Points Game

[TheInformedHunter]

It there any chance that states with elaborate point schemes go back to a standard draw like ID or NM? The points game seems to work okay for 4-5 point units that have enough tags to cycle hunters through every few years, but catching up to the high demand units is impossible.

 

[CFMuley]

They would have to come up with one hell of a compensation plan for guys with a lot of points, and even then anyone with more than a few points would be pretty ticked off.

 

[sticksender]

Very unlikely. They'd be sacrificing what has become a significant income stream. Some states now collect as much as 150.00 per species per year, just to grant a point.

 

[tracker12]

Not as long as they continue to make more money on apps than they do selling licenses.

 

[BeDawg]

I don’t think it’s a scheme. You just have to face the facts that Jurassic Park like hunts are sometimes never obtainable. Having max points or random draw odds doesn’t guarantee anything. I live in NM and know people who complain that they can’t get a tag and the system here is corrupt! They are just too stupid to go for a less than slam dunk tags.

 

[DW]

"Catching up"? Are you familiar with Colorado's system? I've got 20pts for sheep, goat, and moose. Nearly everyone that drew tags in the units I applied for had fewer points than I did. Do i need to give some of my points away to "catch up"?

 

[hawkbill]

Hunting is a lifetime investment for good tags, other wise it’s opportunity hunting.

 

[BrianID]

I really doubt any of the states with points will ever go back to random draw. The $$ states get from points is too good. I'm still concerned that NM or Idaho could end up with a point system but fortunately more and more hunters have become aware of how a point system is bad for them and there is strong opposition to point systems in both states.

The more likely scenario is that states will change the rules to attract hunters to apply in their state. Arizona did this about 5 years ago. It use to be that the 10% nonresident quota was often reached in the bonus point pass of the draw so you couldn't draw most areas unless you had enough points. Now only 50% of the AZ nonresident tags will go to the applicants with the most points and the other 50% of the tags can be drawn by someone with zero points.

One of the big downfalls to point systems is that you invest significant time and $$ to build points and then the rules are changed. Many of the high point holders were upset with the changes AZ implemented 5 years ago.

There are still many hunters out there that think point systems are good for them. I would ask any hunter that likes a point system to seriously question if point systems are really in their best interest. It is really simple math. Point systems encourage more applications every year than random draw. More applicants for a limited number of tags results in decreased draw odds. The extra $$ from extra applicants is good for the state game departments but not good for hunters. Being able to predict when you will draw a tag is the only benefit point systems provide hunters.

With all that said, I still play the point game in Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Wyoming and Montana this year. If you want to hunt these states, you have to play the game. My only tag so far this year is in New Mexico that has no point system. I've been able to draw a deer tag in NM for 6 straight years. If there was a point system in NM, I could guarantee you that I wouldn't have drawn as many tags.

I could feel all warm and fuzzy that I've built up a bunch of sheep points in NM over the years. The truth is points won't statistically help you draw the most coveted tags each state offers unless your health outlast others in your same point group. I actually feel like I have a better chance at getting a NM bighorn tag in the next 30 years than an Arizona bighorn tag. If my physical health holds up until I'm 95 and I continue to apply in AZ, then I have a decent chance at a bighorn tag there but I would rather have a small chance at a bighorn tag while I'm young and I'm physically able to enjoy the hunt. Just like Socialism, point systems seem like a good idea to keep things "fair" but the long term consequences of point systems and socialism are both bad.

 

[AZNATIVE98]

I really doubt any of the states with points will ever go back to random draw. The $$ states get from points is too good. I'm still concerned that NM or Idaho could end up with a point system but fortunately more and more hunters have become aware of how a point system is bad for them and there is strong opposition to point systems in both states.

The more likely scenario is that states will change the rules to attract hunters to apply in their state. Arizona did this about 5 years ago. It use to be that the 10% nonresident quota was often reached in the bonus point pass of the draw so you couldn't draw most areas unless you had enough points. Now only 50% of the AZ nonresident tags will go to the applicants with the most points and the other 50% of the tags can be drawn by someone with zero points.

One of the big downfalls to point systems is that you invest significant time and $$ to build points and then the rules are changed. Many of the high point holders were upset with the changes AZ implemented 5 years ago.

There are still many hunters out there that think point systems are good for them. I would ask any hunter that likes a point system to seriously question if point systems are really in their best interest. It is really simple math. Point systems encourage more applications every year than random draw. More applicants for a limited number of tags results in decreased draw odds. The extra $$ from extra applicants is good for the state game departments but not good for hunters. Being able to predict when you will draw a tag is the only benefit point systems provide hunters.

With all that said, I still play the point game in Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Wyoming and Montana this year. If you want to hunt these states, you have to play the game. My only tag so far this year is in New Mexico that has no point system. I've been able to draw a deer tag in NM for 6 straight years. If there was a point system in NM, I could guarantee you that I wouldn't have drawn as many tags.

I could feel all warm and fuzzy that I've built up a bunch of sheep points in NM over the years. The truth is points won't statistically help you draw the most coveted tags each state offers unless your health outlast others in your same point group. I actually feel like I have a better chance at getting a NM bighorn tag in the next 30 years than an Arizona bighorn tag. If my physical health holds up until I'm 95 and I continue to apply in AZ, then I have a decent chance at a bighorn tag there but I would rather have a small chance at a bighorn tag while I'm young and I'm physically able to enjoy the hunt. Just like Socialism, point systems seem like a good idea to keep things "fair" but the long term consequences of point systems and socialism are both bad.

AZ is 80% random draw and 20% to max bonus points, all you have to do is look at the bonus reports the AZGFD puts out to see that most tags go to people at the low end of the point spectrum. What deer tags are you drawing every year in NM, I'll bet they aren't 2B or whatever unit is considered NM quality. You can hunt deer just about every year in AZ if you want to hunt whitetail in southern AZ. Unlike lets say Wyoming which charges an application fee to apply and extra money if you choose to buy a preference point, AZ charges an application fee only no extra charge for a bonus point. I don't know of a single western state that doesn't charge an application fee for their big game draw tags.

 

[hossblur]

Point systems were devised by gray hairs to benefit gray hairs.

Then some accountants saw a massive revenue stream, especially with the license purchase requirements.

It’s perpetually championed by folks who can’t do math, and can’t read statistics.
Guys 1year away think “next year”. Not looking at the massive numbers of guys with max points who are out there that could drop in, so they stay “1year away” forever.

Then there’s the fact that for new hunters, all top tier units are closed to them, and many 2nd tier units are OIL.

But no. States won’t drop it

 

[BigChiefJ]

How may states have a true points system where it's high point holders take all tags? Colorado has hybrid draw for some units and Wyoming has their random draw quota.

I figure any straight point draw states might shift towards a hybrid system.

I play the points game, but would be happy with random.

 

[DeerHunter53]

Point systems were devised by gray hairs to benefit gray hairs.

Then some accountants saw a massive revenue stream, especially with the license purchase requirements.

It’s perpetually championed by folks who can’t do math, and can’t read statistics.
Guys 1year away think “next year”. Not looking at the massive numbers of guys with max points who are out there that could drop in, so they stay “1year away” forever.

Then there’s the fact that for new hunters, all top tier units are closed to them, and many 2nd tier units are OIL.

But no. States won’t drop it

Grey Hairs? what the hell is grey hairs. Someone older than you with more wisdom beyond your years....

 

[hossblur]

Grey Hairs? what the hell is grey hairs. Someone older than you with more wisdom beyond your years....

Obviously.

The points scheme shows all that wisdom. It’s worked exactly how it was sold. I know I’ve drawn tags every 3-4years.

Ya, I was around when that got sold

 

[desperatehills]

I am not for or against points. I play the game all over. I have drawn tags I expected to draw with the points I had, I have gotten random tags, and I have a stack of points for tags I will never get.

Having said that, if New Mexico or Idaho ever start a point system I would jump right in. If anyone on here says they would quit applying in those states if they started a point system I would call a liar. Point systems are great if you are in from the start. The ones that hate points usually are not the ones with max points.

 

[WVHUNTER]

Most of us didn't have grey hair when we started applying for these points.

 

[BrianID]

AZ is 80% random draw and 20% to max bonus points, all you have to do is look at the bonus reports the AZGFD puts out to see that most tags go to people at the low end of the point spectrum. What deer tags are you drawing every year in NM, I'll bet they aren't 2B or whatever unit is considered quality.

I drew 2B last year in NM. In other units in NM I've killed a 32" mule deer and 28" mule deer as well as two nice coues deer in the last 6 years. I've also drawn an elk tag in a quality unit and oryx in NM in the last 3 years. I'm very happy with my NM hunting opportunities.

In AZ 10% of the tags go to nonresident. Several years ago all 10% of the high demand nonresident tags would end up being issued in the bonus point pass. Now only 50% of the nonresident tags will go in the bonus point pass. I think this was a good change but many of the high point holding nonresidents were upset. It actually gave a small benefited to high point holding residents because the high demand hunts now give 15% of the tags in the bonus point pass to residents and it use to be only 10%.

As a nonresident you have to buy a hunting license ($160) to apply in the draw as well as the application fee. For deer, elk and pronghorn it costs me over $200 per year to build points in AZ. Wyoming costs me around $150 per year to build points for deer, elk and pronghorn. Overall I'm very happy with the opportunity AZ offers nonresidents. AZ has given me a unit 27 elk tag. I also believe that the residents of each state should get to choose what type of seasons and draw system their states has.

If you like point systems because it helps you predict when you may draw a tag, you are welcome to have that opinion in the land of the free and home of the brave. I still play the point game in AZ, CO, NV, UT, WY and MT but would gladly give up all my points for random draw. It really is simple math for hunters to see that point systems are not to their benefit.

 

[BeDawg]

How can you call it a scheme when draw odds and amount of applicants are laid out in spreadsheets in a transparent way for everyone to see.

For the record, I am not for or against points. I view both systems as equal opportunity for everyone. The real problem is- supply does not meet demand.

 

[BrianID]

Having said that, if New Mexico or Idaho ever start a point system I would jump right in. If anyone on here says they would quit applying in those states if they started a point system I would call a liar. Point systems are great if you are in from the start. The ones that hate points usually are not the ones with max points.

Hopefully NM and ID never go to a point system but if they do, even guys like me that are against point systems would be foolish not to get in on the ground floor. Initially point systems would seem like a great idea, just like socialism may seem like a good idea but the long term consequences for point systems and socialism need to be considered.

 

[BrianID]

How can you call it a scheme when draw odds and amount of applicants are laid out in spreadsheets in a transparent way for everyone to see.

It becomes a scheme when the rules get changed after you have put in significant years and $$ into building your points.

I don't think point systems are absolutely terrible for hunters but they also are not beneficial to hunters like they think they are. It isn't difficult math to figure out that point systems will decrease your odds of drawing a tag.

 

[hossblur]

Utah changed. Originally R could put in for all species, IF you could pay upfront.

Then it was 1LE, and 1 OIL and $10.

That’s why the same guys have max points.

It’s a scheme. And it makes big money for the states.

Do the math. If your under double digits, your WAYYYYYYY better off random

 

[WapitiBob]

How can you call it a scheme when draw odds and amount of applicants are laid out in spreadsheets in a transparent way for everyone to see.

Because they haven't figured out that 10 chances at a low number are better than 1, or that 7 points is better than 0 when it takes 6 to draw the tag.

 

[hawkbill]

I have been blessed with some great tags over the years, with points and without points, I consider myself very lucky. I know a lot of guys in the same situation as myself that cannot draw a tag no matter what they do, are they just unlucky. I know several guys that have not been able draw an Idaho Elk tag in 20 years. With the great human migration from the the west and east coasts to the Rocky Mountain communities we are all going to see hunting change in a big way. If you want my honest opion of my home state of Idaho they are doing a crappy job of managing our wildlife. Just because a guy watched an episode of the Meat Eater and now he thinks hes a hunter,, but it’s unfair to him because he can’t get a good tag. Points or no points my teenage kids will never to be able to hunt how I have. Idaho is not going to a points system, heck there dumping out another 5000 cow elk tags this week to the general public.

 

[runamuk]

I have never drawn an Elk tag in Idaho I have been putting in since 1980, in that same 40 years I have only drawn 2 Deer tags and 2 Antelope tags.
I guess I'm just one of those unlucky guys, but I hope Idaho never goes to a point system.

 

[roadrunner]

I live in NM and know people who complain that they can’t get a tag and the system here is corrupt! They are just too stupid to go for a less than slam dunk tags.

So do I and what you said simply is not true.

Some of us can't even draw less than slam dunk tags, and no, we are not talking leftovers either. You don't put in for those just so you can draw. Afterall, they're leftover anyway...

 

[DBR]

If I ever get drawn in AZ I’m done. When they changed the draw a few years ago it threw me backwards big time. I’ve invested 17 years of NR’s applications on a unit that was a slam dunk with 10pts. In the mean time as a N.M. resident with no points I have drawn a lot of great tags. I don’t need the points game once I get out of AZ’s ponzi scheme.

 

[AZNATIVE98]

As a resident in AZ I have drawn some great tags with 0 to very few points in the RANDOM draw. As a NR in Wyoming it took me 14 years to draw an Antelope tag and after 6 years in NM with no luck and nothing to show for it I decided screw that. The problem with NR applying in AZ isn't the points its the 10% cap. I don't know what species you're applying for but lets say 17 years you should have at least 18 points, NR with 18 points Elk =325, Antelope=208 and deer=245, total NR applying for each species is in the tens of thousands so points or random draw NR drawing even a crappy tag in AZ isn't great odds.

 

[ByeByeObamas]

I don’t think it’s a scheme. You just have to face the facts that Jurassic Park like hunts are sometimes never obtainable. Having max points or random draw odds doesn’t guarantee anything. I live in NM and know people who complain that they can’t get a tag and the system here is corrupt! They are just too stupid to go for a less than slam dunk tags.

Perfectly said on slam dunk hunts. People have to accept that they "may get an alright" tag, otherwise it would be socialist where everyone gets a medal. It seems like I realized that at about year 8 of putting in for states. "Good" units when I started took 6, then 8 years later it was at 10 pts needed. Im glad I did it, but had to swallow it. One article I read said put in all over the place and you will get one decent tag a year. It is starting to pay off. I spend about 700 per year on pts and non refundable licenses and then have to get the tag. But in my opinion, it is a way better deal than a 1500 dollar landowner tag...

 

[desperatehills]

I have never drawn an Elk tag in Idaho I have been putting in since 1980, in that same 40 years I have only drawn 2 Deer tags and 2 Antelope tags.
I guess I'm just one of those unlucky guys, but I hope Idaho never goes to a point system.

Whoa! 40 years with no elk tag and you still don't want a point system? That is some black belt level stubbornness right there!

 

[lostinOregon]

It is supply and demand. The point systems were created to give everyone a shot at a tag eventually, unfortunately there are not enough tags to go around. Folks that got in on the ground floor like the point systems and the newer, younger folks don't like it because they can see a future with no premium tags.

The biggest problem however, is folks that apply for the Henries, Unit 2 Colorado Elk, Mt. Breaks bighorn sheep and then say the system sucks when they don't draw. If you follow the lists and the best of the best these will be once in a lifetime hunts.

If you apply for 1 percent and below hunts you shouldn't expect to draw, plain and simple. I use point systems to my advantage and usually have more options per year than I can actually hunt. Wait in line when you want a certain hunt, other times take a tag in a less than perfect area and make the best of it.

Rich

 

[runamuk]

Whoa! 40 years with no elk tag and you still don't want a point system? That is some black belt level stubbornness right there!

Ha,Ha...... if I wasnt able to pick up a an OTC tag every year I might be singing a different tune.
No doubt I have always put in for for some of the highest odds units, but it has always baffled me that I have never drawn an Elk tag especially not even from the 80's and 90's.

 

[hawkbill]

It’s funny how they keep saying hunting is a dying sport we have to recruit more hunters, the young, women, men, Hispanics,Blacks and LGBTQ. Hopefully I’m not leaving anyone out. We have a lot more hunters now than we did Five years ago because of the hot shot celebrity movie star hunters, utube celebrities, face book celebrities and Instagram flat brimmers. Why on gods earth would they go to a points system when the the Farmer run game and fish Can sell all these tags , and wait until next year they will double their revenue. Tags are cheap in Idaho. F**K points, I’m going to puch for a special senior citizen tag for all big game species gareeteed yearly.

 

[Comules]

It there any chance that states with elaborate point schemes go back to a standard draw like ID or NM? The points game seems to work okay for 4-5 point units that have enough tags to cycle hunters through every few years, but catching up to the high demand units is impossible.

They need to go back to the way Colorado did it years ago and let people bank there points.

 

[hossblur]

The fix is easy. But since we all agree there is no chance the states give up the revenue, then the next step solves it.

Stop allowing guys to play both sides. You can put in for LE, OR general. Not both.

Let guys decide if it’s TRULY worth 25yrs of no deer hunting to draw the Pauns.

Or 25 yrs of not hunting elk to draw the San Juan.

Let the opportunity guys have their tags, and the trophy hunters have there’s. But not both

 

[WapitiBob]

They need to go back to the way Colorado did it years ago and let people bank there points.

Absolutely the worst thing you can do to an established draw system.

 

[DBR]

18 AZ elk points for sale...call after 5pm....also 12 antelope points...negotiable..

 

[huntazido]

What is the going rate for selling your 20 or so elk points? Asking for a friend

 

[BeDawg]

If y’all were Female I am sure your privates would be for sale too!

 

[deadibob]

Grey Hairs? what the hell is grey hairs. Someone older than you with more wisdom beyond your years....

When the point system started in Utah there were no grey hairs but that was thirty years ago
That first year when the DWR was selling the point system to us they also said we would draw L.E. elk tags every five years.?

I still have the handouts they gave us at those meetings.

 

[deadibob]

If y’all were Female I am sure your privates would be for sale too!

I'm not a female but mine are for sale. I think I may need to lower my asking price because I haven't had any buyers