NRs applications/ multiple species HURTS us

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-19 AT 03:28PM (MST)[p]Who out there as a NR likes the present odds for drawing that trophy elk or deer hunt? NOT ME! How would you like to have your odds essentially double overnight (maybe more than double), and make it easier to reach the "bonus tag" level"? ME, ME, ME!

Fact: If we went back to being able to apply for only one TAG/hunt, our odds would go up tremendously from current ones.

Fact: Residents can only apply for 1 species at a time? Why did they change us but not them?

Answer:
1) Residents don't want the crappy odds that we get with multiple applications and they have a voice.
2) We don't really have a voice and by switching us to multiple apps, we send them a LOT more money.

So why don't they get the best of both worlds. Let us only apply for one tag/hunt, but allow us to apply for preference points and bonus points too. That way our odds go back up for the hunt we really want most, and they get their money. I certainly would continue to buy PPs and bonus points so that once I draw my elk tag, I can then start putting in for a LE deer. Even residents might be ok with making this change for themselves, so they can start building points for another species for the day when they decide to apply. And that would send more money Utahs way

I fail to see a real downside to this plan. We get better odds and Utah still gets its money. Yes, I am sure that there would be a few NRs that like to be in pot for all the hunts Utah has to offer BUT:

Fact: you are really only in for 1 hunt! That is right, if/when you ever draw that tag, you are REMOVED from being able to draw another tag that year because we can't draw more than one. So they are taking our money under the pretense that we are applying for multiple tags, but in reality we are getting much worse odds and can still only draw 1 tag!

Tell me where the flaw in my thinking is

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[txhunter58]

I suspect that Utah powers that be might think they would get less apps if they did that, but why would they. Any of you out there gonna stop putting in for a bonus point for a future species? Might actually attract more apps because odds would go up

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[hornkiller]

With only 1 or 2 non res tags for most of the hunts what does it really matter? you will never draw more than 1!

 

[SlinginLead]

My chance went out the window for an Elk tag when SFW got in the door. For several years prior to their involvement, there was always 2-4 tags available for the 3 units I would put in for.
Since SFW, it has been reduced to 1 NR tag for those unit, which of course, puts you in the "Random" draw. For "Top Tier" units, it has become nothing but "Luck of the Draw". It has really screwed over people who have been applying for years. I never dreamed when I first applied 23 years ago, that I would still be waiting for a chance at a tag. With age creeping upward, and physical issues I have developed the last several years, I may never draw a "Premium Unit". I may have to settle for a mid-tier unit very soon.

 

[elkassassin]

There is a Trend tx!

And You mentioned it!

MONEY!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!

 

[arns]

It's no different for residents,I think elkassin has 23 elk points And I'm at least 10 years behind him with 21 points for are top elk units.If I want to hunt the early rifle.

 

[JRABQ]

Sounds like a good idea to me TX, so it will never happen!

 

[tkjwonta]

I like the idea, but I wouldn't mind just going back to the system that the residents have, especially for OIL species.

It would also be nice to have a few more units offering more than 1 tag for NR. I wouldn't mind a rotation where say half of the LE units have 2 NR tags one year, and then the other half have 2 NR tags the next year.

Might not be the worst idea to give some units a year "off" once and awhile anyway.

 

[roadrunner]

UT will never have good draw odds as long as they provide only 1 tag for NR's and very limited tags for R's because of managing for quality.

You want opportunity, say goodbye to 380+ bulls and 190+ mule deer - although that is happening on its own anyway in some top tier units.

The ONLY reason I do the point game is someday, maybe, UT will pull its head out of its butt and do away with points altogether and maybe they will zero out the ones with points and award a tag. Wishful thinking...

 

[txhunter58]

Yes, I gave up on applying for a unit like San Juan elk long ago. That would certainly be like winning to lottery. My odds for that unit are now 0.5% chance so doubling that would only be a 1% chance. "So you say there's a chance!"

But there are some good units where my odds of drawing are now above 10%. If we eliminate 1/2 of the apps (or more), then my odds jump to above 20% and the number of apps with Bonus points above me drops. That also means my chance to draw a max point tag increases and/or reduces the number of years before I draw one.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[txhunter58]

"It's no different for residents, I think elkassin has 23 elk points And I'm at least 10 years behind him with 21 points for are top elk units. If I want to hunt the early rifle"

Then you wouldn't mind switching to the deal we have? Elkassin could probably draw a San Juan muzzy tag this year and you would have a shot at it, but could be a year or two out. And your current "general odds" for that tag are 1 in 29.

You would be OK if they changed the odds today so that neither of you can draw that tag anytime soon with max points and the odds went to 1 in 60 or worse? But hey, you could be getting deer and antelope points right, so that is a good trade off?? Not for me!

Yes, in the final analysis, we both have crappy odds of drawing a top tier unit. So why do we have to have even worse odds (1/2 of that) when they could make the change I suggest and make everyone happy?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-19 AT 08:13AM (MST)[p]"With only 1 or 2 non res tags for most of the hunts what does it really matter? you will never draw more than 1!"

At age 61, the question becomes will I ever draw 1! If they went to the system I propose (back to the way it used to be), I would probably draw this year.

And as "you will never draw more than one in a year anyway".

Didn't I hear about someone drawing more than one expo tag? Stranger things have happened. The thing I don't like is that most people out there probably believe that they are applying for multiple tags, but they are not.

For instance, I really want to draw an elk tag more than a deer tag, but the deer drawing comes first, so if I put in for a deer tag now that I have a shot at drawing, it might kick me out of the elk drawing. So what do I do? I put in for a Henry's deer tag because that is the one tag I would take over an elk tag and also because I really don't have a shot at drawing one. But what does that do to the Henry's? I am sure that I am not the only one doing that, so that means the odds for Henrys goes from crappy, to dismal. Sure I could just put in for a Bonus point, but hey, "So your saying there's a chance!"

So change it where if I put in for only an elk tag, but can still put in for a point for deer, and I am a happy camper.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[arns]

The expo is a different animal you can draw multiple tags.One lady drew 3 tags one year,and a lot of people have drew 2 or 3 tags over the years

 

[roadrunner]

That's different discussion for another day...

 

[txhunter58]

>The expo is a different animal
>you can draw multiple tags.One
>lady drew 3 tags one
>year,and a lot of people
>have drew 2 or 3
>tags over the years

My point is that the odds to draw multiple tags is long is both cases. But it could happen. But if lightening struck and you drew 2 with the regular draw, you are not allowed. Thus, you are really only applying for 1 tag even thought most people believe they are applying for more than one.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[arns]

I realize TX that you can only have one tag so which one do they draw first LE or OIL

 

[txhunter58]

Not sure as I don't apply for OIL tags. Only LE deer and elk. And deer is drawn first. So if I draw a deer tag this year I would be out of the running to draw an elk tag.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[buckhorn]

I only apply for deer.
Are you saying that my odds to draw would be better because by what you're proposing the Elk app guys would no longer be in the deer draw?
I do wish they would put a few more of the available tags into the bonus draw.
Any chance of that happening?

Thanks

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-19 AT 03:49PM (MST)[p]Absolutely. If we go back to applying for only one tag (like residents), I (and thousands of other NRs) would NOT be able to apply for a deer tag, and your odds would at least double! People like you that only apply for one species really get screwed.

NRs are locked in to getting only 10% of the tags, so no way for us to get more tags than 1 in 10. That also means that in many units, we get zero. That is mostly due to all the give away tags (like expo tags) that are taken out of the tag pool.

So unless you can fork over the time and money to go to the expo, you are out of luck for more opportunity. And you can only buy the expo tags IN PERSON.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[BillyBoB]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-19 AT 10:18PM (MST)[p]Even the residents understand your complaint.
Add the expo tags to the conversation and it's even worse. We hear you!
Point creep for everyone is ridiculous whether resident or non.
I saw that the expo in 2018 only offered 4 or 5 nonresident tags out of the 200. Hardly a highlight to bring in the average joe nonresidents to the state.
I haven't looked at how many for this years expo.
Residents and nonresidents get screwed. But $FW wins big.
Approx 284,000 applications for the 200 tags last year.
Not good odds for anyone
Unless your last name is Ferrar
10% of the allocated tags in the states draw, go to nonresidents.






"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

 

[2_Point]

nonres apps for multiple species is stupid and hurts applicants. makes the nonres feel they are getting more for their money but is just another ponzi scheme. take and never give back. and it make the state more cash at 10 an app. 10 x 30000 is 300k. many residents are jealous of nonres and want to apply for everything. they have not a clue.

 

[goofyelk]

I've done the math on the NR side of the draw odds.

Its a TOTAL JOKE!

Last year 14,000+ bought points only for elk...
No chance in hell 99% of them will draw A LE tag in their lifetime.
Pretty sad. .

 

[Deerlove]

I was strange when Ut started letting NRs put in for all specis some thought it was great. It was a $ grab from the beginning. If ever NR puts in for all species it's a wash.

 

[BrianID]

This thread provides a good example of what happens in states with preference or bonus points. The only winners in point systems are those that get in on the ground floor and the state. All other hunters are losers in the point/ponzi scams.
Switching nonresidents to one species would improve your odds in random draw but not in the preference point category. If you can still get a preference point for each species every year you will see the same point creep. 20 years from now it is going to take 40+ points to draw some of the premier tags. Premium tags all across the west are trending to a higher percentage of "geriatric" tags or wealth tags ($FW, landowner, outfitter welfare, etc).

 

[2_Point]

cousin moved out of state and plans on moving back within a decade. will have twenty points for each species and become a resident. works for him to jump infront of the line for at least five species. still a bad game for most.

 

[roadrunner]

"10% of the allocated tags in the states draw, go to nonresidents."

Pretty normal allocation for most states, which is fair.

Again, UT's problem is the stinginess of tags. The age of the flat-brim-Insta-hero hunter needs to end and start letting people hunt who enjoy it and want the opportunity to go, both resident and non-resident alike.

 

[BillyBoB]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-19 AT 10:45PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-19 AT 10:44?PM (MST)

roadrunner,
yes...10% is the norm. Which is fair. However, I don't see nearly as many tags getting auctioned or raffled off as much as Utah. In fact, Utah does more than all western states combined! The population in Utah isn't down! The supply can't keep up with the demand! It just makes the situation worse for both res and nonres alike.
It doesn't even make sense!
Yes it does
It's all about the money






"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

 

[roadrunner]

Therein lies the problem, it's all about the money and not all of it goes back into supporting what gave it in the first place.

The reason you don't see the number of tags being auctioned off in other states is because a good 'ol boy problem is not established elsewhere...

 

[marley]

Since UT switched the nonresident application to every species I have drawn a Henry?s deer tag, a boulder mountain elk tag, a mountain goat tag, and a Henry?s bison tag. I won't complain about the current system.

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 05:02PM (MST)[p]I hate guys like you!!!? JK

I guess dentists have all the luck!! I need to shake your hand some day. Maybe some of that luck will rub off!


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[justr_86]

Everybody keeps saying it's about money, but whos pocket is the money going into?

 

[buckhorn]

>Since UT switched the nonresident application
>to every species I have
>drawn a Henry?s deer tag,
>a boulder mountain elk tag,
>a mountain goat tag, and
>a Henry?s bison tag.
>I won't complain about the
>current system.

Congratulations marley
This confirms the post BrianID made above.
The guys that got in on the application process in the beginning for all species are in great shape. But the unlucky ones like me that started applying for deer only and three years late are the ones that are being hurt by the multiple app process.
I agree with tx and would support his proposal the question is how would we get it changed?

 

[Deerlove]

Why would they change it, they would lose $.

 

[Live4MtnHunts]

They could always double or triple the app fee for deer/elk/antelope and the OIL species. That would probably net out the same and most agencies are doing something similar (raising app or point fee). For most of us, the total cost would end up about the same and odds would go up. I'd take a deal like that with the realistic expectation that I'm now focusing on 2 animals (elk/sheep) and have "better" odds.

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 06:57PM (MST)[p]

Deerlove,

Why would they lose money? If they let us apply for only one license, but still allowed us to apply for every species bonus and preference points, they should be very close to getting the same money. I know I would still be applying for an elk tag and a deer bonus point and a deer preference point. Wouldn't you keep sending them money for multiple species even though you are only putting in for one tag?

Would you stop putting in for the extra species at $10/per pop? I wouldn't stop. And maybe they might actually go up in revenue. With better odds, it might attract some new applicants. And if they did the same thing for Residents (apply application for points only), they would take in more money

And like Live4, I would gladly pay $20/ per species if my odds were doubled.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Blank]

The wife and I were out shoveling snow together this morning, and commented how much it is starting to suck at our ages (64 and 68). Her Mom is the last living parent and we thought when she passes, we might have one more move left in us.

I guess it would be to either St. George or Kanab as I have lots of points in Utah now. With 22 for deer, 19 moose, and 10 for all the others I would be set for hunting some decent unit tags for the rest of my years!

 

[justr_86]

Applying for all definitely lowers draw odds. But allowing to buy points for them all still won't change the situation much. Im a non resident now and buy all the points I can. I'll eventually move back and jump in the front of the line for tag after tag.

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-19 AT 08:48PM (MST)[p]But it would keep you in the game.

If you can only apply for one species at a time, by the time you draw that one you have no shot at another species. By allowing to apply for only one tag your odd go up and by allowing other points once I draw my once in a lifetime elk tag I can then shift to trying to draw a deer tag. If I draw one of each before I have to quit hunting ( I am 61) I would be happy!

My kids/ grandkids just moved to Nevada so maybe I can move to Utah when I retire!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[gasman]

I've got 8 points for elk, I'll never see 9. I'm calling it good in Utah for elk. Any tag I can draw in the next 15 years won't be much if any better than a Wyoming general tag I can buy at the Kum and Go.

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

>I've got 8 points for elk,
>I'll never see 9. I'm
>calling it good in Utah
>for elk. Any tag I
>can draw in the next
>15 years won't be much
>if any better than a
>Wyoming general tag I can
>buy at the Kum and
>Go.


Ha gasman I'm right there with ya, I won't see another elk point in Utah either, sucks but that's the way I'm going!!