Point Averaging for groups?

[Stevo]

I remember this being brought up recently, but was just wondering if this was still a possibility for the 2023 season?

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

Nope

 

[Sparks Shooter]

I sure hope not! Point averaging and point sharing only incentivize abuses of the system in my opinion. I wish my state would adopt CO's rules regarding point averaging. Thousands of non-hunters across Nevada would be immediately out of the pool.

In my opinion, the best system is one that gets as many different people through as quickly as possible, not the system that gets tags to the same people year after year while others sit and wait.---SS

 

[1989Cohunter]

Yeah it would f things up pretty royally. It would be even more of a money game than it already is.

 

[nripepi]

I sure hope not! Point averaging and point sharing only incentivize abuses of the system in my opinion. I wish my state would adopt CO's rules regarding point averaging. Thousands of non-hunters across Nevada would be immediately out of the pool.

In my opinion, the best system is one that gets as many different people through as quickly as possible, not the system that gets tags to the same people year after year while others sit and wait.---SS

I think point averaging is awesome when used with friends and family, it gets everyone on the same point level and able to hunt together. We use it in Wyoming with friends and family and have had awesome hunts that would have been difficult to do otherwise. It has also knocked out some with higher level of points who would rather share and go together. If abuse is an issue, only allow it once per five years. That should fix the issues, right?

 

[Stevo]

I think point averaging is awesome when used with friends and family, it gets everyone on the same point level and able to hunt together. We use it in Wyoming with friends and family and have had awesome hunts that would have been difficult to do otherwise. It has also knocked out some with higher level of points who would rather share and go together. If abuse is an issue, only allow it once per five years. That should fix the issues, right?

That's exactly what I was hoping to do. I have 8 elk points and my dad has 4. He's been a point behind the unit he's been trying for the past 2 years so I was hoping to burn my points so we could hunt together while he's still physically able.

 

[Crampy]

...We use it in Wyoming with friends and family and have had awesome hunts that would have been difficult to do otherwise. It has also knocked out some with higher level of points who would rather share and go together. If abuse is an issue, only allow it once per five years. That should fix the issues, right?

I see some true F&F sharing. More often, I see point selling and family members collecting points that don't actually hunt.

One share every 5 years won't fix it. It takes a spouse/grandparent/sibling many years of accumulation before the game player needs them.

But CPW will probably approve point averaging and think it's a great idea. Just a few years ago, they came up with the great idea to discontinue prepayment for tags. That went well.

 

[elks96]

I think point averaging is awesome when used with friends and family, it gets everyone on the same point level and able to hunt together. We use it in Wyoming with friends and family and have had awesome hunts that would have been difficult to do otherwise. It has also knocked out some with higher level of points who would rather share and go together. If abuse is an issue, only allow it once per five years. That should fix the issues, right?

I think it is awesome when I have excess disposable income and just buy points for my family and split with them. Mom gets a point, dad gets a point, uncle, and more. Then I rotate and get to have a 4 point average every other year with a different family member who never even hunts.

 

[elks96]

I think it is awesome when I have excess disposable income and just buy points for my family and split with them. Mom gets a point, dad gets a point, uncle, and more. Then I rotate and get to have a 4 point average every other year with a different family member who never even hunts.

If you have to make up special rules then you are not fixing anything by allowing it. You are just creating more problems…

 

[nripepi]

If you have to make up special rules then you are not fixing anything by allowing it. You are just creating more problems…

I guarantee that the majority of people sharing points in Wyoming are doing it legit. I call BS that a lot of people are buying for friends and family that don't hunt. Some do I am sure. It would be simple for Wyoming to figure all of that out. I think 5 years just stops those who do it every year or who are using all of their grandma's to apply.

 

[nripepi]

If you have to make up special rules then you are not fixing anything by allowing it. You are just creating more problems…

How does it create more problems than the current rules?

 

[nripepi]

I see some true F&F sharing. More often, I see point selling and family members collecting points that don't actually hunt.

One share every 5 years won't fix it. It takes a spouse/grandparent/sibling many years of accumulation before the game player needs them.

But CPW will probably approve point averaging and think it's a great idea. Just a few years ago, they came up with the great idea to discontinue prepayment for tags. That went well.

Where do you see more point selling then true sharing? On MM? I guarantee 100% most point sharing in Wyoming is legit friends and family. I would bet anything.

The game player would be subject to the 5-year stipulation as well. Heck, make it 10 if you really want to. I really don't think you will see abuse like you are saying if you can only hunt by sharing every 5th year. Those with that type of disposable income will just buy a landowners tag.

 

[txhunter58]

Point averaging: yes.

Easy to limit abuses. Make it so all people have to turn back in their tag if anyone returns a tag. OR, they can return the tag and get a refund but they lose their points. Keeps people from Selling their points. If they do, they lose all their points. It will raise points needed for mid tier units in the short term but would help in the long run because it reduces the people in higher point pool.

 

[Joe2Kool]

Point averaging: yes.

Easy to limit abuses. Make it so all people have to turn back in their tag if anyone returns a tag. OR, they can return the tag and get a refund but they lose their points. Keeps people from Selling their points. If they do, they lose all their points. It will raise points needed for mid tier units in the short term but would help in the long run because it reduces the people in higher point pool.

I believe Arizona recently made changes similar to these to help close the loophole. Can't remember the specifics though.

 

[elks96]

I guarantee that the majority of people sharing points in Wyoming are doing it legit. I call BS that a lot of people are buying for friends and family that don't hunt. Some do I am sure. It would be simple for Wyoming to figure all of that out. I think 5 years just stops those who do it every year or who are using all of their grandma's to apply.

haha. I know 7 people applying in WY and all 7 are buying points for at least 2 other people, and the most is buying points for at least 5.... As a NR I was buying points for 4 people and only 2 (My wife and I were hunting). Maybe I hang out with people who are more serious?

 

[elks96]

Point averaging: yes.

Easy to limit abuses. Make it so all people have to turn back in their tag if anyone returns a tag. OR, they can return the tag and get a refund but they lose their points. Keeps people from Selling their points. If they do, they lose all their points. It will raise points needed for mid tier units in the short term but would help in the long run because it reduces the people in higher point pool.

No it will never reduce points in the long term. It may slow some high point inflation but the top units will still creep up and a new person to the system will still not likely draw in their life time. Also it will without a doubt cause a massive inflation in the mid and lower point level units, which will never see a decrease again. So basically you argument is point averaging will increase points required cross the board, but we should do it because it might slow point creep a little for the top units?

 

[elks96]

Point averaging: yes.

Easy to limit abuses. Make it so all people have to turn back in their tag if anyone returns a tag. OR, they can return the tag and get a refund but they lose their points. Keeps people from Selling their points. If they do, they lose all their points. It will raise points needed for mid tier units in the short term but would help in the long run because it reduces the people in higher point pool.

ALso the abuse may be point selling, but the bigger issue are guys who are just buying points to average with. Again I know several people who buy points for people who are not likely going to hunt, but buying the points helps the average and it can make sure they get a tag in 1/2 the time vs. running solo...

 

[txhunter58]

Most of us know someone with more points that still has no chance of ever catching up for 1st tier tags. They can decide to go on a lower tier hunt with a friend(s) and get out of the rat race. I like that idea

Will there be “loopholes” in the system? Sure. But those abuses will be rare compared to family members or good friends deciding to blow their pile of points and hunt together.

 

[nripepi]

haha. I know 7 people applying in WY and all 7 are buying points for at least 2 other people, and the most is buying points for at least 5.... As a NR I was buying points for 4 people and only 2 (My wife and I were hunting). Maybe I hang out with people who are more serious?

Okay. So these other people didn't hunt at all and you and others were paying double for tags? I know 25 people buying points in Wyoming personally and none buy for other family members that don't hunt.

 

[elks96]

Most of us know someone with more points that still has no chance of ever catching up for 1st tier tags. They can decide to go on a lower tier hunt with a friend(s) and get out of the rat race. I like that idea

Will there be “loopholes” in the system? Sure. But those abuses will be rare compared to family members or good friends deciding to blow their pile of points and hunt together.

But when that happens what will it do the points required for the lesser units with friends? It will inflate the points required and as a result the entire system moves up. It will hyper inflate the lower and mid tier units as guys with high points jump down…

 

[elks96]

Okay. So these other people didn't hunt at all and you and others were paying double for tags? I know 25 people buying points in Wyoming personally and none buy for other family members that don't hunt.

Yes that is what happens. It is what I did, and yes you pay for 2 tags in the regular but you are also hunting in WY twice as often…

 

[nripepi]

Yes that is what happens. It is what I did, and yes you pay for 2 tags in the regular but you are also hunting in WY twice as often…

Sounds like a win for G&F as they get the money while saving an animal. No wonder they don't stop it. I still bet most people are just buying 1 point, would be pretty simple to figure out.

 

[Crampy]

... I know 25 people buying points in Wyoming personally and none buy for other family members that don't hunt.

Please don’t tell any of them about this thread.

My wife has never shot anything and she probably never will unless she draws MSG. But she has a ton of points in almost every state that allows averaging.

Yes, it can get expensive, but it provides options and I’ve made two new “friends” in the process. And I’ve boosted off her myself. If states do ever catch on, then I will just have her shoot a Deer/Elk/Pronghorn after all.

Tons of guys are doing this (especially on cheap RES tags). Most of them consider this legitimate F&F sharing. I think it’s BS but I play the game anyway to keep up. It’s significantly cheaper for me to do this than the point boosting I would get with WY special draw.

States do make good money off my wife – especially because the animal always lives because my wife never leaves the house.

I will really make out well if CPW were to introduce averaging as the wife is 15 points in for Colorado and never had a plan for any of those points.

She has a ton of moose points in NH/VT/Maine also. Because those states all allow the hunter and one designated helper to also shoot. So my son would shoot and she would just have to be physically present.

 

[txhunter58]

Wow. Had no idea. I wouldn’t want to pay your Visa bill when all the apps are in

 

[wweaver79]

I believe Arizona recently made changes similar to these to help close the loophole. Can't remember the specifics though.

Az you can do it once then the high point holder has to use tag. Only can return it once with point guard. So it is still there but one shot to help someone draw then they loose their points the second time.

 

[txhunter58]

Don’t like that. Should be that all in group have to turn in tags or they lose their points on first run. That rule is made for selling your points one time.

 

[Bluehair]

So, the argument by people gaming the system is that it will cause MORE people to game the system?

It might clip a few of the high point guys for deer and elk, but it won’t change anything for the “oil” tags.

The fact is the only way to stop point creep is to raise prices.

 

[Wiszard]

I buy my wife points for deer and elk in WY. She said she'd hunt with me but hasn't in 3 years. Maybe some day. Until then, I will continue to buy her points and if I need her points to be able to draw a tag in an upcoming year then I will use her points to average with mine. I pay for an additional tag along with all the $$ spent to buy the points. She won't hunt so it saves an animal yet WY makes the income on the tag without sacrificing the resource. You're welcome Wyoming!

 

[Crampy]

Az you can do it once then the high point holder has to use tag. Only can return it once with point guard. So it is still there but one shot to help someone draw then they loose their points the second time.

Yes, and when I eventually use non hunting wife's AZ points I assumed it will be one and done due to that one time only pointguard rule.

Unless AZ is selling a new high cost next generation point guard by that time that has different rules. AZ GFD is shifty like that.

 

[tracker12]

Point averaging: yes.

Easy to limit abuses. Make it so all people have to turn back in their tag if anyone returns a tag. OR, they can return the tag and get a refund but they lose their points. Keeps people from Selling their points. If they do, they lose all their points. It will raise points needed for mid tier units in the short term but would help in the long run because it reduces the people in higher point pool.

I drew an elk tag this year with my buddy. Two weeks before the hunt he had a heart issue and could not make the hunt. I most likely got my tag using one of his points. I was surprised when WY refunded his money, gave him back his points and also let him buy one for this year. Way better deal than howe CO treats a NR when he has to return a tag for heath reasons.

 

[txhunter58]

I drew an elk tag this year with my buddy. Two weeks before the hunt he had a heart issue and could not make the hunt. I most likely got my tag using one of his points. I was surprised when WY refunded his money, gave him back his points and also let him buy one for this year. Way better deal than howe CO treats a NR when he has to return a tag for heath reasons.

I see no issue with a provable health issue. But there needs to be a safeguard to keep someone from selling three points and then getting a refund and their points back.

 

[Crampy]

I see no issue with a provable health issue. But there needs to be a safeguard to keep someone from selling three points and then getting a refund and their points back.

Worse yet, the state doesn't claw back the point used by the other person in the party.

 

[gopher1]

I would not a fan of this, if that's the case, what's the difference between a landowner selling his tag and me taking a.k.a a friend of mine who happens to be well off . oh well just my opinion

 

[Crampy]

Point Averaging can also allow you to trade your WY points to an outfitter. Can be a great deal.

Have 16 WY elk points and you can trade about 12 of those points and get free guide service! (As he will put you in with three 0-1 point guys and use your points to get four WY-GEN tags).

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