Outlook on Hunting

[sportsman01]

You know, I go through all of these forums quite frequently and often enjoy the pictures and stories of hard earned hunts and well placed shots. I couldn't be happier for the younsters and other hunters that harvest their first animal after years of waiting. Most of the hunters here are true sportsmans but recently I've begun to get a bit upset. It seems nowadays everyone is so concerned about the size of the animal and the "400" class bench mark or the 200 class muley. What ever happened to enjoying the hunt for the shear fact of the outdoors and appreciating each and every animal that's harvested...big or small? A small 3x3 bull elk is no less a trophy to me than a monster 6x6 if I've worked hard and thoroughly enjoyed the hunt for what it is. I get sick of some of the members hear always boasting about mamoth kills and the next world record they are going to set. In most of those cases the "guide" is doing all the work for you. He does everything but "pull the trigger" if you will. Is your 400+ bull that was picked out, scouted constantly and practically handed over to you more of a trophy that the 4x4 bull taken on a DIY hunt that took 5 years to draw? I think not. Don't get me wrong, impressive animals do lie in every sportsmans thoughts, but I think a majority of you are losing sight of what our sport is and what it stands for and are more concerned with bragging rights at the next "good ol boys" meeting. I've even heard of a new trend that allows you to call a bull in, shoot him with a tranquilizer gun, have his 415 class horns removed, get your picture taken and be done. Not to mention the fact that he's penned up and thinks you're there to feed him. Is this hunting? When you look at those giant horns over the mantle do you think about that fantastic hunt you had? All i see is a dollar sign and a mockery of hunters everywhere. Is a whitetail hunt in Texas from a blind that has cable TV, stove, electricity and leather seating over a feeder really a hunt? Can you really feel proud about harvesting that animal through the glass panes that swing open while the game is playing on the TV?
Maybe I'm crazy or maybe I'm tired of our sport becoming a numbers game and all about size and money rather than about tradition, sportsmanship, comradery, and passion of the outdoors.
And don't get me started on harvesting Giraffe's.

 

[NMHUNTNUTT1]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-08 AT 11:29AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-08 AT 11:29?AM (MST)

My dad is a cowboy from back in the day and has killed some very impressive mule deer. He has a couple tremendous bucks from northern NM and to listen to him re-tell the hunts is just awesome, I love those times. When one of my buddies was looking at his mounts and antlers he asked my dad about a specific buck, a monsterous very typical 4x4 and asked my dad what the buck scored? My dad answered saying that scores are for games and he didn't know what the antlers scored but that the hunt was of heritage,love and passion. We have spoke about this since and he just doesn't much care for scoring animals, deductions for this and that and so on and feels that the hoopla created by many magazines, hunting shows,dvds etc have really taken away from what the "hunt" is really all about.

Our "hunting society" if you will, preaches the latest and greatest, and in turn retails all these newer tools/equipment.Then the big animal is put up on covers of mags and a story of what the hunt was like including all these newer rifles, scopes , range finders etc. I'm not saying anything is wrong with having new rifles ,bows , glasses etc, but lets not forget about the hunt itself and the challenge in your own ability, the oppertunity of being in the beautiful outdoors and the respect of the animals we persue.

I was taught that all hunts I have gone on are a success, getting there safely and returning home to my family safely. Enjoying what nature has to offer, and good company and great food.And then if I or anyone in camp is successful in getting an animal, well that is simply a bonus , just a Great Big Ol Bonus.

 

[NMHUNTNUTT1]

The biggest buck my dad ever killed doesn't have the largest antlers of his bucks.He tells the story of how he couldn't hardly move the buck and my dad is 6'0 and 185 lbs now and tough as a bull so I know in his younger days he was tough as 2 bulls and a horse(he's my dad alright). Any how tells how he had trouble moving the buck as he killed him on a very steep hill covered in oak brush, I have been there since. He said the buck rolled and lodged up in a washed out ravine and he just couldn't do much and he had to ride back to my grandpas and get help.He said this buck must have weighed 300 lbs and everybody that saw the deer was just amased by his body size. I asked him if everybody was looking at his antlers and what they said? He said sure they looked at his rack, but it was just another set of antlers but htis deer's body was just huge! Now when I look at pictures I always look the the animals body size, just because of that story.

 

[stinkystomper]

??????? huh???
????

Think I would rather the hunt drag out over the entire length rather than just shoot the first bull during the first 5 minutes of opening light. As for guides???? hahahah. This is the nm huntin thread. Not too many of us on here usin guides. and for those who do, great. More power to you. It's all about fun. Everyone has their own idea of fun. If it wasn't fun nobody would be doing it. Just remember, everyones different. If anyone this year uses a guide and gets a 400 then they deserve it.

We just all need to agree to disagree.

just my two cents.

 

[nmelktrout]

Sportsman, there's no question in my mind that hunting is being diluted by the pursuit of trophy hunting and "high fence" shooters. And, I do believe that some hunters are guilty of losing the essence of the hunt in their pursuit for inches of antler, especially considering that I grew up with the mentality that any elk is a trophy elk and that a hunter should shoot the first legal animal he can. But, stick me in a quality unit with the knowledge that there are some mature bulls running around and I will do my best to harvest as big a bull as possible. I've shot enough game not to feel the pressure to harvest every year and so, sometimes I'll let an animal walk or hold out for something more mature. It's tough and it doesn't always pan out, but it has its own rewards. I'll still enjoy the hunt as much as if I were to take a cow or young raghorn in an overhunted general unit but would rather take each hunt for whatever it has to offer, even if I don't harvest. Will I ever kill a 400" bull? The odds say no, but given the chance will I? Hell yes. Some guys work hard their entire life and then blow a wad of cash on a governors' tag and the chance to hunt for 6 months to a year for a 400 inch bull. Power to them. It's not my thing but it is someone else's defintion of a dream hunt and that's all right with me. I'll let those guys go on their high dollar guided hunts while I'm camped out with family and friends and enjoying my definition of a hunt. Is hunting becoming more gentrified in the U.S as the demand for LO tags, guided hunts, and "high scoring trophies" goes up? Without a doubt. Does it get me down? When I let it. But instead of focusing on all the negative we need to occassionally look at the positive benefits of this: ie., all of the revenue generated in rural communities during hunting seasons, as well as the money spent on and allocated for game management and habitat preservation to name a few.

I think most of us here feel the same way about darting and high fence shooting and that's why we don't do it. Unfortunately, joe public associates high fence with hunting and this only helps in breeding anti-hunting sentiment....


Teach your passion and idea of a hunt to others and we will all hopefully benefit from them.


Counting the days 'til opening morning,
Cody

 

[sportsman01]

Great Post nmelktrout!!! I couldn't agree more. Maybe I'm just a little old school in thought, but I do love to hunt and the outdoors. However, don't mistake me when I say that antlers aren't a part of the thought process. When I'm out and about, like you, I will try and harvest the best bull possible. However, regardless of the "book score" I'll be proud of my harvest be it large, small, or somewhere in between. Just simply saying that there is more to a hunt that antlers and $$$!!!

Thanks for the post!

 

[stinkystomper]

I'd have to agree with nmelk trout as well. I started out in the big ol' family deer camps when I was 3 yrs old. People have died, moved on etc. and the only one left who really loves to hunt is me. Just like the old christmas feeling we all use to get i've spent the rest of my life trying to re-kindle those old feelings just to realize they're gone forever. Trophy hunting is the closest thing I've been able to find since. I Just remember being a young kid hearing everyone talkin bout the big one that got away as we sat around our tree full of spikes and forkies... Those were the days.

 

[mozey]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-08 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]Up to this point in my life, it's all been DIY.

In my younger days I was thrilled with a spike, forky, or even a doe for that matter. I would never belittle that thrill to anyone.

These days, I consider just getting out with a rifle to be a personal success; actually seeing a buck or bull is just icing.

I like deer meat. Alot. So as the deer hunting days get fewer, my standards go down. Alot. After nearly 30 years, I'm still looking to bag that braggin' size muley. Go figure.

Elk, well I've already got a couple wallhangers, and I'm not nearly as fond of the meat. I know, bucking the majority. And elk are not nearly as fun to pack out. So in my case, it's gonna have to be a biggin' iffen I'm a gonna pull the trigger. Going home empty does not much diminish an elk hunt for me, especially after helping BIGBULL48 pack out one of his... ;-)

Somewhere in my future, I hope to do an Alaskan and/or an African hunt. Not having the option of living in either of those places, and thus being unable to thorouhly scout those areas like I otherwise would, please don't think less of me if decide for the first time in life to go with a guide. You wouldn't begrudge an old man his life long dream, would you? ;-)

 

[luckless]

Guys,
The good ol' days of huntin camp are only gone if we let them leave. Sure, generations of good ol' boys are gone and our society has changed quite a bit, but we can still make the classic hunting memories if we choose to. This year, I most likely won't get to deer hunt, but I'll be guiding my dad and my father-in-law will be doing the same for my wife. I'll also be camp cook and bottle washer (3 kids in camp) hanging out with my mom. In addition to family, we'll have two great friends of mine hunting from our 16'x16' cabin at the same time. It may not be the 12-15 man hunting camp of the upper mid-west, but it will be fun.

Being a townie six days out of the week, I do what I can to instill a love of hunting in my kids. Even if it is only looking at the mounts in Wal-Mart and playing name that animal, my 4 year old daughter can accurately ID elk, deer, barbary sheep, oryx and pronghorns...

Hunters only exist because parents grow them, we can't let that fade.

DC

 

[NMHUNTNUTTG]

Some really great replys gentlemen , proud to have you guys part of the camp fire conversation. So much truth in all ya'lls words...

 

[leftturnabq]

Great post luckless.

There are great stories from the past, and it was convenient to be able to buy almost everything over-the-counter at a much lower cost. However, there are still a lot of stories to be made, more strict management has done a lot for quality puiblic hunts, and how much money did the average hunter make then versus now?

For me, the good ol' days of hunting are right now.

My dad's elk hunt last year was the best hunt he's ever been on, and it was DIY.


I have no issue with those that can afford to hire a guide. I do have major issuies with guides that cheat, think they own public land, and disrespect the animal by leaving it to go bad and recovering it later so they only have to pack out the horns.

Don't you have to hire a guide if you go on a hunt to Alaska, Canada, or Africa.

 

[NMHUNTNUTT1]

Africa I believe you need a PH, but I think you can hunt both Alaska and Canada without a guide.

 

[bigbull1]

I have been in the "Trophy Only" camp for many years as a rifle hunter. Even though it took me 21 years to find and be able to kill the trophy muley of my dreams, I still enjoyed each and every hunt, hike, camp, and backpack experience into the wilderness. I enjoyed every headlamped trek into the mountains and are still awestruck with beauty of each sunrise.

I have used guides and used a guide on my recent muley hunt. Mostly because it was necessary to obtain the tag to hunt in that locale. In my guided hunts, I never experienced a guide who did everything but pull the trigger. I have done 3000' vetical hikes daily for a week, glassed until cross-eyed, made endless stalks, and help pack out my meat. Out of three guided hunts, not one had a booner animal gift wrapped for my pleasure.

This year I am doing a outfitted, DIY non-guided archery elk hunt in your home state of New Mexico. I applied for this hunt with an outfitter for the increased odds of drawing, which occurred. While still wanting a "Trophy classed bull", this is my first archery hunt and my expectations have changed. I also love elk meat and it has been six years since taking my bull. I am very excited to hunt New Mexico and the chance to learn new country.

I have exposed each of my children, nephews, cousins and some friends to hunting and the outdoor experience. One of my daughters and my son continue to enjoy hunting and I have "passed it on" to the next generation. I hope to have that experience with grandchildren in the future.

I have switched to archery for the increased opportunities in drawing tags as I have reached my mid-fifties and realize there are only so many hunt seasons left. I always have and always will love hunting.

Ed

www.huntpacks.com

 

[nmelktrout]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-14-08 AT 02:35PM (MST)[p]For AK as a NR you would need a guide for griz, sheep, and goats. You can do a DIY float or drop trip for moose and caribou for fairly reasonable. Black bear are fair game for the unguided though spring season is much better in terms of hide quality....

edit:

Airfare for bush flight services always seems to be the burden for most unguided DIY hunters though there are some pretty good float trip package deals out there that include a lot of gear, and drop and pick up. I think Vin and Balz may have done such a trip last year? Lucky for me I occasionally get to tag along on some pretty cool hunts with some guide and F&G buddies who are AK residents. Can't afford the tags any time soon but I'll haul meat and take picture if I can join in on the hunt.
Rob with Copper River archery griz stalked and taken at 10yds:

Scott with ________ Range Ram 07 (30+ mile pack trip on foot each direction =exhaustion)

 

[Buxndiverdux]

Memories and the way the hair stands up on my arms and neck when I step outside into the cool air of the fall. This time of year completes my needs as a person. It is in my soul and I thank my creator for that. The hunt, the chase, the determination and the friendships, memories and stories that I can take with me and tell forever. No score will ever replace my memories.

 

[CGS371]

This is a great thread.

More than you want to know: I am new to DIY hunting the west. I stumbled upon an Eastmans Journal somewhere a year and a half ago and discovered diy public hunting the west.

I am in TX and grew up here hunting whitetail. I still love it, love the deer, the brush, the hunt, and the comraderie. However, it has changed: Being all private land, you either lease or are a guest (or own) and prices are high. I tend to be a guest, but help guiding too. It has turned very commericial. All deer have a value - I feel guilty if I shoot a deer somewhere - it could have been monetized for 2-10k or more. Most of the deer are known. I know a lease where you have to show members video of your intended, get majority approval, and then you can shoot it. That only hints at the absurdity here...but it isn't all bad no matter how corporate it becomes.

However, you guys (and gals) in the west have it good. Giant swaths of land where anything can happen. In NM you can draw for $8 to shoot Elk that some pay $10k+ for. It is up to you, your skills, work, preparation, knowledge, help from friends, and a little luck to make it happen.

Its not about proving something to other people as it is about proving something to yourself or just regrounding yourself with who you are...and challenging yourself. Scores too often are about proving something to other people or about pricing or are just misguiding. I used to hate scores on deer. I've seen 170s I'd rather shoot than 195s. Now days, I think they have some utility in communicating. But number of points, spread, body weight...maybe hoof size are all other facets that should be shared. Heck, the MD I shot last year is likely the best tasting deer I have ever had. I don't hate scores like I used too, provided it brings us to better understanding.

The deer I shot last year scored in the 160s, was likley 7yrs old, dressed out near 250 and I would not trade the experience or the deer for anything. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As far as guides go...I much rather do it myself, but I did hire a fishing guide the other year in WY on the condition it be like two buddies fishing and not a client like relationship. Sometimes we just don't have the time to learn it all.

Happy to be here.