NV FCFS Bot Discussion @Jan ’22 commissioner meeting

jdp010

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NV FCFS Bot Discussion @Jan ’22 commissioner meeting

Have you bought your own FCFS bot for 2022 so you can compete with the big boys?

~37:00: Watch Commissioner Tommy Caviglia try to help the other commissioners understand how FCFS is being usurped by bots/automation – including an admission by a group of CA residents about how many premium elk tags they obtained by FCFS. The other commissioners cannot and do not engage in such a discussion as it is so far over their level of comprehension. The gray hairs likely too embarrassed to admit they know what a bot is.

~38:30: Watch NDOW Deputy Director Jack Robb assure everyone that it is not possible that the 7 FCFS ram tags were obtained by bots because he called each of the seven to “ensure how it went”. Note; 5 of those 7 ram tags were obtained by NRs in violation of 90/10 cap.

~48:30 – NDOW admitting their brains didn’t work in 2021 in a way to prevent gaming the system. So they did not defend against the multiple browser trick. No one asks why an anti-bot CAPTCHA was not employed nor whether true anti-bot technology will be employed in 2022. The only 2022 changes discussed are “real time” tag availability and 1 tag in cart per 7 days. NEITHER of those will defend against bots.

Video Here:

Imagine the 7 Ram tags conversations (under oath?):

Jack Robb:
“Did you use a bot/script/automation to gain an unfair advantage in obtaining this Desert BHS tag on FCFS?

Utard Bot user: “Gosh no, my religion would not allow me to do that”.

Jack Robb: “OK, have a great time on your Ram hunt that you obtained for $1201 and zero points. Please don’t tell any of those NV residents with 30 sheep points that NDOW gave you this tag rather than contacting the alternate list despite the fact they had this hunt code in position 2-5 on their application. That might upset them and we’re only going to contact position 1 alternates”.

Meanwhile, the NM GFD is considering going to 100/0 for NR BHS tag allocation. That’s right, zero NR NM sheep tags is a possibility. Meanwhile, the NDOW and the commission allowed the 90/10 ratio to be exceeded by 5 Nelson Ram tags and ~50 bull elk tags.

Aside – watch Jan 28 meeting also to understand how NDOW/FCFS is violating the 10% NR cap on ~5 Ram tags and ~50 Bull Elk tags. See video at ~2:19:02


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I’m so glad others are starting to finally see this and catch on. Great post jdp010. I also tried to help Jack Robb out at the beginning of all this FCFS and even though I absolutely love the concept of it, it really needs help by some tech savvy people other than current administration. Problem is Jack Robb’s ego and inability to listen or even care of anyone else’s opinions other than his own. I really hope this post makes it all the way to the top and a lot of people get on board to make a change.
 
This guy is bitching all over the hunting forums I’m six generations deep on both sides of my grandmas in Nevada. Give it a rest if residents are dumb enough to give up a ram tag it’s up for the masses. I realize that tech may take a huge part of this but would it be better if it went to auction and fetch the highest bidder? No problem with fcfs it’s a great program that circulates tags that would not be hunted otherwise.
 
This guy is bitching all over the hunting forums I’m six generations deep on both sides of my grandmas in Nevada. Give it a rest if residents are dumb enough to give up a ram tag it’s up for the masses. I realize that tech may take a huge part of this but would it be better if it went to auction and fetch the highest bidder? No problem with fcfs it’s a great program that circulates tags that would not be hunted otherwise.
Bitching? No way. I don’t think you understand what’s being stated. 90/10 rule? For it or against it, it doesn’t matter. When I draw a mediocre sheep tag with my 20+ points and turn it in knowing I have buddies with an army of guys and computer BOTs ready to pounce as soon as that tag drops! Especially as a nonresident with zero points??? Maybe he or she paid them 5-10k or more?? Who knows?? You’re not understanding it and stating something you’re either apart of or have zero understanding about.
 
So before the tags would be returned and never reissued. Now they are actually being reissued to individuals. Seems to me Nevada got what they wanted, so where is the problem?
Correct, before FCFS - some tags would not have been reissued. I 100% support tags being reissued. But they should be reissued in accordance with 10% NR cap. And with a process that is not subject to Bot usage and other games.

NDOW could call/email all true alternates (anyone who had that tag in positions 1-5 on their app). But instead, they narrowly define "eligible alternate" as only someone who had that tag in position #1.
 
Bitching? No way. I don’t think you understand what’s being stated. 90/10 rule? For it or against it, it doesn’t matter. When I draw a mediocre sheep tag with my 20+ points and turn it in knowing I have buddies with an army of guys and computer BOTs ready to pounce as soon as that tag drops! Especially as a nonresident with zero points??? Maybe he or she paid them 5-10k or more?? Who knows?? You’re not understanding it and stating something you’re either apart of or have zero understanding about.
Totally in this scheme I can’t even draw a cow elk tag here I have 4 points. I hate it more when 90/10 makes a unit get inflated deer numbers so they can issue 7 nores archery tags. Maybe the greedy pricks can wet there beaks on fcfs you saw it 172,000$ this is never going away. I’ve said it before not sure how I feel about sheep tags going no res but glad they went to hunters. 2020 saw five ram tags come back and no one hunted them.
 
The FCFS system seems to work fine. I saw a Ram tag available last season. I bought a buck tag using it. It’s a great way to get tags out to hunters that otherwise would have been unused. It also takes the buyers points away, increasing everyone else’s odds who have points in the draw the following year.

I think it’s a great system that offers more opportunity to hunters.
 
I love the fcfs. That's how I got meat in my freezer this year with a cow tag (resident). The bot issue is concerning. I hope they don't do away with it but just fix the issues with bots. Can't be that hard. People ***** cuz they can't be in front of a computer to snag one, but usually it's just laziness. These tags pop up ALL hours of the day. I'm hoping to get a buck tag this year if I strike out in the draw.
 
The FCFS system seems to work fine. I saw a Ram tag available last season. I bought a buck tag using it. It’s a great way to get tags out to hunters that otherwise would have been unused. It also takes the buyers points away, increasing everyone else’s odds who have points in the draw the following year.

I think it’s a great system that offers more opportunity to hunters.
Yup, I saw many great bull elk tags pop up I could have snagged it I wasn't in my blackout period.
 
Does the person who turns in the tag get his points back?
Yup.

I think people should lose all their points if they turn a tag back in unless it’s for medical or military deployments only. Too many people shopping tags. If you don’t want it don’t put in for it
I agree. I was shocked by how many primo tags were available in FCFS. Must have been top point holders shopping.

Luckily NV finally closed the loophole on group apps shenanigans.
 
Yup.


I agree. I was shocked by how many primo tags were available in FCFS. Must have been top point holders shopping.

Luckily NV finally closed the loophole on group apps shenanigans.
I'm confused. In almost every state if you draw a tag you can't get a refund unless it's a death, injury, or deployment. So are these people paying the NR tag fees and still returning them and eating that money??
 
I'm confused. In almost every state if you draw a tag you can't get a refund unless it's a death, injury, or deployment. So are these people paying the NR tag fees and still returning them and eating that money??

You can return and get a refund for death, medical, or military reason. If your a resident, heck even a NR and your a top point holder, doesn't cost much to pick your season vs paying $20-40k for a landowner tag. Last year wasn't a good growth season overall, so why not holdout no penalty really.
 
Are you guys saying that the FCFS system was gamed and it would work something like this;

1. Resident with 20+ points makes a deal to sell a draw tag to rich NR. NR has few to no points and their odds of drawing the tag would be otherwise minuscule to none. NR will reimburse the R tag holder an agreed to amount to cover the cost of the R tag plus a profit as determined by the R.
2. Resident draws the tag and then alerts the NR that the tag is about to be turned in.
3. NR with his buddies and their BOTS monitor the website and unfairly cheat the system to obtain the tag once it is dropped onto the FCFS system.
4. NR pays the R the agreed to amount for the tag.
5. R keeps his points plus one for the current draw year so he still has his points to run the same scam the following year and has pocketed an additional $5 or $10K for his efforts.

Is this what you guys are saying happened this year with the FCFS system?

Horniac
 
45:20 in: this guy has the right idea. Severe penalties for anyone caught using shenanigans. Hell, I think even if suspected of using shenanigans.
 
Are you guys saying that the FCFS system was gamed and it would work something like this;

1. Resident with 20+ points makes a deal to sell a draw tag to rich NR. NR has few to no points and their odds of drawing the tag would be otherwise minuscule to none. NR will reimburse the R tag holder an agreed to amount to cover the cost of the R tag plus a profit as determined by the R.
2. Resident draws the tag and then alerts the NR that the tag is about to be turned in.
3. NR with his buddies and their BOTS monitor the website and unfairly cheat the system to obtain the tag once it is dropped onto the FCFS system.
4. NR pays the R the agreed to amount for the tag.
5. R keeps his points plus one for the current draw year so he still has his points to run the same scam the following year and has pocketed an additional $5 or $10K for his efforts.

Is this what you guys are saying happened this year with the FCFS system?

Horniac

Possibly but more the bots which could sit with who knows, hundreds or thousands of sessions open to grab the tag.
 
Doesn't matter. They only have to suspect you using bots to take your tag back and ban you from hunting. They have no legal obligation to prove it.
They'll have a legal obligation when someone sues and NDOW will have to defend themselves in court. That becomes $$$ real quick, which most likely they'll just fold like a chair.
 
45:20 in: this guy has the right idea. Severe penalties for anyone caught using shenanigans. Hell, I think even if suspected of using shenanigans.
Pay close attention to that discusson at about 45:00. You will hear NDOW employee Kim Munoz state that she checked with NDOW’s counsel on the idea of increasing penalties. (Commissioner Mcninch's suggestion). And the determination was that any significant penalties for this activity would need to be supported by a regulation change in NAC. So, watch carefully for NAC changes – but unless that happens, let the games play on...
 
They'll have a legal obligation when someone sues and NDOW will have to defend themselves in court. That becomes $$$ real quick, which most likely they'll just fold like a chair.
All you have to do is put a disclaimer in before you use FCFS. I play online poker and they can take your funds at any time without recourse if they suspect you of using bots. Absolutely no proof needed because you agreed to T&C's before you signed up.
 
I'm confused. In almost every state if you draw a tag you can't get a refund unless it's a death, injury, or deployment. So are these people paying the NR tag fees and still returning them and eating that mone

Are you guys saying that the FCFS system was gamed and it would work something like this;

1. Resident with 20+ points makes a deal to sell a draw tag to rich NR. NR has few to no points and their odds of drawing the tag would be otherwise minuscule to none. NR will reimburse the R tag holder an agreed to amount to cover the cost of the R tag plus a profit as determined by the R.
2. Resident draws the tag and then alerts the NR that the tag is about to be turned in.
3. NR with his buddies and their BOTS monitor the website and unfairly cheat the system to obtain the tag once it is dropped onto the FCFS system.
4. NR pays the R the agreed to amount for the tag.
5. R keeps his points plus one for the current draw year so he still has his points to run the same scam the following year and has pocketed an additional $5 or $10K for his efforts.

Is this what you guys are saying happened this year with the FCFS system?

Horniac
Not sure if anyone pulled it off in 2021.

But would you like to take a ride in my new 2023 truck that I will have if they don't fix this for 2022?
 
Wow. I didn't know this was going on. I did a daily check on the web for turned in tags and not once saw a tag that I could have a chance at. I believe turned in tags should go to the alternate and if none added to next year's tags. Wow. Game and fish must be desperate for money
.
 
Not sure if anyone pulled it off in 2021.

But would you like to take a ride in my new 2023 truck that I will have if they don't fix this for 2022?
I'd like your sheep tag if you want to tell me when you're going to turn it in. Of course I won't pay for the tag but I might pay to find out which date and time you intend to return it....
 
I know a lot of people that got good FCFS tags the old fashioned way. Also, as I understand, since there are technically no eligible alternates or the tag is turned in within 2 weeks of the opener, the same residency requirements for leftover tags apply to FCFS (i.e., first in line, first served regardless of residency). I think FCFS is a creative way to issue tags that were previously unused. Considering its newness, it's not surprising there are a few wrinkles to iron out.
 
I'd like your sheep tag if you want to tell me when you're going to turn it in. Of course I won't pay for the tag but I might pay to find out which date and time you intend to return it....

Thank you customer #1. We can talk later about pricing - maybe you would prefer to pay the higher rate so that you will be the ONLY NR with knowledge of date/time of return. Especially valuable if your army of friends can team up with you for 24 hours. We can facetime while I am returning the tag so that you can be assured I followed through and know the exact time it was returned.

All of us who spent so much time on FCFS know how valuable it would be to know you are just inside the first 24 hours of the return of that ram tag.
 
... the same residency requirements for leftover tags apply to FCFS (i.e., first in line, first served regardless of residency)...

You are 100% correct! But why does Nevada choose to not apply their 10% NR cap for both the alternate process and FCFS?

NO other state sets their NR cap aside at such an important time. Typically, states will throw in their NR cap at every possible juncture - including using the cap and rounding in such a way that the NR cap can never even come close to being met - Much less exceeded. Unlike the way the NV 10% NR sheep cap was exceeded all the way up to 14%. NM is considering taking their sheep cap to 0% and they only gave 7 NR sheep tags to begin with. NV gives away many times that in raw numbers and let the NR % float all the way to 14%.

I don't want Nevada to be the most discriminatory state in the union - another state can have that dishonorable position. But I do think NV should at least try to keep up to protect resident interests.

Google "Resident Agnostic" and you get zero results. NDOW seems to have literally created the term.
 
I don't think any bots were being used but no doubt tag pimp offices dedicated their entire staff to sit around and run click farms pulling tags for everyone in the office.

The way FCFS works you can't forecast when a tag is going to drop. Once it gets turned in it could be hours or it could be days. Towards the seasons starting I'm sure that time compresses but that is unavoidable.

Not sure how they can regulate it beyond stopping one account from adding multiple tags in a given period of time. That will slow down the tag shoppers, but it's still going to be competitive.

That being said, the change in being able to keep your points when a tag is turned in should greatly cut down on the number of tags being turned back. A lot of residents have played this game for years which has resulted in the high number of tags being turned back. Losing your points though will put an end to that game.
 
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looks to me like residents need to sit up straight when watching the computer......
Thank you customer #1. We can talk later about pricing - maybe you would prefer to pay the higher rate so that you will be the ONLY NR with knowledge of date/time of return. Especially valuable if your army of friends can team up with you for 24 hours. We can facetime while I am returning the tag so that you can be assured I followed through and know the exact time it was returned.

All of us who spent so much time on FCFS know how valuable it would be to know you are just inside the first 24 hours of the return of that ram tag.
Dude seriously your conspiracy theories and whining are exhausting. Everyone here and your wife if your married cannot wait for fcfs to come back around so you have something to occupy your pea sized brain
 
I know a lot of people that got good FCFS tags the old fashioned way. Also, as I understand, since there are technically no eligible alternates or the tag is turned in within 2 weeks of the opener, the same residency requirements for leftover tags apply to FCFS (i.e., first in line, first served regardless of residency). I think FCFS is a creative way to issue tags that were previously unused. Considering its newness, it's not surprising there are a few wrinkles to iron out.
I got 2 tags, only filled one unfortunately (even though I spent about 7 days in the field trying on the failed tag). One was an Antelope tag up north.

Didn't use bots. Had other tags in the cart as well that I decided to give up.

I had no issue with it lol Passed on a couple bull Elk tags as I didn't want to go that far north. Wish I would've scored a cow tag in 22/23 but I didnt.
 
FCFS is a great process in theory and I for one LOVE IT!! but I know for a fact 100% it is not conducted fairly and there are major loopholes. Several reached out to Jack Robb to no avail or reasonable response. He knows about the loopholes. Some of you might have gotten lucky and scooped up a tag that other users using the loopholes didn’t want and trust that it’s possible. WHY WOULD ANYONE POST ANYTHING LIKE THIS UNLESS IT WAS IN EVERYONES BEST INTEREST? I think what he’s doing is right and trying to stop loopholes that allow certain people to profit BIG TIME! You all that are attacking jpd010 might not know the whole story. What he is bringing to everyones attention is in EVERYONES best interest, especially the residents. Yes mediocre sheep tags will be drawn by TOP Teir point holders and returned in the last days and those people using the loopholes will be ready and you’ll have zero chance.
 
I would still like to know how these people got to see multiple opportunities to grab a tag. I was on the wed site 3-4 time a day at different times and never saw one. Must be real unlucky.
 
I would still like to know how these people got to see multiple opportunities to grab a tag. I was on the wed site 3-4 time a day at different times and never saw one. Must be real unlucky.

All one had to do was open 20 browsers on 1-2 screens and space them out over the 35 second Kalkomey refresh cycle. It should make you angry that Kalkomey kept a %/commission on that $173K in sales and left open such an amateur loophole. That loophole should be closed for 2022 if they go to “real time refresh” instead of 35 seconds. But that guy in Cedar City with a bot will still beat you most of the time.

As a resident, you should be even more angered that NDOW gave away 75% of FCFS ram tags and 55 % of FCFS bull tags to NRs.

Email [email protected] to ask for 10% NR cap on FCFS. Tell them you are a resident and use your Kalkomey name/email so they can verify.
 
All one had to do was open 20 browsers on 1-2 screens and space them out over the 35 second Kalkomey refresh cycle. It should make you angry that Kalkomey kept a %/commission on that $173K in sales and left open such an amateur loophole. That loophole should be closed for 2022 if they go to “real time refresh” instead of 35 seconds. But that guy in Cedar City with a bot will still beat you most of the time.

As a resident, you should be even more angered that NDOW gave away 75% of FCFS ram tags and 55 % of FCFS bull tags to NRs.

Email [email protected] to ask for 10% NR cap on FCFS. Tell them you are a resident and use your Kalkomey name/email so they can verify.

There is a big difference with using a bot and having 35 screens open to take advantage of the refresh.

But I am still puzzled that you think a resident should be more upset that a non resident drew a tag over a resident with a bot. I mean if a resident drew the tag, took money from a non resident and then gamed the system with a known bot, that is wrong and the easiest way to break that up would be to revoke hunting privileges for both the resident and the nonresident.

I honestly think the resident/non resident battles aren't good long term for hunting.
 
I for one couldn’t care less if nonresidents got 5 of 7 FCFS ram tags (and I am a resident). What I do care about is groups/businesses gaming the system by using bots/software automations to grab tags that the average guy should have a shot at. And it’s disturbing to think (realize) that NDOW is incapable or unwilling (not really surprising though) to create or fix the system so that cheating is not possible.

Btw, I saw dozens of tags come up last fall. I put several in my cart and decided I didn’t want them. Did end up snagging a ewe sheep tag though for my son and had a fantastic hunt.
 
uh....this is all very interesting, but, does any one actually know someone that got a fcfs tag by way of a BOT??
 
I for one couldn’t care less if nonresidents got 5 of 7 FCFS ram tags (and I am a resident). What I do care about is groups/businesses gaming the system by using bots/software automations to grab tags that the average guy should have a shot at. And it’s disturbing to think (realize) that NDOW is incapable or unwilling (not really surprising though) to create or fix the system so that cheating is not possible.

Btw, I saw dozens of tags come up last fall. I put several in my cart and decided I didn’t want them. Did end up snagging a ewe sheep tag though for my son and had a fantastic hunt.
Are you a BOT?
 
uh....this is all very interesting, but, does any one actually know someone that got a fcfs tag by way of a BOT??

Ahh, the million dollar question.

I will make 4 points and then let the name calling continue.

1. Jack Robb called each of the 7 guys that sniped ram tags on FCFS to “see how it went” (see video). Jack is a grand investigator and it is a practical impossibility that any of those seven people would have successfully lied to Jack on the telephone.


2. Contracting to build a shopping bot via Upwork dot com (or similar) can cost in the neighborhood of $1000. Maybe a little more if you want to support a Ukranian developer over the Asian developer. This cost estimate is based on Xbox and Nike/shoe shopping bot message boards (those guys have forum just like this one and also do a lot of name calling). Cost is more for a complicated bot that can solve a CAPTCHA. FCFS doesn’t even use the CAPTCHA (even MM uses CAPTCHA!), so maybe a FCFS bot would be cheaper. Most of us who apply in every/most western state have final true out of pocket costs around $5,000 (estimated). It would be a financial impossibility that any person with $5,000 annually to spend on non-resident applications would ever come up with another $1,000 for a bot so that he could cross off his desert BHS from his slam. After all, it will be a mid-tier NV unit as no Res will ever return a 263/253/268 tag to FCFS. I know when I’m done applying in May, I am completely out of money and have to borrow lunch money from my son.

3. Here is the story everyone will call BS – and I won’t argue. Fall, 2021 – I was discussing FCFS with a fairly sophisticated hunter contact at an archery elk camp we both crossed. Not a close buddy – just a contact. He said he was pondering using the southern Utah contractor to get a FCFS tag or two. And he said he had seen video via Whatsapp of the Bot in action from the guy he would use. Cost was $500. At the time I was having very good luck with “multiple browsers” (thanks Kalkomey for being amateurs), so I passed on investigating this further. I have been casually trying to get copy of video or a pic but I have been unsuccessful. And yes, even if a bot user is an NR, they can still sub-contract out the use of that bot to residents. And yes, a resident is just as likely to build their own bot as an NR. Dec, 2021 – I saw a 380+ bull (late-222) on FB harvested by this contact. Yes, maybe he got that tag using the “multiple browser” trick and not a Bot. My belief is that the guys with bots would largely reserve bot use for keyword “ram” and not risk a suspicious activity suspension on bull tags or less. Just a hunch.

4. Personally, I would like to see FCFS shut down completely over the BOT issue alone. But I know many residents love FCFS so I am asking fellow Nevadans that they at least support enforcing the 10% NR cap to salvage what we can.

Email [email protected] to ask for 10% NR cap on FCFS! Stress that you are a resident and use your Kalkomey name/email so they can verify your residency. If you liked FCFS in 2021, you will like it even more in 2022 when 90/10 is being respected.
 
maybe...maybe not. I know 4 people that got FCFS tags....1 ram, 2 buck and 1 bull....no BOT involved...

How many total fcfs tags were picked up?
 
How many total fcfs tags were picked up?

987 tags for $173K in double sales. The majority of that, $126K from NRs. Thank you to NRs for that.

I am happy that those tags got hunted and happy NDOW got a budget bump largely on the back of NRs.

Just not happy that it was essentially an OTC tag gravy train for NRs.

I am happy to support leaving this hole in the NV 90/10 logic if other states will open up matching holes in their 90/10 logic for me to snipe tags.

Hands down, NV FCFS in 2021 was the best deal trophy NR hunting has seen in many years.
 
987 tags for $173K in double sales. The majority of that, $126K from NRs. Thank you to NRs for that.

I am happy that those tags got hunted and happy NDOW got a budget bump largely on the back of NRs.

Just not happy that it was essentially an OTC tag gravy train for NRs.

I am happy to support leaving this hole in the NV 90/10 logic if other states will open up matching holes in their 90/10 logic for me to snipe tags.

Hands down, NV FCFS in 2021 was the best deal trophy NR hunting has seen in many years.
Here’s the data on the FCFS program from Kalkomey.

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C5A46515-3D3D-4C1C-9BF0-C1C39754D7BB.png


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Can I ask why you aren't upset with the 7 residents that turned in the tags? I mean if they turned them in sooner wouldnt they have gone to the alternate? I just have a hard time understanding why you are so upset that non residents got 5 tags, everyone had an equal shot at them.

I do think actions need to be taken to avoid bots and it honestly wouldn't be too hard.

Big picture, I think Nevada deserves credit, they had people turning in tags and not getting hunted. They came up with a solution to try to get those tags in the hands of hunters. We can debate how they go about doing it or make recommendations but in my opinion they really are trying to meet the needs of hunters.
 
And here’s the link to the January 28,2022 NDOW Commission meeting. The FCFS discussion starts at about 2:05:00

 
All one had to do was open 20 browsers on 1-2 screens and space them out over the 35 second Kalkomey refresh cycle. It should make you angry that Kalkomey kept a %/commission on that $173K in sales and left open such an amateur loophole. That loophole should be closed for 2022 if they go to “real time refresh” instead of 35 seconds. But that guy in Cedar City with a bot will still beat you most of the time.

As a resident, you should be even more angered that NDOW gave away 75% of FCFS ram tags and 55 % of FCFS bull tags to NRs.

Email [email protected] to ask for 10% NR cap on FCFS. Tell them you are a resident and use your Kalkomey name/email so they can verify.
I never used more than 1 browser. When we would watch TV or while the GF was working from home, we keep the ipad up and going.
 
Can I ask why you aren't upset with the 7 residents that turned in the tags? I mean if they turned them in sooner wouldnt they have gone to the alternate?

Great question!



The 90/10 violation by FCFS is magnified in importance because of the NDOW overly/inappropriately generous return policy. Residents abuse the return policy with regularity. I am not angered at the resident who took advantage of his “right” to return, so much as at the agency (NDOW) that created this absurdity.



Resident Agnostic FCFS (violating 90/10) is only so damaging to the future resident tags because of the way it dovetails with the overly generous return policy. It creates the situation where residents return tags at much higher rates than NR (because they can). And then NR sniping tags at higher rates than residents (because they’re smart).



But does all of this mean that NV residents don’t deserve 90/10 to be enforced at FCFS? I don’t think so. I think NDOW can choose to retain the overly generous return policy as long as they enforce 90/10 for all re-issued tags, FCFS or “eligible alternate”.



And NO, even if the resident had turned his tag back in July (when he even gets his $120 back) – that does NOT mean that the tag would go to the “eligible alternate” call list. This is because of a third absurd NDOW policy where they define “eligible alternate” as someone who had that tag in position 1 on their application. People who had those mid-tier tags in positions 2-5 will NEVER receive a phone call as they are not defined as eligible alternates. VERY FEW people put mid-tier tags in position 1. NO ONE who understands the NV draw/processing order should EVER do so because NV looks at every choice/position before moving to next person’s application. So, only premium units should be in positions #1 and #2 (generally agreed as 263,253,268 or so). Only then should one move down to worse tags like the ones that went to FCFS in 2021. So, even when > 14 days remain before season, NDOW might only have a handful of position #1 “eligible alternates” to call before sending that tag to FCFS. This inappropriately narrow definition of “eligible alternate” is part of the larger fix to all of this.

A NR absolutely should have an "equal shot" at them, but only up to the 10% cap.

Are you a NV resident and upset by this? Email [email protected]
 
So how about cutting all this crap and stop all the game playing!
You draw the tag it’s yours Res or Non res..
No more playing games and turning tags back in for any reason!!!It’s all a total abuse of the system whether you agree with the their system or not.
It’s a joke!
 
What in the world is a bot? I got 3 FCFS tags by being super patient(got real old) but it was worth it. I don’t understand how people think everyone else is cheating lol. Also had one of those ewe tags in my cart but didn’t end up buying cuz it was a new hunt for 2021 in 162. So that would have been 4.
 
I never used more than 1 browser.

If it’s any consolation, you were only slightly slower at finding out than NDOW and Kalkomey and they built the FCFS software.

YMMV – but about 20 browser sessions was the sweet spot for my person, PC/power and screen size. I would have told you, but the 2021 FCFS “fight club rule” would have meant that I needed to kill you if I told you.

If you want to be a tech hero – you can be the one to go to NDOW and Kalkomey now and show them what a CAPTCHA is. Pretty sure that will blow their minds.
 
A truly premium tag will never fall to FCFS until 14 days prior. But see NDOW’s messy language in various documents/FAQs about whether that is calendar days or business days. They have used “business days” in some places, “calendar days” in other places. Yet another NDOW mess.

But a mid-tier tag could fall to FCFS at any time – starting in July. This is because of the NDOW error I explained above – where they only call position #1 “eligible alternates”. Not position #2-5 eligible alternates.

Sorry if everyone is having a hard time keeping track of all the NDOW and Kalkomey errors. I know the list is getting pretty long.

Almost makes you think they could use better management.
 
A truly premium tag will never fall to FCFS until 14 days prior. But see NDOW’s messy language in various documents/FAQs about whether that is calendar days or business days. They have used “business days” in some places, “calendar days” in other places. Yet another NDOW mess.

But a mid-tier tag could fall to FCFS at any time – starting in July. This is because of the NDOW error I explained above – where they only call position #1 “eligible alternates”. Not position #2-5 eligible alternates.

Sorry if everyone is having a hard time keeping track of all the NDOW and Kalkomey errors. I know the list is getting pretty long.

Almost makes you think they could use better management.
It's trouble makers like you that will end FCFS....
 
987 tags for $173K in double sales. The majority of that, $126K from NRs. Thank you to NRs for that.

I am happy that those tags got hunted and happy NDOW got a budget bump largely on the back of NRs.

Just not happy that it was essentially an OTC tag gravy train for NRs.

I am happy to support leaving this hole in the NV 90/10 logic if other states will open up matching holes in their 90/10 logic for me to snipe tags.

Hands down, NV FCFS in 2021 was the best deal trophy NR hunting has seen in many years.

You seem really mad you can't draw a tag that you want? Nothing they will do will stop bots. I know someone who snipes concert tickets, it's a huge business, nothing stops them.

FCFS is a fantastic system all around, not perfect but dang it definitely gets tags sold. If your so mad about returned tags, lobby NDOW to stop allowing top point holders to shop animals every year with no consequences.

I personally had 3 tags in my cart, decided not to get anything of them, including 2 elk tags. I barely even put any effort in, just had a browser open sometimes. Ultimately dates didn't work for me after a quick search on them.
 
Can I ask why you aren't upset with the 7 residents that turned in the tags? I mean if they turned them in sooner wouldnt they have gone to the alternate? I just have a hard time understanding why you are so upset that non residents got 5 tags, everyone had an equal shot at them.

I do think actions need to be taken to avoid bots and it honestly wouldn't be too hard.

Big picture, I think Nevada deserves credit, they had people turning in tags and not getting hunted. They came up with a solution to try to get those tags in the hands of hunters. We can debate how they go about doing it or make recommendations but in my opinion they really are trying to meet the needs of hunters.
It’s apart of the game!! A resident with 20+ points draws a mediocre sheep tag OR DEER OR ELK? Whatever!! and returns it in the time frame of the FCFS rules. A BOT or several BOTS and 10-15 guys with multiple browsers open ALL logged into the SAME account sit on the kalkomey website for the 24hr rule and BOOM! One of the payed customers of these payed tag application company’s! One of them got that tag. You had ZERO chance. It’s BS. I’m done explaining it. GOODLUCK
First come first sever. Don’t hate players. Hate the game.
 
Their stated goal with this program was getting tags into hunters hands. In that respect, it was a success. No doubt there are changes that should be made to make things more secure/fair. They are making some of those changes this year. A few people will alway find some way to game any system.

Btw, they only identified/suspended 10 accounts last year for suspicious activity. Makes you wonder how many cheated and grabbed one bull or ram tag and weren’t identified…
 
Personally I like the FCFS system. I didn’t get a tag but saw a few pop up here and there.

All-in-all a good system IMO which can be improved to prevent some of the gaming that apparently went on last year. I didn’t recall any prohibition on the use of bots or the maximum # of browser windows an applicant could have open to try for a tag. More power to the people that are that tech savy to write/buy a bot or have enough good buddies that will spend the time to sit in front of their computer to snatch a tag for them.

If the bots are not malicious or considered criminal how do you prevent their use or slow them down other than by Kalkomey using CAPTCHA? They are just running on the applicant‘s computer correct? Not illegal or is it? It’s just like applicant A paying more for a faster computer and faster internet speed than applicant B so A gets the tag over B.

Now if guys with high points are purposely drawing the tag, returning them and getting their points back, and then working with another person to get them that tag, then that’s BS. Even worse if they are making money off the tag return and not just trying to help a buddy or family member secure a tag. Almost sounds like it could be a cybercriminal conspiracy or something?

Eliminating the ability to return the tag except for a severe medical condition, death in the family, etc. might be a solution to the latter scenario...

Horniac
 
I have been FAR too blessed by NR draws across the west against strict 90/10 and 94/6 discrimination. I am a traveling NR hunter. I even apply for some of the 97/3 beat-down pronghorn discrimination in Oregon. I love those states and residents and submit to their legitimate right to discriminate against me.

But if our “soft” Nevada 10% NR cap was FULLY met in our draw, and there are literally THOUSANDS of residents with that EXACT TAG in position 2-5 on their apps (and there were THOUSANDS here). Then why would any fair minded traveling NR hunter think it is reasonable to offer that tag to a NR on FCFS at the same time that those same thousands of residents have their very first chance at it? Those residents literally applied for that very tag (albeit not in position #1). Don’t at least those "non-eligible alternate" residents deserve at least a 5 second head start against the NR? Would you concede a 24 hour head-start considering your states (generally) offer them nothing along these same lines? (possible exception: CO)

None of the good people here would go to their own game agency and ask for the raw deal I just described.

Wound you concede that after NRs already got 10%, that a NR taking the next 72% of the ram tags and the next 55% of the bull elk tags is generally not in line with the quid-pro-quo system that our respective states have informally worked out in good faith over the last 40 years?

I placed this in the NEVADA forum primarily as a PSA for NV Residents: Residents: if this upsets you, please email [email protected] and ask for 10% NR cap on FCFS. Tell them you are a resident and use your Kalkomey name/email so they can verify your residency.
 
I have been FAR too blessed by NR draws across the west against strict 90/10 and 94/6 discrimination. I am a traveling NR hunter. I even apply for some of the 97/3 beat-down pronghorn discrimination in Oregon. I love those states and residents and submit to their legitimate right to discriminate against me.

But if our “soft” Nevada 10% NR cap was FULLY met in our draw, and there are literally THOUSANDS of residents with that EXACT TAG in position 2-5 on their apps (and there were THOUSANDS here). Then why would any fair minded traveling NR hunter think it is reasonable to offer that tag to a NR on FCFS at the same time that those same thousands of residents have their very first chance at it? Those residents literally applied for that very tag (albeit not in position #1). Don’t at least those "non-eligible alternate" residents deserve at least a 5 second head start against the NR? Would you concede a 24 hour head-start considering your states (generally) offer them nothing along these same lines? (possible exception: CO)

None of the good people here would go to their own game agency and ask for the raw deal I just described.

Wound you concede that after NRs already got 10%, that a NR taking the next 72% of the ram tags and the next 55% of the bull elk tags is generally not in line with the quid-pro-quo system that our respective states have informally worked out in good faith over the last 40 years?

I placed this in the NEVADA forum primarily as a PSA for NV Residents: Residents: if this upsets you, please email [email protected] and ask for 10% NR cap on FCFS. Tell them you are a resident and use your Kalkomey name/email so they can verify your residency.
You still won't get the tag you want. Have you seen how many residents apply yearly? R are returning tags at top points intentionally shopping around. Stop that, and most of the tags won't be returned. Look at the how many were returned, almost equal to years prior while group app loophole was in play, says everything.
 
I would still like to know how these people got to see multiple opportunities to grab a tag. I was on the wed site 3-4 time a day at different times and never saw one. Must be real unlucky.
I only used one browser and saw multiple tags pop up. Now that I know about using multiple browsers, I hope to see more :)
 
Until they change the waiting periods for elk/antelope for residents I'm all for screwing over non residents. It's complete b.s. a resident has to wait 7 years between elk tags and 3 years for pronghorn (which equates to longer since you can't accrue points until wait period is over).
Non residents have it good imo when residents literally still have to draw for every big game tag out there.
 
This thread is proof that no matter what NDOW does, many of you will still not be happy. Nonresidents have their own separate quota, so they aren't competing with residents for tags in the main draw or the second draw. As far as FCFS goes, anyone can pick one up. Of the 987 FCFS tags that were issued last year, 73% went to residents (see Diablo's post above). Resident hunters held over 750 of those tags and many of those guys and gals got to go hunting but would have otherwise stayed home in previous years. Could FCFS be improved? Sure. Go to a CAB meeting or a Commission meeting and ask for Choice 1-5 to be considered for the alternate list or ask that residency requirements be applied to FCFS. But many of you can't see the forest through the trees. You'd rather just jump on message boards and b*t$c.
 
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So the requirements for returning a tag is different for residents versus non-residents? Definitely a few things to iron out but overall FCFS seemed to be a success.

I know the horse is dead but I’d like to beat on it a bit :giggle:… Most residents I talked to enjoyed the program. The ones who bitched about it were unhappy because either they didn’t have the time to sit on the site like others could, or because too many tags were given to non-residents.

I agree with the 90/10 cap. Residents get their 90 in the main draw. Non-residents get their 10… sometimes. I’ve seen some quotas as low as 1%. Whatever the case, returned tags are essentially “passed down”. Residents complaining about non-residents getting more than their fair share (10%) should be more upset with the volume of residents who are returning tags in the first place. If they can’t hunt, then what the hell difference does it make in who gets their returned tag? Residents have already had their 90 preference in the main draw. They now have the same chance as anyone else to grab a returned tag.

FWIW, I am a non-resident. I lived in NV for years. If my home state had the same fcfs program I’d have the same opinion. We get preference in main draw. If tags are returned, then anyone should have a crack at them.

I will admit that I was on the fcfs site more than I should have been (my wife had to point that out, btw :ROFLMAO:). On one browser, I saw probably dozens of tags come out. Many other friends/family had the same experience. Most of the time I was too late to ‘add to cart’. I was able to grab a cow elk tag in December, which I was extremely grateful for, as it was the only animal I could put in the freezer.

I personally hope the only improvements made are tag return requirements and having the hunt unit identified once tag has been added to cart. Other than that, I believe most folks are happy and look forward to playing the fcfs game again here soon.
 
Of the roughly 2,000 FCFS tags that were issued last year, 73% went to residents (see Diablo's post above). That means over 1,400 more residents went hunting last year who would have otherwise stayed home in previous years.
Total was 987 tags purchased by a total of 850 hunters. Only 757 tags were purchased by residents. And some bought up to three. So less than 757 resident hunters. I’m just correcting the numbers not disagreeing with your main points.
 
Total was 987 tags purchased by a total of 850 hunters. Only 757 tags were purchased by residents. And some bought up to three. So less than 757 resident hunters. I’m just correcting the numbers not disagreeing with your main points.
That's a good fact check! Not sure where I pulled the 2,000 # from but I updated my post to be correct.
 
Tony Wasley did his best to massage the numbers. 85% of FCFS tags went to residents? Sure, but residents got less than 50% of quality tags on FCFS.

If 90/10 had been respected nearly 100% of all those tags would have went to residents.

No other state neglects their 90/10.

Tony.jpg
 
Tony Wasley did his best to massage the numbers. 85% of FCFS tags went to residents? Sure, but residents got less than 50% of quality tags on FCFS.

If 90/10 had been respected nearly 100% of all those tags would have went to residents.

No other state neglects their 90/10.

View attachment 72009
Not true! Colorado’s reissue is agnostic to residency. And NR’s get waaaay more than 10% of the tags here.
 
Not true! Colorado’s reissue is agnostic to residency. And NR’s get waaaay more than 10% of the tags here.
Apologies - you are correct that there is a residency agnostic component to some Colorado reissued tags. But that is for lower quality tags that go directly to that list, correct? For CO MSG, or even a high quality elk tag (comparable to a NV elk tag), my understanding is that Colorado strictly adheres to residency specificity.

So, a reissued ram tag would definitely not have ever converted from RES to NR in Colorado, correct?

Please correct me if I have that wrong.
 
Apologies - you are correct that there is a residency agnostic component to some Colorado reissued tags. But that is for lower quality tags that go directly to that list, correct? For CO MSG, or even a high quality elk tag (comparable to a NV elk tag), my understanding is that Colorado strictly adheres to residency specificity.

So, a reissued ram tag would definitely not have ever converted from RES to NR in Colorado, correct?

Please correct me if I have that wrong.
I posted the question below in the other thread yesterday. Maybe you missed it?

"I've spent the last 1/2 hr. trying to find the EXACT wording of Nevada's 10% NR law/rule. Do you per chance have a copy that you can copy/paste here?"
 
Apologies - you are correct that there is a residency agnostic component to some Colorado reissued tags. But that is for lower quality tags that go directly to that list, correct? For CO MSG, or even a high quality elk tag (comparable to a NV elk tag), my understanding is that Colorado strictly adheres to residency specificity.

So, a reissued ram tag would definitely not have ever converted from RES to NR in Colorado, correct?

Please correct me if I have that wrong.

For tags 5+ pts they go to the first 5 people in line (res or nonres), if they get no takers that want to burn their points for the tag on typically short notice it goes on the list and anybody can buy it. Ram tags and cow moose tags have hit the list in the past couple years. I don't know who ended up with most of them.
 
For tags 5+ pts they go to the first 5 people in line (res or nonres), if they get no takers that want to burn their points for the tag on typically short notice it goes on the list and anybody can buy it. Ram tags and cow moose tags have hit the list in the past couple years. I don't know who ended up with most of them.
No moose tags in NV
 
"I've spent the last 1/2 hr. trying to find the EXACT wording of Nevada's 10% NR law/rule. Do you per chance have a copy that you can copy/paste here?"

Sorry, sometimes very intelligent questions like that one are easily missed in the sea of capital letters and odd/missing punctuation.

Answer: No.

noem.jpg
 
so...basically....your argument is irrelevant...and a waste of time
I have never stated that NDOW or the NV Wildlife Commissioners were violating NRS or NAC or that they were even violating their own policy.

They are violating common sense and basic notions of fairness.

See above from MrDoe about the very reasonable way that the good folks at CPW have found to handle CO Leftover/Reissue for 5+ pt tags. Contact the very next 5 people in the draw line. If they don't take it, only then send it to the electronic, agnostic first come software. That is what it looks like when an agency understands that how you need to treat Ram and Premium Bull tags can/should be different than how you treat cow/raghorn tags.

Kudos to Colorado also for their "Queue it" vendor and their anti-bot technology that frustrates so many Coloradans every August (flipping bridges/bicycles). Kalkomey/NDOW haven't even yet heard about 1st generation CAPTCHA. MonsterMuleys has CAPTCHA - maybe founder can show them how cheap it is.
 
I thought is was very fair to NR's.....and common sense.....10x revenue for a lot of tags a resident didn't want....
 
“I have never stated that NDOW or the NV Wildlife Commissioners were violating NRS or NAC or that they were even violating their own policy.”

Actually you did;

Post #1: “Note; 5 of those 7 ram tags were obtained by NRs in violation of 90/10 cap.”

Post #9: “But they should be reissued in accordance with 10% NR cap.”

Post #37: “But why does Nevada choose to not apply their 10% NR cap for both the alternate process and FCFS?

NO other state sets their NR cap aside at such an important time. Typically, states will throw in their NR cap at every possible juncture - including using the cap and rounding in such a way that the NR cap can never even come close to being met - Much less exceeded. Unlike the way the NV 10% NR sheep cap was exceeded all the way up to 14%. NM is considering taking their sheep cap to 0% and they only gave 7 NR sheep tags to begin with. NV gives away many times that in raw numbers and let the NR % float all the way to 14%.”

Post #58 one of many: “The 90/10 violation by FCFS is magnified in importance because of the NDOW overly/inappropriately generous return policy”

Post #71: But if our “soft” Nevada 10% NR cap was FULLY met in our draw, and…”

Post #80: “If 90/10 had been respected nearly 100% of all those tags would have went to residents.”

You have lost a lot of credibility on this issue at least with me…

Horniac
 
I have never stated that NDOW or the NV Wildlife Commissioners were violating NRS or NAC or that they were even violating their own policy.

They are violating common sense and basic notions of fairness.
I won't duplicate the other post that shows that's not what you have been saying. :rolleyes:

AZ has had a 90/10 rule for a long time that allows NRs to get UP to 10% during the DRAWINGS. There is no such limitation on general OTC permits or FCFS leftovers once the drawings are done. That information is written into law/rule.

I sent an email to an old I&E acquaintance of mine at NDOW to see what he says about it.
 
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I dont want to get to deep in the fray BUT
I am a NV res.
If the bot is a problem I would hope that gets fixed/addressed immediately.
I would hope that would level the playing field for Res and the honest Non Res alike.
Also as a Res I would like to have the 90/10 rule, but it does say first come first serve.
 
I won't duplicate the other post that shows that's not what you have been saying. :rolleyes:

AZ has had a 90/10 rule for a long time that allows NRs to get UP to 10% during the DRAWINGS. There is no such limitation on general OTC permits or FCFS leftovers once the drawings are done. That information is written into law/rule.

I sent an email to an old I&E acquaintance of mine at NDOW to see what he says about it.

The AZ 90/10 doesn't fully apply, see lifetime license.
 
If the BOT theory turns out to be accurate then it definitely needs to be fixed. If not, don't change anything. Seems like a good system to me even though I didn't get a tag.
 

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