Points Versus No Points

shedneck

Active Member
Messages
589
I thought I'd share my thoughts on what became the unintended major topic of another recent thread - points versus random versus hybrid. I used to be very vocal against Idaho's draw system and folks didn't hesitate to call me out on it. I was sure I was right. Over time I've formed a different opinion which I think is somewhat different than most. I've learned this: if you apply in multiple states like I do, then it's far more important to look at your applications as a whole instead of individual applications and individual states because in the end we all just want to hunt. With that said, isn't it pretty awesome to have a variety of systems? Some systems ensure you are rewarded with points for loyalty recognizing that it might take several years to have a chance at drawing, while others give you a small shot at a random tag with points, and others are pure random. I appreciate that. It makes sense to me. Imagine a scenario where you have applied in 8 or 10 states and haven't drawn a single tag. Sure, over the counter options are great and available, but let's face it, most of us prefer limited entry tags. Then Idaho applications roll around near the end of application season. Instead of knowing for absolute sure that you won't draw a tag because you don't have the necessary points, you have a glimmer of hope. Arguments for and against various draw systems make sense to me, but I've gained an appreciation for all of them.
 
No points!! I play the points game in multiple other states but I like it how it is here in my home state. Completely random. I get the financial side of it that F&G also has to take into consideration and with that said, if they went to a points system for Non-Residents I would be OK with that. It would give nonresidents more incentive to apply and spend their money here, they would have something in return in obtaining a point and I can only imagine it would bring in more money. Odds would stay the same for residents as no more than 10% of tags would go to non-residents so that doesn't change (although NR odds may go down). I think Idaho residents have spoken for themselves and made it clear that the "majority" would prefer the current random system stay in place for residents.

With that said, if we were forced into a points game of some sort, I would hope for one similar to Nevada's.... Maybe Utah's, where a percentage of the tags go to the highest point holder but still a random chance for others too, but Nevada's system would be my choice.

spotnstalk
 
I'm against a point system, while it can guarantee a tag to some people, it eliminates everyone else.

I would support an increased waiting period to better the odds of prior unsuccessful applicants.

My family playing the points game in Utah, Colorado and Nevada for 8 years and I've drawn 1 archery deer tag .

We've been applying in Idaho for 2 years and we've drawn 6 tags and can still hunt the general seasons .
 
I'm all for a points system that has a portion of the tags go into a random pool. There are those for and against points, with this type of system everyone gets some of what they want. That being said it's not that big of a deal to me either way. If Idaho stays with a complete random system there are two things I think most individuals would be for implementing. Have the draw earlier and get the results out around the end of May. This would allow those who drew a coveted tag the ability to not only plan and put the time in that sort of tag deserves and also help with applying or not applying in other states. I also like the idea of longer wait periods. 3 years would be great, and really allow more people the opportunity to hunt some of the better areas.
 
I'm against a point system of any kind. I don't think any of them are sustainable over a long period of time. The only people who benefit are the ones who get in at ground zero but then once you draw a good tag you're screwed and so are the next generation of hunters. I don't like the idea of extending waiting periods either because there's a lot of tags that can be drawn fairly easy that don't need any further restrictions.
 
The system in NV is the best imo. Completely random draw, just increased "tickets" in the raffle for every year unsuccessful. I don't like the idea of half the tags going to max point holders. That's where the log jam comes from....
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-18 AT 10:06AM (MST)[p]Against it. 3-5 year waiting period per species, except cow/calf or doe/fawn hunts. That would make it more attractive to meat hunters, and to getting more people involved in hunting for meat. Meat hunting is the way for us to increase hunting participation as most non-hunters I come across are turned off by trophy photos/hunting. Once in a lifetime species will stay that way.
 
Points
The first year every one that applied has same odds as they are now with random.
Once you draw then the odds are way worse every year
 
No points. I am a NR and play the game in all Western states. If you only want 1 or 2 limited entry tags in your lives or your kids lives then go to a point system. I have 10 plus points in all states that offer points except Utah where I currently have 19. I am happy to live in New Mexico where it is totally random and can average a elk tag every 3 or 4 years.
 
Bonus points (Nevada system) YES YES

Preference points (Colorado system) NO NO

People who apply over and over again and don't get drawn should have a better chance (not a guaranteed chance)than someone who has just drawn a tag. I am an Idaho resident with kids and it would sure be nice when I put them in for a youth hunt and they don't draw, that they may have a better chance next year.

For those that don't understand the 2 systems-a bonus point system simply gives those that have been unsuccessful in the past more chances for the current year. People with "0" points (drew last year) may have 1 "chance" while someone with "5" points (haven't drawn for 5 years) may have 26 chances. People can and do draw with "0" points.

Preference points mean only the people with the most points get the tags. If you don't have the most you don't have a chance.

Points are not all the same.
 
>Bonus points (Nevada system) YES YES
>
>
>Preference points (Colorado system) NO NO
>
>
>People who apply over and over
>again and don't get drawn
>should have a better chance
>(not a guaranteed chance)than someone
>who has just drawn a
>tag. I am an
>Idaho resident with kids and
>it would sure be nice
>when I put them in
>for a youth hunt and
>they don't draw, that they
>may have a better chance
>next year.
>
>For those that don't understand the
>2 systems-a bonus point system
>simply gives those that have
>been unsuccessful in the past
>more chances for the current
>year. People with "0"
>points (drew last year) may
>have 1 "chance" while someone
>with "5" points (haven't drawn
>for 5 years) may have
>26 chances. People can and
>do draw with "0" points.
>
>
>Preference points mean only the people
>with the most points get
>the tags. If you
>don't have the most you
>don't have a chance.
>
>Points are not all the same.
>

But doesn't that mean that the other 1500 guys that haven't drawn have 26 chances as well? How is that better than those 1500 guys having one chance just like you?
 
Its just giving unsuccessful applicants a better chance. If all 1500 guys haven't drawn for the exact same number of years they would all have the same chance. But they would all have better odds than those that drew before them.

Just to clarify-for some types of hunts the odds don't really change regardless of point system or random. A hunt with 10 tags and 1100 applications really won't be "easier" to draw with points. Once in a lifetime is still once in a lifetime.

However-a hunt with 300 tags and 900 applicants-in theory if you apply for the hunt for 3 years you should draw it. With preference points, you would be guaranteed to draw, which would guarantee someone with less points would not.

With random odds and a 1 year waiting period, someone could draw it every other year while another hunter never draws it.

With Bonus points you simply give the guy that never draws better odds than the lucky guy that always draws, without leaving new guys in the dust.
 
+1 idhunters....I agree 100%. Any argument against longer waiting periods and bonus points must come from folks with an extremely thick skill or draw every year. I've not drawn a tag with chances greater than 70% in my 20 years applying. Several of those hunts had draw odds of 15-30% (not long shots). Not once have I connected. Sure be nice to catch one of those, while the guy in the office seat next to me has drawn 45 deer 3x and 45 bull x2 in the 10 years I've known him.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-18 AT 08:28PM (MST)[p]What do you do with a hunt that has 1900+ applications and 60 tags? Very few antlered hunts in Idaho are in the number scenario that you gave. I'll stick to random draw.
 
Lol, that's the point.....diminishing someone's odds who's already drawn. Not eliminating or starting over, but diminishing there's while increasing others.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-18 AT 09:54PM (MST)[p]Nice. If you are going to insult folks at least get the f)&@ing spelling right. Refer to your above post.
 
I think customweld hits the point on the head. Look at Nevada. Everyone says they love the system. When you are dealing with anything under 50 tags the Nevada system does nothing for you if you look at the overall odds. On a late mule deer tag in Nevada, you go from .01 percent chance with 1 point, to 1.0 percent change with 15 points. The tag numbers are the key. Idaho doesn't give enough tags for NR for any preference system to make any sense. Wyoming works for deer and antelope due to the sheer number of tags. However, look at WY elk. Max points gets you 5 percent chance on the best hunts, before the point system they were 1 to 3 percent. A point system in Idaho will turn into a once in a lifetime system for NR if you get in on the first year, if not on the first year, the rest of your life you are not drawing. Leave ID the way it is, however I fear that the money made for a point system will eventually win out. Watch Colorado, this year they let everyone in for cheap, next year and the year after points will go up to a point that the average guy can't afford them. It happened in Wyoming on sheep, moose and goat points. Another example is Oregon doubling the cost of the NR license after folks had invested years of point accruing. Don't fix what is not broken.

Rich
 
What people forget is all the downsides to the certainty of a point system, which is more people want to apply with a point system and anyone who starts buying points after the system starts is unfairly disadvantaged. Pretty soon you've got a Utah or Nevada situation where you might draw a great tag but that'll be a once or twice in a lifetime experience. Idaho hunters have consistently rejected the idea of hunting infrequently for trophies.

Also, you need almost all zones to be general or they suck. Utah again is an example of terrible general hunts. Nevada and company don't even try and it's all draw.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-18 AT 00:25AM (MST)[p]People should state resident or non-resident...I'm a life time resident 50.5 years.

Several people have commented that they don't like points but suggest longer waiting periods, or only apply for one animal. All ways to increase drawing odds for your hunts that would decrease opportunity for other hunters. Same argument used against points isn't it?

Also, is Idaho talking about increasing waiting periods between draws or limiting you to only applying for 1 antlered animal? I would rather have bonus points (not preference points).

But hey, what the heck do I know.......

Edited to add my conspiracy theory:

Every so often Idaho Fish and Game floats the idea of "points". They aren't specific as to bonus or preference or what, they just say we're thinking about a point system. Then we hunters have a giant p!$$!ng match with each other about what system is best and forget about the below average game management being provided by IDFG.

Just a thought.
 
no point system! My kids won't ever get the opportunities to hunt like we all have had if we move to a point system. I suspect that many of the people who want a point system don't have children. Once you fall behind in the points game it becomes very difficult to pull a tag regardless of bonus vs preference.

I have on average 8 points in multiple states. In many cases where I think I should be able to draw a tag next year, point creep bites me in the butt. Particularly Wyoming. The number of people getting into the points game is unreal and what used to take 1 point for an average hunt is now taking 3-5 in many cases. So now you have to pay special prices to increase odds...in most cases.

The only thing nice about points is that you can to some degree plan your hunts if you are applying in multiple states. For that reason, I could maybe see a points system as a non-resident but not as a resident.
 
The main purpose of points systems is to get more people and more money in to the draws, especially nonresidens, without giving out anything that costs anything in return, I bet that over the same period of time, odds are you draw less tags once they start a points system due to the additional applications.

BTW, NV?s draw system sucks. We used to draw tags somewhat frequently before points started and it's very rarely in recent years. I don't want to debate hypothetical:)
 
Kind of funny that every year we seem to have this debate. I am firmly against any kind of points system in Idaho. I am a resident who has applied every year since I could and in 16 years I only drew 2 "gimme" elk tags. Then 3 years in a row drew some solid tags. I understand that it could be 16 more years before I draw something good again but that's ok. It also seems like a lot of people that are complaining are applying for hunts with less than 5% draw odds. Points aren't really going to help you draw those tags for 20+ years, and in the meantime put our kids and grandkids behind the curve because they weren't old enough to apply for points when the whole game started. Just look at Utah, heck even Wyoming, the max points guys will be chasing those units forever leaving anyone who missed a year or didn't get in at the start behind. Those max point units don't give any random tags either. I understand Idaho's system isn't perfect, but at least there's always that chance to pull a quality tag. NO POINTS.
 
As I said I'm against pts but want longer "3" waiting periods for successful applicants. I don't think F&G will go for this though, they want the $150 app fee from NRs as quick as possible. They might not get any NR $ if your a NR sitting on the sidelines waiting.
 
>I thought I'd share my thoughts
>on what became the unintended
>major topic of another recent
>thread - points versus random
>versus hybrid. I used
>to be very vocal against
>Idaho's draw system and folks
>didn't hesitate to call me
>out on it. I was
>sure I was right. Over
>time I've formed a different
>opinion which I think is
>somewhat different than most. I've
>learned this: if you apply
>in multiple states like I
>do, then it's far more
>important to look at your
>applications as a whole instead
>of individual applications and individual
>states because in the end
>we all just want to
>hunt. With that said,
>isn't it pretty awesome to
>have a variety of systems?
>Some systems ensure you are
>rewarded with points for loyalty
>recognizing that it might take
>several years to have a
>chance at drawing, while others
>give you a small shot
>at a random tag with
>points, and others are pure
>random. I appreciate that.
>It makes sense to me.
>Imagine a scenario where you
>have applied in 8 or
>10 states and haven't drawn
>a single tag. Sure, over
>the counter options are great
>and available, but let's face
>it, most of us prefer
>limited entry tags. Then Idaho
>applications roll around near the
>end of application season. Instead
>of knowing for absolute sure
>that you won't draw a
>tag because you don't have
>the necessary points, you have
>a glimmer of hope.
>Arguments for and against various
>draw systems make sense to
>me, but I've gained an
>appreciation for all of them.
>

Just wanted to say that I do appreciate your point of view. I am a NR for WY draws. That tag is secondary to my IDAHO plans as a NR resident. I can appreciate that not only different systems but the timing aspect of the various draws are either beneficial or detrimental as well. Imagine if all systems applied and drew the exact same date. Imagine if the General hunts all fell in the same time and all the Limited were either strictly early or late, but same dates. How would that screw up everyone applying in multiple states.

What I know is the BP/PP systems all create more of their own problem by pushing more and more people into the system and it is the creep that kills most of your arguments for BP/PP, because the math becomes geometric and not either the static, or even linear as most propose. System generated creep is above and beyond the ever increasing demand that creates creep in all systems.

I believe Idaho is seeing increased app's from NR's as they flush through other states and realize the tags they relied on regularly in WY, Colo, etc. are less regular. I also think this is a legit reason for any state to provide significant preference to their residents. That and the taxes paid. Sure tourism is important, but you won't see that top the list anytime soon as an argument.
 
Good analysis BPK.
I am completely against any point system being implemented here in Idaho and wish other states would do away with them, at least for their residents.
Another issue is the cost of playing the point game. Not all of us that enjoy hunting can afford to lay down the cash to stay in the game. I would hate to see the US become like europe where only the elite can afford to hunt.
I used to put in for Nevada as I hunted chukar there on a very regular basis and had to purchase a nonresident license every year anyway. When I returned to Idaho a few years back there was no way I was going to buy the NV license just to build points.

Norkal

"One can take my life but not my faith or my
confidence. I fear none and respect all."
 
I agree with no points as a good option. As a NR that is decent at math, I'm disappointed in myself for getting into the point games in states adjacent to and near Idaho.

I value the Idaho system due to the balance of a random draw, resistance to auction tags, OTC quality and timing of said draw.

For the purpose of full disclosure...yes, I would say that even if I hadn't drawn (2) controlled elk tags in the past 3 years beating 1.8% and 7% odds respectively.
 
Lots of NR opinions on this, that's funny. For US residents we truly value your opinion and your money. Let's be honest...the only reason you prefer random is because you have a chance to draw every other year or every year depending on the tag....Haha get lost...
 
The 'points' debacle reminds one of the immigration problem in the world, or even the situation in California as a state overall.
People sh t in their own beds and then want to move somewhere else to destroy another area and those that reside there.
They simply can't help themselves. Wash, rinse, repeat...
So it goes for many western states' hunting tags. FUBAR.


Thankfully ID tags are capped at 10% for nonresidents.
It's been rehashed many times here and elsewhere that fewer and fewer NR hunters spend money patronizing our great state. They buy their stuff online and spend nothing in this state but tag fees and a fuel fill-up if necessary. There are some good NR guys that come to our state, but overall I won't give most NRs the time of day, 90% are users and takers and offer nothing to our economy.
 
Broom I'd beg to differ, have you seen the lines of Ut white trash lined up at your gas stations in Malad??
 
Thankfully the majority of residents don't want a bonus or preference point system at this time. Hopefully as the state continues to grow that doesn't change but we'll see.
 
I guess the reality is that you have to consider what a person's goal is when it comes to hunting. Does a guy want an opportunity to go on a special hunt with a chance to take a trophy animal? Or is he simply looking for an good chance to put some meat in the freezer? Pretty much, any zone in Idaho offers a "reasonable" chance at doing both, but there are those units which (as some of us remember used to be hunted on a general tag) that provide an exceptional experience.

It's easy to say that this tag has 3% odds, 10% odds or even 25% odds of drawing the tag. But really, what do those odds mean? 3% is 1 hunter out of 33 will draw a tag, 10%, one hunter out of ten will draw, 25%, one in four. Looking at the stats for last year, there were 57 antlered deer tags in the rifle draw. 8 of those tags had better than 1/5 draw odds (but not much better); 11 hunts had odds between 10% and 19% odds of drawing; 11 hunts had odds between 6% and 9% odds of drawing and 21 hunts had 5% or less odds of drawing. And of course, those 21 hunts had reasonable access into a zone where you might expect to find trophy animals. The other zones had either worse access to huntable land or perhaps less desirable trophies which is why fewer people were interested in drawing the tag.

I believe that anyone who hopes to one day draw a decent tag has never really considered how unlikely their chances are of doing that. Let's go middle of the road and take a hunt with 15% odds of drawing. That's basically 1/7 chances of drawing. Take seven pieces of paper, with a different number on each one, assign one number to yourself. Put them in a bag and shake them up, draw one. If it's not your number, put it back in the bag, shake it up and draw one. Repeat this until you number comes up. How many times does it take to draw your number?

Certainly some numbers will be drawn on the first few draws, but most will take many, many more than that to be picked. Now, consider a 1/33 chance. Not likely that any given hunter will draw those zones, especially considering that one's entire hunting career might only be 40 years. Sure, SOMEONE will draw those tags. By choosing no type of preference system to reward longevity in the sport, a hunter is conceding that they will most likely never draw a tag that they would love to have.
As each year passes and more hunters move into this state, more zones will be turned into controlled hunt zones and those that don't will become more crowded. so regardless of what you did 5 or 10 years ago, your chances of doing that again have diminished.

No one wants Colorado's system or even Utah's but why can't a system be designed to increase a person's chances without preventing a new hunter's chances? Nevada offers a small portion of the number of tags that Idaho offers, yet hunters get to hunt the "in demand" hunts much more often than they do Idaho's hunts. Personally, I like Oregon's system. 75% of tags are based on preference points. 25% of the tags are based on random draw which anyone can draw. The 25% of tags are drawn after the regular draw which means those tags will means that those tags will most certainly go to residents as the non-res quotas have been reached in the preference point draw. And there isn't any reason that a different system cannot be designed to allow for any other needs. Factor in a different system for exceptionally high demand tags by making them once in a lifetime tags for instance, eliminate tag transfers which have ever grandma and grandpa applying so they can transfer the tag to a family member and so on. Just by having the dfg considering a hunter's first AND second choice before moving on to the next applicant would be a big improvement.
And lastly, I believe that a state should only consider the opinions of the resident hunters when designing the system. It is my belief that a hunter should live in, pay taxes in and support the economy of the state in order to benefit from those things that the state has to offer.
 
Sorry but a lot of states have tried splitting this pie multiple different ways by creating hybrid draw systems, creating multiple classifications for each species, and all kinds of other options. Out of all of them point creep creates worse odds each year you go further into the system. Keep it random. For the point system fan boys there's plenty of states that offer you crappy draw odds with points to keep you happy.
 
>why can't
>a system be designed to
>increase a person's chances without
>preventing a new hunter's chances?

Math...that's why. To increase one person's odds you have to decrease another's.

Most point systems are basically a reservation of the best tags for the group of people who get in on the base level. As savvy as sportsmen are today with draws and all the draw service companies out there...if Idaho started a point system next year you would have a staggering increase in applicants that would make you dream of the day when a hard tag to draw was 3% odds. Instead of having 100 people put in for 3 tags, you will have 1,000 people applying...such that maybe with 15 or 20 years of points you are finally back to 3% odds.

I think N_Corey summed it up well...if you don't like Idaho's random system - there are at least 8 other western states where you can get in on all the 'benefits' of a point system.
 
Can't have great hunting without the funds to manage it.IMHO, states that don't have point systems in effect for non resi hunters are loosing a lot of revenue.Have tag transfer programs and long waiting periods as well.Heck,why not point transfer programs. That'll keep the kids interested.As far as resident point programs, it should be up to the residents to decide... BH1.
 
Idaho has better hunting than a lot of states and they don't have points so their funding must be adequate without it.
 
I'd bet money they'll raise the price of nonresident tags within the next couple years since they've been selling out and they'll probably raise resident prices as well so those values aren't static either. Everything is easily achievable without the need for any point systems.
 
Your right, these things will happen.But at a price. With nonresi points, game agency's loose nothing..same old "up to 10%" tag numbers..and lots more revenue. BH1
 
To do a points option for nonresidents only they'd have to change the system and set aside 10% or some other number of tags for that system rather than the current up to 10% allocation we have now.
 
NR prices should go up. Montana is over $900 for a general NR elk. By the time you get the points to draw a Wyoming NR general elk it is about the same. Add in the fact that Idaho is the fall back for people when they fail to draw in other states, it is time for a dramatic increase in elk tag prices here.
 
>why can't
>a system be designed to
>increase a person's chances without
>preventing a new hunter's chances?

There is such a system. Its called grow more deer.
 
I am against all point systems for the reasons listed above.

It seems that sooner or later the points systems all will fall on their face with point creep. I wonder how it would look if the points were disposable and or capped at some low number like 2-4. What I mean by disposable is that they are USED and GONE. Say you put in and don't draw, you get one point. Next year you can choose to use that point to effectively double your odds in the draw, but if you do, it is gone. If you choose not use and only enter your one chance and don't draw, then you get another point, thus you have 2 points to use how you see fit in the future. The thing is that once they are used, they are gone; thus no point creep. It just seems like all these point system are destined to fail in their mission at some time in the near future.

Nobody has any more or less "right" to the tags, no matter if they have drawn one previously, if they haven't drawn one in the last 20 years, or if they just finished up hunter ed and this is the first year.
 
>I am against all point systems
>for the reasons listed above.
>
>
>It seems that sooner or later
>the points systems all will
>fall on their face with
>point creep. I wonder
>how it would look if
>the points were disposable and
>or capped at some low
>number like 2-4. What I
>mean by disposable is that
>they are USED and GONE.
>Say you put in and
>don't draw, you get one
>point. Next year you can
>choose to use that point
>to effectively double your odds
>in the draw, but if
>you do, it is gone.
>If you choose not use
>and only enter your one
>chance and don't draw, then
>you get another point, thus
>you have 2 points to
>use how you see fit
>in the future. The thing
>is that once they are
>used, they are gone; thus
>no point creep. It just
>seems like all these point
>system are destined to fail
>in their mission at some
>time in the near future.
>
>
>Nobody has any more or less
>"right" to the tags, no
>matter if they have drawn
>one previously, if they haven't
>drawn one in the last
>20 years, or if they
>just finished up hunter ed
>and this is the first
>year.
Well said. These point systems are nothing more than a legalized Ponzi scheme...great for a while if you get in on the base level, but eventually they fail and everyone loses.
 
Having grown up in Oregon where the points system is used and now being a resident of Idaho I would never want to go back to the points system. I put in for over 10 years for antelope with never drawing. When it came to elk hunts we always ended up either with general season on the coast or Mt Emily spike only hunt. We did get to do some either sex hunts but only every 4-6 years. I only got to go on one mule deer hunt when I was a teenager because the odds of drawing were so poor. That being said everyone in Idaho has the same chance of drawing a good tag. I drew a antelope tag this year and it was the first year I put in for one. Even though I haven't drawn an elk or deer tag yet I still like knowing my odds are the same as the next guys and I wont have to wait at least a decade for a chance at a decent hunt.
 
>I wont
>have to wait at least
>a decade for a chance
>at a decent hunt.

Nope!

And if you spend the time learning places for a few years and scout, the OTC areas can be pretty damn good.
 
> I wont
>have to wait at least
>a decade for a chance
>at a decent hunt.

Get back to us in ten years....I'm betting you still will not have drawn that tag.

As a Non-res of Oregon I have drawn a bow tag for antelope (yes, rifle is much tougher to draw), I have hunted the snake zone four times with rifle for deer and three times for elk. I will probably die before I draw either of those in similar zones on the Idaho side.
 
This means nothing because point system or not, the otc tags are still there. I still say that anyone who chooses the current system has no real interest in drawing any type of quality tag.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-18 AT 08:37AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-18 AT 08:36?AM (MST)

>This means nothing because point system
>or not, the otc tags
>are still there. I still
>say that anyone who chooses
>the current system has no
>real interest in drawing any
>type of quality tag.

This is complete bull crap every state that switches to a point system sees an jump in applicants for the first year.
It's just natural for the casual/occasional applicants to get in on the ground floor and stay in for the Long Haul.
It's also common to start putting your wife/mom/whoever in for points even if she has no interest in hunting because after you draw out and have zero points you can split there points with them and both draw. One tag will go to waste.

This and a few other methods I won't speak of all combine to lower the draw odds for serious guys.
Justin
 
And the whole argument of eliminating new hunters from having a chance doesn't hold water because every time you draw a tag, you lose your points and are on common ground with someone just entering the system. Even then in a system with a 25% no points draw, everyone would have an equal opportunity to draw the best tag in the state.
 
The tags you refer to in Oregon aren't that hard to draw. What tags in Idaho are you putting in for that you refer you'll never draw in a lifetime?
 
>> I wont
>>have to wait at least
>>a decade for a chance
>>at a decent hunt.
>
>Get back to us in ten
>years....I'm betting you still will
>not have drawn that tag.
>
>
>As a Non-res of Oregon I
>have drawn a bow tag
>for antelope (yes, rifle is
>much tougher to draw), I
>have hunted the snake zone
>four times with rifle for
>deer and three times for
>elk. I will probably die
>before I draw either of
>those in similar zones on
>the Idaho side.


BS! In my immediate hunting circle, in the last ten years we have had 15-20 elk tags in hells canyon, more if you count xtra cow tags. Several deer tags as well. This year alone, I will be in on 6 bull tags, 4 cow tags, and 3 deer tags...
 
Actually missalot your whole argument for not eliminating new hunters is invalid. You are arguing that this is the only option to "guarantee" top tier tags. I am 32, was late to the points game in several states. I have 4 points in utah now for deer, elk and antelope. I will die with my points before I can ever cash them in on a Henry Mnt tag or Book Cliffs tag. I didn't get in early in Utah, I by default have a 0% chance of ever drawing a sheep or goat tag, like 0% it isn't going to happen ever. So is it my fault I didn't know to start buying points when I was 12 in other states? My kids who are just about to hunting age will never have a chance to pull quality Utah tags because they are so far behind. Even Wyoming, who does allocate 25% of their tags to a random draw. My kids will never have enough points to draw the top tier tags because #1) it takes max points to draw them #2) in the premier units in wyoming they do not issue random tags. I mean keep telling yourself that this is the only "fair" way. But by switching to a points system we are limiting the next generations opportunity to get in the game with an equal playing field. There are plenty of other states where you can play the points game. Why wouldn't you want the option for a little diversity, the chance every year to pull that magic tag. Take a look at the link below, it is a well written article by a respected hunter that also sheds more light onto the situation.


http://www.themeateater.com/2016/fools-gold-points-systems-offer-false-hope-poorer-odds/
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-19-18 AT 09:50AM (MST)[p]Missalot.
A point system can work for easy to draw hunts as you described but it doesn't work with the majority of hunts in Idaho because the odds are too low and the point creep would be horrific.


40 elk 5tags 550 apps
44 elk 10 tags 550 apps
You do the math on 44 (because its easy) if 7.5 tags go to max points and 2.5 go random you have a less than 1/2 of 1% random chance.
It would take 73 years to get to the guys who are one point behind max.

It just doesn't work!
And if you think this is an extreme example here is a screen shot of the 2017 deer draw odds. Take a look at the draw percentage!
Its clear a point system won't work with these odds!
 
97759screenshot20180719094137chrome.jpg


Justin
 
This has been discussed for years on this forum. I'm surprised there are still people that want a point system in Idaho. We have had years to see how different point systems work in other states. The only winners in point systems are the Game and Fish departments and those who get in on the ground floor. Even those who get in on the ground floor end up loosing in the long run unless there goal was to only get one tag. Unfortunately with point creep, the only winner is the Game and Fish Departments that get to keep hunters "on the hook" who have been building points.
 
>Missalot.
>
>Handle is indicative of his glassing
>ability.
>
>Hence the desire for draw tags.
>

Haha, my issue is I could see a situation where we end up like Utah and all of our OTC opportunities become draws that could take 2-3 years and in the long run we are all spending more and hunting less just for perceived improvements in quality
 
Why would our OTC tags become draws? Most arguments that have been presented involve conjuring up "what if" scenarios that simply don't make sense.
 
No they aren't but they were presented as a rebuttal to the guy who said that as a resident he couldn't draw eastside tags. Regardless, they have essentially the same odds for a non-resident as any tag in Idaho that has +/- 15% success in the draw and as a non-resident of Oregon, I know I will draw those tags about every six years whereas as a resident of Idaho, I may never draw a tag with 15% draw odds.
 
First off, I was never discussing top tier tags. There is no system that will make those tags easier to draw. However, tags that have low teen success rates and up could be drawn by ALL hunters on a reasonable schedule with a point system.
 
There again, this only applies to hunters in search of the best tags in the state. Folks typically use Colorado's system as an example of the worst that can be had, yet I know guys who draw good tags for deer and elk every three or four years and kill plenty of good animals.
 
"In your immediate hunting circle" doesn't count because with every additional hunter the odds of success increase dramatically. state the tags drawn by each guy. If your talking about easy to draw zones for elk that most hunters avoid because of access problems, your success is understandable. And cow tags aren't in the conversation. We are talking about tags for antlered animals that guys actually want.
 
Once again, there isn't a system in the world that would make any hunt with 5 or 10 tags easier to draw. I am speaking only about tags with odds in the low teens and up.
 
>Once again, there isn't a system
>in the world that would
>make any hunt with 5
>or 10 tags easier to
>draw. I am speaking only
>about tags with odds in
>the low teens and up.
>

So you are proposing a point system just for tags with odds in the low teens?
I'll assume not for the time being

In a state like Idaho where the vast majority of tags are otc that leaves poor odds in the majority of draw units not just ones with 5-10 tags (See screenshot) Let's assume we initiate a point system next year. Currently the draw odds for most deer units is below 10%. So after 5-10 years of building points most people will start to see that they are not getting closer because of the point creep in most deer units Then they will start switching to the units with odds in the teens. They will jump into those units year after year causing? Yep point creep!

There are only 2 realistic ways to increase draw odds from where we stand.
First is to make all tags draw effectively making you choose between putting in for your current otc as a draw or a better tag.
I don't wants this.
Second
Increase the waiting period for someone who draws a tag.
I would be for a sliding scale increase from 2-10 year waiting period (depending on draw odds) after drawing a tag.
This effectively increases the odds and the perceived "fairness" without punishing youth for not being able to apply as children/eggs-sperm.
That's what I would like to see.
Justin
 
Utah Res.

Teenager when points began. 44 today. Drawn 1 Limited Entry elk(Manti), and drew an antelope tag this year(Parker archery). 19 moose points.

The ONLY folks points benefit are the first year guys. With 19 moose points there are 400+ dudes ahead of me for 6 tags.

To redraw the Manti I'm 15 years(the Manti is nowhere near a top tier).

My oldest is 12. He will be pushing 30 to draw it. Top tier deer or elk he'll be 40+.

He'll never get to double digit percent chance in moose, goat, sheep, bison.

His 7 yr old brother will be pushing 50 to draw a top tier deer/elk. It is impossible to create hunter retention based on 25-30 year waits.

The point system is what creates so many Utah plates in other states.

The funny thing is when it started no one thought much because deer were OTC, statewide tags. Now general deer tags are 2-3 year waits. Yearly there are guys who are completely shut out. So guess where they go, Idaho and Colorado.

Even further, I heard Corey Jacobsen talking about the statistic study they did that showed points offered no increase in odds.

NO POINTS, EVER


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Completely agree that point systems typically do not offer better odds of drawing a tag.

But saying that the point system is Utah is why so many Utah hunters go out of state is stretching things. Its more of too much demand for a limited resource, especially when talking mule deer. Utah simply has to limit tag numbers, not every resident that wants to hunt can get a tag, it would be too much pressure on the herd. Doesnt matter if there is a point system or not. There is a finite number of tags/opportunity and too many darn people. The same goes in other states where there are too many hunters and not enough tags, those folks often go out of state for more opportunity, and often go to states where there are point systems in place. You mention colorado, yep there is a point system in place for deer, but their herd is much larger than Utahs and can offer more tags, and do it under a points system.

With all that said I'm not really in favor of a true preference point system. I think a combination of points/random tags is a good compromise, so is a bonus point system, and I also highly favor waiting periods after drawing tags in any kind of system. The OIL tags in Idaho are a good example, you draw and harvest you are done forever. Let someone else get a chance at those very limited tags.

>Utah Res.
>
>Teenager when points began. 44
>today. Drawn 1 Limited
>Entry elk(Manti), and drew an
>antelope tag this year(Parker archery).
> 19 moose points.
>
>The ONLY folks points benefit are
>the first year guys.
>With 19 moose points there
>are 400+ dudes ahead of
>me for 6 tags.
>
>To redraw the Manti I'm 15
>years(the Manti is nowhere near
>a top tier).
>
>My oldest is 12. He
>will be pushing 30 to
>draw it. Top tier
>deer or elk he'll be
>40+.
>
>He'll never get to double digit
>percent chance in moose, goat,
>sheep, bison.
>
>His 7 yr old brother will
>be pushing 50 to draw
>a top tier deer/elk.
>It is impossible to create
>hunter retention based on 25-30
>year waits.
>
>The point system is what creates
>so many Utah plates in
>other states.
>
>The funny thing is when it
>started no one thought much
>because deer were OTC, statewide
>tags. Now general deer
>tags are 2-3 year waits.
> Yearly there are guys
>who are completely shut out.
> So guess where they
>go, Idaho and Colorado.
>
>Even further, I heard Corey Jacobsen
>talking about the statistic study
>they did that showed points
>offered no increase in odds.
>
>
>NO POINTS, EVER
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.
 
The part I don't understand is that the current system works yet people have to try and fix what's not broken. If anything all the states that have gone to some form of point system are the broken ones. Leave Idaho Random.
 

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