only thing that scares me....

[northgallatin]

I am not AS concerned about the 2nd as some are....I am not as concerned about the tax system as some are....I am very concerned about the UN and the EU. I believe that there are those in the democratic party who would want us to become a one world govt. I would not go that far, but i really don't care if the world approves of Obama, as long as he fights for us. So far the UN and the EU have done nothing to make me want to submit to them. and I am concerned that we would ask permission for things too much instead of leading. I am also a little worried about the constitution being trumped by a UN law...I will say this though, as a christian it is more troubling to me that we pick and choose from the scrpiture to prove our point... and in the process we #iss off and turn off half the population. The bible is clear on a lot of things both ways, and it does say submit and pray for the ruler of your land..... Hope if you are a christian you would have some self denial like I have had to do through this whole process.... Just venting a little as I have been a Guest to the site for a while.

 

[TheSwede]

I did that and I ended up voting for Super Dale.

--I'm looking for a man... who calls himself Bucho! That's all! And you had to do it, the hard way!--

 

[huntindude]

gallatin, if more religious people were like you I wouldn't have to argue with them so much. you don't sound like a fanatic, refreshing.

On the subject on dems and world affairs have you ever looked into Bush sr's world order? more scary than the dems attempts to not be hated by the rest of the world by far.

We have no choice but to work with the UN and the EU, we don't have to cower but we have to get along this is the reality of today. Russia doesn't care for us at all, China doesn't care for us but they like loaning us the money to buy their crap. in time the alliance between Russia and China will become stonger, Russia has the natural resources and China has the manufacturing ability , when China and Russia don't need us we're screwed. if we're in poor standing with the rest of the world we're toast. all things change, the sleeping giant is awake and we're becoming a smaller player in the world, call it a negative way of looking at things if you wish but I think being realistic is key to survival, we can't afford to go it alone.

 

[D13er]

without a doubt the dems aren't alone in their vision of one world government....it came right out of bush sr's mouth.


JB

 

[AZStickman]

"Russia has the natural resources and China has the manufacturing ability , when China and Russia don't need us we're screwed."

With most of the Chinas exports going to the US I believe they are going to need us for a while. Here's the breakdown of the top 7 countries China exports to.$'s are in billions.... Terry

United States = $162.9
Hong Kong = $124.5
Japan = $84
South Korea = $35.1
Germany = $32.5
Netherlands = $25.9
United Kingdom = $19
Singapore = $16.6
Taiwan = $16.6
Russia = $13.2

On the other hand if China did stop manufacturing for the US and US companies had to step up to fill the gap,a majority of the products being manufactured in China are manufactured by American companies, our economy would see a much needed boost with jobs that were lost to China returning.

Then there's the issue of how China is killing their environment with unregulated industries polluting their air, water and land. They can't sustain this growth or even support the current production without some major regulatory changes that are not happening right now...... Terry

 

[huntindude]

If China turned it's nation along with everyone in it into a dead zone I'd be fine with that, but you're right they're going to have to give the environment some consideration sooner or later and that will take away some of their advantage.

What your figures don't show is how much money we borrow from the Chinese, we don't need their crap as bad as we need the cash. we won't do business with Cuba but we can't get enough poison food and cheap crap from China, this is insane, Cuba is no threat to us at all and China is our greatest long term threat and a communist super power. we'll always have our nukes but in time the Russia and China military machine will leave us on the sideline unless we're willing to use those nukes. like I said in todays world we need friends more than ever , McCain would have been a disaster in this effort since he thinks we can still rule the world. Iraq should be proof we can't bomb our way to our vision of world order.

 

[piper]

Hong Kong is the second biggest importer of Chinese goods in the world? I find that a strange statistic, does anyone else?

 

[opbuckslayer]

That would never happen with the jobs because we couldn't do it cheap enough. Us greedy americans want our "crap" cheap but still make good wages and benefits. Companies couldn't sell anything at the Walmart. So as much as it pains me to say i agree with hd it's a world economy and we better start strokin the rest of the world.

 

[AZStickman]

"What your figures don't show is how much money we borrow from the Chinese, we don't need their crap as bad as we need the cash."

The only reason we need their cash is because we've let our manufacturing jobs leave the country creating a huge trade deficit. That's also why they have the cash to lend. When the playing field is leveled,however that may be acomplished, and manufacturing capacity in our own country is built back up, we won't need either their crap or money.... Terry

 

[piper]

we can't compete in the world market in many areas, we have too many people that expect and demand to make money off having money, they have gotten all their going to be able to get out of the working class, something else is going to have to give

 

[NeMont]

>we can't compete in the world
>market in many areas, we
>have too many people that
>expect and demand to make
>money off having money, they
>have gotten all their going
>to be able to get
>out of the working class,
>something else is going to
>have to give

Piper,

I don't understand what you mean with this post. People with money have been demanding they make money off their money since two caveman agreed shiny rocks somehow had value. Please explain

Nemont

 

[northgallatin]

I think what he is saying is that we have become a society where the majority are comsumers instead of producers.

 

[piper]

Its a matter of how much, as with all things there is the right balance, a large percent of fortune 500 companys are in health care related fields, since money doesn't grow on trees they get their fortunes from people who use health care, health Insurance ect. when General motors sells an automobile the cost to manufacture that vehicle on average includes $1600.00 a vehicle for health care costs for the labor, a comparable vehicle made in Korea has about $400.00 in those costs, these are old figures so its more now on both accounts, thats an example of why its hard to compete in the world market, if Americans have high taxes, high rent, interest payments or living expenses,it makes those that are on the receiving end of the transaction well off but those that work and have to pay the high costs then require more pay and the employers then have to pass the costs on and sometimes that makes the companys uncompetetive, now since you know this stuff already why don't you tell me why im wrong?

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-08 AT 04:43PM (MST)[p]I don't believe you are wrong on the cost of Health Care, I disagree with you on how to "fix" the problem.

If you are saying that our high cost of doing business makes us less competitive then I agree. I would ask you what contributes the most to the high cost of doing business here in the U.S.? Corporations that have to answer to shareholder or the weight of government regulations along with our current tax structure?

Why does Health Care cost so much in the U.S.? Explain how making Health Insurance Universal in the U.S. will reduce the costs? Do you believe that Americans will be willing to have their health care restricted in any way at all? If you are concerned about high taxes, how much will taxes have to rise in order to pay for the health care fix?

Using your own logic on employers having to pass the cost on how does requiring them to either buy health insurance or be fined help reduce any costs. Obama's plan requires that sort of forced participation. If an employer isn't providing benefits now, especially small employers, what will happen to their cost of doing business when they are forced to buy benefits? Who ultimately bears the cost? Have you compared what wages are being paid in Korea to those being paid in the U.S. for autoworkers? There may be another reason that we are competing very well?

I don't think your are wrong in you analysis just in your conclusions.

Nemont

 

[piper]

Health care costs so much in the U.S because of Insurance companys and the lawyers that accompany that system, indigent care, the lack of preventive care,and some hefty profitering, by the health care industries, capitalism requires competetion or its an expensive way of doing business,the health care industry has not much in the way of competetion,I think McCains health care plan was probably a better way to go about changing things, its too bad he didn't defend it during the debates, nothing is perfect and whatever we do its going to be a rocky road,its probably going to take some trial and error, but doing nothing is not going to cut it, and I think those costs are the actual health care costs on labor per vehicle, that doesn't make total sense because I think ours is only about twice the percentage of health care costs to GDP as S Korea, not four times

 

[NeMont]

Piper,

Do this, go to you local doctors and ask them if they can survive if every patient paid the Medicare rate? You may be surprised by the answer.

How would you fix it with competition? Every time the government has "helped" the cost of providing care increases dramatically.

I disagree with the profiteering statement because Insurance companies have to file their annual report and make the public and their profit margins are not as great as other industries.

Also go look at what GM promised their employees in the way of benefits after retirement. The over promised and under funded their liability. The cost of current workers per vehicle is less the $1,600 but legacy benefits for retirees are a drain. There were many many actuaries who told GM that they were underfunding this liability but they chose to roll the dice and now are paying the price.

I agree that something needs to be done but mandating will not bring down the cost of care.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

Maybe we can put it off a little longer but I'm betting in time we have free full service clinics run and operated by the government for those who can't afford anything else. I see no way around it, they may not provide the best care in the world but free is a very good price.

The only reason it hasn't already happened is you can bet your azz there will be crying about how poor people aren't getting as good of care as those who pay their own way, and many of these people will be minorities which will make the situation even tougher. better hope I'm right, because if we continue down the road we're on we're going to be paying for the best there is to offer for them in unlimited quantity, just as we are now.

We need to do something even if it's wrong, we're going broke as it is.

 

[piper]

Nemont I don't know how the government can create much competition,but maybe McCains plan could have helped, he wanted to do away with the employer tax breaks so that individuals paid their own insurance, that would have brought the cost out in the open more, when I said profiteering I meant the whole industry, not necessarily insurance companys, some people don't agree but I think many other countrys are doing health care a lot better than we are, and with the boomers getting older its not looking good down the road, so tell me what do you think could help?

 

[NeMont]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-08 AT 10:59AM (MST)[p]I think first off it needs to be explained to people that not everyone is going to have Cadillac health insurance provided "free".

Of all the systems I have looked at the one I like the best is the German system of managed competition. There the insurance companies are set up and chartered by the government they are called sickness funds(there are over 300 of them). They cannot by law make a "profit" but they can make money on administration of benefits and they "compete" for new members by offering improved services or better access or something else of value to the enrollee.

There is a dual system where German citizen can opt for a full government plan or opt into a sickness fund. The premiums are paid via a system where the employee and employer each pay half of the premium.

Hospitals also compete between publicly owned, privately owned and private not for profit owned ie (sickness fund owned) companies.

So I think to help everyone there should be regions set up across this country and inside those regions a number of Insurance companies could compete for members, even though I hate thought forced participation such a system would have to mandatory in order for it to work and the companies would have to take all applicants. Providers within a region would be reimbursed base upon the regional cost of doing business plus an acceptable "profit" margin, in order to continue to invest in new technologies. There would need to be a government ran "back stop" that insured people who are not able to function inside such plans due to either job loss or a major disability etc.

There are lots of things that could be done rather then make it a single payer system.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

Nemont, a buddy of mine is an MD and we talk about this often and since you're in the health bz I'm wondering what your take on this is. he says the way to make health care affordable is to disqualify those who won't help themselves.

Let's put aside the fact politically it can't happen for a second and see it it would help. he says if you smoke we'll pay to get you off smoking, if you're on drugs we'll pay to get you cured, if you're obese we'll pay for your diet and anything you need in losing wieght. we could go on but you get the drift, now if you don't do as you're required and quit whatever elective activity it is that makes you unhealthy ( I know being fat would have exceptions ) then you will be denied public funded health care. it may seem harsh but he says if we could get smokers and tweakers out the system it would save us enough money to care for those who deserve it, the long term cost of these people is going to be incredible.

I know getting this to happen would be impossible, but this is why I say have government run health care for this type of people, it's the only way to give them the care they deserve and by that I mean not the best but the cheapest. there is no other way I can see to have a system where you can divide the population into those who are responsible and those who aren't. it isn't fair that a person who does their best is paying the full price tab for the smoking tweaker in the room across the hall from them as it is today.

 

[NeMont]

HD,

Sure if we lived in a perfect world. However that is a fairly large can of worms. Say one smoked for 20 years but quit at age 40 and age 60 needs bypass surgery that is directly related to the 20 years of smoking, is that surgery allowed?

The money spent on smokers is bad enough but the money spent on our growing obesity problems is going to be astronomical. Look at how many kids under 15 are being diagnosed with diabetes, that will change all cost models regardless of which tables one looks at.

Wellness, prevention and education have to be part of any changes and improvements of our current system.

I just have so little faith in our governmet to get it done without mass chaos. I have lived through their entry into prescription drug coverage for medicare enrollees and that left me wishing for no government involvement in any health care related fields.

Nemont

 

[huntindude]

But how can you have no government involvment of something that's a matter of life and death and there's no competition? when was the last super saver sale you saw on a bypass surgery? where are the doctors on TV saying they'll beat any price? we must find a way to at least bring cost down on those who aren't going to pay they're just expecting free care. we have regulation of electricity, natural gas, phones you name it but health care is supply and demand? like you I agree government seldom is the answer but in this situation I see no choice.

 

[northgallatin]

I think if the government does get involvedwith health care, the auto industry, or the financial markets, they need to get involved at the top and only the top.....not socialism but common sense. I am conservative but to see the building and expansion that takes place in the insurance and health industry is staggering. Dude (gulp) is right here hahahaha, we let government get involved in every aspect of the economy... they neeed to do something. My sister is a PA and their salaries are a direct correlation to the overcharge of services and goods they provide, and to make a profit fit for a king when we are dealing with life or death is not a solution and needs to be looked at.

 

[NeMont]

HD,

I didn't say the government shouldn't be involved. I said I have no faith in them being able to do anything in health care that doesn't produce mass chaos.

Nemont