Now the Steel Industry Wants a Bailout

NeMont

Long Time Member
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Seems reasonable to give more bailout money to the steel industry. You can't build cars without steel so no sense bailing out the Auto industry and not the steel industry.

I wonder where it ends.



Steel industry hopes for big stimulus shot
The steel industry, having entered the recession in the best of health, is emerging as a leading indicator of what lies ahead. As steel production goes, and it is now in collapse, so will go the national economy.

By Louis Uchitelle

The New York Times



That maxim once applied to the Big Three car companies. Now they are losing ground in good times and bad, and steel has replaced autos as the industry to watch for an early sign that a severe recession is beginning to lift.

The industry itself is turning to government for orders that, until the collapse, came from manufacturers and builders.

Its executives are waiting anxiously for details of President-elect Obama's stimulus plan and adding their voices to pleas for a huge public investment program ? up to $1 trillion over two years ? that will lift demand for steel to build highways, bridges, power grids, schools, hospitals, water-treatment plants and rapid transit.

"What we are asking," said Daniel R. DiMicco, chairman and CEO of Nucor, a giant steelmaker with a Seattle plant, "is that our government deal with the worst economic slowdown in our lifetime through a recovery program that has in every provision a 'buy America' clause."

Economists in the Obama camp said the proposals to Congress will include significant infrastructure spending that draws on heavy industry.

New spending should provide an immediate jolt to the steel business, which has already gone through the painful makeover now demanded of the Big Three.

Mills were closed, companies were consolidated, hundreds of thousands lost their jobs and the survivors agreed to concessions. As a result, productivity shot up and so did profits, to record levels in the first nine months of this year.

But then the recession hit in force.

Steel goes into nearly everything made in America, and as construction and manufacturing wound down, so did steel output, plunging 50 percent since September.

The steel industry's collapse closely tracks the alarming late-autumn swoon in the national economy, as the housing bust and the credit crisis converted a mild downturn into "a severe one that has much further to run," says Nigel Gault, chief domestic economist at IHS Global Insight.

Through August, steel production was actually up slightly for the year. The decline came slowly at first, then with a rush in November and December.



By late December, output was down to 1.02 million tons a week from 2.1 million tons Aug. 30, the American Iron and Steel Institute reported. The price of a ton of steel is also down by half since summer.

"We are making our steel at four mills instead of six," said John Armstrong, a spokesman for U.S. Steel, explaining that two mills were recently idled and the four still operating are at less than full capacity.

"The third quarter was one of the best in U.S. Steel's history," Armstrong added. "And it has been a very precipitous drop from there."

The cutback has been particularly hard on workers at the big integrated mills like those at U.S. Steel and Arcelor Mittal USA, with their blast furnaces and coke ovens converting coal and iron ore into steel.

Nucor "minimills"

Operated at less than full capacity, these mills are less efficient than the equally large "minimills," like Nucor, whose electric arc furnaces can be operated efficiently at lower speeds.

So the plant closings have been mostly at the integrated mills, whose 50,000 workers ? roughly 40 percent of the nation's steelworkers ? are represented by the United Steelworkers of America. The union says that by early this year it expects 20,000 workers to be laid off.

Ten thousand already are. Kathleen Loepker, a millwright and mechanic, is among the most recent to join their ranks. She was laid off Dec. 19 from the U.S. Steel plant in Granite City, Ill., which shut down, putting more than 2,000 people out of work.

With nearly 30 years seniority, Loepker, 48, has worked through bankruptcies, union concessions and consolidations that saw her mill acquired by U.S. Steel in 2003.

Her income is tied more to incentive bonuses than in the past. On layoff, she is collecting $20 an hour, which is 80 percent of her base pay of $25.12 an hour.

That base pay, rather than rising significantly, is fattened by incentive bonuses tied to amounts of steel produced and to profits. It had been averaging an additional $7 an hour ? money now gone until the mill reopens.

"No one knows when that will happen," said Loepker. "The company tells us the end of March, but they don't know either. The uncertainty has everyone fearful."

Not since the 1980s has American steel production been as low as it is today. Those were the Rust Belt years when many steel companies were failing and imports of better-quality, lower-cost steel were rising.

Foreign producers no longer have an advantage over the refurbished American companies. Indeed, imports, which represent about 30 percent of all steel sales in the United States, also are hurting as customers disappear.

Lobbying Obama

The industry, in response, is lobbying the Obama transition team for infrastructure projects that would require big amounts of steel. Mass-transit systems are high on the list and so is bridge repair.

"We are sharing with the president-elect's transition team our thoughts in terms of the industry's policy priorities," said Nancy Gravatt, a spokeswoman for the American Iron and Steel Institute.

The Obama team has not revealed details of the president-elect's soon-to-be-announced recovery plan other than to indicate most of the package will probably go into infrastructure spending rather than tax breaks.

"If the president-elect really follows through, he'll fund a lot of mass-transit projects," said Wilbur L. Ross Jr., the Wall Street deal maker who put together the steel conglomerate known today as Arcelor Mittal USA.

"All the big cities have these projects ready to go."
 
Might as well let them shut down, they can be reopened when demand and prices warrant it unlike the auto industry which has to deal with public image and ever changing technology.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, either way our economy is screwed.
 
on the news this morning was a story saying that around 40% of the stimulus pkg will be for tax cuts, thats partly how we got into trouble in the first place, remember the famous quip about how we know whats best for our our money, not the government , yea thats fine up to a point. I listened to a interview given to a now deceased economist named John Kenneth Galbreath born in 1908 he saw the big picture and predicted very well our predicament, In my opinion its been a greedfest and a grand one but one way or the other its got to end and in the end its really quite simple, Incentive to work and produce,having the infastructure to live well and being efficient in the use of our natural resources, when those things click the capital will flow. Peaks and valleys, hopefully this is just a 6000 meter peak and a short bivy, not an 8000 meter near death experence like the great depression
 
HD,

I bet the congressmen and Senators from steel producing states can make the case that Steel is even more important then Cars to the overall economy. I will also predict not only does the steel industry gain some federal money but they are just one more in an ever growing list of industries with their hands out.



Piper,

Explain how tax cuts caused the Subprime lending mess in the housing industry, or how tax cuts lead to even one firm failing on Wall Street? It wasn't tax cuts that caused those things, it was the Fed allowing easy money to flow and it flowed to peole who weren't competent to deal with it. Wall Street thought they figured out a new way to print money by bundling and selling this debt as "mortgaged" back securities. None of this had to do with tax cuts, it all had to do with easy money policies that were allowed to go at the Federal Reserve.

I would like to keep more of my own money as well, I believe in paying my taxes however I don't want to pay more just because somebody in Detroit or Pennsylvania are losing their jobs.

Nemont
 
so long as it cheaper to import finished steel products from kora, and china, there's no way the steel industry can make it.

I remember last year buying steel "t" posts from home depot that were made in kora. If that aint a joke I dont know what is.

"t" posts are nearly raw steal in the form of a fence post? What? It costs more to ship that post than it's worth. If we can even make raw steel stateside cheaper that we can buy it from off the boat, and from countries what dont even have their own sources of ore, were are in a sad state of affairs. All the CEO's need to be fired. . . start over. . . the writings been on the wall for the past 10 years but know one's been listening, we've all been buying more and more and more just like GW told us too, now that it's over the card house will crumble. . .
 
I guess the tax cuts didn't directly cause the sub prime mess, they did help feed the greed that caused the market to overheat, Paul Krugman said a year ago that things would not get better for the middle class until we got a new new deal,maybe thats what we are getting now, Its far more productive to spend money putting Americans to work building and producing things in our country that it is to build bombs to blow things up and pay for long term health care for disabled soldiers and lose train cars of hundred dollar bills while rebuilding infastructure in far away foreign countrys while burning unreal amounts of fossel fuel and giving huge sums of money to Halliburton or Blackwater when much of that money isn't even taxed, Big pharma is sitting on more than a hundred billion dollars in cash reserves all while being subsidised by taxpayers thats one example of why I don't get worked up over this steelworker stuff, the time to make noise was 5, 10, 15 years ago, right now we are just trying to keep the ship from sinking
 
As I watch this whole mess unfold I'm starting to think a depression is the only way out. have most of the population lose everything, then when they get a van to live down by the river in they'll think they're in tall cotton.

No matter what Obama does nobody is going to be happy, and probably no matter what he does we're screwed. maybe study what the conservatives have done the last 8 years and then do excatly the opposite will work. I have tried to be positive about the chances of a long but structured recovery, but I'm losing hope as this mess spread like cancer.

And no, letting the auto industry fall won't make it all better, that's about the only action taken I agree with so far.
 
HD,
How do you build cars without steel? How do you make steel without Coke and Iron Ore? or Without railways to carry it all? All of those industries will want their own bailout from Washington. How do you decide that the UAW's jobs are more important then Steel Workers, Rail Road Employees and Miners? Their industries are as important to our entire economy as the auto industry.

Now I see that the Federal Government is adding 600,000 more jobs to it's own payroll. That is more jobs then all the domestic auto makers have here in the U.S.

From Obama Radio address on 1/3/09
-?We need an American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan that not only creates jobs in the short-term but spurs economic growth and competitiveness in the long-term,? he says. ?And this plan must be designed in a new way?we can't just fall into the old Washington habit of throwing money at the problem. We must make strategic investments that will serve as a down payment on our long-term economic future. We must demand vigorous oversight and strict accountability for achieving results. And we must restore fiscal responsibility and make the tough choices so that as the economy recovers, the deficit starts to come down. That is how we will achieve the number one goal of my plan?which is to create three million new jobs, more than eighty percent of them in the private sector.? HMMM 3 million x 20%=600,000 Government jobs.

I wonder why he said he would only create 3 million jobs, why not 5 million?

Couple that gem with the fact that next year the U.S. is going to run a budget deficit of over $1 TRILLION and the hand writing is on the wall. We have spent $7 to $8 TRILLION, perhaps more if the Fed were more transparent, of money we don't have to pay for industries who are not competitive. We deserve exactly what is going to happen to us. I feel sorry for the poor and elderly because they will get absolutely wiped out in the coming inflationary period. The middle class will cease to exists in the U.S. because their labors will be squandering earning worthless dollars and their cost of living is going to shoot up to levels never seen before.

I for one wish the government would stop helping.

Nemont
 
Piper,

Do you believe that when Tax money goes to Washington that it is spent wisely? How do you think "big pharma" got their money from the taxpayers? Or big anything else? Sending more money to Washington is like taking your hard earned money and throwing it up in the wind.

Nemont
 
Probably not Nemont but sometimes money needs to be directed to places that benefit the country as a whole, things like the interstate highway system or grants that provide modern sewer systems for small communitys, years ago the rural electrification projects would have never been done if it had been left up to the market, leaving the markets alone too much is a big part of the sub prime mess.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-09 AT 05:14PM (MST)[p]

Just like leaving markets alone is a bad thing, so is attempting to control what they do. The subprime mess is an example of over regulation by attempting to increase home ownership rates among minorities and requiring lenders to make such loans. When private lenders were reluctant the government basically ordered Fannie and Freddie to do it. In testimony, under oath, Barney Frank stated that there was no problem with Freddie or Fannie and successful held up any attempt to regulate them. Even though there were alarm bells sounding the politicians didn't want to admit there was a problem. Tax reciepts were up, full employment was at hand and they were all busy patting themselves on the back. The problem is that it was an illusion caused by by the Fed's easy money policy, political cheerleading and the ability of the American people's ability to delude themselves into thinking that consumption was production.


I have lost all faith in our political system, it doesn't self correct any more and given the partisan environment in Washington there is no longer any way to govenor this country effectively, regardless who is in power. The looming economic disaster would have happened whether or not the democrats or the republicans are in charge because there isn't a dimes worth of difference between them. Neither are going to do what needs to be done to change things for the better. Right now Washington is fighting an econmic fire and their solution is to pour buckets of gasoline on it.

We are all going to be poorer and no amount of tax and spend or borrow and spend is going to build our economy. Just wait until the rest of the world no longer wants to or even can afford to buy our debt.

Ask yourself this:Where is all this money to be borrowed going to come from? Every developed and most developing countries are looking at borrowing money to inject it into their economies, even China is needing to finance a rescue plan for their economy. China has theirs in the bank but that will mean they won't be in the market for our debt. What is going to happen then, what rates are we going to have to pay for this money, if anyone will want to purchase it?

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-09 AT 05:13PM (MST)[p]I don't think we can spend our way to success, that's why I said we're screwed. this mess is snowballing and grabbing up more players by the day, it's too big to control now I'm thinking.

Most industry can shut down easier than the auto industry , it needs to keep working on a better mouse trap or be left behind by the imports when this breaks someday. as fas as the steel goes that can be bought from importers nothing new there and lets face it, in this economy they aren't going to need much steel because they aren't going to sell any cars.

If the government plays it's hand and it doesn't work look out, it's going to be a blood bath because there will be nothing left to give hope so we'll have a true depression. if it does work then yippie, we're a debtor nation with a crappy economy. either way inflation is unavoidable, this thing is going to be ugly. I hate to be a downer but the only thing driving the markets anymore is guessing when and where the feds will put money they don't have, we're already toast.
 
The auto companies are going to have to go through bankruptcy in order to clear their balance sheets of all their bad obligations. Even the democrats are starting to say this and the union guys are going to have to come to grips with it.

What is the difference between buying a car that is made up of foreign parts and buying a Toyota or Honda built here in the U.S.? I find it interesting that you can throw all other industries under the bus but not the Auto industry? Interesting view point. Who exactly is going to left then to buy these cars that Detroit is going to build?

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-09 AT 10:47PM (MST)[p]Most parts for GM and Ford are not made overseas, chrysler imports far more. a Toyota might be assembled here but most of it is made overseas, almost all of the R&D is done overseas and the company isn't American. apples and Tuesday.

The economy is toast, we can't bail out everyone so we have to make choices. steel, transportation, aluminum whatever will still be here and ready to go to work when the demand is, yes maybe new faces but demand will make it happen. the auto industry is far different and make no mistake about it no way no how is Japan going to let it's auto industry fail no matter how long this drags on. so if we let the auto industry fold when the economy does come around, and that might be a while they'll have a product design and the ability to manufacture it to compete with the foreign competition. it doesn't take much R&D to catch up on producing a sheet of steel.

I don't care for any of this bail out crap, but the auto industry makes long term sense, the banks don't. the money we can't even account for given to the banks far exceeds saving our auto industry from the japs, why is it only the auto money gives you heartburn? I don't follow that. as I said before I think we're beating a dead horse anyway at this point, the time to save us from a depression passed us by a few years ago.
 
nothing ticks me off more than government giveaways, I think they should cut back all non essential government employees to 35 hours a week with a corresponding pay cut and no more retirement benefits until 62 yrs old or so, I could tell you a story about my neighbor and his military benefits, its something, a lot of things should change but they probably won't, Is there another country with citizens as greedy as this one? all the unemployment and there are hundreds of illegals working out in the gas fields close to where I live, I bet that wouldn't that happen in Canada Im all for a real revolution a redistribution of wealth and all but thats not likely either, so anyway if the white collar workers bring the blue collar workers down, I just hope the blue collars have the guts to take a bunch of whiteys down with them. I just came back from the store and stood behind a bunch of Mexican gas field employees so Im venting a little here
 
Today Alcoa said they're laying off 13,500 workers. like I said this thing gets worse by the day, 10,000 jobs here , 100 there, 10 there it adds up to more jobs than Obama is talking by spending a trillion dollars we don't have.

This is going to get ugly, Obama just won the election to end his career. perfect example of be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
 

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