NR Irritation

I assume you didn’t draw again like me in New Mexico
Correct. I knew I was swinging for the fences this yr rather than having lower odd hunts as my third choice, but it still sucks. Big game hunting became my passion while I lived out there and watching NRs get crapped on throughout the western states has been depressing to say the least.
 
It doesn’t “Seem” that way….. It is that way.
The outfitter Welfare system killed my streak in NM
it gets tougher and tougher every year for NR's to draw tags. So if the odds get worse, you just need to increase the number of applications in hopes of drawing a tag (i.e. - if your odds are getting cut in half then you need to double the number of applications). My sons and I submit almost 200 applications each year in the major western big game states in hopes of drawing one or two tags each year. Yes, it is an expensive and frustrating game, but if you want to play and get decent tags, that is about the only way. The days are gone when you can just hunt one or two states and expect to get tags.
 
I'm a nonresident and live right next to the NM board. For the last 8 years I've really considered moving a 3 miles to be a NM resident. I would loose a lot on taxes and MLG would be my governor so I haven't done it.

I can see how Eastern, Midwestern and Texans have a difficult time understanding why nonresidents are discriminated by so much. It is the way it has been for decades. Nonresidents being discriminated against is an issue that is accepted by almost all hunters that live in Western states even when many of us hunt other western states as much or more than our home state. The best advice I can give you is move to the state that you want to hunt in.

My personal solution for nonresidents would be to remove the "outfitter welfare" laws. (10% of the public tags and all the private tag in NM, wilderness law in Wyoming, etc) No guiding for fishing or hunting on any public lands would make me happy but that is never going to happen.
 
Love NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
 
Love NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
, NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
I put in with an outfitter and no dice in a fairly easy unit , but its all good
 
Love NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.

I'm not aware of any other state that has a welfare system for outfitters.
 
I'm not aware of any other state that has a welfare system for outfitters.
Many other states have welfare for outfitters. Idaho has set aside tags, similar to NM. Same with Nevada. Wyoming has the "wilderness law" that is even worse than outfitter set aside. AZ is a good example of a state that doesn't give a bunch of tags away to special interest.

RoughCountry,
The outfitter tags and similar laws are simply a welfare system for outfitters. Why should government give a preference to a specific group of people when it comes to a public resource? Politicians give away deals to the friends all the time. Just because it is a common practice, doesn't mean it is right.
 
Many other states have welfare for outfitters. Idaho has set aside tags, similar to NM. Same with Nevada. Wyoming has the "wilderness law" that is even worse than outfitter set aside. AZ is a good example of a state that doesn't give a bunch of tags away to special interest.

RoughCountry,
The outfitter tags and similar laws are simply a welfare system for outfitters. Why should government give a preference to a specific group of people when it comes to a public resource? Politicians give away deals to the friends all the time. Just because it is a common practice, doesn't mean it is right.

Well shoot. Now I can't move to ID to get away from MLG...
 
I hate to see hunters go all woke and ruin the best draw in the west. I have been putting in for elk in AZ for almost 18 years straight and never have drawn an elk tag, got 19 non res points now, because AZG&F just changes things when they want to but in NM I’ve drawn a bunch of them and years I didn’t I buy a LO tag that some guys ***** about as bad as they do outfitters. Can’t make everyone happy I guess.
 
10% of the tags in the outfitter pool are not all NR. Eleminating this pool benefits both residents and non residents alike.
No it doesn’t any resident that applies in that pool would have to be an idiot. The resident odds are much better than outfitter pool odds.
 
Can I get an amen? @JB1975
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No it doesn’t any resident that applies in that pool would have to be an idiot. The resident odds are much better than outfitter pool odds.
Nm residents can improve their draw odds substantially for offrange oryx and Barbary sheep by applying in the outfitter pool. For bighorn, ibex, on range oryx, elk or antelope a resident will have higher draw odds applying as a resident vs in the outfitter pool.
 
Outfitter welfare or not nonresidents should realize that going from 16% of tags to 10% will not equate to better draw odds. It’s common sense.
It will increase the draw odds of residents. I'm a nonresident and I would be willing to have decreased odds on some hunts to remove the welfare system. Another problem with the outfitter draw is that mathematically I cannot even draw many of the pronghorn tags from the 6% nonresident pool because there are only 10 tags for pronghorns on many hunts. If nonresidents were given 10% of the tags, at least I would have a chance at drawing one of those tags which is better than my current 0%.

The only hunters that like the outfitter set aside are outfitters and hunters that want to hunt with outfitters. Everyone else views it as a welfare system. Why don't you want the same odds as everyone else? You are either benefiting by guiding hunters or are benefiting by having better draw odds than other hunters. Just because extra $$ is involved, doesn't mean that you should get extra privilege above everyone else.
 
I hate to see hunters go all woke and ruin the best draw in the west. I have been putting in for elk in AZ for almost 18 years straight and never have drawn an elk tag, got 19 non res points now, because AZG&F just changes things when they want to but in NM I’ve drawn a bunch of them and years I didn’t I buy a LO tag that some guys ***** about as bad as they do outfitters. Can’t make everyone happy I guess.
There are only two reasons to want outfitter tags.
#1 You are an outfitter and believe you are entitled to the welfare
#2 You hunt with outfitters and think the extra $$ you spend on outfitters entitles you to better odds than everyone else.
Everyone else views the outfitter 10% as welfare. Why not even the playing field and give all the nonresidents the same odds?
 
Nm residents can improve their draw odds substantially for offrange oryx and Barbary sheep by applying in the outfitter pool. For bighorn, ibex, on range oryx, elk or antelope a resident will have higher draw odds applying as a resident vs in the outfitter pool.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! I know people that do this crap every year and draw every damn year. Gaming the system no question.

I also agree all odds for NR and residents need to be equal. Meaning no outfittted NR vs NR and no resident vs outfitted resident. Nock it down to just 2 categories and make RO tags and we got a winner!
 
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! I know people that do this crap every year and draw every damn year. Gaming the system no question.

I also agree all odds for NR and residents need to be equal. Meaning no outfittted NR vs NR and no resident vs outfitted resident. Nock it down to just 2 categories and make RO tags and we got a winner!

I know some people that took this very advantage when it was first implemented years ago. One person in the family circle got their outfitters number, and then members of the circle used that to draw tags - and they drew some really good tags. They still draw some really good tags.

Not a speculation. They talked about the advantage as though they won the lottery...
 
I hate to see hunters go all woke and ruin the best draw in the west. I have been putting in for elk in AZ for almost 18 years straight and never have drawn an elk tag, got 19 non res points now, because AZG&F just changes things when they want to but in NM I’ve drawn a bunch of them and years I didn’t I buy a LO tag that some guys ***** about as bad as they do outfitters. Can’t make everyone happy I guess.
What has the AGFD changed with the draw in the last 20 years that prevented you from getting an elk permit?
 
What has the AGFD changed with the draw in the last 20 years that prevented you from getting an elk permit?
10 years ago all 10% of the high demand nonresident tags would go to the nonresidents with the most point
(first pass of AZ draw).
This effectively made it a pure preference point system for all high demand nonresident tags. About 7? or 8? years ago AZ changed the nonresident allocation so only 50% the nonresident tags would go to the highest point holder (first pass) and 50% would be drawn in the 2nd pass. 80%+ of the resident tags are still drawn in the "2nd pass".

This rule change didn't prevent him from drawing an elk tag in AZ. There are plenty of great elk tags a nonresident can get in the 1st pass with 19 or less points. It could have increased the wait time for the one specific tag he wanted and I can see how many nonresidents felt scammed by AZ. Roughcountry is a perfect example of why point systems are a scam. The rules get changed after you have invested significant time and $$. Random draws like NM and ID are the way to go in my opinion.
 
I know some people that took this very advantage when it was first implemented years ago. One person in the family circle got their outfitters number, and then members of the circle used that to draw tags - and they drew some really good tags. They still draw some really good tags.

Not a speculation. They talked about the advantage as though they won the lottery...
Another great example of why outfitter tags are a bad deal for most hunts. Maybe I should get an outfitters license so I can $$ in on the welfare.
 
Many other states have welfare for outfitters. Idaho has set aside tags, similar to NM. Same with Nevada. Wyoming has the "wilderness law" that is even worse than outfitter set aside. AZ is a good example of a state that doesn't give a bunch of tags away to special interest.

RoughCountry,
The outfitter tags and similar laws are simply a welfare system for outfitters. Why should government give a preference to a specific group of people when it comes to a public resource? Politicians give away deals to the friends all the time. Just because it is a common practice, doesn't mean it is right.
Because it create jobs and brings in gross receipt taxes.
 
I’m still stoked, I haven’t slept in two nights, the night before the draw and the night after I learned I drew deer and elk. I went to the shop yesterday and started working on things. Packed the wheel bearings on the deer cart, took inventory of gear and started making scouting plans. I’ll probably be hunting by myself this year as things stand now. This is the first time I’ve ever applied solo on all my applications. Good luck to all.
 
10 years ago all 10% of the high demand nonresident tags would go to the nonresidents with the most point
(first pass of AZ draw).
This effectively made it a pure preference point system for all high demand nonresident tags. About 7? or 8? years ago AZ changed the nonresident allocation so only 50% the nonresident tags would go to the highest point holder (first pass) and 50% would be drawn in the 2nd pass. 80%+ of the resident tags are still drawn in the "2nd pass".

This rule change didn't prevent him from drawing an elk tag in AZ. There are plenty of great elk tags a nonresident can get in the 1st pass with 19 or less points. It could have increased the wait time for the one specific tag he wanted and I can see how many nonresidents felt scammed by AZ. Roughcountry is a perfect example of why point systems are a scam. The rules get changed after you have invested significant time and $$. Random draws like NM and ID are the way to go in my opinion.
For anyone below the maximum as he has been, that change was a benefit, not a hindrance. That's why I specifically typed 'you' in my question. ;)
 
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Another great example of why outfitter tags are a bad deal for most hunts. Maybe I should get an outfitters license so I can $$ in on the welfare.

They put a stop to that with the contract in place before applying. Can you still cheat? Yep. But, if they're caught, the consequences are pretty steep..
 
Just need to load the shotgun and get more apps out there. I got lucky and drew NM elk so going to change my Wyoming elk to max point to avoid drawing and push it another year. Drew a MT limited deer tag already and app season just got going!!! Unfortunately you have to do five or six states minimum or 9... to have consistent good draw tags for various species. It certainly takes up hunting funds. Sitting there on a beautiful day working overtime instead of turkey hunting as I type this of course. ??
 
For anyone below the maximum as he has been, that change was a benefit, not a hindrance. That's why I specifically typed 'you' in my question. ;)
I thought you were asking a serious question. I can see how some AZ nonresident hunters would have been upset by the change. I was personally very happy when AZ made that change. I was able to draw a good AZ elk tag with zero points in the second pass a couple years after the change was made.
 
They put a stop to that with the contract in place before applying. Can you still cheat? Yep. But, if they're caught, the consequences are pretty steep..
I hope they catch those that do cheat but you could easily create a “outfitter business” were multiple family and friends are “guides”. As long as one of your buddies who was a “guide” was with you on the first two days of your hunt it would be perfectly legal. I’m sure this really irritates the established outfitters when “their tags” are being stolen by “pseudo outfitter”.
 
There are only two reasons to want outfitter tags.
#1 You are an outfitter and believe you are entitled to the welfare
#2 You hunt with outfitters and think the extra $$ you spend on outfitters entitles you to better odds than everyone else.
Everyone else views the outfitter 10% as welfare. Why not even the playing field and give all the nonresidents the same odds?
Or you have common sense and realize going from 16% of tags down to 10% will not equal better draw odds for any nonresidents
 
Because it create jobs and brings in gross receipt taxes.
I’m hoping that was a sarcastic comment mocking the outfitter welfare.

If you are serious and really believe that, why not make all nonresident hire and outfitter and increase the outfitter pool to 50% of the tags? It would help create more jobs and increase the gross receipt taxes.
 
I hope they catch those that do cheat but you could easily create a “outfitter business” were multiple family and friends are “guides”. As long as one of your buddies who was a “guide” was with you on the first two days of your hunt it would be perfectly legal. I’m sure this really irritates the established outfitters when “their tags” are being stolen by “pseudo outfitter”.
My buddies in El Paso who used to draw frequently offered to pay for my guide license and all expenses associated with it if I would become a guide. I didn’t see good things happening for me by going that route. I’m sure it’s done though…
 
Or you have common sense and realize going from 16% of tags down to 10% will not equal better draw odds for any nonresidents
I do realize that it would likely decrease my odds slightly for some tags but it would also make it possible to draw some tags. It would also benefit residents who have been putting up with the outfitter welfare in their state.
 
I hereby propose an 88/12 Split! No outfitter draw (And I apply with outfitters for some tags, for perspective).

I’m sure NM doesn’t give a Sh!T what I think though…..
 
Because it create jobs and brings in gross receipt taxes.
?Very true. It's a job most people dream about that they wish they can do and if it was their livelihood, I doubt they'd be bitching about it. Outfitters payout fees back to gov agencies for access permits, hired guides, cooks, groceries and fuel costs. There's alot of prep/admin time associated too. Preparing trip plans for every hunt on every national Forrest being hunted. A lot of detailed work behind the scenes takes place long before the hunt season starts. So I wouldn't call it a welfare program. It's more than jumping in a truck or taking a few guys on a stroll through the field and pocketing money.
 
Or you have common sense and realize going from 16% of tags down to 10% will not equal better draw odds for any nonresidents

Again, you're assuming all outfitter tags are all non-resident. You don't know what the distribution really is because it doesn't show it. I know of a local Pharmacist (resident) that puts in with and uses an outfitter because it increases his odds of drawing and filling his tag. I know of another dude form Abq that does the same thing. Never mind the fact he has a 75' houseboat on a local lake - he's got the money, so...

You're going to take this personally, and that's okay. But NM really doesn't have to care that it isn't fair a non-resident's draw "odds" go down by favoring those that have to put up with NM's nonsense on a daily basis...
 
I thought you were asking a serious question. I can see how some AZ nonresident hunters would have been upset by the change. I was personally very happy when AZ made that change. I was able to draw a good AZ elk tag with zero points in the second pass a couple years after the change was made.
Oh, I was. The devil is in the details.

He said, "I have been putting in for elk in AZ for almost 18 years straight and never have drawn an elk tag, got 19 non res points now because AZG&F just changes things when they want..."

The last clause implies the changes are the reason he's struck out for 18 years. But since he was nowhere close to the max points during those 18 years, he actually was better off with the change to 50% only in the bonus round.

Now note the bolded words in my serious question to him.

"What has the AGFD changed with the draw in the last 20 years that prevented you from getting an elk permit?

IOW, I asked what directly affected him, per his statement, not why other NRs might not have drawn permits.
 
?Very true. It's a job most people dream about that they wish they can do and if it was their livelihood, I doubt they'd be bitching about it. Outfitters payout fees back to gov agencies for access permits, hired guides, cooks, groceries and fuel costs. There's alot of prep/admin time associated too. Preparing trip plans for every hunt on every national Forrest being hunted. A lot of detailed work behind the scenes takes place long before the hunt season starts. So I wouldn't call it a welfare program. It's more than jumping in a truck or taking a few guys on a stroll through the field and pocketing money.
You are correct sir, I’ve seen guides here have porta potties delivered to their base camp.
 
80% residents
10% non residents
10% people willing to pay 200% of the non resident license fee

I have been applying through an outfitter for years because I am willing to pay to improve my odds - we are 0-52 the past two years so my strategy sucks. I would rather pay that money to the NWGF for habitat improvements, law enforcement, etc.

Sort of like the special license fee in Wyoming.
 
?Very true. It's a job most people dream about that they wish they can do and if it was their livelihood, I doubt they'd be bitching about it. Outfitters payout fees back to gov agencies for access permits, hired guides, cooks, groceries and fuel costs. There's alot of prep/admin time associated too. Preparing trip plans for every hunt on every national Forrest being hunted. A lot of detailed work behind the scenes takes place long before the hunt season starts. So I wouldn't call it a welfare program. It's more than jumping in a truck or taking a few guys on a stroll through the field and pocketing money.
By giving outfitters that 10%, it is taking opportunity away from other hunters (mostly residents) and providing extra $$ for outfitter and extra opportunity for those willing to give outfitters the $$.

The outfitters or guides that I’ve meet are hard working individuals and seem like great people. It would be good to have more people like that in NM. I’m just against government giving special interest groups “favors”.
I have applied in the guide draw in NM to increase my odds. I stopped doing it because I made the decision that I didn’t want to support the welfare system and it was hypocritical of me to take advantage of a system I disagreed with. Hiring a guide would actually be a good financial choice for me instead of taking time off work to scout and pack my own animals out. I get most of my satisfaction from hunting from putting in the time and effort, instead of pulling the trigger and collecting antlers. I guess I shouldn’t try to force my values on others.

Many of us are just asking for a level playing field for all nonresidents to be equal in the draw and all residents to be equal in the draw.
 
By giving outfitters that 10%, it is taking opportunity away from other hunters (mostly residents) and providing extra $$ for outfitter and extra opportunity for those willing to give outfitters the $$.

The outfitters or guides that I’ve meet are hard working individuals and seem like great people. It would be good to have more people like that in NM. I’m just against government giving special interest groups “favors”.
I have applied in the guide draw in NM to increase my odds. I stopped doing it because I made the decision that I didn’t want to support the welfare system and it was hypocritical of me to take advantage of a system I disagreed with. Hiring a guide would actually be a good financial choice for me instead of taking time off work to scout and pack my own animals out. I get most of my satisfaction from hunting from putting in the time and effort, instead of pulling the trigger and collecting antlers. I guess I shouldn’t try to force my values on others.

Many of us are just asking for a level playing field for all nonresidents to be equal in the draw and all residents to be equal in the
Who are you to decide what is “fair”? Your perception of fair is likely very different than another person’s perception of fair. Is it fair that az/wy/co/nv allows hunters to purchase a bonus point or preference point in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that wy allows hunter to pay a premium for a “special license” in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that in order to hunt wilderness in wy, a nonresident has to hire an outfitter or be accompanied by wy resident? Is it fair that Kentucky will allow you to purchase an unlimited number of $10 lottery tickets for their elk draw? Is it fair that western states have to give a certain % of tags to nonresidents? I could go on & on forever with at least another 20 examples of what you would consider “unfair” but the point is nothing in life is 100% fair because “ fairness” is a concept we all define differently
 
Again, you're assuming all outfitter tags are all non-resident. You don't know what the distribution really is because it doesn't show it. I know of a local Pharmacist (resident) that puts in with and uses an outfitter because it increases his odds of drawing and filling his tag. I know of another dude form Abq that does the same thing. Never mind the fact he has a 75' houseboat on a local lake - he's got the money, so...

You're going to take this personally, and that's okay. But NM really doesn't have to care that it isn't fair a non-resident's draw "odds" go down by favoring those that have to put up with NM's nonsense on a daily basis...
The number of residents using the outfitter pool is equivalent to the number of people who have a 75’ house boat. It’s an anomaly not a statistically significant amount. But yes we both agree 90/10 would erode all nonresident’s draw odds.
 
The number of residents using the outfitter pool is equivalent to the number of people who have a 75’ house boat. It’s an anomaly not a statistically significant amount. But yes we both agree 90/10 would erode all nonresident’s draw odds.

Show me the data, I can't find it.
 
By giving outfitters that 10%, it is taking opportunity away from other hunters (mostly residents) and providing extra $$ for outfitter and extra opportunity for those willing to give outfitters the $$.

The outfitters or guides that I’ve meet are hard working individuals and seem like great people. It would be good to have more people like that in NM. I’m just against government giving special interest groups “favors”.
I have applied in the guide draw in NM to increase my odds. I stopped doing it because I made the decision that I didn’t want to support the welfare system and it was hypocritical of me to take advantage of a system I disagreed with. Hiring a guide would actually be a good financial choice for me instead of taking time off work to scout and pack my own animals out. I get most of my satisfaction from hunting from putting in the time and effort, instead of pulling the trigger and collecting antlers. I guess I shouldn’t try to force my values on others.

Many of us are just asking for a level playing field for all nonresidents to be equal in the draw and all residents to be equal in the draw.
Outfitters are like a concierge service at a hotel. They provide aminities and assistants to those that want to pay to play. If people don't want to use it then they don't have to, it's a choice we all have the freedom to make. Again it's not a welfare program. There's no direct deposit going into an outfitters bank account from the state. It's just as much as a lottery draw for every outfitter competing against each other for business within that 10% allocation. It's certainly not a gimme to everyone who applies through an outfitter. Resident or non resident.
 
I’d just like to hunt NM once or twice in my life. So far, no dice. I’m 46. I do put in for good tags but it really wouldn’t change that much if I didn’t. NR, no outfitter odds pretty much suck. Is what it is.
 
I’d just like to hunt NM once or twice in my life. So far, no dice. I’m 46. I do put in for good tags but it really wouldn’t change that much if I didn’t. NR, no outfitter odds pretty much suck. Is what it is.

Yep, me too. I know of a family circle that all drew way good tags this year, the ones I regularly use as an example that could apply for 6B every year and get it.
 
Outfitters are like a concierge service at a hotel. They provide aminities and assistants to those that want to pay to play. If people don't want to use it then they don't have to, it's a choice we all have the freedom to make. Again it's not a welfare program. There's no direct deposit going into an outfitters bank account from the state. It's just as much as a lottery draw for every outfitter competing against each other for business within that 10% allocation. It's certainly not a gimme to everyone who applies through an outfitter. Resident or non resident.
Sorry, you haven't convinced me that giving outfitters 10% of the tags is not a form of government welfare. Call it whatever you want but the outfitter 10% reduces opportunities for many "poor" hunters every year so that the "rich" hunters can have better odds. If you think that is a good thing, then you are entitled to your opinion.

If your a NR, your opinion really doesn't matter.

The 90/10 eliminates the welfare as well...
I'm a NR, does my opinion matter? I have no problem with a 90/10 split in NM.
 
Sorry, you haven't convinced me that giving outfitters 10% of the tags is not a form of government welfare. Call it whatever you want but the outfitter 10% reduces opportunities for many "poor" hunters every year so that the "rich" hunters can have better odds. If you think that is a good thing, then you are entitled to your opinion.


I'm a NR, does my opinion matter? I have no problem with a 90/10 split in NM.
It’s hard to figure out some people. You have just as much right to hunt National Forest as any resident. They take your tax dollars and then you have some wanting you to sit down and be quiet, your opinion matters as much as the next guys. When I was a kid my daddy used to talk about how hunting would be a rich man’s sport in this country one day. Well…
 
I'm just messing with you but I really do think 90/10 is a fair for resident vs nonresident in western states. Even though most of my hunting the last several years has been as a nonresident, I think it is important to preserve resident hunting opportunities over nonresident hunting opportunities.
It’s hard to figure out some people. You have just as much right to hunt National Forest as any resident. They take your tax dollars and then you have some wanting you to sit down and be quiet, your opinion matters as much as the next guys. When I was a kid my daddy used to talk about how hunting would be a rich man’s sport in this country one day. Well…
"rich man's sport" is really the issue I have with outfitter tags. I think animals should be earned by hard work and skill, instead of collecting antlers with $$. It is really sad to see hunting becoming more and more of a rich mans sport.
 
"rich man's sport" is really the issue I have with outfitter tags. I think animals should be earned by hard work and skill, instead of collecting antlers with $$. It is really sad to see hunting becoming more and more of a rich mans sport.

I think outfitters, like any business, should have to compete in the open market like any other business. If you're good at it, finding clients is not going to be a problem. If you're only able to get clients because you're the cheapest one on the block and rely on the welfare program, then you should be forced to close your doors due to the competitive market.

If you're good at it, and the cheapest one on the block, you will dominate the market.
 
Maybe we can get some cheap Chinese outfitters over here that you can hire right out of Wal Mart, I mean it is quantity over quality right, like just about everything else America buys…
 
Well 12 years in a row I’ve been trying to draw a quality New Mexico elk tag as a non resident without any success. But you know what, I praise the way New Mexico treats non residents in the draw. Just wish my home state of Colorado would do the same !!! And quit there over the counter BS !
 
Well 12 years in a row I’ve been trying to draw a quality New Mexico elk tag as a non resident without any success. But you know what, I praise the way New Mexico treats non residents in the draw. Just wish my home state of Colorado would do the same !!! And quit there over the counter BS !
There are still tags available for a number of units in NM. $6,750 landowner, rifle, bow, muzzy, entire unit you pick hunt date.
 
Only tags I’d be interested in would be some of the top tier land owner tags. I used to purchase those years ago but those as everyone knows have tripled in price over the years. I’m not bitching about New Mexicos current allocation and process. Just wish Colorado would follow suit. Residency should mean something as far as getting tags go.
 
Just need to load the shotgun and get more apps out there. I got lucky and drew NM elk so going to change my Wyoming elk to max point to avoid drawing and push it another year. Drew a MT limited deer tag already and app season just got going!!! Unfortunately you have to do five or six states minimum or 9... to have consistent good draw tags for various species. It certainly takes up hunting funds. Sitting there on a beautiful day working overtime instead of turkey hunting as I type this of course. ??
You can change your WY elk choice after submitting it, after the deadline, and before the draw results are released??
 
80% residents
10% non residents
10% people willing to pay 200% of the non resident license fee

I have been applying through an outfitter for years because I am willing to pay to improve my odds - we are 0-52 the past two years so my strategy sucks. I would rather pay that money to the NWGF for habitat improvements, law enforcement, etc.

Sort of like the special license fee in Wyoming.
I could get behind this!
 
If we're going to be generous, let's do 80/20.
As long as AZ, WY, UT, CO, MT, and ID do the same...
Why not just go and shoot the animals without a tag, go to church, confess your sins, say 5 our fathers and hail Mary’s and move on with life? And still get into heaven!
 
Why not just go and shoot the animals without a tag, go to church, confess your sins, say 5 our fathers and hail Mary’s and move on with life? And still get into heaven!
Ammo shortage. Better to roofy them into hibernation like they did to get them all on the Arc.
 
My personal solution for nonresidents would be to remove the "outfitter welfare" laws. (10% of the public tags and all the private tag in NM, wilderness law in Wyoming, etc) No guiding for fishing or hunting on any public lands would make me happy but that is never going to happen.
So you want to tell a private land owner whom probably pays more in real estate taxes for the year then you do in 2-3 yrs ..what he can or can't do with his private property just because you can't access it
Or they lease it or charge for access ,,I mean screw private property rights, if you can't hunt it then don't allow them tags to hunt their own property even though they pay taxes (probably more taxes ) until they allow you on their land because you think your entitled to the game on their land even though you don't pay their taxes.... ,yeah that will teach them
And they claim land owners are greedy might want to look in the mirror
 
Wish I had known that…

Now that results are not until end of May at least they let you change it if you drew NM or AZ for something. It is nice to be able to do that. This is second year in a row I have drawn an elk tag before May. Az last year NM this year.
May is now a crazy busy month for those that shotgun it all out there. Most people would rather have results in Feb before the other draws are due. Now that is pushed to I wish they just make it June. Then you could modify it until beginning of June and let Utah NV etc draws come out first.
 
So you want to tell a private land owner whom probably pays more in real estate taxes for the year then you do in 2-3 yrs ..what he can or can't do with his private property just because you can't access it
Or they lease it or charge for access ,,I mean screw private property rights, if you can't hunt it then don't allow them tags to hunt their own property even though they pay taxes (probably more taxes ) until they allow you on their land because you think your entitled to the game on their land even though you don't pay their taxes.... ,yeah that will teach them
And they claim land owners are greedy might want to look in the mirror
I didn't say anything about limiting private property rights. Removing the "outfitter welfare 10%" in NM and "wilderness law" in Wyoming would not infringe on anyones private property. No guiding on public lands wouldn't infringe on anyones private property rights either. I actually see some positives from e plus in NM and other states landowner tags but landowner tags can also be abused.

By bringing up "taxes", I'm going to assume you believe in the "kings deer" model. You are welcome to have that opinion if you want and I'm welcome to disagree. I'm certain I pay more taxes than many people that own thousands of acres of private property. I can more than afford to pay a trespass fee to hunt on quality private land in multiple states every year if I wanted to.

I just get no satisfaction in using $$ to buy antlers. I get my satisfaction out of a hunt by the process and effort I put in to the hunt. If you get satisfaction from hunting "the kings deer", that is great for you but don't expect me to agree with or have a false belief that I'm envious of those who hunt the "kings deer".
 
Love NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
im 67 born in nm and have hunted here my whole life...im just a hunter that has applied and researched forever...ive drawn 6b elk and other tough draws...outfitter welfare...are you kidding? i drew a 16d early rifle hunt this year...my odds were BETTER without my outfitter who im using for my hunt....go to nmgf website and LOOK at the draw odds...and quit bitching about what you dont know about...rough country is right...ive hunted every where...nm is fair
 
im 67 born in nm and have hunted here my whole life...im just a hunter that has applied and researched forever...ive drawn 6b elk and other tough draws...outfitter welfare...are you kidding? i drew a 16d early rifle hunt this year...my odds were BETTER without my outfitter who im using for my hunt....go to nmgf website and LOOK at the draw odds...and quit bitching about what you dont know about...rough country is right...ive hunted every where...nm is fair

I'm not 67, wasn't born in NM, and have hunted here my whole life too. I've drawn 6B, Valle Vidal, and a pocket full of other good hunts.

I've never used an outfitter, and it makes more sense to do away with the outfitter coddling program than it does the EPlus program and quit bitching about what you don't know about too...
 
Who are you to decide what is “fair”? Your perception of fair is likely very different than another person’s perception of fair. Is it fair that az/wy/co/nv allows hunters to purchase a bonus point or preference point in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that wy allows hunter to pay a premium for a “special license” in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that in order to hunt wilderness in wy, a nonresident has to hire an outfitter or be accompanied by wy resident? Is it fair that Kentucky will allow you to purchase an unlimited number of $10 lottery tickets for their elk draw? Is it fair that western states have to give a certain % of tags to nonresidents? I could go on & on forever with at least another 20 examples of what you would consider “unfair” but the point is nothing in life is 100% fair because “ fairness” is a concept we all define differently
right on!! im a nm resident and i apply my ass off...i drew valle calderas and used a a guide and my wife too....we were EXTREMELY lucky...and i drew a 16d elk hunt this year and will be using a guide...welfare guiding? GIVE ME A BREAK...ive known a bunch of outfitters/guides they aint rich...if you want bull tags go to nm and buy you a 20000 acre ranch..and then figure out you will have to sell elk tags to pay for the damn thing cuz of wolves, drought, etc....wyoming just taught us about non res...got 19 moose points and now im screwed
 
We've got $poor hunters that can't afford to increase their draw odds.

We've got $poor outfitters that can use any help they can get to increase business.

We've also got business owners, skilled and unskilled labor, and engineers that work on government funded projects.

So, I'm not so sure that I'd call the NM tag allocation system "welfare" lest I be accused of hypocrisy.

The complaint sounds like the result of fermenting wicked Alinsky-esque communist class warfare, except that it is hard to tell who are the rich and who are the poor, who are the producers and who are the takers.

I think that the marginal increase in benefits to tag applicants doesn't remotely offset the marginal loss to outfitters, and so in absence of overwhelming improvements to the hunting community at large, no changes should be made.

Frankly, we need more class cooperation instead.
 

New Mexico Guides & Outfitters

H & A Outfitters

Private and public land hunts since 1992 for elk, mule deer, sheep, pronghorn, black Bear & lion hunts.

505 Outfitters

Public and private land big game hunts. Rifle, muzzleloader and archery hunts available. Free Draw Application Service!

Sierra Blanca Outfitters

Offering a wide array of hunt opportunities and putting clients in prime position to bag a trophy.

Urge 2 Hunt

Hunts in New Mexico on private ranches and remote public land in the top units. Elk vouchers available.

Mangas Outfitters

Landowner tags available! Hunt big bulls and bucks. Any season and multiple hunt units to choose from.

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