents message me about the grizzly bears they all ask the same questions; Will the bears be out in November, do I really have to hang my meat up or where can I hunt where there are no bears? Yes, they can be out in November. I don't have a clue where you can hunt and avoid grizzly bears in NW Wyoming. That is a stupid question for this area. If you have to ask that question, you aren't ready.

Let me ask you a few questions because I believe you to be an experienced hunter; Have you ever been bluff charged by a grizzly bear? Have you ever had a grizzly bear come to a gun shot? Do you know that grizzly bear body language can often tell you about what is an aggressive posture and what is not? Have you ever had a cub grizzly bear run between you and a companion while on a trail? Have you ever checked your backtrail when hiking or hunting? You had better do this in grizzly country. Looking through your binos just isn't enough. Do you know how to store bear spray so it is still effective? Would you avoid a sow with cubs if it meant you might not be able to hunt the area you wanted? Do you believe that grizzly bears can't climb trees and therefore can get at your meat that you hung up? Are you willing to avoid certain areas that may be too overgrown for safe hunting in bear country? Are you willing to avoid areas with good hunting, where the bear population is out of control? I have a couple of areas where I won't hike or hunt. I don't have all the answers but I can tell you after many years hunting around these bears, you can't let your guard down ever. I have met many hunters, both resident and nonresident, who just don't understand that. The constant back and forth over bear spray or shooting a bear makes me laugh. Chances are that if a grizzly bear is intent on getting you, you will likely not have a chance to use either. That is also where the paying attention comes into the equation. Do I feel totally prepared to hike and hunt in grizzly bear country. Heck no. Do I think I more knowledgeable than many hunters? Yes. Could I still be mauled or killed? Yes

just sayin...mh
 
You make many good points, but I bet Founder would be better prepared than the majority of Wyoming residents coming out of Cheyenne, Casper, Gillette...probably even Cody and Jackson if we are counting.

If it is a Grizzly issue, shouldn't we be able to hunt Cloud Peak and the Wilderness areas in Medicene Bow?
 
nripepi,

I have only discussed NW Wyoming and the wilderness areas there. I also only spoke about grizzly bears that have infested some portions of Wyoming. As somewhat of a libertarian, if you want to camp, hike and hunt in grizzly country go for it whether you are a resident or not. I would just ask that you not sue the state or others if you get mauled, killed or can't be found. I would like to believe that the Founder knows his way around the backcountry. I don't know if he has ever spent much time in NW Wyoming chasing big mule deer. Having hunted mule deer in the Greys River and NW Wyoming, the two are very different.

Unfortunately, statutes, regulations and laws are usually all inclusive and general in nature. Exceptions would be nice but not a path usually chosen by commissions through regulation or the legislative branch through statutes. I remember a new law passed in Idaho many years ago which was silent on the burden of proof for a newly created cause of action. I argued my client's position in the case and won in front of the Idaho Supreme Court. The legislature could have done us a favor and stated what the burden of proof was for the action. They didn't think to do so or just didn't bother. That is what courts are for.

I could show you a few statutes in Wyoming that are poorly drafted which leave some questions unanswered. Also, every prosecutor has prosecutorial discretion in the counties where they serve. What is believed as a real threat or criminal behavior to one prosecutor, or even the judge, may be a simple nuisance and time robber to another. I remember a couple of cases in Idaho that I was involved in. A judge dismissed a citation for driving an ATV behind a closed gate on USFS land because the complaining officer and prosecutor could not cite what law had been violated. Another judge dismissed a citation for shooting ducks from a moving boat when the deceased bird was actually a coot. At the time, a coot was not defined as a duck in Idaho. As I stated in all my posts on the subject, hunt where you want but the consequence might be a citation or even worse your own maiming or death. Will anyone receive a citation, and if so, will that person spend the money and time to defend themselves?
Again, who knows. just sayin...mh
 
This law does nothing but crowd hunters into certain portions of a unit. Outfitter sponsored and supported.

I have been checked multiple times deep in the backcountry. It seems the GnF are more likely to check you in the backcountry during rifle elk season than deer (my experience). I was checked opening day last year about 9 miles from the trailhead. Great experience/warden.
 
Founder,

I do think that many Wyoming residents are not ready to be in the wilderness. The implication you made about my comments was your choice not mine. The greatest teacher of what to do and not what to do in the Wyoming wilderness comes from experience. You don't gain that experience from TV, a book, G&F lectures, pamphlets or a you tube video. It isn't gained overnight. You don't gain that knowledge from only hunting critters in Colorado, California, and Utah? This isn't Kansas. You may not get that experience hunting in the Greys. It is very dangerous hunting in those portions of Wyoming that are infested with grizzly bears. When nonresidents message me about the grizzly bears they all ask the same questions; Will the bears be out in November, do I really have to hang my meat up or where can I hunt where there are no bears? Yes, they can be out in November. I don't have a clue where you can hunt and avoid grizzly bears in NW Wyoming. That is a stupid question for this area. If you have to ask that question, you aren't ready.

Let me ask you a few questions because I believe you to be an experienced hunter; Have you ever been bluff charged by a grizzly bear? Have you ever had a grizzly bear come to a gun shot? Do you know that grizzly bear body language can often tell you about what is an aggressive posture and what is not? Have you ever had a cub grizzly bear run between you and a companion while on a trail? Have you ever checked your backtrail when hiking or hunting? You had better do this in grizzly country. Looking through your binos just isn't enough. Do you know how to store bear spray so it is still effective? Would you avoid a sow with cubs if it meant you might not be able to hunt the area you wanted? Do you believe that grizzly bears can't climb trees and therefore can get at your meat that you hung up? Are you willing to avoid certain areas that may be too overgrown for safe hunting in bear country? Are you willing to avoid areas with good hunting, where the bear population is out of control? I have a couple of areas where I won't hike or hunt. I don't have all the answers but I can tell you after many years hunting around these bears, you can't let your guard down ever. I have met many hunters, both resident and nonresident, who just don't understand that. The constant back and forth over bear spray or shooting a bear makes me laugh. Chances are that if a grizzly bear is intent on getting you, you will likely not have a chance to use either. That is also where the paying attention comes into the equation. Do I feel totally prepared to hike and hunt in grizzly bear country. Heck no. Do I think I more knowledgeable than many hunters? Yes. Could I still be mauled or killed? Yes

just sayin...mh
Okay, I guess when I want to enter the wilderness just anyone who’s a Wyoming resident is better prepared to take care of me than any nonresident.

To say that many people aren’t prepared is one thing, but to single out nonresident hunters is what’s silly. That has nothing to do with it and I think it’s funny when I hear that in any way, shape or form as the reason why the wilderness law should stand.

it’s a law to help Outfitters and absolutely not a law to protect nonresident hunters.
 
If you are man enough to try these are the current penalties depending upon the nature of the offense.


  • Low Misdemeanor: A fine of up to $1,000, imprisonment for up to six months, revocation of your hunting license for the remainder of the current year, and suspension of your right to have a hunting license for up to three years
  • High Misdemeanor: A fine of up to $10,000, imprisonment for up to one year, revocation of your hunting license for the remainder of the current year, and suspension of your right to have a hunting license for up to six years

23-2-417 Nonresident hunting without a guide in the wilderness $135.00


Yep, man up!!
 
Do I believe that it could be argued that the law has some rational basis for existing i.e. the protection of people unfamiliar or unprepared with what they may experience in the wilderness of NW Wyoming? Perhaps. Do I believe it is intended mostly to benefit a some outfitters? More than likely. Because I am a selfish guy and a resident, I have no problem with the law. Should a resident have more rights to hunt than a nonresident on federal land? Who knows. I do note that outfitters in the Greys and Hoback, in a mostly non-wilderness area, charge less for mule deer hunts than their counterparts in NW Wyoming that hunt mostly wilderness. It sure wouldn't be because of the trophy size of the mule deer being harvested in NW Wyoming.

Founder, perhaps you should violate the law and see what happens. Better yet, let the wardens policing the wilderness know you are coming next fall and see what happens. There are a lot of silly laws in every state. I would suggest your defense, if cited, should not be that the law is silly. I believe a basis for challenge would likely involve some federal issues. Just sayin...mh
 
Why would I violate the law?

I’m just not buying into the whole silliness that the law is to protect nonresident hunters.
 
So the fine is up to $135. Are there any additional laws broken and subsequent fines for harvesting an animal?

Similar to trespassing getting you a citation, but trespassing and killing an animal will get you additional citations.

I have no plans on violating the law.
 
MH makes it sound so dangerous that maybe they should ban all hunting in WY areas with grizzlies. May even have to extend it to all activities. No more hiking, camping or fishing by residents and non-residents.
 
About 2 months ago I contacted WY fish and game to get some details on the penalties and number of citations handed out over the last 20 years. Took a while for them to answer, but here's what I found out.

1. Section 23-2-417 of article 4 states that the fine is not to exceed $5,000.

2. From 2000-2018 there were a total of 138 nonresident wilderness violations. 64 citations and 74 warnings. Of the 64 citations, 60 paid the bond schedule amount. What that amount is I'm not sure but it's most likely not much since most paid it.

I decided it was not worth the risk with a 10 point draw hunt.
 
Well non residents cant get a ranching for wildlife tag in colorado ??? lets start another thread for two months about how its not fair and see if it changes anything
 
MH makes it sound so dangerous that maybe they should ban all hunting in WY areas with grizzlies. May even have to extend it to all activities. No more hiking, camping or fishing by residents and non-residents.

Its a pretty well known fact that I often don't agree with MH on things, and vice versa.

But, after having spent a considerable amount of time this past fall hunting around Cody for my sheep, what he says is pretty accurate.

I hunted most of the time with 2 friends, but I also spent some time solo as well.

Outside of the Alaska Peninsula, I've personally never seen more grizzly sign anywhere I've been. There are grizzly tracks in the mud, in the snow, on the ridges, on the sand bars, on the highway, on the 2 tracks, on the horse trails, in the draws...and you see a fair few as well.

I only saw 4 total in the time I hunted, but they were everywhere. When I was hunting solo, I had my rifle everywhere...go down to the creek to get water, had my rifle, go take a crap, rifle goes with, etc. etc.

Its no joke up there...at all and IMO, I don't think its a matter of if you're going to have a serious encounter with a bear, but just when and how bad.
 
Alaskan bears see or smell you and they are headed the other way. Wyo bears have no fear of people. They need to be hunted so they are educated
 
I really wish somebody would get the citation and challenge it in court so we can put an end to it.
 
Alaskan bears see or smell you and they are headed the other way. Wyo bears have no fear of people. They need to be hunted so they are educated
How do you educate a bear once you shoot and kill it?
 
About 2 months ago I contacted WY fish and game to get some details on the penalties and number of citations handed out over the last 20 years. Took a while for them to answer, but here's what I found out.

1. Section 23-2-417 of article 4 states that the fine is not to exceed $5,000.

2. From 2000-2018 there were a total of 138 nonresident wilderness violations. 64 citations and 74 warnings. Of the 64 citations, 60 paid the bond schedule amount. What that amount is I'm not sure but it's most likely not much since most paid it.

I decided it was not worth the risk with a 10 point draw hunt.
I think these numbers are certainly more accurate than those who think it is merely a $135 fine. https://law.justia.com/codes/wyoming/2011/title23/chapter2/section23-2-417/
 
highfastflyer, it sure sounds like you want to scare people away from the wilderness areas. Is that because you want to save their wallets or because you don't want the competition? ;)
 
Took all of two minutes.

WY Statutes Title 23; 23-2-401 Guides required; exceptions;

Bond Schedule;
30423-2-401(a)23-2-417Non-resident hunting without guide in wilderness$135.00
 

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